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Show Me Your Air Compressor And DB

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bull_duck

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What does it do that justifies it being "green"? Also, why is this in a thread about noise and not in a thread about Bel Aire compressors?

Review LEED criteria regarding "green" and "sustainable."

This thread is not about Belaire. It is about air compressor DB. Belaire has db, and manuf claims a low db. Low db appears to be obtained by placement of an ABS cap on top. So this thread can include Belaire.

Now because of your reply, this thread also includes LEED w.r.t. noise.
 
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williaty

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Manuf claims are "... designed for a greener workspace."

I like green and sustainable. But price matters too.

The difference between the two units appears to me to be in the ABS cap on the QE318VE. $900 is a stiff price for a plastic cap with breathing vents.

Is my assessment correct? Price of green, &/or capitalizing on green?

This thread is not about Belaire. It is about air compressor DB. Belaire has db, and manuf claims a low db. Low db appears to be obtained by placement of an ABS cap on top. So this thread can include Belaire.

Now because of your reply, this thread also includes LEED w.r.t. noise.

You asked if this thing was just ripping you off because of the "Green" label (odd, since this thread wasn't about green compressors). You need to know what makes it green. If it's "green" because the shroud is made of recycled pop bottles then, yes, you're getting ripped off. Frankly, I think applying the green label to a compressor is BS, but I digress. If there's a well-defined standard for noise to get LEED certification, then the only thing to do is to look it up and find out if the requirements are good enough to satisfy you. Generally, the requirements for LEED certification are not well thought out enough to actually result in a good product, so you do actually need to do your homework and research them.
 
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bull_duck

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You asked if this thing was just ripping you off because of the "Green" label (odd, since this thread wasn't about green compressors). You need to know what makes it green. If it's "green" because the shroud is made of recycled pop bottles then, yes, you're getting ripped off. Frankly, I think applying the green label to a compressor is BS, but I digress. If there's a well-defined standard for noise to get LEED certification, then the only thing to do is to look it up and find out if the requirements are good enough to satisfy you. Generally, the requirements for LEED certification are not well thought out enough to actually result in a good product, so you do actually need to do your homework and research them.

it is about db. Low db makes it "green." I make no accusation of ripoff. My question is about how the lower db is achieved. The ABS cap? If only the ABS cap then I can make my own.

You can't answer the question.
 

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All

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Bullduck, I agree with Williaty that debating the specifics about the Belaire compressor derails your "show me your compressor DB" survey a bit.

On the other hand, since the Belaire claims to be a "quieted" model, and is one of the few to market an actual DB rating, I can see why you brought it up.

I'll add to the confusion (and keep your thread alive) by pointing out another reciprocating compressor manufacturer (Ingersoll Rand) that did the same type of sound enclosure trick 11 years ago with their TS Series line of reciprocating two stage compressors. These looked on the outside a lot like their Rotary Screw line (Now called UP6 series), but the TS series was actually a recip with a twin cylinder pump of the shared head Siamese type, called an "enblock" design (NOT a V cylinder type T30).

Ingersoll Rand didn't just put a box around the motor and enblock pump. They engineered an entirely arrangement, using a squirrel cage centrifugal blower instead of just a flywheel fan. This blower is very different from the typical way reciprocated compressors move air across themselves, and was very key to totally enclosing the business end of the TS Series compressors.

Another key differentiator integrated a miniature air cooled aftercooler coil that sat INBETWEEN the motor and the pump in a TRANSVERSE direction, not behind the traditional flywheel in a parallel direction as is typical of most reciprocating compressors.

The pressure switch, pressure guage, and pressure relief valve were also enclosed and incorporated into the front face of the housing into an "instrumentation panel". This made the unit look very similar to the Rotary Screw line up, at half the price.

The enclosure was metal, with inch thick high density open cell foam lining all interior surfaces, including the baffle that separated the motor from the pump and aftercooler.

