American vs Chinese Craftsman RP (pics)

[blindbug]

There has been a lot of discussion lately about the apparent push of Sears moving COO of Craftsman RP tools overseas. I was in Sears yesterday and happened to come upon a matching set of 14pc combination wrenches where the COO was China on one and USA on the other. I wanted to do a little investigative work so I took a look at the 2 sets side by side and took the pictures attached.

1. The China set is NOTICEABLY heavier than the US set, so much so that I could have EASILY told you which set was which with my eyes closed, based on weight alone.

2. When I opened the sets to see what may be causing this, I found that nearly every wrench visually had a larger girth and a hand-held sense of more weight to them. Length was nearly identical for all of the wrenches I compared side-by-side.

3. The additional issue I see on the China versions is a lack of COO on the wrenches... which I can only assume is an attempt to hide the fact that these are being made overseas. The only place you will find the COO is on the back of the box/blow molded case, which brings me to:

4. The blow molded cases were almost identical, however the US version has the details molded into the plastic while the China version has a sticker. The sticker is NOT that sticky, and in a few years it will be hard to tell the COO, because it will fall off or scratch off. Which, in my opinion, is another attempt to obfuscate the COO to consumers.

5. The finish on the US versions have a very dimple like pattern, probably from sand molds used in processing. The Chinese version has a texture similar to a chewing gum wrapper, and side by side is much less appealing. (The picture that just says 'Chinese Finish' below is between (2) US made wrenches, you can really tell the difference. It almost looks like my camera is out of focus, but I assure you, it is not.) Also of note is the higher rise on the polished section of the wrench in the Chinese version, again adding to the overall weight and girth of the product.

Once I saw them side by side, I could go down the aisle and easily point out which wrenches on the shelves were US made and which were Chinese without looking at the COO information. I know that a wrench is a wrench and the nuts and bolts don't know the COO, but the quality is noticeably less appealing, and the use of more steel in production and heavier tools makes using the China versions that much more of a pain in the neck (literally). The additional girth also makes it a tough fit in tight clearances when under the hood or whatever.

Personally, I would be looking for old stock if you are going to buy Craftsman RP at this point. I'd love to know what everyone else's (totally mild ) opinions are on the attached pictures and above statements....

(Sorry if I have mis-spellings, I am posting from my phone... coincidentally the pictures are phone pictures too, so sorry if not great at showing what I am seeing)

 

[blindbug]

Also, I forgot to include he picture of the other side.

 

[Hiball]

I cant comment on the New Chinese Craftsman, I can say Personally that ive owned Multiple sets of the US RP Wrenches and they have never let me down. I say multiple because when i was Younger i had a Issues with misplacing tools.. LOL. I will say once "I" Upgraded to Higher end Wrenches that Tendency to misplace tools quickly subsided.. Its seems to Grab your attention when you have to replace a $25 dollar Single Wrench versus replace a $20 set of Wrenches. Yep.. I still have some RP Wrenches in the Box, Yep... Ive been known to Double them up, Might hit them with a Deadblow on occasion.

Thanks for the Pictures.. Sometimes you just dont know how you good you had it, Till it was gone.

 

[d.mcfarland]

The lobster claw gives less clearance especially when just a little bit of a turn is needed I'd imagine. A strength test may tell the reasoning behind the increased size.

 

[Kracin]

i think the most noticeable way for anyone to tell the difference is to look at the corners of the raised panel section, the chinese apparently has sharper longer corners than the american which is a more even and rounded corner. aside from that, some use could make both the finished look similar, and it might be easier for someone without one of each to tell them apart looking at the corners of the raised panel.

i'm gonna see which i have been using for the last 4 years, because i have had no gripes about using these wrenches in an industrial setting for that long, no rounded bolts, no broken knuckles.

 

[blindbug]

The lobster claw gives less clearance especially when just a little bit of a turn is needed I'd imagine. A strength test may tell the reasoning behind the increased size.

This is exactly what came to mine on the extra girth of these Chinese counterparts. I would assume that Craftsman has said "They must meet these specs" and the Chinese factories went back and bulked up on the inferior metal to meet those specs. All I know is that the bulk is no good in tight spaces, and is no good if having to lug that tool set around, or if you have to use one of the larger ones every day. I actually slid the US version back to the bottom of one of the shelves with the intention of going back and buying it.. had to cool off for a week or so, or else the wife will be onto me

 

[RedFordTruck]

This is exactly what came to mine on the extra girth of these Chinese counterparts. I would assume that Craftsman has said "They must meet these specs" and the Chinese factories went back and bulked up on the inferior metal to meet those specs. All I know is that the bulk is no good in tight spaces, and is no good if having to lug that tool set around, or if you have to use one of the larger ones every day. I actually slid the US version back to the bottom of one of the shelves with the intention of going back and buying it.. had to cool off for a week or so, or else the wife will be onto me

Guilty of this too. When I see a US something on top of a chinese something I move the US to the back so I can come back and buy it later If I want to.

