Backfeeding a Generator to Your House

[Burtonrider10022]

So my uncles friends brother took a shop class once at a community college, and he said that you can just plug your generater in yer house and fire 'er up and it'll work just fine. Why hasn't anyone here thought of this, it seems like a great, cost-saving way to power yer home or trailer!



Here's write up of his set up: Generater Back feedin' Setter Upper

 

[Tribalvision]

yikes... I guess that's why they invented transfer switches...

 

[Buck_nekid]

I was going to point out about killing lineman and such when people don't have a transfer switch. Then I clicked your link... a welder???

 

[snorky18]

I was going to point out about killing lineman and such when people don't have a transfer switch. Then I clicked your link... a welder???

Maybe a gas/diesel powered welder? Some of those serve as generators as well.

Burton, I'm so glad your post was tongue in cheek

 

[shovelhead91701]

I was going to point out about killing lineman and such when people don't have a transfer switch. Then I clicked your link... a welder???

I used to use the 10kw gen set in my miller to power the house all the time when we lost power. That being said, it was run through a transfer switch!

 

[sometoyotaguy]

People get all excited about backfeeding. It can be done safely, but it can be dangerous as well.

 

[Buck_nekid]

Ahh yes, I forgot some also have a generator built in. With the welder I was envisioning him using the ground and stinger to feed the top of the electrical box.

 

[GeorgiaHybrid]

If you throw the mains on a building, how in the hell will a backfeed kill a lineman? A little common sense goes a long ways. This is temporary power and as long as the generator is grounded correctly, the mains are flipped and your use is below the rated output of the generator and you are feeding thru a properly sized breaker, it will be fine until you see the neighbors getting power.

You then turn off the generator, unplug it and flip the mains back on.

Chicken Little will still be alive, the little Dutch boy will still have his finger in the dike and all will be well.

 

[Burtonrider10022]

Maybe a gas/diesel powered welder? Some of those serve as generators as well.

Burton, I'm so glad your post was tongue in cheek

People get all excited about backfeeding. It can be done safely, but it can be dangerous as well.

If you throw the mains on a building, how in the hell will a backfeed kill a lineman? A little common sense goes a long ways. This is temporary power and as long as the generator is grounded correctly, the mains are flipped and your use is below the rated output of the generator and you are feeding thru a properly sized breaker, it will be fine until you see the neighbors getting power.

You then turn off the generator, unplug it and flip the mains back on.

Chicken Little will still be alive, the little Dutch boy will still have his finger in the dike and all will be well.

My personal issue with back-feeding is the dryer outlet approach and leaving the possibility of human error open, and the fact that it CAN cause a fire (dryer outlet). People say that you can kill a linesman, the main can still leak power to the grid from the neutral, etc. Fact is, that's all ********.

An interlock kit is NEC approved, and it uses the exact same breakers as you already have. All you're adding is a hook-up closer to the panel, using proper gauge wiring, and THE EFFING SAFETY PLATE TO ELIMINATE HUMAN ERROR. Interlock kit = back-feeding, and it is 100% legal (unless local regulations state otherwise) and safe because of those two little reasons! That cheap piece of aluminum may not only save your insurance policies, but also very well may save your generators life, a linesman life, or your life.

 

[IndyGarage]

I'm not sure how the guy burned his house down, but I assume he didn't know what he was doing, or had the generator too close to the house.

Where I live now rarely experiences power outages, but before this we lived in a neighborhood that was down in every storm. Several times we were out for 3-5 days and one time nearly two weeks. Bear in mind this is dangerous and may be illegal to do, but in an emergency it will get you by:

I made a 10 gauge extension cord (originally out of Romex, but later on I made it out of flexible cable) which plugs into my 220 volt generator outlet and plugged into a 220 volt outlet in my garage and allowed me to have the generator well away from the house. I pulled the main breaker on the house - essentially disconnecting everything from the main line, and protecting any workers on the line.

I started up the generator and plugged the generator to the 220 outlet and it would power the entire house. Of course my 6,000 watt generator couldn't 't run my whole house at full load, but it can easily run some lights, the refrigerator, the microwave and the furnace blower, so we had heat, lights and food.

The only problem with this setup is keeping gas in the generator and it's really noisy. I put an automotive muffler on my generator and that quieted it down a lot.

