Underground Natural Gas Line Question

[7th Kahuna]

Hey guys,

This weekend I have to do an semi-emergency gas line repair. A crew (not mine) with a backhoe got a little too close and left me with a pinched water line and a gas line with a slow leak. They repaired the water line (more or less) but that was it.

Replacing the water line is no problem, I've been sweating copper since I was in my early teens. I've run gas indoors. I have been trying to quickly get up to speed on underground gas however (low pressure / customer side). I intend to do it in iron. I know to use coated but I could use some help with the joints. I have seen plenty of taped joints that don't look like they are very water tight. I picked up a can of Christy's Prime-It! Pipe Wrap Primer. Anyone have experience with this product? Is it the solution to getting the PVC tape to hold better?

I was actually giving some consideration to spraying auto undercoater or even hand applying liquid asphalt at the joints.

In my research, I think somewhere on this site, I read that if the entire pipe is coated you need to use a Magnesium anode or the steel will actually rust away faster than if you just buried it raw. I haven't seen one installed before. Is this common? Is it something that could be added after the fact?

Also is there anything special to do where the line daylights before entering the house. I have noticed in situations where the meter is above ground, the gas company sleeves the high pressure side but I am not sure what is going on there.

Can any plumbers out there offer a final word?

Thanks

 

[TommyK]

I wouldn't touch it if I were you. Call the gas and water companies and tell them what happened.

They and the State Utilities Commission will very much want to speak to the contractor that did the damage.

Hiitting it is one thing. Hitting it and not reporting it is a big time no no, at least where I come from.

 

[sean Buick 76]

Sounds like you could easily be sued if you touched it!!!!!!!!!!! Just report it and pay the cost to have it fixed by the pros... Who would you hire to inspect your work anyways????

 

[Flexia]

I would defiantly have the utility company fix it on there expense

 

[Old Steamer]

Call the gas company. These guys do it everyday.

 

[Leaflessshadetree]

I wouldn't mess around with tape or spraying any random type of material on it.
Definitely replace the damaged section. Depending on the age/condition/length of the pipe I would consider replacing it all.


If it is on the customer side the gas company may not have known about it or marked it. If you had told them where approximately it was and asked nicely they may have located it for you. Did they call to have lines located before digging? Did they know the lines were there?

 

[7th Kahuna]

I wouldn't mess around with tape or spraying any random type of material on it.
Definitely replace the damaged section. Depending on the age/condition/length of the pipe I would consider replacing it all.


If it is on the customer side the gas company may not have known about it or marked it. If you had told them where approximately it was and asked nicely they may have located it for you. Did they call to have lines located before digging? Did they know the lines were there?

It is on the customer side and as a result it wasn't marked. Neither the gas nor the water company have any responsibility or avenue for making the repairs. The work is on me or on the contractor that did the damage. Per their contract, which I am not a party to, it was my responsibility to tell them where the utilities were . The contractor replaced a section of the water line in order to get the water turned back on and the water company came out and replaced the meter. As far as anyone is concerned they are done, but I know they have just delayed a bigger problem.

Any further repairs will be on me and though I can't really afford to take this on right now, I don't want to miss the opportunity to get it done before the cement goes back Monday morning. There is no way I am going to get a thread on the old gas line so yes, I will be replacing the whole thing.

 

[dbonne]

You could install yellow plastic Nat gas pipe. It is fairly cheap and easy to work with. Be sure to use the steel sweeps for coming out of the ground. I did 165' of 1 inch, all of the parts were under $400.

 

[7th Kahuna]

You could install yellow plastic Nat gas pipe. It is fairly cheap and easy to work with. Be sure to use the steel sweeps for coming out of the ground. I did 165' of 1 inch, all of the parts were under $400.

I had considered that but have zero familiarity with the product. Decided to stick with something I sort of knew. I do know that poly requires a special sweep or, locally, I believe a fused riser. Thanks for the suggestion though. Glad to see that someone else was willing to give it a go.

 

[diggerrick]

Geez, I would have already contacted the Public Utilities Commission and local law enforcement, maybe OSHA too. The contractor has knowingly endangered you and your community.

 

[7th Kahuna]

I think you guys have been watching too many movies with too many big explosions.

I would honestly be more upset if I hadn't already been intending to replace both lines. I've already repaired one leak in the water pipe and the gas line is more rust than steel. I just was planning on waiting until I had a regular paycheck again. Fortunately (or unfortunately) a local hardware is going out of business so I was able to get most of the fittings for 50 to 70 percent off. I just need to go buy the sticks of pipe.