 

[lowsodium]

The extra thickness of the chinese ones can be kind of a pain to use in some scenarios. I have two different sets of wrenches I commonly use, and many times I end up using the thinner ones. Unless your hitting it regularly with a hammer I prefer thinner.

 

[Trey T]

This thread is quite useless. The OP needs to test it to see if performance change. Difference in weight and look does NOT justify US made is superior

 

[Hiball]

This thread is quite useless. The OP needs to test it to see if performance change. Difference in weight and look does NOT justify US made is superior

You dont like it.. Make your own thread... Then we can dismantle your "Observations", All the OP did was compare Appearances between the 2.

 

[turbowoodworker]

And he took some damn nice pictures too.

 

[cburnscrx]

This thread is quite useless. The OP needs to test it to see if performance change. Difference in weight and look does NOT justify US made is superior

Size Matters...Always wanted to say that. Since the lobster claw could be an issue, I would say that's a significant difference. The finish, while different wasn't terribly noticable.

 

[blindbug]

This thread is quite useless. The OP needs to test it to see if performance change. Difference in weight and look does NOT justify US made is superior

I never once said that the performance of either was better or worse. In fact, I would bet the proverbial farm that the performance of both of these sets is damn near identical. I would think, at minimum, Craftsman would take the onus of providing technical clearances on these and would run the spot sample tests necessary to make sure they pass the mustard.

However, I was always under the assumption that the molds they use for the US made sets were basically shipped to China to make the Chinese sets... what I see is that this is not so. Had I never seen the wrenches side-by-side, I probably would have never known that there was a difference and carried on about my business. BUT, now being an informed consumer, I would rather spend my identical amount of money on the US made set because it's smaller/lighter from a likely higher quality metal blend (China has always been known to have inferior metal blends, I hope we can agree on that).

Besides, let's say that the performance of the Chinese set is far superier to the US made set. I get a lifetime warranty either way, so if I break the US made version, I warranty it and get a new wrench (probably Chinese). If I NEVER break the US made version, I use a wrench for a lifetime that (in my opinion) feels better in the hands than the China version.

 

[NC-Fordguy]

Without getting into the COO rhetoric.......

I'm curious if anyone has actually run into clearance issues using the outsourced wrenches.

I have some of the universal and ratchet wrenches that have the same design on the open end. The USA made crossforce wrenches also have this design as well.

I have yet to run into an issue using the above mentioned wrenches. I primarily wrench on trucks and 4x4s so there's usually room for things to clear. The tightest area I've run into is header bolts and the outsourced and crossforce wrenches do not present any issues in that application.

I've been tempted to get a set of the outsourced crafty RP wrenches to see for myself but I need another set of wrenches like I need an IRS audit

 

[NC-Fordguy]

:

However, I was always under the assumption that the molds they use for the US made sets were basically shipped to China to make the Chinese sets... what I see is that this is not so. Had I never seen the wrenches side-by-side, I probably would have never known that there was a difference and carried on about my business..

Perhaps the tooling for the outsourced wrenches are indeed new. The crafty industrial which is produced domestically look identical to me to the older made in USA that are/were in Sears stores. The exception being of course industrial stamped on them

 

[sk farmer]

thank you for this report. i have seen these wrenches. i have compared and based an opinion on them from that. for some people that is not enough, they won't take your word for it. the finish looks worse, the heads are too bulky and the coo is hidden, easily lost or non existent. your report backs up what i have been stating for a while.

chinese craftsman =

 

[Stepside]

We all know that the bottom line for Craftsman making the change is $$.

As far as size of the different tools . . . all the tools must meet ANSI spec.

But, most all of the China made tools are chrome-vanadium.
And, most all of the USA made tools are chrome-molybdenum.

It is easier to reach ANSI spec with the cheaper china tool
because it does not require the expensive heat-treatment that chrome-molybdenum requires.

You see more metal because it takes more to achieve the strength of chrome-moly.

Note: CV stamped on the tool - stands for Chrome Vanadium
Note: Heat treatments of alloyed steel is proprietary information.

For me . . I'll put my dollars on proven heat treatments of Made in the USA.

 

[Steevo]

This same comparison could be made between successive generations of US made Craftsman RP wrenches. Some of my oldest ones look positively fragile compared to the big fat bloated beasts they have become over the years. Even just betwen old and recent US made units, the beams are twice the size they once were.

 

[devoncoolman]

Junk. That Chinese wrench looks even crapyer than a us wrench

 

[d.mcfarland]

We all know that the bottom line for Craftsman making the change is $$.

As far as size of the different tools . . . all the tools must meet ANSI spec.

But, most all of the China made tools are chrome-vanadium.
And, most all of the USA made tools are chrome-molybdenum.