The enclosed TS5/SS5 through TS15 compressor by IR was one of the very few RECIPROCATING compressors that I am aware of other than the Belaire and some Champion models to publish the db sound level measurements in their marketing materials. (Ignoring that guy in Canada who sells so called made in USA compressors on ebay who changed his name from mimicking the goodwill of a long standing American truck transmission and axle company to a colder sounding name... but like always, uses Chinese import pumps and types more than I do).

Ingersoll Rand's published db measurements for the enclosed vs. unenclosed version of same TS Series compressor:

5 HP , 17 CFM
83 db UN-enclosed
69 db Enclosed

7.5 HP, 25 CFM
83 db Un-enclosed
70 db Enclosed

Source: Ingersoll Rand: December 28, 2002

So, how much does this 14 db drop cost?

It doesn't matter. Talk about "quiet"... Ingersoll Rand "quietly" ceased making these soon after introducing them. The entire TS line is not available at all through IR, and only the NON-Enclosed versions of the TS series lasted through the retail channels such as Sears, Tractor Supply, Northern Tool, and Grainger. No "enclosures" or fully packaged options are available.

Also, the TS7.5 was dropped, leaving only the TS5 and the TS3 (3HP, 10 CFM). Again, no enclosure.

I say all this to point out the fact that IR spent a lot of time and money "thinking INSIDE the box" to make this special foam lined enclosure with the centrifugal blower system. And soon afterwards, it was discontinued. To me, that says something. I'm not sure WHAT it says, but it says something.

In the meantime, the Type 30 design has been chugging along now for 85 years and counting, with tweaks here and there. IR's 75th anniversary edition of the Type 30 was produced in 2003. There is something to be said there too... about what is tried and true.

I'd be cautious about that shroud that Belair has got on their compressor. What kind of heat load does that shroud induce?

Finally, Champion has a shroud for some of their reciprocating compressors in their "Evolution" line as well as their high dollar oil free line. I can't get Champion's website to work well on my computer right now, so you can look them up more easily on your own. Champion advertises a sound level as low as 66 for one of their oil lubricated reciprocating compressors in the Evolution line. I do not know the technical details of how Champion achieved (or measured) this.

We should email their tech department a link to a cell phone app we all agree on, and have them test. (Rest easy Willaity... I'm only joking. Sort of. Hmmm, now that I think about it, wouldn't that be a riot to ask, just to see if they would?)
 

alxdgr8

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By no means am I saying that we would all have to be capable of laboratory-grade reference measurements before we could draw useful conclusions. As consumers, there's simply no need to measure these compressors down to the tenth of a dB. However, there IS a need for us to be able to measure them precisely and accurately enough to be able to actually show real differences between different compressor models. I would propose that a 3dB worst-case error (which is a terrible, terrible measurement by professional standards!) would be entirely sufficient for hobbyists trying to collect data on compressors. Smartphones are simply incapable of meeting the standard of every phone reading within 3dB of each other. However, even the cheapest $20 SPL meter off of Amazon will EASILY achieve this level of agreement.

3dB is even overkill for hobbyist. Most humans can't hear a 5dB difference in sound pressure level.

Even with $20 SPL meters, it would be a completely useless measurement for any qualitative comparison. Compressors are narrowband sources with strong lobes, so an SPL measurement is going to vary several dB at various angles even in an anechoic environment. Placing that in a garage environment (very reflective, especially at compressor frequencies) and a pressure measurement (even with Type 0/1/etc. instrumentation) is useless.

A sound power measurement would be much more useful, but a p-p or p-u intensity probe isn't exactly in everyone's toolkit ;) You could make power arc measurements with the $20 meter, but even then the environment is going to introduce so much error it's still completely useless to compare.

Finding a manufacturer level of a compressor similar to your own and comparing it to other manufacturer levels (tested to ISO/ASTM standards) is going to be the only useful comparison between different compressors.