Add to that, the job is going to be so much easier with the cement already out of the way.

The whole business has it's pluses and minuses.

 

[soo_smitty]

You could install yellow plastic Nat gas pipe. It is fairly cheap and easy to work with. Be sure to use the steel sweeps for coming out of the ground. I did 165' of 1 inch, all of the parts were under $400.

X2 To what dbonne said.

Here's a link to a riser:

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/CONTINENTAL-INDUSTRIES-Anodeless-Riser-4EHJ6?Pid=search

 

[soo_smitty]

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=137458

Also a link on how to hook it up

 

[jimindm]

When I ran the gas line to my garage, one of my customers recommended calling out gas supplier. I called them and all they needed to know was what length. About 75 ft of the plastic line, and the fused riser on the end. It ended up being about $60 to just go down to their shop and pick it up.

Gas line is not very deep. When I did the garage I tapped in right behind the outside meter. When we added on to the house and needed the meter moved, the gas company did it for us. Of course the basement was not back filled yet, so not much digging required. The gas guys were laughing at how deep my run to the garage was, when their supply line was only about 16 inches.

You may not be able to do it this weekend, but the pipe is cheap and easy to work with. Any equipment rental should have a small trencher that is cheap to rent. Above all else when using plastic, run a wire with it, in case it ever has to be located in the future.

 

[7th Kahuna]

Soo Smitty and jimindm, thanks for the information on the plastic pipe. From what I have read, the sweep with the stab coupler is not acceptable here. It has to be the fused riser you speak of Jim. When you say you 'called out gas supplier' you don't mean the gas company do you. You called a pipeline supplier? Could you please elaborate.

I would really like to get this all done this weekend before the cement goes back, but I suppose I could sleeve it if I sleeved it large enough to get the riser through. I assume the connection to the riser was at 90°.

 

[kbs2244]

If you don't want to have the NG co. do the work you might want t talk to the local propane co.
They do underground gas lines and should have all the supplies and expertise.

 

[7th Kahuna]

It's funny how things apparently vary around the country and country to country. Here the gas company doesn't even necessarily do their own work, much less doing work on the customers pipes. They will inspect your house and light your furnace but that's about it. The contractor who did the damage is a subcontractor to the subcontractor to the local electrical utility. He just runs the pipes, another company will run the wires and so it goes. Ten years ago it seemed they did their own work. Not so much anymore. And propane, what's that?

I'm still up against a bit of a wall. Does anyone have answers to the original questions?

How do I properly protect the joints in the iron line?

 

[mrapp23]

Got any pics of said leak?

 

[ts3342]

If the line was between the meter and house that is your house line you are paying for the gas that is leaking. You can either repair the line with a piece of plastic gas line and use 2 plastic to steel dresser coupling or replace the whole line with plastic line and use riser with stab coupling made on the end of the risers.If your line is coated now that is better than bare steel if so use the plastic and coupling repair and wrap the bare fitting with a roll of grease wrap for fitting.

 

[malibu101]

. They repaired the water line (more or less) but that was it.
...............
Replacing the water line is no problem, I've been sweating copper since I was in my early teens..........

Can any plumbers out there offer a final word?

Thanks

I am NOT a plumber but I often work around underground utilities.
I have very often seen soft copper run underground for water, BUT, I have never seen a soldered (sweated) joint underground. Always compression fittings.
I don't know why though?

Maybe it's just a regional thing? OR maybe I've always seen a a bad practice?

 

[boomer12831]

As an employee of a large utility I have run in to this several times. Different companies have different policies regarding repair of gas lines that are on the cust side of the meter. I would try calling them to get some answers for your questions. What ever you do be aware of static electricity while trying to fix this. Repairing this and then having something go wrong could put you at a big liability.

 

[7th Kahuna]

Got any pics of said leak?

Funny, always after the pictures. In this case its smellivision. At least for me. Actually both existing lines are covered with 2 ton steel plates so I can't really see much of anything. The new line is taking a different route as there in now a tree in the way of the old one.

If the line was between the meter and house that is your house line you are paying for the gas that is leaking. You can either repair the line with a piece of plastic gas line and use 2 plastic to steel dresser coupling or replace the whole line with plastic line and use riser with stab coupling made on the end of the risers.If your line is coated now that is better than bare steel if so use the plastic and coupling repair and wrap the bare fitting with a roll of grease wrap for fitting.

