Ran some conduit for a boatload of additional outlets...

[Burgerkong]

Branched off from my fluorescent fixtures install here.

Using a EMT bender isn't rocket science I've found out. Some practice and I'm bending flawless box offsets, but I still need to draw and plan out some of the more complex bends, like compound angles, multiple offsets etc.

Managed to complete all the necessary bends today and mounted half of the junction boxes. Will move some of the stuff and mount the other half tomorrow. So far, I am planning on running 3 single gang junction boxes along each of the side walls of my single car garage. The workbench area will have two additional boxes just in case. Luckily I have them separated into two circuits, since I did not install a central vacuum. Both are on 15 amp breakers and so far I haven't tripped them, but the wiring is rated for 20 amps, so if need be I can swap out the breakers.

In Canadeh, we aren't required to install GFCI receptacles in the garage so I may skip it altogether. Installed a stub for the planned overhead bench lights. Don't know if I am hardwiring them in or plugging them in, so I will put a blank cover on it first.

An important tip, make sure you have the right hacksaw blades for thin wall tubing (24-32TPI, I ended up buying 32TPI blades and it was like cutting butter and a lot quieter)! I had a couple 18TPI blades and thought why not and found out the teeth on them gets destroyed in no time and loves to catch on the conduit. I have a nice gash through my thumb because it skipped as I was pulling back. Ugh.

You can see my learning journey in the pictures. I did the run by the hose reel first and didn't know how to bend box offsets, so I used an offset connector. Looks amateurish I know! FWIW I prefer offsetting with the bender standing on its handle and sticking the conduit under my armpit, a lot more control that way and I don't have to peer down and see the angle.

This tiny piece took way too long to plan!

 

[Norcal]

Before you install anymore of those handy/gem boxes, have someone smack each one of your fingers 10 times with a 5 pound hammer, then if you think it is a good idea to use them, go ahead. Those boxes are a hallmark of a DIY job, use 4 square boxes, some call them 1900 boxes, & a raised cover & wiring job will be a lot easier & not trying to shove 25 pounds of **** in a 5 pound bag.

As you can guess, I hate the damn things, in the last few years have used exactly 2 & they were the best choice in that instance.

 

[tfi racing]

You're doing fine so far,you do need to do some strapping though,within a foot of each box and no more than five feet away from that basically.GFCI protection is not required but if it makes you feel warm and comfy at night,go right ahead.Those 1110 boxes are ok,but as Norcal said 4" square boxes and taylor style covers would make things easier and better looking,and give you more options for devices.When you do install your receptacles,you will find out why using that middle ko is not the best idea...

 

[Burgerkong]

I'll let you guys know tomorrow when I attempt to wire everything up . I think it should be fine, I did a trial run and it seems like it'd work. I figured I wouldn't be upgrading much so I put in all the outlets I think I'd need plus a bit more. 4" boxes would be more ideal but they eat up more space (which I don't have much of since I plan to use the walls for pegboards etc).

Yeah, I know I'm missing the clips/straps, I plan on screwing them in last after all the electrical is done just in case I needed to change anything.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Before you install anymore of those handy/gem boxes, have someone smack each one of your fingers 10 times with a 5 pound hammer, then if you think it is a good idea to use them, go ahead. Those boxes are a hallmark of a DIY job, use 4 square boxes, some call them 1900 boxes, & a raised cover & wiring job will be a lot easier & not trying to shove 25 pounds of **** in a 5 pound bag.

As you can guess, I hate the damn things, in the last few years have used exactly 2 & they were the best choice in that instance.

times two on this.

 

[LXCam]

That's a fine job for a newbi!. 10,000% agreed on upping to a 4s box. But as far as strapping, I can't speak for Canada eh, but in the state's NEC requires a strap within 3ft of a connector and no more then 10ft in spacing. That one n five deal is actually one and four for romex and flex. Anyhow keep up the good work, hopefully by the time your done all those brand spanking new tools will look like you've actually used them before

 

[A_Pmech]

Nice conduit bending work Brendan.

