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Why I buy American Tools

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Chipmunk

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I’m back after several hours and I can see the current has decidedly changed to one of pro union. When I was arguing the pro union position this afternoon the union haters were out for my hide.

What has changed? It’s obvious to me the anti-union crowd this afternoon was either on the night shift or unemployed and holding a grudge against union members.

Tonight union members are off duty and here to set the record straight.

Regarding that stuff I read about Henry Ford instituting progressive change before ford was unionized, that’s true. But his motivation was not because he was progressive but rather because he was trying to buy his workers off from joining the union.
 
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Chipmunk

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I know a woman who’s supposed husband left her stranded at the alter. (he was the president of a small local union of bricklayers) The next day she became violently anti-union and on a daily basis repeats the same antidotal examples of so-called union abuse as I’ve heard here.

The fact that she has never had a job outside the home doesn’t bother her, she knows all about unions and is an expert on union contracts. Kind of makes me wonder how the guys at NASA can ever get a rocket off the ground, they are all 100% union members, or the Doctors at Beth Israel, or the City of Hope Medical Center, or the Scientist at the Bureau of National Standards or the artists at the Federal Bureau of Engraving. Who want’s to claim that all these people became union members because they wanted a job where they could be lazy, sloppy, sleep on the job, come in late/leave early?

Usually when I hear anti-union talk it’s coming from some one with another axe to grind. My brother in law hates unions because he hates seniority, he thinks he should be able to get to the top on day one.
 

buffalobill

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a couple of things about the things discust in this thread. All thoughs good
asembleline job are going to go away though automation the only reson they
whent overseas is that the wages were so low it was cheaper tham buying
the new machines as some as the locals demand higher wages the manufactorer
will invest in the new tech. and the factorys will come back buy not the jobs.
look at cnc mechines or the new didgiitaly controled ones.they mean fewer
less skilled machinists.Also a lot of things that the uions take credit for
are the result of Henry Ford weekends 8hour days He did long before the
unions got in to the ford plants.I don't want to bash the new genaration
but my exsperiance with them is they have no interest in learning anything.
I don'n know if my gen. was any diferanct but it's what I see.

no, henry ford DID NOT give his workers weekends, or 8 hour days, history forgets that he had "ford service" as a beat down crew for anyone who didn't behave exactly as henry ford wanted. henry ford was nuts, and that is something that is swept under the rug in most history books.
 

buffalobill

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the op said why i buy American tools,if this becomes a what do you think of unions thread,maybe someone can post what tool companies do and dont have unions.

last i knew, snap on is uaw, sk USED to be teamsters, but is not anymore because of the previous owners running it into the ground with their lack of marketing or new products. not sure about wright, proto, mac, matco, etc.


I also know that Channellock pliers are made in the usa, not too far from me in Meadville Penn, by steelworkers.
 

Chipmunk

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no, henry ford DID NOT give his workers weekends, or 8 hour days, history forgets that he had "ford service" as a beat down crew for anyone who didn't behave exactly as henry ford wanted. henry ford was nuts, and that is something that is swept under the rug in most history books.


Exactly, also Henry Ford’s fascination with Adolf Hitler and the Nazi’s is also generally avoided when talking about the history of Henry Ford. Some of his writings about Jews would make some KKK members blush.
 

Chipmunk

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last i knew, snap on is uaw, sk USED to be teamsters, but is not anymore because of the previous owners running it into the ground with their lack of marketing or new products. not sure about wright, proto, mac, matco, etc.


I also know that Channellock pliers are made in the usa, not too far from me in Meadville Penn, by steelworkers.

Snap-On is represented by the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers at their plant in Algona Iowa (tool storage) and at the Headquarters plant in Kenosha. I think the plant in Johnson City is Auto workers but not sure also unsure about the plant in Canada. Once there was a plant somewhere on the east coast that was also represented by the auto workers.
 

buffalobill

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I’m back after several hours and I can see the current has decidedly changed to one of pro union. When I was arguing the pro union position this afternoon the union haters were out for my hide.

What has changed? It’s obvious to me the anti-union crowd this afternoon was either on the night shift or unemployed and holding a grudge against union members.

Tonight union members are off duty and here to set the record straight.

Regarding that stuff I read about Henry Ford instituting progressive change before ford was unionized, that’s true. But his motivation was not because he was progressive but rather because he was trying to buy his workers off from joining the union.

yep, i'm sick of getting bashed by idiots who think 15 an hour is a "great job".