 

[Burtonrider10022]

I'm not sure how the guy burned his house down, but I assume he didn't know what he was doing, or had the generator too close to the house.

Where I live now rarely experiences power outages, but before this we lived in a neighborhood that was down in every storm. Several times we were out for 3-5 days and one time nearly two weeks. Bear in mind this is dangerous and may be illegal to do, but in an emergency it will get you by:

I made a 10 gauge extension cord (originally out of Romex, but later on I made it out of flexible cable) which plugs into my 220 volt generator outlet and plugged into a 220 volt outlet in my garage and allowed me to have the generator well away from the house. I pulled the main breaker on the house - essentially disconnecting everything from the main line, and protecting any workers on the line.

I started up the generator and plugged the generator to the 220 outlet and it would power the entire house. Of course my 6,000 watt generator couldn't 't run my whole house at full load, but it can easily run some lights, the refrigerator, the microwave and the furnace blower, so we had heat, lights and food.

The only problem with this setup is keeping gas in the generator and it's really noisy. I put an automotive muffler on my generator and that quieted it down a lot.

Please refer to my post directly above yours.

 

[isaac338]

If you throw the mains on a building, how in the hell will a backfeed kill a lineman? A little common sense goes a long ways. This is temporary power and as long as the generator is grounded correctly, the mains are flipped and your use is below the rated output of the generator and you are feeding thru a properly sized breaker, it will be fine until you see the neighbors getting power.

You then turn off the generator, unplug it and flip the mains back on.

Chicken Little will still be alive, the little Dutch boy will still have his finger in the dike and all will be well.

 

[signcrafter]

If you throw the mains on a building, how in the hell will a backfeed kill a lineman? A little common sense goes a long ways. This is temporary power and as long as the generator is grounded correctly, the mains are flipped and your use is below the rated output of the generator and you are feeding thru a properly sized breaker, it will be fine until you see the neighbors getting power.

You then turn off the generator, unplug it and flip the mains back on.

Chicken Little will still be alive, the little Dutch boy will still have his finger in the dike and all will be well.

Your 100% right but the key part of your post I highlited in red. The problem in situations like mass power outages is people that run out and buy a generator and have no clue about electricity, never wired an outlet in their life. Someone tells them they can just run a cord to the dryer outlet. They do it and don't have that common sense to turn the main off. You and I know that you can safely run the generator to the whole house using the dryer outlet, but there are probably thousands of new generator owners who don't understand that concept, all they know is they want power and the easiest way is to use the dryer outlet. Think of the blitz gas can example. Common sense tells me not to use the can to dump gas on a fire. Not everyone has been blessed with that common sense and have been seriously hurt or killed using the blitz can to dump gas on a fire. Now they sue blitz for their lack of common sense. Same concept that not everyone is created with the same common sense.

 

[IndyGarage]

Please refer to my post directly above yours.

Yup, I understand electricity well.

As you pointed out, running through a transfer switch is still backfeeding, it just ensures that the main is disconnected - which is a good thing.

If you read the comments on the OP article, you find that the guy had a "professional" helping him hook up the welder/generator to his house.

Now I don't know what kind of professional it was, but it sounds like something else went wrong - perhaps they had some flood damage or something that caused a short.

 

[Shadowdog500]

The problem in situations like mass power outages is people that run out and buy a generator and have no clue about electricity, never wired an outlet in their life.

People who run out and buy a generator just for the hurricane apparently don't have a clue about anything.

CNN is putting together a list of the people who died because of hurricane Sandy, with a little blurb on how each person died. The list isn't complete, but there is a definite trend developing.

The number if people they found dead in their house from carbon monoxide poisoning with a generator running either in their house or garage is ridiculously high.

Back to the subject of back feeding. The price of those boxes to hook our house up properly isn't the end of the world. I helped my BIL with one a few years ago and I think it was like $200.

Why play games with the possibility of having the insurance company not covering a fire in your house because you back fed the house. Or risk killing a lineman because your wife or neighbor who isn't as brilliant as you started the generator for your wife because you weren't home.

Chris

 

[superfish]

Another approach:

In my last house I still owned a Motor home with a generator. I was mostly concerned about keeping the furnace running. The generator only had 110v so the water pump was out of the question.

I cut the romex feed to the furnace and installed a plug and socket. Then I could just unplug the furnace and plug it into an extension cord from the MH. I also ran cords for the TV and fridge.

