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Why I buy American Tools

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lowbucktruck

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Foothills, Northern California
In this area its not so much the 12-20 age group but the generation or two before who have been telling their kids they are too good to work for a living (factory or skilled labor) and they should get a 4 year degree. Well guess what.. now there is no one with the skills or desire to have the skills to work. This did not happen over night, but with several generations pushing to this point. They need help and guidance from someone with a clue.

This has been a problem for awhile now... the decline of the "work ethic" among our younger generations. The willingness to put in a hard day's work and the pride in workmanship is not as prevalent today as it was 20-30 years ago. There are some exceptions, of course. I see young guys in their 20's that put in the long hours. Part of this decline is due to the middle-class parents that put the idea into their kids' heads that a blue-collar job was beneath them, that they deserved better (like a wall-street job!). Alot of our younger generation value their free time more than money and would rather socialize than work overtime (work-life balance) This trend has been observed, noted in studies and written about.

http://blogs.attask.com/blog/strate...rk-life-balance-and-the-millennial-generation

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...by-pressures-of-work-worldwide-122581838.html

http://www.fastcompany.com/1792349/...-access-smartphone-options-over-salary-report
 
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buffalobill

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No, NW (North Western) the trucking company that when it went out of business, the drivers were on the news 24/7 in Denver wondering what the thousands of them would do without the $90k-$130k/yr income they were used to, all those foreclosures and bankruptcies were big news, mormal people who made the decision to go on strike and the evil corporation decided they couldnt afford to stay in business.

ok, i'm a teamster, i KNOW what those guys made, maybe the top couple of guys on a BIG barns seniority list cracked 90k, but it wasn't the union that pushed NATIONSWAY, not northwest, like you called them, into bankruptcy.

the company tried expanding (badly, it didn't work and used up all their money) into the east. I know where their barn used to be in buffalo, and I know drivers that worked there for a couple of years until they shut down.

btw, only the road drivers of the time could HOPE to get to 90k. show me where ANY nationsway drivers made 130k a year?! your nuts, i know what they were making then, how are you going to run THAT ILLEGAL? you would have to work 2 logbooks every week, all year! you tellin me that all those drivers out in denver did that? yeah right, the DOT would have been waiting outside the gates drooling. not to mention any city driver there, at that time would have been making right around 19-20 an hour, so what, you might bring home 50k?


you tried to mention Yellow and Roadway too, how is that the unions fault? yellow came in with money to buy roadway after roadway didn't voluntarily merge, and did all this right at the point of a huge recession? the union has went to bat FOR the company twice, they are on a 15% pay cut, and their pensions have been cut for 5 years.

sorry, thats stupid management with what is happening with them.. why did they want to merge in 2008, who would do that? it would be like Ford wanting to merge with Chrysler in 2008. they directly compete with each other, and if one of the companies gets the freight, it means that the other one didn't.

it sure was the workers fault, always the workers, expecting a decent job, how arrogant of them!
 

mmack66

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Kansas City, MO
No , but when we stop exporting intellectual prowess we can stop exporting the jobs that come from them. I've never seen a Nobel loriate build his own machines or facilities, when was the last time you saw a physicist swing a hammer.

I live in the oil fields, we have more $20-$50/hr jobs than anywhere and no one to fill them, no 8th drade drop outs, we also have no geologists, no metalurgists, no chemists, and no engineers to make the $250k-$500k/yr jobs, they are all in Kuwait, Saudi, Qatar, even in the North Sea where it pays better. The jobs are here, there is so little unemployment where I live hotel maids make $14/hr and McDonalds starts out at $12.50/hr and they cant find workers.

Guess which jobs were open first, Guess which jobs couldnt be filled first, with the exportation of education, and the emphasis on white collar corporate jobs, there is no one left to do the Joe jobs (funny how here geologist and pipe-fitter and McDonalds crew member and hotel maid are all Joe jobs (as in the average Joe)). We have college graduates everyday leaving to go elsewhere to work while the ones who stay here become lawyers and government workers, I live in a county of 12000 people and there is only one gynocologist, no cardiac or respratory or any other kind of specialists, medical care isnt unaffordable, it's unavailable.

This is what exporting education does.

How are we exporting jobs that physically have to be performed in the United States? Someone from another country coming here to get an education and then going back home isn't an exportation of education.