Henry Ford didn't pay his workers well to buy them off, he did it to keep them in line. I have books on it, you were not allowed to talk in the plants, you were not allowed to even SMILE. "ford service", his goon squad, beat people up at random for fun. even into the late 1970's, the management team at the big 3 plants had a "master dial" where they could crank up the speed of the assembly line. guys got killed because they wanted to crank out another 10 or 15 cars an hour. somebody got hurt on a "speedup", if you shut the line down, management would walk over the hurt guy and start it right back up, it didn't even matter how the guy was hurt. My father watched a guy get crushed between two train cars, he was alive long enough to get his wife in there to say goodbye, they pulled the cars apart, he spilled all over the floor and died instantly.

these guys used to get paid well because the job was hard. I have delivered to auto plants plenty of times, these jobs are not the cakewalk that others want you to believe they are...
 

buffalobill

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Exactly, also Henry Ford’s fascination with Adolf Hitler and the Nazi’s is also generally avoided when talking about the history of Henry Ford. Some of his writings about Jews would make some KKK members blush.

exactly. if you like ford cars, cool, but anyone who turns a blind eye to henry fords "problems", is off his rocker. from what i have read, he almost had a nervous breakdown after he learned that his workers wanted a union, and didn't want to be beaten down by "ford service" anymore. crazy, not wanting to be beaten for talking to your co worker, or having the crazy privalege of SMILING at work!
 
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Conductor562

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Ok guys, home from my UNION job and ready to go! I have to say I'm a bit surprised by the level of union bashing going on. How can middle class Americans be against the only body in this country who is advocating the middle class? The health of the nation has long been dependent upon the state of the middle class. If you cared to notice you would observe that as the strength of the labor unions has diminished so has the stability of the middle class. Corporations have long scapegoated the unions for the poor decisions of the top management. Hostess raked in a healthy $2,000,000,000+ profit in 2011. Top management gave themselves raises ranging from 100-300% and they're suddenly bankrupt because the union workers making less than $20 hr. refuse to take ANOTHER cut in pay and the pension they've worked their whole life for? GM spent at least 20 years putting on a clinic on how to run a seemingly "to big to fail" company into the ground by doing dumb **** like flying the CEO from Seattle to Detroit and back EVERY DAY in a company provided jet, ignoring market trends and consumer demand, completely ignoring the quality standards used by foreign makers, and putting out the same cars under a dozen marquees, and when they fail? It's those UAW bastards that are to blame. So your boss gives himself a 300% raise and then comes to you and asks you to take a $4 hr. cut in pay and give up part of your pension as a result. You're 50 years old, have 2 kids in college, and your car is on it's last leg. How many of you are going to throw up your hand and volunteer for the cut? NOT A GOD DAMNED ONE OF YOU! Corporations are ruthless. If they could get by with paying you $2 hr. they'd do it. If you are a middle class American and make a decent wage in a non-union job it's only because somewhere a union has set a precedent to which they must remain competitive. If you believe the smear campaign put on by big business about how awful unions are you're a company tool! The kind of dip **** that allows big business to erode the working man for the sole benefit of the 1% is the kind of dumb *** that is to thank for the current state we're in. You can't afford a $100 USA ratchet? Many people can't. However, there are lots of quality USA made ratchets offered by professional brands like Proto and SK for half that or less, but since the most expensive ratchet on the market is out of reach you go right for the import. That's like saying "if I can't afford a Corvette Z06 I'll just get a KIA". I work on the Railroad and they invented ******, unfair, labor practices. You've heard the term "I got railroaded"? well I'm here to tell you boys, THERES SOMETHING TO IT! Most of you can only imagine the terrible things I've seen these bastards do. I've seen people given 15 days off for not coming to a complete stop before the reach in their pocket for their keys. I've seen a man with his leg cut off at the hip because the railroad forced a switchman on a job in a plant which he'd never been and then charged the guy that got his leg cut off with a rule violation for not refusing to go. I could go on and on with horror stories about the things the railroad has done to good people. Am I to believe this is the union's fault? The EPA was a good thing in the beginning. They cleaned up my area after decades of irresponsible practices by the many chemical companies in the Kanawha valley. There were 17 superfund sites in a 30 mile radius and the impact was tremendous. They forced companies to be responsible and stop shitting on the people to save a dollar. Now they're nothing more than a bureau activist hell bent on pursuing the agenda of the environmental extremist. This post could go on for hours but you get my drift. The biggest laugh I've had was reading about how buying Chinese junk is so great for the American economy :lol: That's brilliance in it's purist form!
 

Perrorojo

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Yes,Warsaw perro

I live in Winona Lake. I had a good friend that was an engineer with DePuy. She took a transfer to Wisconscin. A few years ago she was worried that we (USA) would become nothing more than a quality control and inspection country with all the production coming from overseas. She said they had looked into sourcing parts from China and found that even if only 50% passed inspection the company would still be profitable. Based on what I know from the RV industy, I would guess she wasn't far off.

I can't ever imagine that people would ever tolerate a foreign made Hip of Knee. Cars and wrenches and sneakers maybe, but when it's a bodypart, nope.
 