I might do the same thing here but I'll need a gen with 220v out.

 

[shovelhead91701]

I'm not sure how the guy burned his house down, but I assume he didn't know what he was doing, or had the generator too close to the house.


I made a 10 gauge extension cord (originally out of Romex, but later on I made it out of flexible cable) which plugs into my 220 volt generator outlet and plugged into a 220 volt outlet in my garage and allowed me to have the generator well away from the house. I pulled the main breaker on the house - essentially disconnecting everything from the main line, and protecting any workers on the line.

I started up the generator and plugged the generator to the 220 outlet and it would power the entire house. Of course my 6,000 watt generator couldn't 't run my whole house at full load, but it can easily run some lights, the refrigerator, the microwave and the furnace blower, so we had heat, lights and food.

.

I am surprised that you didn't start a fire or melt your wire ...... You used a cable made for 15amps for power transmission on a gen set that was capable of normal output of 25 amps at normal run. Not even considering startup output or load.

 

[Burtonrider10022]

People who run out and buy a generator just for the hurricane apparently don't have a clue about anything.

CNN is putting together a list of the people who died because of hurricane Sandy, with a little blurb on how each person died. The list isn't complete, but there is a definite trend developing.

The number if people they found dead in their house from carbon monoxide poisoning with a generator running either in their house or garage is ridiculously high.

Back to the subject of back feeding. The price of those boxes to hook our house up properly isn't the end of the world. I helped my BIL with one a few years ago and I think it was like $200.

Why play games with the possibility of having the insurance company not covering a fire in your house because you back fed the house. Or risk killing a lineman because your wife or neighbor who isn't as brilliant as you started the generator for your wife because you weren't home.

Chris

This, right here, is EXACTLY my point! Dryer outlet/ghetto hookup CAN be safe, but why risk it? God forbid you get injured or killed and someone else has to turn off your generator there is a chance of a lineman, or several, being killed. Doing it "right" is not that expensive.


Bottom line is, if you can't afford a $200 transfer switch, you probably shouldn't have bought a generator and a home in the first place.

 

[Alchymist]

People get all excited about backfeeding. It can be done safely, but it can be dangerous as well.

If you throw the mains on a building, how in the hell will a backfeed kill a lineman? A little common sense goes a long ways. This is temporary power and as long as the generator is grounded correctly, the mains are flipped and your use is below the rated output of the generator and you are feeding thru a properly sized breaker, it will be fine until you see the neighbors getting power.

You then turn off the generator, unplug it and flip the mains back on.

Chicken Little will still be alive, the little Dutch boy will still have his finger in the dike and all will be well.

I'm not sure how the guy burned his house down, but I assume he didn't know what he was doing, or had the generator too close to the house.

Where I live now rarely experiences power outages, but before this we lived in a neighborhood that was down in every storm. Several times we were out for 3-5 days and one time nearly two weeks. Bear in mind this is dangerous and may be illegal to do, but in an emergency it will get you by:

I made a 10 gauge extension cord (originally out of Romex, but later on I made it out of flexible cable) which plugs into my 220 volt generator outlet and plugged into a 220 volt outlet in my garage and allowed me to have the generator well away from the house. I pulled the main breaker on the house - essentially disconnecting everything from the main line, and protecting any workers on the line.

I started up the generator and plugged the generator to the 220 outlet and it would power the entire house. Of course my 6,000 watt generator couldn't 't run my whole house at full load, but it can easily run some lights, the refrigerator, the microwave and the furnace blower, so we had heat, lights and food.

The only problem with this setup is keeping gas in the generator and it's really noisy. I put an automotive muffler on my generator and that quieted it down a lot.

Yup, I understand electricity well.

As you pointed out, running through a transfer switch is still backfeeding, it just ensures that the main is disconnected - which is a good thing.

If you read the comments on the OP article, you find that the guy had a "professional" helping him hook up the welder/generator to his house.

Now I don't know what kind of professional it was, but it sounds like something else went wrong - perhaps they had some flood damage or something that caused a short.

Here we go again!

"As you pointed out, running through a transfer switch is still backfeeding, it just ensures that the main is disconnected - which is a good thing".

Not even close - it's an "alternate feed", not a "backfeed".

As to the rest:

 

[Stuart in MN]

Backfeeding is done all the time without incident, but that doesn't mean it can be done safely. The only safe way to use a generator is with a failsafe device that positively disconnects the main at the same time - a transfer switch, a mechanical interlock or something similar.

