Pressure Treated Deck Repair, Opinions Please

[gahrajmahal]

Hi All, I have started to rely on the helpful opinions I have recieved from you, the members of the GJ.

Back in 2005 I paid for somone to remove the original 30+ year old deck and replace it with this slightly updated design I provided. It was build from pressure treated #1 Pine with a permit and inspection., We interviewed 4 builders and went with the one we liked the best. The original builder works with a helper and is still in business today. We did have to argue a bit to get the curved face along with the uneven spacing of the posts and rails. Once he got the job done he loved the design and has it on his website.

I sealed the deck the first year it was up, top and underside, and two more times over the years. I used Baer solid color stain and latex paint on the rails and supports.

This year I was having someone provide me with a quote to pressure wash and seal the deck when he noticed some mildew on a particular spot from the underside. When we went up to the deck and walked around, the boards in that area were soft enough to put your foot through. It was not soft in that area last fall as the table and chairs we have are right over the now rotted area.

Needless to say I am pretty sick over this as I thought this project was complete and only needed periodic maintainance. Due to lack of finances to hire it out again, I will do the work myself, possibly with a little hired help. I called the original builder and asked about the vender where the wood was purchased. I plan to go to the lumber yard and see if I can get the rotted boards replaced under warranty. Most pressure treated boards say lifetime LimitedWarranty. What this means I don't know yet.

I plan to replace all the decking. I will also replace the affected joists. My question to you all is should I upgrade to cedar?

A similar deck I built on the front of the house is a little older. It recieved the same maintainance and is just fine with the exception of some twisting of the boards. When I built mine I used boards from Home Depot, but I stained everything prior to cutting and assembly. I also gapped the boards 1/4" using a paint stick. The builder specifically provided no gap between the boards explaining once the boards dried out and shrank they would have the perfect gap. Well, they never did develop this gap and routinely had leaves and other plant matter jamming up the gaps.

Whats your opinion of the wood failure. Mold, dry rot, poor build practice, lack of maintaince?

Any build or finishing suggestions for the new repair would be greatly appreciated.

 

[aandpdan]

Poor design?

You have a curved outside edge. In order to do that they had to notch that rim joist, deeply. Any time you cut pressure treated wood the exposed raw edges should be touched up.

Those boards look pretty close together too. Water won't drain properly and it will saturate the top of the joists.

 

[gahrajmahal]

I wondered about the deep kerfs to allow it to curve too. My wife got me 4 books from the library about deck design and all 4 showed the exact same technique to allow the curve. I do think the lack of spacing between the boards is a problem. The front porch deck Is built close to the ground and is much more shady but does not have a problem.

 

[pattenp]

Instead of upgrading to cedar I'd upgrade to composite.

 

[thammel]

Couple other thoughts - yes, the kerf cuts are a big problem. You should have soaked these pieces in a watersealer treatment. I'm also wondering if the kind of opaque paint/sealer might be doing more harm than good. I've had good success with Sikkens Cetol SRD.

Also, in the future, put a sealing asphalt tape along ALL the tops of joists, under the deck boards. This helps to prevent rot in the joists. You can use door/window flashing tape.

If you have the $$, use Azek decking and never treat the decking again. But then you might want to space joists at 12". I am so happy I had my deck and screened in porch replaced with Azek and all pvc trim. NEVER have to stain again, only clean!!!!!!

Tom

 

[rlitman]

Poor design?

You have a curved outside edge. In order to do that they had to notch that rim joist, deeply. Any time you cut pressure treated wood the exposed raw edges should be touched up.

Those boards look pretty close together too. Water won't drain properly and it will saturate the top of the joists.

This is very true. Especially since pressure treatment in 2x lumber is mostly superficial. 4x lumber gets a more penetrating treatment that makes it allowed for ground contact that 2x lumber does not get. So the notches pretty much completely compromised the lumber.

Instead of upgrading to cedar I'd upgrade to composite.

This was a structural failure, not just a decking failure. The structure cannot be made from composite.

There's more to the story here that we're not seeing, but one thing that smacks me in the face, is that the decking is not spaced enough for proper drainage.