buffalobill

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Ok guys, home from my UNION job and ready to go! I have to say I'm a bit surprised by the level of union bashing going on. How can middle class Americans be against the only body in this country who is advocating the middle class? The health of the nation has long been dependent upon the state of the middle class. If you cared to notice you would observe that as the strength of the labor unions has diminished so has the stability of the middle class. Corporations have long scapegoated the unions for the poor decisions of the top management. Hostess raked in a healthy $2,000,000,000+ profit in 2011. Top management gave themselves raises ranging from 100-300% and they're suddenly bankrupt because the union workers making less than $20 hr. refuse to take ANOTHER cut in pay and the pension they've worked their whole life for? GM spent at least 20 years putting on a clinic on how to run a seemingly "to big to fail" company into the ground by doing dumb **** like flying the CEO from Seattle to Detroit and back EVERY DAY in a company provided jet, ignoring market trends and consumer demand, completely ignoring the quality standards used by foreign makers, and putting out the same cars under a dozen marquees, and when they fail? It's those UAW bastards that are to blame. So your boss gives himself a 300% raise and then comes to you and asks you to take a $4 hr. cut in pay and give up part of your pension as a result. You're 50 years old, have 2 kids in college, and your car is on it's last leg. How many of you are going to throw up your hand and volunteer for the cut? NOT A GOD DAMNED ONE OF YOU! Corporations are ruthless. If they could get by with paying you $2 hr. they'd do it. If you are a middle class American and make a decent wage in a non-union job it's only because somewhere a union has set a precedent to which they must remain competitive. If you believe the smear campaign put on by big business about how awful unions are you're a company tool! The kind of dip **** that allows big business to erode the working man for the sole benefit of the 1% is the kind of dumb *** that is to thank for the current state we're in. You can't afford a $100 USA ratchet? Many people can't. However, there are lots of quality USA made ratchets offered by professional brands like Proto and SK for half that or less, but since the most expensive ratchet on the market is out of reach you go right for the import. That's like saying "if I can't afford a Corvette Z06 I'll just get a KIA". I work on the Railroad and they invented ******, unfair, labor practices. You've heard the term "I got railroaded"? well I'm here to tell you boys, THERES SOMETHING TO IT! Most of you can only imagine the terrible things I've seen these bastards do. I've seen people given 15 days off for not coming to a complete stop before the reach in their pocket for their keys. I've seen a man with his leg cut off at the hip because the railroad forced a switchman on a job in a plant which he'd never been and then charged the guy that got his leg cut off with a rule violation for not refusing to go. I could go on and on with horror stories about the things the railroad has done to good people. Am I to believe this is the union's fault? The EPA was a good thing in the beginning. They cleaned up my area after decades of irresponsible practices by the many chemical companies in the Kanawha valley. There were 17 superfund sites in a 30 mile radius and the impact was tremendous. They forced companies to be responsible and stop shitting on the people to save a dollar. Now they're nothing more than a bureau activist hell bent on pursuing the agenda of the environmental extremist. This post could go on for hours but you get my drift. The biggest laugh I've had was reading about how buying Chinese junk is so great for the American economy :lol: That's brilliance in it's purist form!

if you are ever around buffalo, the first 10 beers are on me, from a fellow brother.......amen to your entire post.
 

Dieselbutterfly

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Hey diesel what's the fight the good fight club?

it is a gj social club,with the intent of tracking things like customer service,tools marked made in USA but are not.people can post any complaints,or compliments of tool companies,remember the snap on ratchet debate.all the people that said oh its no big deal that made in USA is not on them,they are still made here.well turns out the internals were not.the point is the ceo announced snap on would be putting the made in USA stamp back,why?because people like us bitched enough and took a stand( it was not out of kindness)so this club will be an attempt to give the people who care,an ability to focus information in a constructive way.please join and help make a difference
 
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dandan111

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I got at least another 20 years to go. I hope American doctors don't decide to use china orthopedics. It's going to be a roller coaster ride. I got a brother at DePuy,I'm over at Zimmer.
Hope your RV job is still good I know it's been hard time up there.
 

Hiball

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You've heard the term "I got railroaded"? well I'm here to tell you boys, THERES SOMETHING TO IT! Most of you can only imagine the terrible things I've seen these bastards do. I've seen people given 15 days off for not coming to a complete stop before the reach in their pocket for their keys. I've seen a man with his leg cut off at the hip because the railroad forced a switchman on a job in a plant which he'd never been and then charged the guy that got his leg cut off with a rule violation for not refusing to go.

Pshh.. You should try working for NS, We invented the rule book... It's unfortunate that a fellow brother lost his leg, but I suspect there is more to that story.

In BRCF I trust...
 
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Perrorojo

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I got at least another 20 years to go. I hope American doctors don't decide to use china orthopedics. It's going to be a roller coaster ride. I got a brother at DePuy,I'm over at Zimmer.
Hope your RV job is still good I know it's been hard time up there.

RV has come back to about 75% of what it was in '06. I'm at a division of Dutchmen and we are busy. We just had our trade show and are up 50% from last year.

Our industry lost 275k jobs when you count suppliers, dealers and manufactures. We went from 3500 to 600 in about 6 months. We have about 1500 now.

If I can make it 7-10 more years I'll be done. :rocker:
 

NWphotog

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what are you talking about? those jobs were NOT 50 cent an hour jobs when they were here, they were real, middle class jobs, that helped out the economy more than multiple low wage jobs. mom gets to stay at home when dad makes REAL money and has good benefits.

You said that perfectly. They weren't50 cent an hour jobs. But the world doesn't stand static. They would not pay any where near what the did when they went away. Maybe not .50, maybe $1.50 or $2.00. You gonna sign up? How about your neighbor? How about your kid?
 