I love handy boxes! They have rounded corners for safety!

 

[LXCam]

Ya know I'm not sure if you know how to bend to a measurement but if not here's a couple pointers.

Bending a stub. Facing the end of the pipe that you want to end at a specific measurement. Measure the length of the stub then deduct 5" (this is for 1/2" conduit). There is a pointer on your bender right behind the cradle that holds the conduit, line that up with the deducted mark and bend towards you.

If you need to bend away from your stub, add 1/2 the deduct measurement in the case 2.5", line up that same mark and facing away from your stub bend towards you. This is critical for back to back bends.

If you need to make a offset. Make your marks double the distance of the offset and bend to 30 degrees, always keep your bender facing the same direction.

 

[Norcal]

Nice conduit bending work Brendan.

I love handy boxes! They have rounded corners for safety!

So do most brands of 4 squares.

 

[sparky36000]

EMT is within 3' of a box and no more than 10' apart.

358.30(A) (A) Securely Fastened. EMT shall be securely fastened in
place at least every 3 m (10 ft). In addition, each EMT run
between termination points shall be securely fastened
within 900 mm (3 ft) of each outlet box, junction box, device
box, cabinet, conduit body, or other tubing termination.

You're doing fine so far,you do need to do some strapping though,within a foot of each box and no more than five feet away from that basically.GFCI protection is not required but if it makes you feel warm and comfy at night,go right ahead.Those 1110 boxes are ok,but as Norcal said 4" square boxes and taylor style covers would make things easier and better looking,and give you more options for devices.When you do install your receptacles,you will find out why using that middle ko is not the best idea...

 

[Speedy Petey]

Before you install anymore of those handy/gem boxes, have someone smack each one of your fingers 10 times with a 5 pound hammer, then if you think it is a good idea to use them, go ahead. Those boxes are a hallmark of a DIY job, use 4 square boxes, some call them 1900 boxes, & a raised cover & wiring job will be a lot easier & not trying to shove 25 pounds of **** in a 5 pound bag.

As you can guess, I hate the damn things, in the last few years have used exactly 2 & they were the best choice in that instance.

X10 on this!

Besides being a pain, handy boxes are FAR from complaint as far as fill goes. They are WAY too small for pretty much anything but a single 2-wire cable and a blank plate.

 

[Burgerkong]

EMT is within 3' of a box and no more than 10' apart.

358.30(A) (A) Securely Fastened. EMT shall be securely fastened in
place at least every 3 m (10 ft). In addition, each EMT run
between termination points shall be securely fastened
within 900 mm (3 ft) of each outlet box, junction box, device
box, cabinet, conduit body, or other tubing termination.

That's what I used, the CEC specifies 1 meter minimum (~3.3 feet). Although I don't think I've ever reached the 1 meter limit.

With regards to box fill, I am using 12 gauge THHN, my box volume is 229mL (14cu-in) and as per code I am allowed 8 conductors maximum. Every splice/wire nut connection I deduct one conductor. For example at the bench light stub I will have a total of 9 wires running through the junction box, 3 from the previous box, 3 to the last box and 3 up to the junction box directly underneath the shelf. I will therefore have to join up 3 sets of wires at that box, making 3, 3-wire splices/connections (subtract 3 conductors). Therefore my total is 6 conductors, which is under the maximum.

So I think I am fine?

I like to see it as training for my next garage. I am most definitely not a professional. And yes, while the small 1110 boxes may be hard to work with, I think it is appropriate for a small space in that it doesn't dominate the walls IMO.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

With regards to box fill, I am using 12 gauge THHN, my box volume is 229mL (14cu-in) and as per code I am allowed 8 conductors maximum. Every splice/wire nut connection I deduct one conductor. For example at the bench light stub I will have a total of 9 wires running through the junction box, 3 from the previous box, 3 to the last box and 3 up to the junction box directly underneath the shelf. I will therefore have to join up 3 sets of wires at that box, making 3, 3-wire splices/connections (subtract 3 conductors). Therefore my total is 6 conductors, which is under the maximum.