If there are $50/hour and $500K/year jobs sitting vacant, seems like someone is doing a bad job of getting the word out.
 

buffalobill

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You do realize that only about 10-12% of the American work force is unionized, on top of that its getting smaller everyday. Eventually corporate America will have to start taking responsibility for poorly run companies and a failing economy. I get it... It's easy to blame unions.

NW? Do you mean Norfolk and Western Railway the one that merged with Southern to form Norfolk and Southern of which employs me (unionized) and is making record profits, Year after year?



its getting pathetic how its always somehow the workers fault, even though only 7% of the private workforce is union. if there were no unions left, who would we blame, workers who expect pay? volunteering will be all the rage, just to be patriotic capitalists, we need to help our bosses out, right? cant make as much profit when we have to pay these damned workers!
 

O_M_Jeep

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How did the NW drivers make $130k/yr, the same way Yellow did, almost, Yellow had us tow a truck to a driver and bring back a truck that was out of fuel, why was it out of fuel? because they werent paid to add an extra 20 gal before leaving and management said they could make the trip on what was left, no pay, no pump, and why should they, they got paid extremely well to sit on the side of the road and wait, NW got paid for both drivers to sit and wait for the wrecker becaus there was a headlight out and the drivers were allowed to say "its not safe to bring it in with a headlight out", so they were paid while I got $175/hr to go get the truck and take one that had both lights working, I have a very low opinion of union workers because I have watched them time and time again "work the system" to get every penny they can, I worked for a union delivery company in Denver for a few months, its sad when your co-workers threaten you because you have a work ethic and try to do a good job, of course when your told by the shop stewart "when you dont make management order you to do that, you make the rest of us who refuse to do it look bad". Every experiance Ive ever personaly had with unions has shown me the worst side of the people who take advantage of them.

Instead of unions, if you want better pay, do a better job, thats how it use to work.
 

O_M_Jeep

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How are we exporting jobs that physically have to be performed in the United States? Someone from another country coming here to get an education and then going back home isn't an exportation of education.

If there are $50/hour and $500K/year jobs sitting vacant, seems like someone is doing a bad job of getting the word out.

We arent exporting the jobs, they are there, we are exporting the people who have the education to do the job, and when the geologist and chemist and metalurgist dont exist, neither does the pipe-fitter, driller, or roughnecks jobs.
 

dandan111

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I think you are blowing smoke on the wage thing 130k? My dada was a teamster my twin brother is a teamster car hauler. I wish he could make that much. Mc donalds? Come on.
 

buffalobill

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How did the NW drivers make $130k/yr, the same way Yellow did, almost, Yellow had us tow a truck to a driver and bring back a truck that was out of fuel, why was it out of fuel? because they werent paid to add an extra 20 gal before leaving and management said they could make the trip on what was left, no pay, no pump, and why should they, they got paid extremely well to sit on the side of the road and wait, NW got paid for both drivers to sit and wait for the wrecker becaus there was a headlight out and the drivers were allowed to say "its not safe to bring it in with a headlight out", so they were paid while I got $175/hr to go get the truck and take one that had both lights working, I have a very low opinion of union workers because I have watched them time and time again "work the system" to get every penny they can, I worked for a union delivery company in Denver for a few months, its sad when your co-workers threaten you because you have a work ethic and try to do a good job, of course when your told by the shop stewart "when you dont make management order you to do that, you make the rest of us who refuse to do it look bad". Every experiance Ive ever personaly had with unions has shown me the worst side of the people who take advantage of them.

Instead of unions, if you want better pay, do a better job, thats how it use to work.

thats not how it used to work, thats your 8th grade education showing thru. if you would have kept learning, you would have found out your attitude didn't get anyone anywhere, and they started forming unions because they were being taken advantage of, and they were sick of getting the shaft.

btw, how is a yellow driver supposed to disobey a DIRECT ORDER from management, to fuel a truck? if management fucks up, its their fault, and you can't argue with them, the guy would have been fired on the spot if he fueled the truck after management told him not to.

want to keep digging? one of my best friends runs line haul for YRC as they are now called, and you wouldn't answer me on the Yellow Roadway debacle. keep retreating to your "work ethic" arguement, even though you just told me that management screwed themselves over on a power trip.