 

[Tim The Tool Man]

A lot of issues with that deck design, including deck planks that are to tight together. This holds moisture. As mentioned the notching of the facia to achieve a curve contributed to the failure of that piece. No strength, no drainage, and open untreated end grain. Composite lumber can easily make that bend without notching. Also I don't see any blocking at the tails of your deck joists. Notching that facia completely compromised the strength that piece of wood might have had. Also as mentioned that solid sealer all around your deck effectively sealed in any and all moisture. The only place you probably didn't seal is the tops of the joists where the deck boards were fastened, effectively creating a cup that collected all incoming rain water. Throw in winter's freeze thaw cycles with your water logged joists and, yes you will have failures.

Avoid solid stains and latex paint on the underside of a structure like this, water needs a chance to drain and the wood needs to breath.

 

[rlitman]

Composite lumber sure can easily make that bend, but that curved piece is more than just visual. If it were my deck, I'd take two pieces of pressure treated decking, and glue laminate them into that shape, then plane off the "M" shaped top until it is flat.

Changing the decking to composite would work, but you still need to replace those rotted joists.

I've never heard of using an asphalt tape on top of the joists. Interesting:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000IUL9NO/?tag=atomicindus08-20
Looks like it acts as a flashing. Not a half bad idea really.

 

[mobiledynamics]

OT, but since we are talking about wood / water.....

I was planning to make a *pit box* rececssed underneath my pavers.
Empty, with PT 2x4 on the sides and top. Bottom would be gravel to drain.

This pit box would in theory be used to place a couple of jerry cans for fuel ....did not want to put them near the house during a hurricane....

Based on this thread, seems like 2x4 PT will ROT in my proposed application...

 

[rlitman]

I have not seen 2x lumber rated for ground contact, but I have heard that it exists.
Look at the 4x4 posts at your lumber yard. They are clearly darker, and more heavily treated, because they are rated for ground contact.

Since you would be building a retaining wall, composite lumber would not be appropriate, and I would be concerned that if 2x4 lumber bowed in under the pressure from the ground, it could cause the path above to collapse. Something to think about.

 

[wssix99]

Its important to note that pressure treated wood is not weatherproofed, per se. It's only resistant to insects and fungus.

If the deck was not built with a proper slope, or if its constantly in the shade, or is under trees that drip water on to it constantly, there could be water problems.

I sealed the deck the first year it was up, top and underside, and two more times over the years. I used Baer solid color stain and latex paint on the rails and supports./QUOTE]

This isn't enough. You should apply water sealer every year and maybe more often if the deck is really damp. The sealer doesn't last long. If your latex covered parts are all good, then that might be an indication that the deck wasn't sealed often enough.

Cedar will also require maintenance. If you are after a maintenance free deck, I'd go for composite boards. You might also consider painting the entire deck.

This year I was having someone provide me with a quote to pressure wash and seal the deck when he noticed some mildew on a particular spot from the underside.

If its really mildew or mold, that would indicate poor quality of the wood. Mildew is a fungus and Pressure Treating is supposed to stop that.

 

[pattenp]

.........

This was a structural failure, not just a decking failure. The structure cannot be made from composite. ............

I should have specified decking. I know the structural can't be composite.

 

[Automatic Slim]

many problems here.

the manner in which the support joists is secured (3x 12") does not give the intended support. Never "line up" joists, and the attachment is all wrong.

Why notch out the header board? IMO, should have been a "false" front.

Need support at the 1/2 pt on this deck as well, span too big for only 1, IMO.

Wood needs to "cup" up so snow loads, water dont collect.

PT wood went through transformation in 2004 w/ the "new" wood. However, i have "never" seen joints remain that tight if installed w/ new PT wood, the saturation shrinks and boards will open up and raidius decking has radius edge as well. I'm not sure that is PT wood, but it can rot.

 

[rlitman]

I should have specified decking. I know the structural can't be composite.

No, it was my bad. I misread the comments.

 

[Herb]

Yes, in repairing your deck use some type of waterproof tar paper or ice and water barrier strips on top of the carrying beams and then again on top of each joist before attaching the finish deck boards. The strips should over hang the joists a couple of inches on each side, and preferably have the overhanging edges bent down so that water will run off easier. I did this on my deck 6 years ago and the joists still look almost new. Oh, the building inspector saw this and freaked out- absolutely LOVED it! It was an easy pass that day.