This must be peculiar to the CEC. NEC doesn't allow anything like this.

Are any of these wires grounds? If they are all hots or neutrals, then you have, quite simply, nine wires. Splicing wires together does not make a single wire (not per NEC at least), it is still considered two wires. Any wire that enters the box is a wire. One in, two out, thats three wires.

Charles

 

[Burgerkong]

Yeah, I have 3 grounds since I didn't want to use the EMT as a ground (I would be comfortable with that if I used compression fittings, but instead I got set screw fittings).

 

[Burgerkong]

Here's the applicable section.

12-3034 Maximum number of conductors in a box

(1) Boxes shall be of sufficient size to provide usable space for all insulated conductors contained in the box,
subject to the following:

(a) a conductor running through a box with no connection therein shall be considered as one conductor;
(b) each conductor entering or leaving a box and connected to a terminal or connector within the box shall be considered as one conductor;
(c) a conductor of which no part leaves the box shall not be counted; and
(d) No. 18 and No. 16 AWG fixture wires supplying a luminaire mounted on the box containing the fixture wires shall not be counted.

(2) Except as specified in Subrule (3) and subject to the details given in Subrule (1), boxes of the nominal dimensions given in Table 23 shall not contain more insulated conductors of a given size than permitted
by the Table, and the number of conductors shall be reduced for each of the following conditions as applicable:

(a) one conductor if the box contains one or more fixture studs or hickeys;
(b) one conductor for every pair of wire connectors with insulating caps (no deduction for one wire connector, deduct one conductor for 2- or 3-wire connectors, two conductors for 4- or 5-wire connectors, etc.); or
(c) two conductors if the box contains one or more flush devices mounted on a single strap.

(3) Where a box contains a device having a dimension greater than 2.54 cm between the mounting strap and back of the device, the total usable space shall be reduced by the space occupied by the device, calculated as 82 cm3 multiplied by the depth of the device in centimetres divided by 2.54 (for example, a device having a depth of 4 cm would occupy a space of 129 cm3, that is, 82 times 4 divided by 2.54).

(4) Subject to the details given in Subrules (1) and (3), boxes having nominal dimensions or volume other than those shown in Table 23 or any box containing insulated conductors of different sizes shall have the
amount of usable space per insulated conductor as specified in Table 22, but the number of conductors so calculated shall be reduced for each of the conditions of Subrule (2) as applicable.

(5) The total usable space in a box considered under Table 22 shall be considered to be the internal volume of the box and shall disregard any space occupied by locknuts, bushings, box connectors, or clamps.

(6) Where sectional boxes are ganged, or where plaster rings, extension rings, or raised covers are used in conjunction with boxes, ganged or otherwise, and are marked with their volume measurement, the space
in the box shall be the total volume of the assembled sections.

That's what my code seems to say? Grounds aren't considered conductors correct? I know NEC says to count all grounds as one conductor, so I'd theoretically have 7 conductors according to them, which is still under the box limit, but over the box fill rate (I don't know which supercedes the other).

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Yeah, I have 3 grounds since I didn't want to use the EMT as a ground (I would be comfortable with that if I used compression fittings, but instead I got set screw fittings).

So you have a hot and a neutral in, and a hot and a neutral out two different places. Thats 6 conductors. All of the grounds count as one, that makes seven. At 2.25 per each 12 gauge THHN wire, that is 15.75 Cu/in, which exceeds your box capacity of 14 cu/in.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

The section you have in bold means that you deduct from the maximum number of allowed wires in the box, based on the number of wire nuts you have. Don't knpw how many the table says, but if it says 8 max, it means to reduce the number allowed by the number of wire nuts.

NEC simply uses calculations of 2.25 cu/in per 12 gauge THHN wire. Add them up and if that exceeds the capacity of the box, then you are over filled.