AV tinker er

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I am new here but just want to offer my two cents. The reason why America was a manufacturing powerhouse when our fathers and grandfathers were working was the fact that the competition was still pulling itself out of the rubble of World War 2. Europe was a pile of rocks after a half a century of fighting, dictatorships, and economic collapses. Japan, the only other modern country at the time, had been reduced to ashes also. America remained largely untouched so everyone turned to us for their goods. Exports where high, we were fat, dumb and happy. We were the world’s only source for production. Many companies failed to see other countries were catching up and failed to act on the changing market.
To think that we will be a manufacturing powerhouse again in the sense that we were decades ago is “regressive” thinking. We are actually ramping up manufacturing in this country more than ever but not in the sense we have lived in. Robots are taking the place of humans, able to work faster and more accurately. This is progressive thinking. We need to be the next powerhouse and technology is the key to bringing us back to the top.
During the last few years as many screamed for work there were millions of jobs that went unfilled in this country. High paying jobs. Why did these jobs go unfiled? No one was qualified. The days were dad goes off to the factory and installs the same widget every day for decades are over. The jobs that are still going unfilled are more highly specialized; jobs like technicians to repair the robots that took their job on the assembly line.
The problem I see is that not one wants to study to take these jobs. People want things to go back to the way they were and that is not going to happen. People expect that the training they received twenty years ago will be sufficient enough to last a working lifetime. In today’s world that is not true for many. So many will argue about the problems but won’t face reality and see that they themselves are part of the problem.
This is not meant to be directed at anyone on here, I am simply stating my observations, take them for what they are worth.
 
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Conductor562

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Pshh.. You should try working for NS, We invented the rule book... It's unfortunate that a fellow brother lost his leg, but I suspect there is more to that story.

In BRCF I trust...

CSX was a decent company to work for until Tony Ingram and David Brown came along and I'm sure you know their tactics well. As for the buddy who lost his leg. There was a new Switchman fresh out of school who marked up on the yard XB because it was all he stood for. They called him for a job that switches a local plant and its pretty much considered the most difficult job in our district (lost of interplants, close clearances, spots, etc.). He told the caller he wasn't qualified and she went nuts. She told him if he wasn't qualified she would pull him off the list and so forth and being brand new he didn't know any better. She told him she'd show him refusing work and he'd be charged and being brand new he didn't know any better. The Foreman took his time and tried to show him what to do and told him just to work the switch. He sent a cut out past the switch and told the green horn to set them over in the adjacent track. The Foreman was in between the cut they were getting ready to bunch up and the Switchman double lined the switch sending the train back on top of him. He was in between the 5th and 6th car in the cut to be picked up and the coupling knocked him down causing the car to run over his leg cutting it off at the hip. It was so close to his stomach they couldn't even fit him with a prosthetic. They charged the legless Foreman for not refusing to work with an unqualified man which wasn't even a rule. The railroad always took the position that you didn't need to be qualified in the yard because they didn't want to have to pay anyone to qualify. The charge was basically a ploy to try to bully the Foreman into taking their settlement offer because they knew if it went to trial they were toast. We had the tape of the Switchman telling them he wasn't qualified and the caller bullying him. Every time someone told them they weren't qualified on something the Trainmaster would order them to go and threaten them with insubordination if they refused. They created the mess to start with. When they'd hire people they'd train them on 1 sub only to try and control who worked where and cut down on seniority moves, then when the guy fell out the bottom at the only location he was qualified they'd blow him off and intimidate him into marking up somewhere without being qualified to save the qualifying pay and fatten their bonus. It rarely worked because the UNION wouldn't let it but in a situation like this where the guy was still on his probationary period they'd just do whatever the Trainmaster told them to do. I guess by the logic in some of these pathetic post the Switchman should have immediately resigned and paid all the Foremans medical and future care expenses out of his pocket in the name of the Claim agents bonus and the and the railroads safety goals.
 

sleepjeep

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[/QUOTE]
Regarding that stuff I read about Henry Ford instituting progressive change before ford was unionized, that’s true. But his motivation was not because he was progressive but rather because he was trying to buy his workers off from joining the union.[/QUOTE]

Henry Ford also had to offer fair wages to keep a high turnover rate in his factories down. He also realized that he had to have a middle class to afford the cars he was producing.
 
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Conductor562

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Why is it my job to teach someone how to use tools? I am paying for my education, they pay for theirs.
My instructor has been telling us from day one not to explain things to people, or give away our education. If they want advice 20 bucks for ten min.