 

[Automatic Slim]

first things first:

1. Secure the support columns. Current config as 4 bolts (2 bolts for each 3x beam) going through about 2" of material to hold and only supporting 1 of those beam boards. Jack it up and slip a 4x6 under it on all 3 beams if same and secure (many methods).

2. Now that you have "adequate" (still not ideal), you can get on the deck w/o fear of falling and becoming victim. The front notched, kerf board will need complete removal as well as the railing system and all deck boards.

3. You can either trim back the deck to the support beam or no more than 12" beyond, unless you plan to cantelvier more support for the extension. The "rotten" joists probably can be sistered w/ new wood on each side.

4. Pull a level string and cut joists. Add a new header board. This will give you a temporary square deck.

5. As suggested block the deck to solidify down the middle, or run additional support under floor joists and adhere joists to support, a 2x8 should be enough and probably be best to add additional columns (x3) and bolt two 2x8 on each side, as well as adhere column to joist. Secure all joists boards to underneath support w/ screws toed in on each side. Blocking would be OK, but you are carry heavy weight on one support and probably lag bolts attached to the house. (would be wise to look at lags or security on house to investigate any pull out) If pull out, get bigger lag and retighten once deck is under firm support.

6. If you want to keep the obtruded edge, make false front (remember anything past 12" beyond support beam will need additional) and secure to the replaced head board by blocking technique.

7. Posts will need additional blocking tied into the header board.

Additional:

If your threshold allows it, recommened using a 2x dimension for decking, as the joist spacing becomes expansive on 45 degree w/ the 5/4. But will work with adequate support - may be a bit bouncy once deck settles in.

Some suggestions, GL (just BS'ing earlier - sorry to hear bout your delimma) If you were my neighbor we would have that dude licked in a weekend and about 500 buck and a case of beer - the beer would be for me, LOL.

 

[gahrajmahal]

Thanks everyone for your opinions and suggestions. I really appreciate it! According to everyone the failure seems to be a combination of possible faulty lumber. Lack of yearly maintainance by me, and questionable building practice by the guy I hired to do the job.

I thought I'd add a few photos of the front porch I talked about so you can see what that looks like.

Some of the problem areas I will fix prior to scrubbing, pressure washing and re-staining. A few of the screws broke or pulled out due to the wider boards twisting. Overall, It has held up pretty well I think. It's a few years older than the other deck.

As I have been thinking about this project I remember the old deck and how everyone who came out to quote the new one was appalled how underbuilt the original one was. It had 4 x 4 posts with 2 x 6's nailed alongside, 2 x 8 joists on 16 inch centers and a doubled 2 x 8 for the main beam. It used 2 x 6 pressure treated for the decking. It was the same size as the new one with the exception I added two foot in width at the center giving us more room to get around the table. That is where the curve came from. I just looked up my old drawings and the deck is 27 ft. wide, 8 ft. at the sides and 10 ft at the middle of the curve. The reason we had the deck installed in the first place is we hosted a wedding at our house. I suppose there were 15 to 20 people out there at that time on the new deck in 2005.

Well, I will continue to update the post for all who are interested in the progress. Your comments not only help me, but anyone who is having a deck built or is maintaining their old one.

 

[Treeman]

I think your problem might be due to poor product exacerbated by poor construction techniques. No amount of sealer will prevent rot if there is insufficient fungicide in the boards to start with (unless you achieve 100% water proofness.....impossible).

If this was my problem, I would pursue having the responsible parties fix the situation at their expense. Start at the top and let the poo flow downhill: Insurance company.....contractor......lumber supplier......lumber processor.

I would start out by contacting the USDA Forest Service Forest Products Laboratory in Wisconsin for leads to assessing the lumber: http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/ I'm not sure about OSU, but I know that MSU has researchers directly involved with pressure treatment processes (PM me if want the contact).

- With the switch from CCA to ACQ starting in 2004, you may have gotten some "in between" lumber that was insufficiently treated. Or, maybe the contractor got a "deal" on some otherwise poor product. Who knows.