Whatever the case, the boxes are very close to, if not overfilled. I have single boxes on the legs of my workbenches, but they only have the two hots and a ground going in, plus the receptacle, nothing more. If anything more, I would have gone to 4x4. I have pretty much standardized on deep 4x4 boxes for anything I do. I hate it that they have discontinued draw steel deep 4x4 boxes. Only thing they make now are welded ones with square edges and corners, but they work fine, its just that now, I have a mix of drawn steel and welded steel boxes.

In my next life, I will buy a box car load of the same box and will have enough for anything I do.

Charles

 

[Burgerkong]

The manufacturer states that a 1110 box has a capacity of 16.5cu-in. Just multiplying the nominal values gives me 17.8cu-in.

My codebook gives a nominal value of 14cu-in, but in Canada box fill rates and deductions are calculated differently.

** The maximum number of conductors shown in the table must be reduced in each of the following cases:

› One conductor, if the box contains one or more fixture studs or hickeys.
› One conductor for every additional pair of wire connectors (1 conductor for 2 or 3 wire connectors, 2 conductors for 4 or 5 wire connectors...).
› Two conductors for each single strap flush device up to 1” thick.
› 1 cu. in = 16.4 milliliter = 16.4 cubic centimeter
› 1 cubic centimeter = 1 milliliter = 0.061 cu. in

 

[Burgerkong]

The section you have in bold means that you deduct from the maximum number of allowed wires in the box, based on the number of wire nuts you have. Don't knpw how many the table says, but if it says 8 max, it means to reduce the number allowed by the number of wire nuts.

NEC simply uses calculations of 2.25 cu/in per 12 gauge THHN wire. Add them up and if that exceeds the capacity of the box, then you are over filled.

Whatever the case, the boxes are very close to, if not overfilled. I have single boxes on the legs of my workbenches, but they only have the two hots and a ground going in, plus the receptacle, nothing more. If anything more, I would have gone to 4x4. I have pretty much standardized on deep 4x4 boxes for anything I do. I hate it that they have discontinued draw steel deep 4x4 boxes. Only thing they make now are welded ones with square edges and corners, but they work fine, its just that now, I have a mix of drawn steel and welded steel boxes.

In my next life, I will buy a box car load of the same box and will have enough for anything I do.

Charles

Ahhh, if that's the case, it'll be 9 (max conductors) - 3 (pairs of wire connectors) = 6 conductors permitted? How does that work? Does that mean I can only make 3 wire connections with a total of 6 conductors?

 

[Burgerkong]

OK, never mind, seems like I'm right at capacity since grounding isn't mentioned nor accounted for in that section, hence it's not in the calculations. My deduction for the wire nuts was wrong, I only deduct one conductor for 2 to 3 wire nuts (I only have 3, so 9 - 1 = 8). Still, I will be going with square boxes next time, the math is killing me, I can see why many of you prefer the bigger boxes (wasn't just for more outlets etc...).

Pictures tomorrow, thanks for the help!

 

[sberry]

Change the plans a little, change out a couple boxes, a new pipe or 2. You can fix it.

 

[Burgerkong]

I have a couple 4" 1-7/8" deep square boxes that I'll be swapping out in some places, shouldn't have to saw too much off. Take pictures when I'm done.

 

[impala_631]

I just ran mine. Yesterday. It was really strait toward. I didn't even have to use a bender.

 

[Burgerkong]

I just ran mine. Yesterday. It was really strait toward. I didn't even have to use a bender.

Lucky you, how'd you your box offsets? I wished mine were straight, but the outlet I'm tapping into is on the wrong wall so I had to extend it.

 

[Burgerkong]

Ugh, I now understand why square boxes are preferable. Lots more space and you honestly don't need to worry about box fill calculations in typical residential situations. Add in a few wirenuts and a standard receptacle and it's TIGHT! I'm already using 12 gauge stranded and it's still a chore to get everything laid out right before screwing the receptacle in, I can imagine how much harder it is with solid core.