The old heads that taught me my craft are long retired. I still call them from time to time and I regard them as great friends. They taught me the tricks of the trade and kept me from getting in trouble. I was still a kid when I starting moving trains and I'd have never made it without them. Charging a young man who thought enough of you to seek your advise on the job is about as shameful thing as I can think of. He'll regard you as a ******** ******* until the day you die and who could blame him. Who does **** like that? :twak:
 

Hiball

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CSX was a decent company to work for until Tony Ingram and David Brown came along and I'm sure you know their tactics well. As for the buddy who lost his leg. There was a new Switchman fresh out of school who marked up on the yard XB because it was all he stood for. They called him for a job that switches a local plant and its pretty much considered the most difficult job in our district (lost of interplants, close clearances, spots, etc.). He told the caller he wasn't qualified and she went nuts. She told him if he wasn't qualified she would pull him off the list and so forth and being brand new he didn't know any better. She told him she'd show him refusing work and he'd be charged and being brand new he didn't know any better. The Foreman took his time and tried to show him what to do and told him just to work the switch. He sent a cut out past the switch and told the green horn to set them over in the adjacent track. The Foreman was in between the cut they were getting ready to bunch up and the Switchman double lined the switch sending the train back on top of him. He was in between the 5th and 6th car in the cut to be picked up and the coupling knocked him down causing the car to run over his leg cutting it off at the hip. It was so close to his stomach they couldn't even fit him with a prosthetic. They charged the legless Foreman for not refusing to work with an unqualified man which wasn't even a rule. The railroad always took the position that you didn't need to be qualified in the yard because they didn't want to have to pay anyone to qualify. The charge was basically a ploy to try to bully the Foreman into taking their settlement offer because they knew if it went to trial they were toast. We had the tape of the Switchman telling them he wasn't qualified and the caller bullying him. Every time someone told them they weren't qualified on something the Trainmaster would order them to go and threaten them with insubordination if they refused. They created the mess to start with. When they'd hire people they'd train them on 1 sub only to try and control who worked where and cut down on seniority moves, then when the guy fell out the bottom at the only location he was qualified they'd blow him off and intimidate him into marking up somewhere without being qualified to save the qualifying pay and fatten their bonus. It rarely worked because the UNION wouldn't let it but in a situation like this where the guy was still on his probationary period they'd just do whatever the Trainmaster told them to do. I guess by the logic in some of these pathetic post the Switchman should have immediately resigned and paid all the Foremans medical and future care expenses out of his pocket in the name of the Claim agents bonus and the and the railroads safety goals.

Yep...Sounds like your callers are No different than ours, they only care that they get someone on a job. I'm well versed on Ingrams motives, obviously he brought some of our Number crunching methods to your guys safety record. I noticed last year that you guys where neck and neck with us in the Harriman standings. I've watched NS preach Safety for the last 16 years, Now all of a a sudden we dropped out of the Harriman ( along with most class 1's) and they are supposedly the "kinder more gentler" Railroad, Rumor has it... Getting on and off moving equipment is coming back.. I never thought I would ever see it. As far as the New guy.. Sounds like he was In a pickle, during that Probation period they don't really need a reason to dismiss him. Most people don't understand how unforgiving the railroad industry is, if it wasn't for unions or the Fra it would be 10x's worse than what it is, I've literally watched them violate federal rules to get something from point A to B. They simply pay there fine (Normally negotiated way down) and move on like nothing happened. I'm glad I'm no longer on the ground, I'd prob wouldn't make it.. Way too many silly rules. Btw... I sold 50k worth of NS stock back when Csxt split and bought into you guys... Don't let me down. Ha...
 

sleepjeep

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Now back to the original question , Why buy American tools? I think it is combination of a lot of the points that have been brought up. When you buy anything that is produced locally it has ripple effect throughout the locality. (I am considering Made in USA as local) When you buy, let's say a ratchet, you are first supporting that local store you bought it from. You are supporting the company that made that ratchet. You are supporting all the suppliers that provided the raw materials to make that ratchet. The drivers to transport the goods. You are also supporting the other services that those workers use. Uniform companies, restaurants etc. you have also provided all those workers with jobs that allow them to go out and buy things. This happens regardless of where that ratchet was made. So if you one that is American made then you are actually supporting quite a few more Americans then just the the people that made the ratchet. This is also true if you buy a ratchet that isn't made in the US. You still support a local store, the truck drivers that transported to the tool from the dock to the store and then the ripple effect supports the community outside of the US where that tool was made.
 

BrokewrenchLS1

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The problem I see is that not one wants to study to take these jobs. People want things to go back to the way they were and that is not going to happen. People expect that the training they received twenty years ago will be sufficient enough to last a working lifetime. In today’s world that is not true for many.

Another part of that is, aside from not wanting to take the training classes to be able to learn how to do something, making a living working with your hands is looked down upon in American culture. Is going to a technical college for 2-4 years to learn how to be a diesel mechanic, or a finish carpenter, or a machinery service technician easy? Hell no; it's significantly harder than the "general studies" and business management classes a seemingly endless line of high school kids jump into. But you'll still see an "administrative assistant" look down their nose at a mechanic simply because the mechanic works with his hands. Society has attached a rather weighty stigma to manual labor, and when combined with an ever-decreasing lack of desire to have a job that involves more than a desk and a phone, we're seeing a huge section of the services part of economy sit idle.