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

Ahh yes, I forgot some also have a generator built in. With the welder I was envisioning him using the ground and stinger to feed the top of the electrical box.

Do you have video of that?

Does the audio start out, "Let me finish my beer and watch this!"?

 

[TheShrine]

Geeez..

 

[IndyGarage]

Backfeeding is done all the time without incident, but that doesn't mean it can be done safely. The only safe way to use a generator is with a failsafe device that positively disconnects the main at the same time - a transfer switch, a mechanical interlock or something similar.

As pointed out several times in this thread, the problem is not the safety with backfeeding, the problem is the potential to do it wrong - which is eliminated with the transfer switch.

However saying a generator without a transfer is unsafe is like saying a tractor without a rollover bar isn't safe, so should be discarded. Ask the dozens of Ford tractor owners whether their tractor is useful.

There are two problems with most residential transfer switches - first, most limit the number of circuits, so you have to choose what you want to keep running. The whole purpose of a distribution system in a house is to allow you to put electricity where you want it.

But the bigger problem is homes don't have them. When you have a disaster, then people need "alternate" power right then - not after they can track down an electrician to install a switch.

Perhaps they should code electrical boxes with a built in "alternate power" input source and a built in transfer - that would be the safest route.

 

[Alchymist]

Geeez..

Not trying to be a spoilsport, but those interlocks are not legal in many locations. While they may be NEC approved, many local jurisdictions will not accept them. Reason for this is if the front panel is removed, the interlock protection is lost.

 

[Gareth68]

So, would a power company rep have a fit if you had a breaker lock on the main when back feeding? It couldn't get accidentally switched back on.

Working in manufacturing most of my life, lockout procedures are pretty standard.

 

[IndyGarage]

Geeez..

I've never seen this - wow - how ingenious and simple...

 

[Alchymist]

So, would a power company rep have a fit if you had a breaker lock on the main when back feeding? It couldn't get accidentally switched back on.

Working in manufacturing most of my life, lockout procedures are pretty standard.

Lets just say that if there is a power outage, and linemen see your house lit up, and they look and find an unacceptable hookup, they very well might cut the feed to the house, and it will not get hooked up until the proper equipment is installed, and it is guaranteed to be the last thing on their to do list. POCOs take a dim view of improper hookup, and this is becoming policy with more and more of them.

 

[IndyGarage]

Not trying to be a spoilsport, but those interlocks are not legal in many locations. While they may be NEC approved, many local jurisdictions will not accept them. Reason for this is if the front panel is removed, the interlock protection is lost.

That's pretty bad logic on the part of those jurisdictions. - the panel is the first line of safety... Of course if you take the safety systems off, it can be unsafe.

My suspicion is that they are not legal because they make it pretty easy.

 

[nehog]

... You used a cable made for 15amps for power transmission on a gen set ...

I though he used a 10 AWG cable, and that's rated a lot more than 15 amps.

 

[TheShrine]

Not trying to be a spoilsport, but those interlocks are not legal in many locations. While they may be NEC approved, many local jurisdictions will not accept them. Reason for this is if the front panel is removed, the interlock protection is lost.

and

 

[NUTTSGT]

I though he used a 10 AWG cable, and that's rated a lot more than 15 amps.

I caught that too.

 

[dirttracker18]

I though he used a 10 AWG cable, and that's rated a lot more than 15 amps.

That's what I was thinking.

10 gauge is rated to 30 amps, not 15.

 

[Vince1955]

For those new generator owners that have minimal electrical understanding, they should simply disconnect the home refer or freezer and plug into a 12 AWG short extension cord. The current water heater and furnace systems usually have mutiple circuits connected to blowers, electronic igniters and fans - eliminating any direct connections. Small portable electric radiant (oil filled) heaters may be the safest method of keeping warm. The lack of electricity will continue for several weeks in some of the NY/NJ areas hit hardest by Sandy. Generators have to be turned off before going to sleep. Safety steps must be used for all.