I'm not holding my breath on you showing me anyone who ACTUALLY made 130k on line haul pay either. you can't make that NOW, with higher pay, how were you making it 15 years ago at a much lower rate?
 

buffalobill

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I think you are blowing smoke on the wage thing 130k? My dada was a teamster my twin brother is a teamster car hauler. I wish he could make that much. Mc donalds? Come on.

glad to hear you dad and brother have decent jobs, and that you live in the same reality as everyone else.
 

richfinn

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Leeds, Yorkshire, England
Britain went through this kind of industrial decline in the 70s/80s particularly in manufacturing/Textiles/Coal mining. I think its kind of natural as the population becomes better educated and wants the better things in life for their kids.

Dont despair too much though as strange things can happen when communities band together and work to make things happen (dont wait for your government to do anything).

There are lots of old industrial sites in Britain that after becoming derelict were given a new lease of life and became better places to live than they were.

Here is one example, Saltaire village is now a thriving little town in the North, it hosts museums/cafes/affordable housing and a good mix of business ventures (including PACE
the cable TV equipment company) and a great Brewery. This place was on its **** 20 years ago after the mill closed.

http://www.saltairevillage.info/yz_images_0001.html
 

buffalobill

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what makes people think that making 50-80k a year is "overpaid"? gas is 4 bucks a gallon, new cars are over 20, new trucks are over 30, everything is more expensive, except, the american worker. how are you going to pay for things? how are you going to retire? I know everyone always talks "live within your means", but at the average workers wages around buffalo, I see a life in an apartment, with a used foreign car, working until social security, IF you are lucky.
 

reyna14

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...when was the last time you saw a physicist swing a hammer.

Right here, buddy. :beer:

I have a physics degree and work with my hands testing hydraulic equipment for aerospace. I also work on my bikes, my cars, and anything I can get my hands on. I can use a mill, a lathe, quite good at sports, and I race motorcycles.

This isn't to say that I represent a majority of the physics community. I remember one guy at school bringing a football to school for us to throw around during breaks. Wow, talk about pathetic. I think I was the only person who could chuck a spiral. :lol_hitti
 

oldtools

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Europe seems to be doing just fine ??????? So, your as ignorant about European economies as you are about unions. The trouble with unions is not about wages, its about accountability and holding a bad employee resonsible for doing a bad job, but if you like, yes, wages are a problem too, or are you as ignorant to the concept of inflation as you are to the rest of the world economic situation?


FYI, Italy is in bankruptcy, and they are better off than a lot of other European contries who's governments cant make payrolls or debts, how would like to pay $7/gal for gasoline (in the cheaper countries) and have no food on the shelves because they cant pay the people who grow it (US) enough to ship it there.

My biggest gripe with the union is accountability. I had to deal with union for many years. No many how many times or badly they f**k up, they never get punished and they keep on doing it without giving a **** because they know they won't loose their job. They are lazy and their productivity are rediculously low.

I think chipmunk need to go back to high school and finish his degree.
 

Hiball

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My biggest gripe with the union is accountability. I had to deal with union for many years. No many how many times or badly they f**k up, they never get punished and they keep on doing it without giving a **** because they know they won't loose their job. They are lazy and their productivity are rediculously low.

I think chipmunk need to go back to high school and finish his degree.

I can tell you with Great Confidence, That 1980's Union Argument is NO LONGER PLAUSIBLE in the Railroad Industry. I heard all the Same Stories when i hired out also, "You Cant Get Fired" blah blah.. Im here to tell you, If you continue to violate Company policy, Show Poor attendance/Mark off Patterns you will get fired and there isnt a 3rd party Mediation board who wont side with the Company if the Documentation is in place. I would hate to even make a guess, How many People have been fired since i started Railroading. I expect the same can be said for any Transportation Union, There is Too much Liability in todays world and Companies arent gonna stand for it.
 