Ran all the wires today, just need to hook up two more receptables, ran out of large wirenuts go figure. Have a question on wiring though.I've been using pig tails, but wouldn't it be easier if the connections occurred on the second set of contacts on the receptacles? For example, I use the top two contacts for my incoming source conductors, reserving the bottom two contacts for the downstream conductors? Also, I am not physically connecting the grounding wires to the junction boxes, but I understand that my outlet screws grounds the outlet to the box and conduit, so this is acceptable? The only scenario where I've seen people using the ground screw on the box is if the EMT is treated as the ground and you need to connect the receptacle to box ground.

Yeah yeah, I didn't want to use pull elbows, without them it'd be a hard pull (but still doable) and right at the maximum number of bends for a single run.

Here's how I am hooking up the receptacles.

 

[Norcal]

I do not know if the CEC requires it but the grounding conductor needs to be bonded to the box at the receptacles.

 

[Burgerkong]

I do not know if the CEC requires it but the grounding conductor needs to be bonded to the box at the receptacles.

I think that's a good idea. Lemme ask some of my electrician friends and see what they say. I thought that if the EMT was bonded to ground at one point it satisfies all grounding equipment and that the mounting screws and flanges on the receptacles tie in the box to the ground along with the set screw connectors?

 

[tfi racing]

I do not know if the CEC requires it but the grounding conductor needs to be bonded to the box at the receptacles.

In this case,the bonding conductor is optional,but if its there it does need to be bonded at each box.

 

[Burgerkong]

In this case,the bonding conductor is optional,but if its there it does need to be bonded at each box.

Does the grounding screw connection count as a 'wire connector'? And does the CEC count the grounding conductors when doing box calculations? It does not make note of this under 12-3034.

 

[sands35]

Box fill calculator:

http://www.constructionmonkey.com/calculations/electrical/boxfill.aspx

More:

http://ecmweb.com/code-basics/box-fill-calculations

and

http://www.mikeholt.com/instructor2/img/product/pdf/11MBOOKS-1176-sample.pdf

All grounds count as 1 conductor (as I read it).

 

[Burgerkong]

Box fill calculator:

http://www.constructionmonkey.com/calculations/electrical/boxfill.aspx

More:

http://ecmweb.com/code-basics/box-fill-calculations

and

http://www.mikeholt.com/instructor2/img/product/pdf/11MBOOKS-1176-sample.pdf

All grounds count as 1 conductor (as I read it).

Yeah, I could only find detailed box fill calculators for the NEC, not the Canadian code unfortunately. The difference is mainly the inclusion of wire connectors, still unknown on ground.

 

[Burgerkong]

Still unsure, but someone has interpreted the code that since the grounds in this case are insulated, they should count towards box volume which makes absolutely no sense since whether it's bare or insulated they still take up roughly the same room. At this point I am just going to say screw it. Going to fix the bonding issue with some bare copper.

 

[sands35]

I missed the Canada part. But as I read the CEC vs. NEC, they are basically the same. 90% of the time, I just use the biggest plastic box a 4" or 4-11" box and it works. I've only had issues when I'm trying to put in a ~30 amp or greater outlet. I also try and not get fancy with wire routing, even though I know that costs me some more money for more wire to make the routing simpler electrically. (I'm a home owner / amateur / cheapskate / DIYer) It's cheaper and faster in the long run to not run into issues with the inspector.

Personally, I would have used 4" boxes and a cover for the decora duplex you used. Probably 2x the required volume but a whole lot simpler for stuffing the box.

The safe answer on the ground to simply count them as if they where a conductor - which would give you a conservative box fill number.

 

[Burgerkong]

Here's the main issue drawn out:

Yes, I could replace the box and all would be fine, but if it's fine then I wouldn't have to take off that section of conduit and resaw.

I think I screwed myself over when I wanted to do it right and run an additional wire for the ground in case it gets lifted when one of the set screw connectors loosen up. If I didn't run it, all the boxes would be well under the limit since pigtails don't count towards box fill.

 

[Burgerkong]

I could just delete the ground running up to the lighting box, and bond the ground to the box there, thus reducing it to 8. Theoretically it should be fine and since it's such a short run it's easy to check.