The old heads that taught me my craft are long retired. I still call them from time to time and I regard them as great friends. They taught me the tricks of the trade and kept me from getting in trouble. I was still a kid when I starting moving trains and I'd have never made it without them. Charging a young man who thought enough of you to seek your advise on the job is about as shameful thing as I can think of. He'll regard you as a ******** ******* until the day you die and who could blame him. Who does **** like that? :twak:

No ****. I can't say I've been working as long as a lot of people here, but it's always been the guys (or girls) who know their **** and take the time to explain it that get the respect of the people they work with. Instead of flat-out telling me the answer or referencing the chapter in the book I need to read to understand something, the person who goes through the entire process of solving a problem, from identifying it all the way through to post-solution actions are the people I love to work with. The only way to get smarter is to ask questions and try things.
 
OP
C

Conductor562

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 2, 2012
Messages
2,312
Location
West "By God" Virginia
Yep...Sounds like your callers are No different than ours, they only care that they get someone on a job. I'm well versed on Ingrams motives, obviously he brought some of our Number crunching methods to your guys safety record. I noticed last year that you guys where neck and neck with us in the Harriman standings. I've watched NS preach Safety for the last 16 years, Now all of a a sudden we dropped out of the Harriman ( along with most class 1's) and they are supposedly the "kinder more gentler" Railroad, Rumor has it... Getting on and off moving equipment is coming back.. I never thought I would ever see it. As far as the New guy.. Sounds like he was In a pickle, during that Probation period they don't really need a reason to dismiss him. Most people don't understand how unforgiving the railroad industry is, if it wasn't for unions or the Fra it would be 10x's worse than what it is, I've literally watched them violate federal rules to get something from point A to B. They simply pay there fine (Normally negotiated way down) and move on like nothing happened. I'm glad I'm no longer on the ground, I'd prob wouldn't make it.. Way too many silly rules. Btw... I sold 50k worth of NS stock back when Csxt split and bought into you guys... Don't let me down. Ha...

We've been hearing about this impending change of culture but no signs of it yet. CSX pulls the same ****. "Yardmaster this engine doesn't have lead axle sand, the ditch lights are busted out, and the *******'s run over in the floor" "We're aware of that sir. Trainmaster Smith said its an in-route and ok to use as lead power. Be sure and give me your pull time." :lol:
 

RCRGarage

Banned
Joined
Sep 17, 2012
Messages
178
Location
San Diego, CA
Let me start by saying that nobody gets more sad and nostalgic looking at old, once great American factories that have been long since abandoned and turned to ruin more then me. You want to see a sad sight, go to Detroit or drive through the south side of Chicago.

Anybody old enough to remember when these factories where still in full swing would be disturbed and saddened by such images. Given that, I can understand how waiving the flag and chanting "Buy American" may make you feel better about it all but in realty, that's a very simplistic and grossly naive answer.

It's just not that simple. There are a dozens, possibly even hundreds of factors that lead us to this point. Unions, standard of living expectations, greed, laziness, arrogance, entitlements, national debt, the economy, transportation costs, communications (including the Internet), healthcare, etc.. but in an effort to keep this on topic and somewhat tool related...

While I do, in general believe in buying American when possible, I only do so when;

A. The American made product is as good or better then the competition
B. The American made product is priced competitively. I am willing to spend a little more for an American made product but only when it's quality and\or functionality justifies it's add cost.

In short, I will not reward any company for making low quality or over priced products just because they stamped "Made in the USA" on them. Right, wrong or indifferent US companies will have to learn how to compete in this global economy and IMO, holding them to a lower standard is not helping them in the long run. Ask the Auto Industry who's had to learn that lesson the hard way. If anything, I hold US manufacturers to a higher standard because I want "Made in the USA" to still mean something great.

The fact that this post has been ignored is proof of its truthfulness, GJ has a tendency or overlook reasonable, logical, and true posts.
 

FancyLearnin

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 13, 2011
Messages
96
Location
Ham Lake, MN
I am new here but just want to offer my two cents...

AV tinker er, thanks for inserting a dispassionate, rationale bit of opinion to the discussion. A lot of emotions come to the surface in this kind of discussion (understandably), but when that happens the facts get muddied.

There is a paradigm shift going on in American manufacturing. Not all manufacturing is low-tech, guy-inserts-tab-A-into-slot-B. I work in the medical device industry and the technicians that work for us make decent, if not luxurious, wages; say 50-60k+/yr. It's not high-skilled labor, but it's not low-skill either; I'd call it mid-skill. That's the way industry is moving. But the U.S. labor force is not set up like that. We have high-skill engineers/scientists and lower skilled assembly-type workers, but little middle ground. The CEO of Apple, when recently asked about all the i-whatevers being made in China, said it is because there is a large population of mid-skilled workers who are highly adaptable to change, and we don't have that in the U.S (well, not in the numbers that traditional assembly-type jobs have enjoyed historically). Of course that is not the only factor...

That is not to say that basic assembly work isn't honorable, but those jobs are just going away in a nation where a higher percentage than ever is college educated, fewer and few things are manually assembled, and fewer and fewer people with $100k educations are willing to "put up with" manufacturing working environments. On the one hand this is sad, as we have a nation of entitlement seekers who expect high pay with low work, but it is also sad that we're losing the cultural core of folks who have basic mechanical knowledge and intuition. Ironically, it's the highest-tech items that often require the most labor intensive assembly. Implantable pacemakers and defibrillators are almost all hand assembled, for instance. But such assembly requires a very high degree of skill and as such is rewarded accordingly.