- 2x lumber "should" be treated every bit as well as larger stock (not superficial, as stated above). Ground contact status is due to the chemical retention level. CCA common grades were .40 and .60 retention. ACQ is different, but still comes in many different levels.

- The sealers touted above are to slow down the effects of wetting/drying: warping, cupping, checking, splitting, etc.. Not to prevent rotting (although it will assist some).

- Rot fungus cannot grow in lumber with adequate fungicide. Water alone will not cause rot. In spite of the poor construction techniques that might have encouraged more water, your deck should have lasted much longer.

- No shrinkage of the deck boards appears to be another red flag, unless the boards were very old and bone dry during construction.

So, it depends how much fight you want to put up, how assertive your are (in a good way), and how much money you want to spend.

Has the contractor cooperated with any useful information??

Best of luck!

 

[gahrajmahal]

Hey, AutomaticSlim I see where you are going with this. I do plan to strip off all the decking and start over. I probably won't go at a 45 deg. angle. That was at the original builders insistence so he wouldn't have any **** joints. I was also puzzled by the posts only supporting one of the three support beams. I will fix that. I will replace the curved face board and add support to the railings. I will provide a photo of the bare structure prior to decking it so you can see the cantilevered area is not that large. I don't think there is space for 2" decking under the french door thresholds. The ledger board appears to be sufficiently attached as the builder was especially horrified by the original ledger attachment, but I will double check.

Your checklist is much appreciated!

 

[Average_Joe]

To create the curve, I would use 1x(10?) and glue/nail 4 layers together with staggered joints.

 

[gahrajmahal]

Hi All, time for an update.

I visited the lumberyard where my contractor purchased the wood. I had a sample of the rotted lumber and a copy of the contract from my deck builder. I spoke with one of the salesmen behind the counter. He was not very interested in helping me until I asked if he thought it was reasonable that the product they sell would last for only 8 years. He took my copy of the contract and told me he would give it to the owner for review. He wrote the owners name on his business card adn gave it to me. Once I had the name I decided to email the owner direct with copies of the photos in this post.

Well early Monday morning I received a phone call at work from the owner. We had a nice discussion and he told me he would try and determine which wholesaler had provided him with the lumber. Of all the years he was in business he only had one other rot claim and it took several months to clear up. And the rot was much smaller than what I had. During another call he disclosed what he thought was the reason for the problem. It was a very cold winter and the wood was frozen when they tried to put the preservant into the lumber, but since it was frozen it could not penetrate as it should. He also seemed very concerned about the viability of the whole structure since the rot was also in the cross beams and the notched facing board.

Needless to say I was happy with these initial conversations. And that is where the action stopped. The promised calls did not occur. The promised site visit to my house did not happen. So, I wrote a nice email where I suggested I might have to get third parties involved just to move this along. What I am wanting to happen is for them to tell me where this warranty claim stands. Are thay going to cover some of it? Or all of it?

I recieved a call first thing this morning after the email. He told me he would be here this morning along with the lumber rep. He was going to call as soon as they reviewed the deck.

Here it is this evening and I have no evidence they were here and he did not call as promised.

Lesson learned so far...

If someone is building a deck for you with pressure treated lumber get in writing the lumber suppplier.

From the lumber save some of the tags stapled to the boards. This will have the Lot number. Sometimes this will be printed directly on the boards. If that is the case get a section with the number and save that.

I still don't know what the "limited warranty" is. Get a written copy of that before cutting your final check.

Originally I was not worried about the whole structure, but after having the conversation with the lumber yard owner I'm not so sure.

I will update the post as more develops. I appreciate all the helpful suggestions so far.

 

[Automatic Slim]

Agree, something ain't right. Never x 2 . Gl

 

[rburke65]

Do you have an Atty. friend that might send a little letter of inquisition as to the status of your situation. That might move things off the "bubble".

 

[cburnscrx]

many problems here.

the manner in which the support joists is secured (3x 12") does not give the intended support. Never "line up" joists, and the attachment is all wrong.

Why notch out the header board? IMO, should have been a "false" front.

Need support at the 1/2 pt on this deck as well, span too big for only 1, IMO.

Wood needs to "cup" up so snow loads, water dont collect.