Too many people over emphasize the importance of dB's anyways. There's no single metric to characterize noise. Manufacturer's, especially if they don't state which standard they tested to, can make their dB level pretty much whatever they want so I would never trust them. Just like HP ratings on tools and cars, they can be manipulated.
 

tsgtdan

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May 20, 2013
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Hey guys, good to be here.
I have a problem with a Sears Best Comprssor. I can't find the model #, so I can't order the part I think I need.
I think I need the Valve Plate, where the flapper (my terminology) is that keeps the pressure from building back up into the compressor and lugging down the motor, until it trips circuit breaker.
Looking at the side of the tank with the sears decal,
to the left is the comprssor, in the center is the pipeing,2 meters, outlet valve, spring relief valve, and the pressure adjuster. To the right is the 2horse Howard electric motor, 3450rpm. Its wired for 110 with no info on motor data plate about 110/220. As you look at it from this side the belt is on the rear. There is a plate on the tank that is very hard to read. It is a horizontal tank, no wheels or handle.
I have seen a picture somewhere on the compressor posts that looks like mine. I think it was about the gentlman saying he had 2 compressors he could buy and posted the pictures, but I'm not sure.
I'm not sure how to post pictures,get the picture from my wifes camera to my laptop, I guess I have to wait for one of my sons to come up.
Thanks for any help.
x usaf, as the name implies.(Vietnam vet) in country.
God Bless
Tsgtdan
 
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bull_duck

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Hey guys, good to be here.
I have a problem with a Sears Best Comprssor. I can't find the model #, so I can't order the part I think I need....
Thanks for any help.
x usaf, as the name implies.(Vietnam vet) in country.
God Bless
Tsgtdan

Yo, Vietnam Vet. I have attached an image of my former Sears Craftsman, sold last week. Even though I am hearing impaired from bang bang boom if you know what I mean, the Sears noise maker made my ears hurt. Folks on this thread are about dbA. Best to do two things:

(1) Begin a thread with a title like "Sears Craftsman Broke And Need Help." My experience here is that the forum folks are ready to assist.

(2) Post it for sale today on CraigsList, get some money out versus putting money in, don't look back and get on with life, and put the $ earned toward a new compressor.

The second above is what I did, and am loving it. It was worth a few hundred net to decrease my db by more than 15 logarithmic.
 

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bull_duck

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BullDuck... did you buy that BelAire?

I found a BelAire on CraigsList. Over 4 years old and the guy wanted as much as new via Internet. I gave him a very reasonable offer, and he turned me down. I explained to him how I arrived at the price. After flately tirning me down, i then bought a new Husky.

I have a thread on the Husky here. Direct replacement for the Craftsman, and 15 dbA more quiet.

The guy subsequently contacted me and thought the offer price on reflection that I had offered was reasonable. My "parade had already passed by."

As a child, the breakfast room at my parents house had wall paper with quotes printed on it. I remember many of those quotes. One was "there is more fish in the sea than has ever come out of it." 'Course, Kenny Rogers also had a good one: "know when to walk away, know when to run." Economists would say "if you have an inelastic demand curve, you will pay up your a$&s." Actually, I just made up the Economists' saying; but you get the idea.
 
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All

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Bull Duck, I wish I had your ability to walk away like that. My problem is, by the time I actually arrive to look at the thing, I've invested so much time finding the "ideal" buy, and I've invested so much fuel in my truck to get there, and I'm so worried about offending people with what they might construe as a low ball offer (I hate when that is done to me) that I all too often cave and cough up more money.
 
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bull_duck

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Bull Duck, I wish I had your ability to walk away like that. My problem is, by the time I actually arrive to look at the thing, I've invested so much time finding the "ideal" buy, and I've invested so much fuel in my truck to get there, and I'm so worried about offending people with what they might construe as a low ball offer (I hate when that is done to me) that I all too often cave and cough up more money.

I agree. I am not a bottom feeder. I actually enjoy the research via Internet more than the actual acquisition. I offer what the market has demonstrated to be a transaction price.
 