Pantsfall_McFixit

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This has been a problem for awhile now... the decline of the "work ethic" among our younger generations. The willingness to put in a hard day's work and the pride in workmanship is not as prevalent today as it was 20-30 years ago. There are some exceptions, of course. I see young guys in their 20's that put in the long hours. Part of this decline is due to the middle-class parents that put the idea into their kids' heads that a blue-collar job was beneath them, that they deserved better (like a wall-street job!). Alot of our younger generation value their free time more than money and would rather socialize than work overtime (work-life balance) This trend has been observed, noted in studies and written about.

http://blogs.attask.com/blog/strate...rk-life-balance-and-the-millennial-generation

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...by-pressures-of-work-worldwide-122581838.html

http://www.fastcompany.com/1792349/...-access-smartphone-options-over-salary-report

As a member of the younger generation, I agree that this is a problem, but doesn't describe all of us. I work hard and believe in doing a great job. People call me when they can't fix something and want it done right.
 

03protege

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I am in school majoring in OSHE and I have one professor who worked at a paper plant in Arkansas that was unionized. She told me at one point the company had to add a rule against sleeping on the job (unbelievable that a rule like that needs to be added) and the union made them add an exception that as long as you were holding a bible you were not considered asleep.

I still am not sure I believe her as that to me is just uncomprehensible, but some other older students who have been in industry said they have heard of similar things.
 

FlyBy

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I've been into the Bethlehem plant in NY a couple times for photo work. It's been a couple years and I'd like to go back, I got some great shots framed in my house from there and I'd like to see what I can get with my new equipment.
 
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NewShockerGuy

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Greed is bad. I still can't understand how you have companies failing yet the CEO's are making million + dollar bonuses..? How is this not apualing to them?

Lots of good points brought up here. I agree I will spend money on American products when I can and DO look for them, but I refuse to buy something that is American made if it's a *************. Just because it says "Made in USA" doesn't mean you can give me **** and I will pay top dollar for it... for those people that do support that shame on them and the companies that are pulling it off. Though I am not old (30), I have seen when American products were of great quality when I was young.. hell my dad still has his American tools and guess what they are still working fine 30 years later. Why I don't like is the greed... Don't listen to "WallStreet" when it is said "Greed is good"... I can understand a point that it's good but honestly greed in every aspect of the word brings out the worst and destroys things.... I don't want to get into a ******* match or debate with everyone but just as others have noted, this didn't happen over night and there are MANY parties to blame. What we should be looking at now going forward is how we fix it. I'm very fortunate in my life, I am humble and I like quality things. It appears now that as a whole we settle on the cheapest items and then when they break we just buy new... I don't like that. I would rather spend money on an item knowing it will LAST. I take pride in knowing that an American made a product that I am using. I take pride that if it is more expensive I HOPE that the money I am paying for that item is going to that employee and not to the corp greedy assholes that are pulling in millions of dollars while the people that are actually DOING the work making the stuff in the factories and plants can barely make ends meet... that is what I dislike about corp america. I feel like there is no real quick answer or solution to the problems we face and have in the future and that saddens me. I wasn't alive when things were booming that some of you remember or have been through, so I can only imagine how you feel seeing everything taking a dump everywhere, it's quite sad.

People are always opposed to change. Change is good but you have to be ahead of the curve. I have seen too often with american companies with specific things that I am into NOT change while the market changes and rather than adapting and moving forward they think that people will still buy their products simply because of name or where they are being manufactured ... some of those companies are no longer here simply because they fell to adapt. I think as a whole America needs to rethink many things.

It saddens me thinking where our country is going to be when I am 20 years older honestly. Because it only seems to be going down hill :-(

-Nigel
 

camarotoolman

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tHEY REOPEN A STEEL MILL IN YOUNGSTOWN,right there beside i-80, $12 an hour, if you say the work union your fired. Also to blame, way over payed union works, corps. not modernizing, osha, epa, clean air act, over payed management. New cor seems to be doing good in SC.
 

bobemmerich

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I'm not sure what the hell happened, Greed, Unions, EPA, Taxes..Who knows. I do know this:
I grew up in Bridgeport, Ct. Yes, that IS where all those Bridgeport mill machines were built. There was also GE Wire and Cable, Remington Arms, Beaded Chain, Hubbel Electric Products, and a ton of others I can't really think of right now. Some of these factories dated back 100-200 years and were the size of a small city in itself. The city and surrounding suburbs thrived and jobs were plentiful. Then the unions s-l-o-w-l-y went on strike in all of the aforementioned factories, and low and behold no more factories. The factories closed the doors and jobs were shipped slowly overseas.
Now, I'm not bashing unions in any way, shape or form, but I think that at the time the decisions being made were definitely not in the interest of the "Working man/Woman". They were good paying jobs with decent benefits. Granted, dirty, hard work. But it paid the bills and provided a livelyhood for an entire city and most of the surrounding areas.
Probably the same scenario in most of "Industrialized America". I've seen it happen and it *****. Hopefully someday it will begin a resurgence. Are we slowly becoming a 3rd world country. :sad:
 