PT wood went through transformation in 2004 w/ the "new" wood. However, i have "never" seen joints remain that tight if installed w/ new PT wood, the saturation shrinks and boards will open up and raidius decking has radius edge as well. I'm not sure that is PT wood, but it can rot.

This^^^

 

[SteveCh]

I agree with the views re: the problems evident here. I won't repeat them but will say that even a fairly new carpenter would know not to construct an outdoor thing such as this in that manner. He or they should not be in business, regardless of any lumber issues, if there turn out to be any.

 

[wssix99]

So, I wrote a nice email where I suggested I might have to get third parties involved just to move this along.

This could work against you. Unless you know who the wood manufacturer is (hence, who warranties it) and can prove it, then you won't get anywhere with the legal option. If you have a rep who is willing to step up and look at it, then you are a lot better than you could be.

You are also fortunate that the lumberyard is being so accommodating. Getting a rep to make a trip in a couple of days is pretty good. These reps get sick, get held up on other jobs, etc. so you may just need to reschedule. The wood company will genuinely care about your situation, but almost all of their regular customers do more business with them than your project did.

Once you can confirm which company made the product and which warranty you are covered by, things will happen much faster and I'd expect you'd get other people at the company to work with. (other than the rep)

 

[WVBrady]

...Wood needs to "cup" up so snow loads, water dont collect.

PT wood went through transformation in 2004 w/ the "new" wood. However, i have "never" seen joints remain that tight if installed w/ new PT wood, the saturation shrinks and boards will open up and raidius decking has radius edge as well...

I have had two different results for this. I had read in a magazine that one should turn the boards so that looking at the ends the "cup" is up. The thinking is that as the board dries out the board will cup in the opposite direction from the end grain so that it will not hold water. I also left no gap, thinking that when the wood dried out it would shrink. Both were wrong.

Then I put in a deck with a roof over it. This time I put the cup down and left a gap between the boards, but got the opposite results.

I think on the deck, the boards were fairly dry and actually absorbed water. On the deck, they were shielded from the rain and they dried out.

 

[Automatic Slim]

The cup refers to the natural grain of the wood in relation to grain towards bark of tree.

As the wood dries from pt tx it shrinks 100 percent of the time. It's wet, then drys, it shrinks. I have never seen pt wood buckle and I've put it down tighter than ****,s hatband.

Edit. However if wood comes from outside lumber yard and already dried, I do use a framing square or 16 p nail for gap.

Just mo.

 

[Burgerkong]

I think the contractor should've bolted the beam on both sides of the post instead of notching out half of the post. Or perhaps tripled up the beams and sit it on top with a post cap. And also, I don't see any ties between the joists and the beams, are they secured to the beam in any way? That joist spacing looks a bit wide, perhaps 16" which is on the limit if your decking runs diagonally.

But what do I know, I just spent a lot of time on the internet reading, and am in progress of building my own deck (somewhere in the 'Free Parking' subforum).

 

[Automatic Slim]

The cup refers to the natural grain of the wood in relation to grain towards bark of tree.

As the wood dries from pt tx it shrinks 100 percent of the time. It's wet, then drys, it shrinks. I have never seen pt wood buckle and I've put it down tighter than ****,s hatband.

Edit. However if wood comes from outside lumber yard and already dried, I do use a framing square or 16 p nail for gap. So agree there

Just mo.

 

[Zeke]

Decks should not be nailed from the top. That is why the joists rotted. You already know about the rim joist. Using pine was the other mistake, treated or not.

 

[Burgerkong]

Decks should not be nailed from the top. That is why the joists rotted. You already know about the rim joist. Using pine was the other mistake, treated or not.

As long as proper nails/screws were used, fastening from the top isn't too big of a problem, unless water is allowed to sit. Most pressure treated wood is pine, more specifically 'Spruce-Pine-Fir'.

 

[Zeke]

Difference of opinion. I use under deck attachments and redwood.

 

[gahrajmahal]

The saga continues...

I recieved an email from the lumber yard owner. He and the treater visited the house and the deck while we were at work. They determined the deck boards were treated incorrectly and have agreed to replace those on their dime. Yea!! They also will replace the face board that was notched by the installer. He also said the cuts should have been sealed. I sent along this photo.

and asked if it was possible that the joists were also improperly treated. It would seem to me that the 2 x 8 if treated correctly would have resisted this much rot damage. He said he would try to get the treater to pay for the 5 or 6 rotted joists too. The majority of the framework still looks good visually.