There is no repairing this line. Not a smooth bit of steel to be found. As noted above I don't believe that a stab coupling at the riser is allowed here so I would have needed to find the tool to fuse it. Not happening on short notice. As much as the plastic might be a good idea, I'll have to work with iron for now.

I am NOT a plumber but I often work around underground utilities.
I have very often seen soft copper run underground for water, BUT, I have never seen a soldered (sweated) joint underground. Always compression fittings.
I don't know why though?

Maybe it's just a regional thing? OR maybe I've always seen a a bad practice?

The existing line is soft copper which doesn't hold up well around here, not since they changed how our water was treated 20 or so years ago. It develops pin hole leaks. Much better to use type L hard. As to the compression fittings, I have no idea. Haven't seen it myself. Could be a skill / cost issue or maybe there is some advantage in regions where you have winter freezing.

As an employee of a large utility I have run in to this several times. Different companies have different policies regarding repair of gas lines that are on the cust side of the meter. I would try calling them to get some answers for your questions. What ever you do be aware of static electricity while trying to fix this. Repairing this and then having something go wrong could put you at a big liability.

I'm guessing static is the reason for the magnisium anode. But perhaps you are thinking of something else?


For the moment I am just going to focus on getting the pipe in the ground. I want to get a few questions answered before I consider hooking it up.

I took a look at the high pressure side of the meter today. The meter sits in a vault next to the street. The pipe on the utility side looks as bad as mine. I don't know that it would survive any stress what-so-ever and that of course is where the shut-off is.

 

[dumper]

this isn't about whether you can do the repair- it is totally about liability. If you repair the gas line yourself , and tomorrow, or 10 years from now that repair fails and causes an explosion, no insurance in the world is going to help you. In the long run, it is much cheaper to call out a plumber and have them fix it right. You live in So Cal? There are more lawyers per square foot in LA than probably anywhere else in the world. What else do you need to know?

 

[7th Kahuna]

There are more lawyers per square foot in LA than probably anywhere else in the world. What else do you need to know?

If you could use one or two, I'd be happy to send them along.

Seriously, I take your point but by that reasoning you'd never work on your own vehicle or even plant a tree. Simple fact is the pipe needs to be replaced this weekend and I either do it myself or it doesn't get done. I can't afford a plumber right now. I'm still recovering from a $2,000 sewer cleaning. This isn't rocket science. Dig a trench, lay the pipe, wrap the joints, pressurize the line, test for leaks, attach to house and meter.

I just wanted to know if their were any tricks to make the pipe tape work better. My neighbor's line didn't last 20 years before it rusted through (installed by a plumber). I was hoping to double that.

 

[jimindm]

Sixteen years ago when I built my garage, MidAmerican Energy that is our natural gas, and electric supplier, after a call to them, gave me and charged me or the materials to run my gas line. The home owner risers they did not have in stock and ordered some, but gave me the plastic tubing. They said that it must come vertical out of the hole, and rise about three feet. I installed conduit and the gas line to the garage, and a few weeks later the risers came in and I went and picked them up. Its been a while, but if I remember right it was kind of like a three feet long compression fitting. Slipped it over the plastic, slid it down about 6 inches below grade and finished it up.

Ten years ago we added on to the house and needed to move our meter. I basically took the garage line and wrapped it around the foundation, as it was not backfilled yet, and said that is where I want the meter. When the gas company came out to install the meter they lengthened their line, wrapped it around the front of the foundation. Where it fell was right under a window and the guys did not want that. They cut my riser of and installed a new one on my line to the garage, to get clearance from the window. They did it all at the time.

A couple of years ago, my buddy needed about ten feet, to get from his house to garage. He called them, and they made the line up complete for him. Risers on each end and everything.

To answer your question about what to line the steel pipe with, I really have no answer on how to do that. I would say that why would you want to do it. An afternoon of trenching, and a couple of runs of plastic for your water and gas, and the job would be done. It would be done with the most up to date practices in use today. Anything you do to try to patch what you have will only be temporary. I would not want that. I can understand you wanting to fix it before you pour concrete over it. If you are going to repair what you have, at least by some 6or8 inch plastic pipe and cap the ends and bury it under the drive. When you do decide to fix the whole run someday, then you will not have to cut the drive.

What you are asking about, has long been an out of use practice for many years. Its your problem you fix it how you want. Personally anything under ground I have tried my best to use the least amount of couplers or fitting as I could. The best would be one piece from start to finish. IMO, it really does not matter what you have now, its what you will need in the future. Plastic is the way to go, and using it is the practice of today.