It is easier to reach ANSI spec with the cheaper china tool
because it does not require the expensive heat-treatment that chrome-molybdenum requires.

You see more metal because it takes more to achieve the strength of chrome-moly.

Note: CV stamped on the tool - stands for Chrome Vanadium
Note: Heat treatments of alloyed steel is proprietary information.

For me . . I'll put my dollars on proven heat treatments of Made in the USA.

Good first post! I agree that the move to overseas manufacturers is obviously based on increased profits per sale. The Craftsman name is still engrained into many people's heads as quality tools. Sears is riding that wave.

I think what we need is to put the Chinese RP wrenches through a good workout and get some feedback.

 

[helterskelter]

5. The finish on the US versions have a very dimple like pattern, probably from sand molds used in processing. The Chinese version has a texture similar to a chewing gum wrapper, and side by side is much less appealing.

The texture of the surface is the as-forged condition. Neither of those wrenches ever saw sand molds in processing. The entire wrench had that texture on it when it came off of the press, then they polished/machined the areas that are smooth/bright.

 

[helterskelter]

Perhaps the tooling for the outsourced wrenches are indeed new. The crafty industrial which is produced domestically look identical to me to the older made in USA that are/were in Sears stores. The exception being of course industrial stamped on them

However, I was always under the assumption that the molds they use for the US made sets were basically shipped to China to make the Chinese sets... what I see is that this is not so.
.

Guys, the tooling is definitely new. The cost of the tooling to make those wrenches is negligible when you consider how many wrenches they're going to sell. There's no way you'd tear down a forging line of that scale, pack it all up and ship it overseas.

You'd machine new forging dies and set up shop in the new plant. Once that plant proves it can make acceptable wrenches at the capacity you need, then you'd start ramping down your redundant facility.

The model that those dies was machined from has obviously changed from the old US dies. *Why* they've changed the design could be a number of reasons. But if I had to guess, I'd say maybe they can get away with a lesser grade of steel if they beef up the wrenches or otherwise compensate for some other deficiency. There's no other reason to change the design (it wasn't done for good looks).

 

[retrobuilder]

The thicker metal area toward the hand grip area probably does little for better strength of the contact portion (which is weakest stress zone. Actual test would affirm it. I'd bet a set of SO, Armstrong or other USA Craftsman wrenches I'm correct.

 

[cryan]

The Chinese will use whatever grade of steel you ask them too and they're just as capable of the same quality as anyone else its all just a matter of what the customer will pay for. Most of the cost savings come from the reduced labour cost due to zero workers rights and a never ending stream of fresh workers for those that burn out or move on. The other major factor in the rise of Chinese manufacturing is that the commie government deliberately keep the Chinese currency value low against the dollar making them more favourable for exports.

I recently saw my first set of Craftsman tools in COSTCO. We don't have Sears so I don't think they are available elsewhere in the UK. Having heard all about them on here I opened them up to have a good look. Honestly? I wouldn't have wasted money on them. It was a blow moulded box set with sockets, ratchets and spanners. The ratchet looked like it had been cast in beach sand and was very roughly finished. The edges were sharp enough to shave with and the sockets were equally rough. the spanners(wrenches) had forged in USA stamped as the photo above. If that's the quality of your lower end tools its no wonder you guys spend so much on Snap-On etc. I used to work offshore for Oceaneering which is US based and they supplied us with Snap-On hand tools which was the first place I used them. I have liked them ever since but to date the only ratchet I ever busted was a Snap-On and there was no warranty return offshore the Congo.
However, Craftsman? No thanks. They also had a similar set from Crescent on display which looked much better quality.

 

[d.mcfarland]

You are aware that was what Craftsman tools were designed for? Homeowners could finally afford an assortment of quality tools at very reasonable prices.

I, along with many others, have never had a single problem with our USA RP Craftsman wrenches. Problems are an easy fix if you have a nearby Sears!

 

[oldtools]

Guess who make the lobster claw? It is also very low quality.

 

[tsarcasm]

This same comparison could be made between successive generations of US made Craftsman RP wrenches. Some of my oldest ones look positively fragile compared to the big fat bloated beasts they have become over the years. Even just betwen old and recent US made units, the beams are twice the size they once were.

yep, my SAE rp's are as thin as snap-on wrenches. though they are so old they don't have part numbers

 

[Chadwilliam1]

You are aware that was what Craftsman tools were designed for? Homeowners could finally afford an assortment of quality tools at very reasonable prices.

I, along with many others, have never had a single problem with our USA RP Craftsman wrenches. Problems are an easy fix if you have a nearby Sears!

my raised panel ratchets have never let me down.

 

[blindbug]

Guess who make the lobster claw? It is also very low quality.

Did I miss the manufacturer for your post?

 

[oldtools]

No one want to take a guess?