 

[mikester]

I got a price on having a transfer switch installed in the beginning of the summer. This is something that Ive wanted for a few years. We were having some work done on the house over the summer. The other thing that was in the plan was a larger breaker panel. I have a 150 amp service with 30 spaces and theyre all full. It was either a larger panel or a 200 amp service installed. I wanted it all done at once. Needless to say it didnt get done.
Now we get hit with the big storm. Ive got a pretty large freezer in the basement thats full and the usual fridge/freezer in the kitchen thats also pretty packed. I have a 7500 Generac portable. I shut the main off and backfed the house through the 220 outlet for the compressor in the detached garage. I lost power on Monday night and got it back 24 hours later. I ran the generator for about 5 hours on Tuesday. Ran it for about an hour so everyone could take a hot shower. Then I ran it again so the freezers would be OK.
Now the story gets good.... Im outside the garage and my son comes out and tells me our neighbor just got his power back. He asks me to turn the breaker back on so he can get back into all his electronics. Im in the middle of cleaning the floormats from my truck. I tell him what to do (hes almost 23 so this is no big deal) and he goes back on to the deck and into the house. All of a sudden I hear a hum coming from the generator (which was still running). It was only a couple of seconds. I yank the plug out of the generator. I thought the generator was toast because the house was backfeeding it at that point. All because of a brainfart. I totally forgot to unplug the cord and shut the generator off when my son walked away. This would have been an expensive screwup. I started the generator back up and plugged a heat gun and a drill into it and its still working. Moral to the story. There will be a transfer switch installed in my house by the end of this month.

 

[Alchymist]

and

Now that right there is some purty valuable info!

 

[racingtadpole]

The transfer switch also serves to prevent the two sources of AC meeting each other. If the generator is not sync'd on the same part of the waveform as the incoming mains supply the results are pretty spectacular. Its possible a large generator can be pulled off its mounts and hurled across a room before starting a fire.

 

[jake00]

Robert Johnson runs his business, Johnson Tree Service

Holy ****, this guy uses chainsaws????

 

[GeorgiaHybrid]

Guys, I probably helped 15 people or more wire their generator to their house and explained to them what needed to be done once the power came back on. I then taped a sign over the main switch in big bold letters to disconnect the generator BEFORE turning on the mains. A lot of people in this area had generators for camping and temp power but were NOT prepared for the tornados that came thru here last year.

If any one of you can stand there and tell a man who has lost 3/4 of his house, has his family in the basement and is trying to keep what food he has from spoiling so he can feed his family, that back feeding his house from a generator is not proper and that he needs to buy a transfer swith, you are a lot more heartless than I am. I helped a bunch of people check circuits and removed the breakers for parts of their houses that were no longer there.

We then wired what we could to keep them going. We pulled microwaves out of yards (didn't know where they came from) and wired them to get hot meals. Two people found refrigerators that were not theirs inside what was left of their home (with food still inside) that were plugged in and used. Others still had all or most of their home but still needed to use the microwave and to keep food fresh.

It took days to cut into all of my neighbors and help them out. They didn't need a transfer switch, they needed help. If you have time to get one and are prepared for it, fine but don't harp on someone that is trying to save what they have as long as they do so safely.

 

[Alchymist]

If any one of you can stand there and tell a man who has lost 3/4 of his house, has his family in the basement and is trying to keep what food he has from spoiling so he can feed his family, that back feeding his house from a generator is not proper and that he needs to buy a transfer swith, you are a lot more heartless than I am. I helped a bunch of people check circuits and removed the breakers for parts of their houses that were no longer there.

It took days to cut into all of my neighbors and help them out. They didn't need a transfer switch, they needed help. If you have time to get one and are prepared for it, fine but don't harp on someone that is trying to save what they have as long as they do so safely.

Most of us are NOT trying to tell anyone this - what we are pointing out is what is the right course to take and what the hazards are. Some of the stuff that has been advocated is just downright dangerous. The salient point is -be prepared BEFORE disaster strikes, and then do it right. The problem with the "temporary" rigging is that eventually someone somewhere will have an "Oh $hit" moment.

 

[kursplat]

So, would a power company rep have a fit if you had a breaker lock on the main when back feeding? It couldn't get accidentally switched back on.

whenever we were on a large outage and found someone with the geni running it was a judgment call. is it hooked up safe and seperated from our stuff and do they understand what to do when city power comes back on. if not...

vvvvvvvvvv

Lets just say that if there is a power outage, and linemen see your house lit up, and they look and find an unacceptable hookup, they very well might cut the feed to the house, and it will not get hooked up until the proper equipment is installed, and it is guaranteed to be the last thing on their to do list...