 

[akdiesel]

this isn't about whether you can do the repair- it is totally about liability. If you repair the gas line yourself , and tomorrow, or 10 years from now that repair fails and causes an explosion, no insurance in the world is going to help you. In the long run, it is much cheaper to call out a plumber and have them fix it right. You live in So Cal? There are more lawyers per square foot in LA than probably anywhere else in the world. What else do you need to know?

The same could be said for any type of work especially if it is a licensed contractor that screws up.

7th Kahuna

What type of pipe did your neighbor have in the ground?

 

[7th Kahuna]

What type of pipe did your neighbor have in the ground?

The 'green' coated iron gas line.

 

[MrMark]

You are on the right track. Just do what you are planning. Use the green stuff and wrap the joints with the PVC tape and primer. You need to achieve 40 mil thickness as I recall. Make sure you tape any nicks in the green coating. It's still code in CA.

Where it comes up through the concrete wrap the same way. It's been done this way for 100 years here. It should last 100 years with properly installed green coated pipe. I have to do the same thing. For a short run the plastic has too many issues, like cost of the anode less risers.

 

[7th Kahuna]

What you are asking about, has long been an out of use practice for many years. Its your problem you fix it how you want. Personally anything under ground I have tried my best to use the least amount of couplers or fitting as I could. The best would be one piece from start to finish. IMO, it really does not matter what you have now, its what you will need in the future. Plastic is the way to go, and using it is the practice of today.

Thanks for the additional information. I was just trying to make something happen this weekend. On Monday the contractor will finish pouring their concrete slurry 6 foot deep and 2.5 feet wide then place a six foot wide 4" thick concrete walk on top of it. I am going to install a 6 inch sleeve at 18 inches deep and a 4 inch sleeve at 6 inches deep. Without them, there will be no easy way to get between the house and the street. I only have the opportunity because of the leak. My neighbors have all been closed off already. The existing gas leak will be encapsulated in the slurry.

I don't have a problem using plastic though the existing steel has lasted since the 1940's and it did basically survive the backhoe yesterday. Not sure that the plastic would have. I have 1920's era galvanized water lines in the house that have outlasted copper installed in the 1990's. Unbelievably I can still take the old galv fittings apart. Newer isn't always better. Of course today's pipe is not necessarily of the same quality unfortunately. I just want to do the best job I can given the resources I have available. I also don't like to be governed by fear alone.

I need to find out more about the fused riser and whether in fact it is the only approved option for my area. If it is, it would have to be done in the field as I doubt you could get in through the sleeve.

 

[7th Kahuna]

You are on the right track. Just do what you are planning. Use the green stuff and wrap the joints with the PVC tape and primer. You need to achieve 40 mil thickness as I recall. Make sure you tape any nicks in the green coating. It's still code in CA.

Where it comes up through the concrete wrap the same way. It's been done this way for 100 years here. It should last 100 years with properly installed green coated pipe. I have to do the same thing. For a short run the plastic has too many issues, like cost of the anode less risers.

Thank you.

 

[robertlynk]

I live in Socal towards Palm Springs. 20 years ago i put in coated black pipe using the black tape supplied at that time. Last week doing new construction I pull some of the old pipe up and there were no problems with the joints. As time is a issue i would lay 2 or more 2 or 3 inch pvc pipe under the concrete deep enough to get 18 inches of cover and pass the pipe thru later. The extra pipe is for future lines

 

[mygarageone]

They used to make special compression couplings for steel gas line pipe . You would have to get them from your gas supplier or a specialty plumbing supplier. The fact that it's on your end of the line , and it wasn't marked , yea it's your problem. The gas company most times will not get involved because of the liability issue , they have enough with out getting involved with your system.
If you had planned on replacing the line , why not just do so now ?

 

[nehog]

... Per their contract, which I am not a party to, it was my responsibility to tell them where the utilities were . ...

Just to pick a (legal) nit: if you were not party to the contract, you can't be 'responsible' for any tasks or execution of the contract. Two parties cannot bind a third party to a contract.

Therefor if you were not party to the contract, you had no enforceable legal obligation to tell anyone where the utilities were.

The contractor should have called dig-safe prior to any work.

 

[volaredon]

I think you guys have been watching too many movies with too many big explosions.

I would honestly be more upset if I hadn't already been intending to replace both lines. I've already repaired one leak in the water pipe and the gas line is more rust than steel. I just was planning on waiting until I had a regular paycheck again. Fortunately (or unfortunately) a local hardware is going out of business so I was able to get most of the fittings for 50 to 70 percent off. I just need to go buy the sticks of pipe.