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kngelv

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This whole "blame the union" thing is ridiculous. Someone always pull out some story of a worker who kept their job after doing something inexcusable. They then hold this up as representative of all unions and union workers. That's like complaining about all police because of the Rodney King beatng, and our brave soldiers because of the idiots in Abu Ghraib. I work in an American auto plant, and trust me - everyone is concerned about quality. If you screw up bad enough you will definitely lose your job. When you read about some deadbeat whose job was saved it usually comes about because the union lets management off the hook on a few legitimate safety issues. I disagree with this policy and thankfully it is rare nowadays. There is always more to the story than the headlines would lead you to believe. It's amazing how indignation at "greedy union workers" is the excuse used to justify buying foreign. The ones shouting the loudest have no problem buying stuff made by exploited workers, little kids, slave/prison labor etc. Of course they can't see their own greed in that. Just last week over a hundred workers were killed in a Bangladesh sweatshop so Wal-Mart could sell idiots six dollar t-shirts.

James
 

buffalobill

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I'm not sure what the hell happened, Greed, Unions, EPA, Taxes..Who knows. I do know this:
I grew up in Bridgeport, Ct. Yes, that IS where all those Bridgeport mill machines were built. There was also GE Wire and Cable, Remington Arms, Beaded Chain, Hubbel Electric Products, and a ton of others I can't really think of right now. Some of these factories dated back 100-200 years and were the size of a small city in itself. The city and surrounding suburbs thrived and jobs were plentiful. Then the unions s-l-o-w-l-y went on strike in all of the aforementioned factories, and low and behold no more factories. The factories closed the doors and jobs were shipped slowly overseas.
Now, I'm not bashing unions in any way, shape or form, but I think that at the time the decisions being made were definitely not in the interest of the "Working man/Woman". They were good paying jobs with decent benefits. Granted, dirty, hard work. But it paid the bills and provided a livelyhood for an entire city and most of the surrounding areas.
Probably the same scenario in most of "Industrialized America". I've seen it happen and it *****. Hopefully someday it will begin a resurgence. Are we slowly becoming a 3rd world country. :sad:



well its been sped along by free trade agreements that make it easy for a company to say "take a 50% cut in pay or your job is going to mexico". all too often the guys will take a cut, the company ends up screwing them over and going to mexico or some other place anyway.

if you are screwed either way, why not strike? why not take a swing at the guy who is going to screw you right out of your job?
 

buffalobill

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This whole "blame the union" thing is ridiculous. Someone always pull out some story of a worker who kept their job after doing something inexcusable. They then hold this up as representative of all unions and union workers. That's like complaining about all police because of the Rodney King beatng, and our brave soldiers because of the idiots in Abu Ghraib. I work in an American auto plant, and trust me - everyone is concerned about quality. If you screw up bad enough you will definitely lose your job. When you read about some deadbeat whose job was saved it usually comes about because the union lets management off the hook on a few legitimate safety issues. I disagree with this policy and thankfully it is rare nowadays. There is always more to the story than the headlines would lead you to believe. It's amazing how indignation at "greedy union workers" is the excuse used to justify buying foreign. The ones shouting the loudest have no problem buying stuff made by exploited workers, little kids, slave/prison labor etc. Of course they can't see their own greed in that. Just last week over a hundred workers were killed in a Bangladesh sweatshop so Wal-Mart could sell idiots six dollar t-shirts.

James

good points. everyone i've met who has been some big time union basher is usually a low paid loudmouth idiot at a crappy job. I think its usually jealousy, but hey, its their fault they didn't get their ged, and now they are sweeping up at restaurants for min wage.
 

joecon

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a couple of things about the things discust in this thread. All thoughs good
asembleline job are going to go away though automation the only reson they
whent overseas is that the wages were so low it was cheaper tham buying
the new machines as some as the locals demand higher wages the manufactorer
will invest in the new tech. and the factorys will come back buy not the jobs.
look at cnc mechines or the new didgiitaly controled ones.they mean fewer
less skilled machinists.Also a lot of things that the uions take credit for
are the result of Henry Ford weekends 8hour days He did long before the
unions got in to the ford plants.I don't want to bash the new genaration
but my exsperiance with them is they have no interest in learning anything.
I don'n know if my gen. was any diferanct but it's what I see.
 