 

[Falcon67]

>Ugh, I now understand why square boxes are preferable. Lots more space and you honestly don't need to worry about box fill calculations

LOL. That's why they sell hammers with burrer covered handles - to finish cramming wires in a handy box. I used all 4x4s and only handy stuff at the end of a run.

 

[Burgerkong]

>Ugh, I now understand why square boxes are preferable. Lots more space and you honestly don't need to worry about box fill calculations

LOL. That's why they sell hammers with burrer covered handles - to finish cramming wires in a handy box. I used all 4x4s and only handy stuff at the end of a run.

I was just stabbing the wires with a plastic spatula!

I have revised my options. I think I'm going to go for case 3. LOL.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Personally, at this point, I would do what you planned and forget about changes. They simply are not worth the trouble.

In the US there is a thing called a "Greenie" wirenut that has a hole in the end, and you strip one wire bare, leaving it longer (but you need solid wire to do this) and run it out thru the hole in the wirenut, wrap around a screw in the back of the box, and on to the ground terminal on the switch or receptacle.

I do not like stranded THHN, and avoid using it. It won't stay where you put it. I usually bring wire into a box, and make a run around the inside of the box in the back, before terminating at the receptacle or wirenuts. This gives me extra wire to work with then and in the future. Stranded wire is difficult to form and get to stay in place. Solid wire is wonderful, it forms and stays. Not much more difficult to pull. I pulled 60-70 ft runs my myself, but I did have to pull a little, then feed a little and pull some more. I try to feed right off the spools mounted on a spool carrier, wire doesn't tangle that way.

As you have found, 4x4 boxes are much better, and I even have quit using shallow ones mostly, and stick with deep ones. I did several junctions in conduit, where a shallow 4x4 box worked OK so far as not overfilling, but I ended up putting a box extender on it just to have more working room inside. With the deep box, I probably would not have needed to do this.

Charles

 

[Burgerkong]

Personally, at this point, I would do what you planned and forget about changes. They simply are not worth the trouble.

In the US there is a thing called a "Greenie" wirenut that has a hole in the end, and you strip one wire bare, leaving it longer (but you need solid wire to do this) and run it out thru the hole in the wirenut, wrap around a screw in the back of the box, and on to the ground terminal on the switch or receptacle.

I do not like stranded THHN, and avoid using it. It won't stay where you put it. I usually bring wire into a box, and make a run around the inside of the box in the back, before terminating at the receptacle or wirenuts. This gives me extra wire to work with then and in the future. Stranded wire is difficult to form and get to stay in place. Solid wire is wonderful, it forms and stays. Not much more difficult to pull. I pulled 60-70 ft runs my myself, but I did have to pull a little, then feed a little and pull some more. I try to feed right off the spools mounted on a spool carrier, wire doesn't tangle that way.

As you have found, 4x4 boxes are much better, and I even have quit using shallow ones mostly, and stick with deep ones. I did several junctions in conduit, where a shallow 4x4 box worked OK so far as not overfilling, but I ended up putting a box extender on it just to have more working room inside. With the deep box, I probably would not have needed to do this.

Charles

Yeah, I have a new hatred for stranded conductors, especially smaller gauge (read, larger) sized conductors, it's easy to stab yourself when twisting the ends together and you can't use a pair of pliers to help because the ends will just part and go everywhere. Ugh.

Fixed all the bonding issues, I love large wire nuts! Getting the proper sized nuts are important so they don't fall off when you look at them weirdly. You can see that I ditched the stranded for solid core bare 14 gauge wire because it's easier to clamp with the screw (doesn't go everywhere).

Installed a timer as well for some exterior lights. Should've went with a box one size up (4-11/16"), it was hell trying to cram everything in. Plus the stupid timer is oversized so I had to ground an extra unused flange off in order to screw the timer into the raised plate, which is temporary - the proper dual gang decora plate is on backorder.

I'm a pretty bad and SLOW electrician LOL.

 

[sberry]

You will get better, you should see some schemes I wired up when I started.