 

[Kracin]

Without getting into the COO rhetoric.......

I'm curious if anyone has actually run into clearance issues using the outsourced wrenches.

I have some of the universal and ratchet wrenches that have the same design on the open end. The USA made crossforce wrenches also have this design as well.

I have yet to run into an issue using the above mentioned wrenches. I primarily wrench on trucks and 4x4s so there's usually room for things to clear. The tightest area I've run into is header bolts and the outsourced and crossforce wrenches do not present any issues in that application.

I've been tempted to get a set of the outsourced crafty RP wrenches to see for myself but I need another set of wrenches like I need an IRS audit

using these wrenches, i have run into areas where the head barely fits enough to get a tiny turn to the point where you can finally slip it on the bolt head. if i had the larger head i might not have gotten the wrench in there. same can be said for smaller applications like trying to remove pressure relief valves off of cylinders where they are in such a tight spot that the head barely fits in anyway.

but that being said. switching from 1 brand to another when you barely have any clearance could present an issue, a lot of the armstrong wrenches i've seen have had much beefier heads and handles too.

You are aware that was what Craftsman tools were designed for? Homeowners could finally afford an assortment of quality tools at very reasonable prices.

I, along with many others, have never had a single problem with our USA RP Craftsman wrenches. Problems are an easy fix if you have a nearby Sears!

my raised panel ratchets have never let me down.

^ these, never had a problem with them. people's perception of quality seems to be blinded by where it might have been made. i get to hear it all day long about "commie tools", etc, but when it comes down to it, those same guys have any number of tools that were made in china but have worked for them over the years.

 

[RedFordTruck]

No one want to take a guess?

Looks like a cheap India wrench ive seen

 

[d.mcfarland]

No one want to take a guess?

Nobody knows what you are talking about.

 

[Hiball]

No one want to take a guess?

That finish looks like a Vanadium tool Company Wrench, I picked up some sets off Ebay along with some other members here.

 

[Vegaman_Dan]

I'd be curious to hold both in my hand and see how they feel. Sometimes the heft of a tool is significant, and if the handle is thicker, perhaps it won't bite into your fingers as sharply.

Before I cast a pass or fail on this, I would want to try them out in hand. There is a chance these could actually be better.

 

[bsaint]

So who says that if craftsman didnt go over seas the dies weren't gonna be redesigned anyways?

 

[Gotmayhem]

I'd be curious to hold both in my hand and see how they feel. Sometimes the heft of a tool is significant, and if the handle is thicker, perhaps it won't bite into your fingers as sharply.

Before I cast a pass or fail on this, I would want to try them out in hand. There is a chance these could actually be better.

I'd be willing to bet that they're just as strong, but not necessarily just as desirable. I'd also agree that having thick beams isn't always a bad thing either. I have a set of Williams Supercombos and due to the thick rounded beams they're by far and away the most comfortable wrench I've held yet. But it's just as easy to have a poorly designed beam that feels like a clumsy bar. I have a set of ratcheting C-man combo's that I'm pretty certain are chinese made. That being said, they're very nice to look at and use as well. But they look a lot different than the ones the OP posted as well, so take that as you may.

 

[Strouty]

The Chinese will use whatever grade of steel you ask them too and they're just as capable of the same quality as anyone else its all just a matter of what the customer will pay for.

Has anyone ever seen any Chinese product that was arguably good quality? I am actually not trying to put fuel on the fire, I remember another thread that was discussing what Chinese workers used for "good" tools and they were not Chinese made tools.

 

[Gotmayhem]

Has anyone ever seen any Chinese product that was arguably good quality? I am actually not trying to put fuel on the fire, I remember another thread that was discussing what Chinese workers used for "good" tools and they were not Chinese made tools.

My chinese C-man ratcheting combos (non Raised Panel) are what I would describe as good quality. The chrome is of surprising quality, the open ends don't mar or spread easily, and the ratcheting ends haven't broken yet. I find it funny because I've had friends complement them...but they're just chinese sears "junk"

 

[JasonW]

Has anyone ever seen any Chinese product that was arguably good quality? I am actually not trying to put fuel on the fire, I remember another thread that was discussing what Chinese workers used for "good" tools and they were not Chinese made tools.

That's a good question. I'm no expert, but from what I have read the Chinese people, if they have money, do not buy their own goods. They import from the US, (Taiwan?), Europe, Russia, the Middle East, etc. Does anyone have on the ground experience?

For me, I think a really interesting question is, 'What will the Chinese people demand in terms of wages and quality in 25 or 30 years?' Will there be quality to be had or will the production simply have shifted to Africa and continue its downward slide. If China is to be this major world economy, what sort of consumers will they want to be? I know, that was probably a question better suited to another board. But really, should I be stocking up on tools for my future kids and grandkids? I remember my dad complaining about the 'new' tools when I was a kid.