At this point I am not convinced the structure was treated correctly but as this is 8 years later I feel I must take what I can get. Regardless, I am removing the whole thing and starting over. It is true that to replace the rotted joists and put on the new decking would make this a pretty simple job, I just can't imagine going thru this again in 8 years.

Homeowners Insurance
The next step I have taken after getting the news I will recieve some of the lumber under warranty is to call my homeowners insurance. We haven't made a claim in the 20 years we have lived here. The insurance agents are very nice on the phone, and very sympathetic to the problem, but as best as they can tell outside decks are not covered. They do not cover against shoddy workmanship, bad materials or water damage unless caused by a flood. None the less, I am having an insurance adjuster come out to appraise the situation to see if there is anything homeowners will cover on this.

Itemized list

I spent the morning photographing the deck and measuring so I could rebuild the deck after it comes down. The general build of the thing is OK, and size wise is just right for our house. A few questions and your comments would be appreciated.

Does anybody have a good suggestion of how to get the old posts out of the ground?

I put a level on all the joists. They are all perfectly level or fall 1/2 bubble towards the house. Shouldn't it have some drop away from the house? And what is the recommended drop?

Along with putting gaps between the boards, I would like to put a gap between the decking (I want to run it horizontal with the house) and the ledger board. I at least think the siding should have a gap up and away from the decking.

The builder did at least use flashing on top of the ledger board. I am thinking of changing this to a waterproof membrane. I read the new pressure treated reacts with aluminum and to not use it as a flashing. Plastic flashing?

Since there is so much "potentially" good lumber left in this structure, I hate to put it all in the landfill. Do you all have any good projects to make out of any of this? Picnic table comes to mind, but what else you got?

I will keep updating as I am sure other deck builders / owners are learning along with me.

Thanks!

 

[Too_Many_Tools]

For possible reuse of the lumber, think about small outside buildings.

Does anyone have links to discussion sites that discuss deck building?

Thanks

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Put lots of space between those boards, it will be much easier to clean and will pass water readily, and if stuff does catch between the boards, it can easily be cleaned out.

Charles

 

[gahrajmahal]

I'm with you Charles. I will attach links and sources as I move ahead Too Many Tools. The latest news is from the insurance adjuster. Rather than come out my wife took his call. He explained we should look at our policy, that it does not cover rot or poor construction. The only way it would be covered is fire, a car knocking it down, a tree falling on it or other accident. So, it looks like I am on the hook for tearing down and rebuilding it. There goes my summer.

 

[sselander]

If you use wood for the new deck, make sure you use a penetrating oil finish instead of a solid.

Penofin makes a variety of products that work well.

I used the one made for pressure treated, but they have one for hardwoods as well.
http://www.penofin.com/

I went with Trex for the decking.

 

[Automatic Slim]

that deck has plenty o' life left in the structure. i would not tear it down.

post looks fine, support beam looks fine. Not a tear down, imo - but understand. But why make things more difficult?

Steps:

1. Tear off deck boards and disassemble railing. Burn deck boards and have bonfire party.

2. Add support under beam to ensure all 3 are supported by attaching another post on the side and support bottom with flat block to give more ground support. In addition, add additional support beams at the 1/2 way mark by same technique.

3. Run string and square deck front off.

4. Replace any joists that are rotten. Burn old.

5. Secure squared header board to form structure of deck.

6. Build "false" front and block into squared header board.

7. Block all deck joists at the 4 & 8 or incremental sections of deck.

8. Seal and stain joists or use aftermarket pressure treated sealer if you desire.

9. Added measure: cap joists with aluminum rain deterent.

10. Start decking, but use 3" screws, the deckmate screws are pretty good for value at the orange store. NO MORE NAILING!!

11. Put up railing and if still fascinated by the eye candy of the rounded edge, secure by bolts and blocking tight into false front. (remember if false front=more than 12" need to cantevalier to posts for added support).

12. Enjoy.

 

[Randy in Maine]

Not legal to burn treated wood in most states.

It might take you out of the gene pool.