Zrexxer

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All the bitchfighting and *******-for-distance aside, I decided to try mine and see what result I got. Running the specified app on an iPhone 4, exactly 5 ft measured distance at about chest height, my Champion 80 gallon two stage with an R15 pump averaged 74 dB with the garage closed.
 
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bull_duck

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All the bitchfighting and *******-for-distance aside, I decided to try mine and see what result I got. Running the specified app on an iPhone 4, exactly 5 ft measured distance at about chest height, my Champion 80 gallon two stage with an R15 pump averaged 74 dB with the garage closed.

Thank you.
 
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bull_duck

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I began a separate thread on the recent purchase of a Husky 30 gal air compressor here. That thread is not focused on dbA; rather, the choice, getting it home, lifting off the pickup truck bed.

Relevant to this thread, I measured the db of both the 30 gal Craftsman and the 30 gal Husky at the same location in the garage, same iPhone, same UI SPL app, etc. The Husky came in at 15 db less than the Craftsman. I sold the Craftsman in anticipation of purchasing a new air compressor; the net cost to me for the loss of 15 db in the $300s was worth it.

Relevant to this thread is the tubing ears I placed on the new Husky. I had read on this forum that placement of Tigon tubing (flexible, clear, inert) on the air cleaner would lower the db. the idea is to extend the air inlet. See attachment.

Again, using my modest testing equipment I was unable to confirm the hypothesis that lengthening the air inlet would lower db. My hearing senses - what is left of them - indicate that the pitch of the sound is lowered. The longer the tube, holding diameter constant, the lower the pitch. Think of pipes on an air organ. Decrease the radius, pitch should go up to.

The tubing I used was left over from my install of my BAKflip VP onto my new F150 Limited (Tuxedo Black). The tubing is optional as a drain tube to direct water away from the interior truck bed. I found I did not need to install them. I kept them and fortunate for me they were the correct radius for this application. So I did not choose their length. Their length is as received from BAKflip.
 

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ChickenPoxPie

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I know it is years after this thread was originally posted, but I came across it when I was googling around looking for a relatively quiet but powerful air compressor.

First I want to say to Bull Duck that I greatly appreciate your idea about posting the db measurements plus make and model. It would have been beautiful to land on this page, scroll through the posts and find the compressor for me.

Second, williaty has pointed out the problem and has an indisputable point.

Third, super entertaining.

Fourth , I don't know how reliable the average member of this board is - but I may have a solution.

At one point is was proposed that everyone would have to go buy the same model of sound meter.
Well if we all shared one meter it would cost one willing guy $60 and everybody else $5 for flat rate shipping from one member to the next. Take your reading in a few minutes, package it up nice and safe, send it along to the next guy.
It could also be funded via crowdsourcing rather than one guy.

Being that it's a fairly useless tool to the average joe, it would be relatively low risk that someone would want to just keep it.
But I'm sure before long out of laziness someone would fail to forward it, and it'll die a death on some jerk's workbench as a paint stirrer. At least we'll know 2 or 3 guys' readings by then.

So let me try to address the problems in advance:
Plain old thieves: only board members with 2 years membership eligible to receive meter.
Who gets it next: a chain of custody will be published with member user names in the thread for public shaming purposes when they fail to forward.
Don't want wackos to know my address: they already do. But if you insist, general delivery to the post office in your town. And or each member gets the next guy's address via PM, this way only one wacko knows your address.
 

finn

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The op's proposal sounds like Amateurs Hour at its finest.

Having worked with noise regulations and testing methodology, there is no way that data collected by random people in uncontrolled environments will have anything other than anecdotal value.

To the op: you shouldn't have slept through science class in the eight grade.
 

williaty

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The op's proposal sounds like Amateurs Hour at its finest.

Having worked with noise regulations and testing methodology, there is no way that data collected by random people in uncontrolled environments will have anything other than anecdotal value.

To the op: you shouldn't have slept through science class in the eight grade.
It's quite frustrating how often I have to say that on the internet :(
 
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