Add to that, the job is going to be so much easier with the cement already out of the way.

The whole business has it's pluses and minuses.

well it seems you have a gift horse here... a way to gt what you were wanting to do anyway done at the utilities' expense

 

[7th Kahuna]

Just to pick a (legal) nit: if you were not party to the contract, you can't be 'responsible' for any tasks or execution of the contract. Two parties cannot bind a third party to a contract.

Therefor if you were not party to the contract, you had no enforceable legal obligation to tell anyone where the utilities were.

The contractor should have called dig-safe prior to any work.

It would be kind of cool if you could though. My friend and I could sign a contract obligating the bank to pay my mortgage if interest rates rise above 3 percent for instance.

Yeah, I understand they can't do that but it takes them off the hook. The city is a master at such things. They did the same thing with the city trees. They planted a particularly troublesome tree, then 20 years later, changed the rules to make the property owner responsible for the sidewalks and sewer lines (to the center of the street). The only way they say they will cover a repair is if their inspector determines that the damage could not have been reasonably expected. Now that really leaves the door open.

As far a calling dig-alert, they did, but dig alert (around here at least) only marks utilities on the public side of the meter. The contract in question instructed the contractor to interview each property owner to determine where the private side utilities are. Knowing that the typical homeowner would have absolutely no idea, they didn't bother. Now it happened that I had already talked to the contractor about another issue and as a result I had in fact marked the location of my utilities prior to their arrival. What no one counted on was how shallow they were. Still some simple potholing on the contractors part would have saved everyone a lot of trouble.

Another comment on dig-alert. Not only do they only mark public side utilities, they also only mark known (modern) utilities. There is a 36" diameter concrete pipe in the street directly in front of the house that wasn't in the record. Funny thing is, knowing something of the history of the city, I would have almost put money on it being there. Anyway, I'm off to dig a hole.

 

[JakeKohl]

I'm guessing static is the reason for the magnisium anode. But perhaps you are thinking of something else?

The magnesium anode is for cathodic protection. It is a sacrificial anode in the same way outboard motors have a chunk of magnesium riveted to their foot casing. In a quick and dirty explanation, the plastic coating on the pipe is an electrical insulator. Putting a sacrificial anode (or induced electrical current) on an uninsulated pipe would be wasteful as most would leak through the contact with the ground and your protection would be limited to a very small distance around where the anode connects to the pipe. You can induce a protective electrical current on the pipe in several ways...most gas companies use bags of magnesium attached to the pipe but they also can use directly induced DC current on large pipeline systems (fed by the power company). They'll usually have monitoring stations where they can inspect the charge on the pipe to make sure the system is operating properly. The electrical current induced on the pipe helps prevent corrosion. In the case of the magnesium, as it corrodes (much more easily than steel) it induces a tiny electrical current to the pipe that offers protection to the steel by bringing it to an immune state.

You will also notice on steel pipe systems in older neighborhoods the riser has an electrical insulator where the pipe connects to the service meter. This prevents anything in the house from grounding the protection system on the pipe line. You also don't want to pull out an old lead based paint can and paint over this joint...you'll short out the protection system and a cathodic protection intern will have to spend a couple of days tracking down your attempt to beautify your meter.

 

[JakeKohl]

I'm guessing static is the reason for the magnisium anode. But perhaps you are thinking of something else?

The magnesium anode is for cathodic protection. It is a sacrificial anode in the same way outboard motors have a chunk of magnesium riveted to their foot casing. In a quick and dirty explanation, the plastic coating on the pipe is an electrical insulator. Putting a sacrificial anode (or induced electrical current) on an uninsulated pipe would be wasteful as most would leak through the contact with the ground. You can induce a protective electrical current on the pipe in several ways...most gas companies use bags of magnesium attached to the pipe but they also can use directly induced DC current on large pipeline systems (fed by the power company). The electrical current induced on the pipe helps prevent corrosion. In the case of the magnesium, as it corrodes (much more easily than steel) it induces a tiny electrical current to the pipe that offers protection.

You will also notice on steel pipe systems in older neighborhoods an electrical isolater where the steel pipe connects to the service meter. This prevents anything in the house from grounding the protection system on the pipe line. You also don't want to pull out an old lead based pain can and paint over this isolation joint...you'll short out the protection system and a cathodic protection intern will have to spend a couple of days tracking down your attempt at beautifying your meter.