3xpendable

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We should stop trading with country's that do not share our rules. American company's can not compet with slave labor. They can not compet when held to higher environmental laws. If we want to help the earth we should not support trade with a county that does not feel the same way and by supporting trade with them we are just as bad as them. Now I know I'll get welll you won't have your iPad to post this with. Well I'm ok with that. Mine was a gift but I think company's will make adjustments to get the amercan buyers back by cleaning up or moving to a fair trading ground to trade with the US. Now I don't have no fancy argument to back my rant this is just my thoughts

But all the same. GOD BLESS AMERICA!
 

bobemmerich

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well its been sped along by free trade agreements that make it easy for a company to say "take a 50% cut in pay or your job is going to mexico". all too often the guys will take a cut, the company ends up screwing them over and going to mexico or some other place anyway.

if you are screwed either way, why not strike? why not take a swing at the guy who is going to screw you right out of your job?

True. Greed is a HUGE part. CEO's and "major" shareholders want a bigger slice of the pot. BS! Lets get back to basics and start making stuff here again. After all, how the hell do those CEO's think people are going to buy their company's products if they have no jobs?
As I stated, I'm no union basher. The Teamsters did ok by me when I worked for UPS. I just think at the time, it should have been different.
 

dandan111

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The major problem according to the manufacturing I work for is the tax credits that's received in foreign countries.
Our company maintains its largest footprint here but has expanded to new countries such as Puerto Rico and Ireland. Tax breaks are great,labor is cheaper and the product is going to be sold over sea anyways. I guess I'm lucky in that fact I live close to the world head quarters. According to our management we could take huge pay cuts and it would still be cheaper to manufacture with the tax advantage over sea.- damn government
 

nanofrog

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But no one can deny that during our US history from the early 1900s until today, this country has flipped from having unchecked capitalists' power to unchecked government power.
Although I can understand where the sentiment is coming from, I don't see the facts actually supporting the "gov't is to blame" mentality.

I say this due to the amount of funds numerous corporations have poured into lobbyists and other financial incentives (i.e. lucrative jobs and speaking engagements once they leave office, ...). Essentially, they've bought our government for decades. It's in the billions now, and has grown every year since the early '80's.

Think of all the Free Trade Agreements rather than fair trade that's allowed for this. Think of the demonization of unions (few bad apples held up as the norm, and causing corporations to go broke when in reality they were posting record profits) that were used to get legislation that weakened Unions, coziness of say the oil and gas industry with the Dept. of Interior inspectors (hint: Deep Water Horizon), the Citizens United ruling by the US Supreme Court (no campaign donation limits), ....

Buying enough politicians have given them "behind the scenes" control over US policy and law they've never had previously. They still retain control this way, but have a lower degree of responsibility/culpability in the public's perception.

Not to say these politicians don't have any culpability, as they're the ones that sold out afterall. But once bought, they're not really calling the shots that create US policy, whether it be economic, foreign, ...

And in corporate outsourcing/exportation of the industrial base, wages have either stagnated or been reduced from previous levels, while the cost of living has continued to rise overall. Not good for the domestic market, as at some point, there won't be any disposable income in any but the top 1% income bracket (lucky if they can cover their basic necessities).

No , but when we stop exporting intellectual prowess we can stop exporting the jobs that come from them.
Even when the intellectual personnel exist in the US, most of those jobs have already been exported.

Just look at the electronics industry. Barely any is still made in the US, and what is (military, industrial, and medical), is looking to go. Plenty of engineers in the US, they just don't want to pay them remotely what they're worth, as they can get them cheaper overseas.

Even Boeing is looking to manufacture their aircraft in China.

This has been a problem for awhile now... the decline of the "work ethic" among our younger generations. The willingness to put in a hard day's work and the pride in workmanship is not as prevalent today as it was 20-30 years ago.
Keep in mind though, those kids were raised by parents who had blue collar jobs (machinists, tool & die makers, auto workers, canning workers, ...), that worked hard and were screwed over by the companies they were working for during the time they were still raising those kids.