I have a B.S. in physics, a B.A. in applied mathematics, and a masters in biomedical engineering. But that doesn't mean I don't go out in the garage or in my shop and get my hands dirty every week. But more and more I see younger engineers (I'm 38) come in who don't know which end of a screwdriver (or oscilloscope) to grab. I suppose this is no different than any other major shift in technological evolution.

It happened with the invention of the moldboard plow, when fewer people were required to break up greater acreage, it happened when the automated loom replaced manual weaving and fabric production skyrocketed, it happened when crop sowing and harvesting became mechanized, it happened when any number of things that used to be hand made became machine-made. The people that did things the old way lost their jobs; the things made the new way became cheaper; the things made the old way became more expensive; the people who lost their jobs became angry (i.e. the Luddites), and the people who only knew the new way didn't learn the skills or work ethic of old-guard. But when those changes happened, an entirely new breed of worker emerged that required a new set of skills - to fix the plow, operate the loom, design the tractor, dry, store and transport unprecedented amounts of grain, etc.

The shift in technological evolution is a painful one; it also brings with it new opportunities. But there will always be a market, however niche, for products made the old-word way. You can still by baskets woven buy hand in the US, you can still buy wallpaper printed by hand, you can still buy a dining room table that is made with hand tools. And you pay through the nose for them. Snap-on isn't really all that different - it is the hand-cut dovetail cherry table, and Gearwrench is the Ikea $75 special.

As for workers' pay, it is all about supply and demand. Assembly jobs pay less because the low-skilled workforce is larger, and demand is now lower. I get paid more than an assembly line worker because there are fewer people that do what I do, and demand is higher. Any attempt to artificially inflate a low-demand, high supply wage simply cannot be sustained. I look at it like this: you get paid based on how much money you make for someone else. Why do you think pro athletes' endorsement contracts are so huge, and why Julia Roberts gets $20mil a movie?
 

oldtools

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 15, 2008
Messages
2,706
I am new here but just want to offer my two cents. The reason why America was a manufacturing powerhouse when our fathers and grandfathers were working was the fact that the competition was still pulling itself out of the rubble of World War 2. Europe was a pile of rocks after a half a century of fighting, dictatorships, and economic collapses. Japan, the only other modern country at the time, had been reduced to ashes also. America remained largely untouched so everyone turned to us for their goods. Exports where high, we were fat, dumb and happy. We were the world’s only source for production. Many companies failed to see other countries were catching up and failed to act on the changing market.
To think that we will be a manufacturing powerhouse again in the sense that we were decades ago is “regressive” thinking. We are actually ramping up manufacturing in this country more than ever but not in the sense we have lived in. Robots are taking the place of humans, able to work faster and more accurately. This is progressive thinking. We need to be the next powerhouse and technology is the key to bringing us back to the top.
During the last few years as many screamed for work there were millions of jobs that went unfilled in this country. High paying jobs. Why did these jobs go unfiled? No one was qualified. The days were dad goes off to the factory and installs the same widget every day for decades are over. The jobs that are still going unfilled are more highly specialized; jobs like technicians to repair the robots that took their job on the assembly line.
The problem I see is that not one wants to study to take these jobs. People want things to go back to the way they were and that is not going to happen. People expect that the training they received twenty years ago will be sufficient enough to last a working lifetime. In today’s world that is not true for many. So many will argue about the problems but won’t face reality and see that they themselves are part of the problem.
This is not meant to be directed at anyone on here, I am simply stating my observations, take them for what they are worth.

http://www.joshuakennon.com/240000-...-but-not-enough-skilled-workers-to-fill-them/
 

cgv69

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 11, 2012
Messages
1,033
Location
Boone Co., KY
I’m back after several hours and I can see the current has decidedly changed to one of pro union. When I was arguing the pro union position this afternoon the union haters were out for my hide.

What has changed? It’s obvious to me the anti-union crowd this afternoon was either on the night shift or unemployed and holding a grudge against union members.

Tonight union members are off duty and here to set the record straight.

Regarding that stuff I read about Henry Ford instituting progressive change before ford was unionized, that’s true. But his motivation was not because he was progressive but rather because he was trying to buy his workers off from joining the union.
You are so hopelessly clueless that I actually feel my IQ dropping by just reading your posts :rolleyes:

Just about everything you have written in this thread is so blatantly wrong or misinformed that its actually funny. Sure I could pick apart your posts, point by point but I have a life and its abundantly clear that it would be a waste of my time. You are obviously the type who will continue to argue their point even after being proven wrong. I learned a long time ago that you just can't have an intelligent debate with a mentally handicap opponent.