So it's not unexpected that those parents taught their kids that manual labor, even skilled, wasn't going to get them anywhere in life. So they put the concept of "Go to college" into their kids instead. It's not a wonder really that they abhor manual labor of any kind.

Now my dad did teach me how to do various forms of manual labor, and I still do them (actually working on a building now for a family member), but I don't do that as a day job. But due to what I saw both he and my mom go through, I went to college and became an engineer.

Only to experience the "Great Outsourcing", and go through the same **** as my parents.

well its been sped along by free trade agreements that make it easy for a company to say "take a 50% cut in pay or your job is going to Mexico". all too often the guys will take a cut, the company ends up screwing them over and going to Mexico or some other place anyway.
This is what I notice. Even happens with professionals, so it's not limited to what most would think of as blue collar positions.

True. Greed is a HUGE part. CEO's and "major" shareholders want a bigger slice of the pot. BS! Lets get back to basics and start making stuff here again. After all, how the hell do those CEO's think people are going to buy their company's products if they have no jobs?
As I stated, I'm no union basher. The Teamsters did ok by me when I worked for UPS. I just think at the time, it should have been different.
No reason to come back en mass though as things currently are.

Here and there, a few companies are beginning to in-source, but those instances were financially motivated.

Generally speaking, I don't see this happening without a financial incentive, such as implementing tariffs, or better yet, penalties for overseas manufacturing and close the tax loopholes that are currently incentives for them to continue with the outsourcing models they're currently using.
 

bdamico

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The major problem according to the manufacturing I work for is the tax credits that's received in foreign countries.
Our company maintains its largest footprint here but has expanded to new countries such as Puerto Rico and Ireland.

:eyecrazy::eyecrazy::eyecrazy::headscrat:wtf:
 

dandan111

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Don't get it? That's what we were told in our plant meeting. I work for a orthopedic manufacturing plant. It may sound confusing but the USA wants USA orthopedic implants. Keeps our plant safe for now.
 

brickG-man

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Unions can take a lot of the blame, sorry, but unions create greedy lazy workers with a sense of entitlement who "create" products that are mediocre at best, if you cant be fired for doing a bad job you stop caring about what doing a good job means.

Look at NW, Yellow, Roadway, Detroit in general, the old rail lines, now google "union tries to enter subaru plant in Kentucky" or whatever it is to read how the UAW destroyed American auto manufacturing.

In the days of the robber-barons yes, unions were needed to protect workers from bad conditions, thats true, today you look at places like UPS and Boeing and see what unions do for American companies.

My wife was a supervisor for UPS for 5 years, this is a true story, a package car driver, in a hurry, forged a customers signature so she could leave a package of pharmaceuticals on the front porch, it was the fronch porch of a day care center, drugs left out of sight for some toddler to find, the union saved her job, threatened action if she was fired, their reason for keeping her?? "Well, she only did it once".

You take away accountability, for the workers, for the bosses, for the owners and what you get is precisely what we have, high profit margins for low standard products.

I was born in 1968, I grew up on Air Force bases in Europe, I watched my parents buy American made cars, and I listened to them try to figure out how to get to work when those brand new cars broke down usualy within weeks and again months after buying them, I learned growing up that "new cars always break down, thats why they have warrantees", I learned that Audi, BMW, Mercedes and other taxi-cabs of my youth were miles away more reliable, I learned that loyalty to a brand is fine, letting that loyalty cost you more money is dumb.

I wonder how many of you realise that you value American made tools considerably more, infinitly more than the guy who makes them and depends on them directly for a living, when you buy a $125 Snap-On ratchet you look at it like Excaliber, the 8th grade drop out who made it looks at it like another ******* ratchet and then he looks at the clock.

I hate to tell you but those Audi's BMW's and Mercedes' were Union made, maybe not in the US but Europe has a higher Union density % than the US does.

Do you really think that many of the business owners of today are that far away from being a robber-baron? The ratio of CEO compensation vs plant worker is 475-1 in the US compared to 12-1 in very healthy and prosperous Germany.

Lastly, I have been a Union Bricklayer/Stonemason for 38 years and THERE IS NO LAZINESS ON THE JOB!!! The only job security you have is your skills and work ethic which are taught to you in Apprentice School, which is run by the Union. If you don't produce you are down the road. There is no protection for those that don't want to work. The Union negotiates good wages, health benefits and a pension to allow you to retire with some dignity. If you still think that Union workers are lazy and feel entitled, I invite you to visit one of our job sites. That is a hell of a blanket statement, along with being extremely offensive, that the Union creates greedy lazy workers!
 

brickG-man

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Messages
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good points. everyone i've met who has been some big time union basher is usually a low paid loudmouth idiot at a crappy job. I think its usually jealousy, but hey, its their fault they didn't get their ged, and now they are sweeping up at restaurants for min wage.

Agreed. My experience has been that much of it is jealousy.
 

mmack66

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Kansas City, MO
only when they have thier teeth in and leave the grandkids home.

(you learn the first time not to go to strip clubs in Wyoming unless you like 50 year olds with stretchmarks and bullet wounds and surgery scars)

They would probably do better if they left their teeth at home as well.
 

brickG-man

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Messages
134
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Chicagoland
This whole "blame the union" thing is ridiculous. Someone always pull out some story of a worker who kept their job after doing something inexcusable. They then hold this up as representative of all unions and union workers. That's like complaining about all police because of the Rodney King beatng, and our brave soldiers because of the idiots in Abu Ghraib. I work in an American auto plant, and trust me - everyone is concerned about quality. If you screw up bad enough you will definitely lose your job. When you read about some deadbeat whose job was saved it usually comes about because the union lets management off the hook on a few legitimate safety issues. I disagree with this policy and thankfully it is rare nowadays. There is always more to the story than the headlines would lead you to believe. It's amazing how indignation at "greedy union workers" is the excuse used to justify buying foreign. The ones shouting the loudest have no problem buying stuff made by exploited workers, little kids, slave/prison labor etc. Of course they can't see their own greed in that. Just last week over a hundred workers were killed in a Bangladesh sweatshop so Wal-Mart could sell idiots six dollar t-shirts.

James

Excellent post! :+1:
 

mmack66

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Although I can understand where the sentiment is coming from, I don't see the facts actually supporting the "gov't is to blame" mentality.

I say this due to the amount of funds numerous corporations have poured into lobbyists and other financial incentives (i.e. lucrative jobs and speaking engagements once they leave office, ...). Essentially, they've bought our government for decades. It's in the billions now, and has grown every year since the early '80's.

Think of all the Free Trade Agreements rather than fair trade that's allowed for this. Think of the demonization of unions (few bad apples held up as the norm, and causing corporations to go broke when in reality they were posting record profits) that were used to get legislation that weakened Unions, coziness of say the oil and gas industry with the Dept. of Interior inspectors (hint: Deep Water Horizon), the Citizens United ruling by the US Supreme Court (no campaign donation limits), ....

Buying enough politicians have given them "behind the scenes" control over US policy and law they've never had previously. They still retain control this way, but have a lower degree of responsibility/culpability in the public's perception.

Not to say these politicians don't have any culpability, as they're the ones that sold out afterall. But once bought, they're not really calling the shots that create US policy, whether it be economic, foreign, ...

You just laid out the facts why the government is to blame, and you don't understand why people feel that way? :dunno:
 

ezover

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Messages
2,412
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3rd rock from the sun
I am in school majoring in OSHE and I have one professor who worked at a paper plant in Arkansas that was unionized. She told me at one point the company had to add a rule against sleeping on the job (unbelievable that a rule like that needs to be added) and the union made them add an exception that as long as you were holding a bible you were not considered asleep.

I still am not sure I believe her as that to me is just uncomprehensible, but some other older students who have been in industry said they have heard of similar things.

it's all in how it is persented, my contract reads, (a shorted version)

the employer shall not discharge or suspend any employee without just cause, but with respect to discharge or suspension, the employer shall give at least 1 warning notice of the complaint against such employee to the employee, in writing.
except that no warning notice need to be given to an employee before he is discharged if the cause for such discharge involves serious misconduct by the employee, including but not limited to, dishonesty, drunkenness, recklessness resulting in
serious accident while on duty, insubordination, weapons at work, fighting, sleeping, or for violation of company rules which call for immediate discharge
.

this is no different then a employee handbook given out at non union shops.
 
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