For anybody who may still be considering replying to this rodent, keep this in mind... Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, it still means you're retarded. ;)

Have a wonderful weekend :beer:
 

Chadwilliam1

Well-known member
Joined
May 13, 2012
Messages
2,789
Location
Cincinnati
Ok guys, home from my UNION job and ready to go! I have to say I'm a bit surprised by the level of union bashing going on. How can middle class Americans be against the only body in this country who is advocating the middle class? The health of the nation has long been dependent upon the state of the middle class. If you cared to notice you would observe that as the strength of the labor unions has diminished so has the stability of the middle class. Corporations have long scapegoated the unions for the poor decisions of the top management. Hostess raked in a healthy $2,000,000,000+ profit in 2011. Top management gave themselves raises ranging from 100-300% and they're suddenly bankrupt because the union workers making less than $20 hr. refuse to take ANOTHER cut in pay and the pension they've worked their whole life for? GM spent at least 20 years putting on a clinic on how to run a seemingly "to big to fail" company into the ground by doing dumb **** like flying the CEO from Seattle to Detroit and back EVERY DAY in a company provided jet, ignoring market trends and consumer demand, completely ignoring the quality standards used by foreign makers, and putting out the same cars under a dozen marquees, and when they fail? It's those UAW bastards that are to blame. So your boss gives himself a 300% raise and then comes to you and asks you to take a $4 hr. cut in pay and give up part of your pension as a result. You're 50 years old, have 2 kids in college, and your car is on it's last leg. How many of you are going to throw up your hand and volunteer for the cut? NOT A GOD DAMNED ONE OF YOU! Corporations are ruthless. If they could get by with paying you $2 hr. they'd do it. If you are a middle class American and make a decent wage in a non-union job it's only because somewhere a union has set a precedent to which they must remain competitive. If you believe the smear campaign put on by big business about how awful unions are you're a company tool! The kind of dip **** that allows big business to erode the working man for the sole benefit of the 1% is the kind of dumb *** that is to thank for the current state we're in. You can't afford a $100 USA ratchet? Many people can't. However, there are lots of quality USA made ratchets offered by professional brands like Proto and SK for half that or less, but since the most expensive ratchet on the market is out of reach you go right for the import. That's like saying "if I can't afford a Corvette Z06 I'll just get a KIA". I work on the Railroad and they invented ******, unfair, labor practices. You've heard the term "I got railroaded"? well I'm here to tell you boys, THERES SOMETHING TO IT! Most of you can only imagine the terrible things I've seen these bastards do. I've seen people given 15 days off for not coming to a complete stop before the reach in their pocket for their keys. I've seen a man with his leg cut off at the hip because the railroad forced a switchman on a job in a plant which he'd never been and then charged the guy that got his leg cut off with a rule violation for not refusing to go. I could go on and on with horror stories about the things the railroad has done to good people. Am I to believe this is the union's fault? The EPA was a good thing in the beginning. They cleaned up my area after decades of irresponsible practices by the many chemical companies in the Kanawha valley. There were 17 superfund sites in a 30 mile radius and the impact was tremendous. They forced companies to be responsible and stop shitting on the people to save a dollar. Now they're nothing more than a bureau activist hell bent on pursuing the agenda of the environmental extremist. This post could go on for hours but you get my drift. The biggest laugh I've had was reading about how buying Chinese junk is so great for the American economy :lol: That's brilliance in it's purist form!


Well said brother.
 

Boiler

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 20, 2009
Messages
1,967
Location
Indiana
#1 reason to argue for buying USA? Because you want to see prosperity ripple through the US economy and have everyone here do better.

#1 reason to argue against it? So that you can sleep at night, not having to worry that you sold out your neighbor, your grandchildren, and YOURSELF just to "save" a few bucks.
 

NWphotog

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 13, 2008
Messages
1,471
#1 reason to argue for buying USA? Because you want to see prosperity ripple through the US economy and have everyone here do better.

#1 reason to argue against it? So that you can sleep at night, not having to worry that you sold out your neighbor, your grandchildren, and YOURSELF just to "save" a few bucks.
Pure and uter BS. Factory work was great in the 50s and 60s. Now it is the last bastion of people that have no motivation and don't mind horrible pay. What you want to pay every factory worker 2x? You just cut every one else's pay in half and ruined what little competitiveness American factories had. If we should buy American that also means never buying German, Japanese, Canadian, or Mexican products. Oops that means most US autos are out. It always amazes me the lack of logic on the buy American crowd.
 

Dieselbutterfly

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
412
Location
Louisville Kentucky
#1 reason to argue for buying USA? Because you want to see prosperity ripple through the US economy and have everyone here do better.

#1 reason to argue against it? So that you can sleep at night, not having to worry that you sold out your neighbor, your grandchildren, and YOURSELF just to "save" a few bucks.

very concise,i agree.:thumbup:
 

hifi_hokie

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 2, 2010
Messages
1,102
Location
Hillsborough, NC
this is no different then a employee handbook given out at non union shops.

I guess "employment at will" isn't practiced much up there :)

Would I have more job security in a union? Definitely, but I'd rather have the onus put on me to go out and seek higher pay if the deal I'm getting isn't working for me. Same with my retirement income.

It'll be interesting to see what happens in the coming years, I'd guess that most people of my generation (mid-20s) aren't banking on having a union-negotiated pension but are investing for themselves. Couple that with having no long-term loyalty to any one employer, and we're bound for a big shift from what it used to be...
 
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