Upgrading electrical panel, looking for recommendations and ideas

[wmchurch]

Moved into a 1959 concrete block house a few months ago. Existing service is 150A and it's a combination fuse breaker (main disconnect is fuse, with breakers for the circuits). I'm not exactly sure who makes the box, and I can't find breakers to fit it to save my life. No room left and frankly I'm not all jazzed about the main fuse disconnect (this is all in one box).

So, I've replaced a panel before in my previous house, but I did it before we were living in it so I just yanked the old panel out and put the new panel in it's place.

My plan here is to put the new panel beside the old panel, backfeed a 50AMP circuit to the new panel and start moving the breakers over. I will end up using a new meter can and riser (aerial cables), but I want to put it in the same location as the previous so there will be some downtime.

So, I know that when back feed, just like adding a sub panel, I will not bond the neutral and ground of the new panel. I also believe I need a 50AMP breaker in both the new panel and the old panel.

I plan on just running lights and plugs (back feed) on the new panel. The actual load will be light (every light in the house is LED and the few accessories we have are pretty low, computer, TVs, etc…)

Once the new panel is on the service, I'll move the heaver loads (A/C, Stove, Dryer, etc.)

With all that being said. I'm looking for a recommendation for a panel. I'm mounting it in the garage, about 2 feet from the existing panel, but closer to all of the loads (should make it simple to route the existing wires, no need for junction boxes). I want a lot of space (elbow room, interior space in the box).

We're using the 2007 NFPA 70 National Electrical Code (Saint Petersburg, Fl). I happen to have a copy of CodeCheck and I think that will help a bit.

I'm leaning towards the Siemens panels like this one:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005GLDFHI/?tag=atomicindus08-20

I like all the ground and neutral bars and like the copper bus.

Siemens has some interesting breakers like this one:

http://w3.usa.siemens.com/powerdist...t-catalog/Documents/sf-11-sect-01-044-046.pdf

It's a whole house surge protector (required) and 2 usable independent 20A breakers. Essentially this uses up only 2 spaces, but gives 2 usable 20A circuits. Previous solutions I've used "wastes" two circuit spaces for the surge protector.

I also thought this was kind of cool for your A/C unit, combo breaker:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000VYKYR4/?tag=atomicindus08-20

I'm thinking things like that will help keep some of the clutter down in the box and make it a bit nicer when installing everything.

Thoughts? Any experience with these panels/breakers?

 

[wmchurch]

BTW, all the wire in the house is copper w/ grounds, and I've already replaced all of the outlets and switches throughout the house.

There are only a handful of existing fixtures (a couple of spot lights and 1 overhead light remaining).

 

[2ManyProjects]

Moved into a 1959 concrete block house a few months ago. Existing service is 150A and it's a combination fuse breaker (main disconnect is fuse, with breakers for the circuits). I'm not exactly sure who makes the box, and I can't find breakers to fit it to save my life. No room left and frankly I'm not all jazzed about the main fuse disconnect (this is all in one box).

Time for a new service panel. Check with your PoCo; but it will probably be very feasible (and cost-effective) to upgrade the service to at least 200A at the same time.

So, I've replaced a panel before in my previous house, but I did it before we were living in it so I just yanked the old panel out and put the new panel in it's place.

My plan here is to put the new panel beside the old panel, backfeed a 50AMP circuit to the new panel and start moving the breakers over.

Why?

Your primary problem is a long-obsolete panel, for which you can no longer (easily) get appropriate service parts (and which MAY be in deteriorated condition, and thus constitute a safety hazard). Hence your goal should be GETTING RID OF that panel. If you're even "getting by" on an old 150A panel now, a new 200A main service panel should provide all the branch breaker slots you could ever need.

I will end up using a new meter can and riser (aerial cables), but I want to put it in the same location as the previous so there will be some downtime.

All the more reason to NOT create a Rube Goldberg -esque mess by trying to tack onto the old panel. The "down time" required to replace the service feeder AND the main panel will not be appreciably greater than to do as you describe. A few hours en toto should do it (at least, that's what it took when I had a similar job done in my house some 20+ years ago). And when you're done, you will have a MUCH nicer finished product.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Replace the meter can first, with new 200 amp capable, and use a combination unit with a disconnect built into it. Then you can change your panel inside safely, and at your own pace, as you will be able to turn the power off OUTSIDE.

Charles

 

[vekster]

I didn't know you could get a meter base with a disconnect built into it?


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[CNGsaves]

I didn't know you could get a meter base with a disconnect built into it?

Likely depends on local PoCo requirements/restrictions. Of course manufacturers make them, but your local code/inspector may not like/allow them.

Here in states, it varies depending by state.

 

[wmchurch]

Definitely not arguing the need for a new panel, decided that before I moved in. I regret not switching it out before we moved in…

In any event, I have been leaning more toward a rip in replace in one fell swoop, but I'm thinking I'll need to put the family up in a hotel for a day or two to be safe in case I don't get reconnected in time.

Any thoughts on the Siemens panels and breakers?

 

[2ManyProjects]

In any event, I have been leaning more toward a rip in replace in one fell swoop, but I'm thinking I'll need to put the family up in a hotel for a day or two to be safe in case I don't get reconnected in time.

FWIW, when I had mine done, the whole job took "most of" one day. HOWEVER... In addition to the new panel itself, that job also included a completely new service line from the pole, moving the meter about 35 feet down to the end of the house and around the corner (to where I have, over the years, created what might be called "Utility Central"), and running another 40 feet or so of new SER (I think) from the meter pan back to the same hole in the foundation where the old feed entered the house (most of which was under a funky ~3-foot overhang formed by the house itself being partially cantilevered over the foundation -- yes, the original builder pinched his pennies REALLY hard).

I hired this job out; so it presumably proceeded at a "professional" rate of speed. But OTOH, I recall that there was also a fair amount of head-scratching and kibitzing between the various factions (i.e., me, the electrical contractor & his employees, the power company guys, and the local building inspector). In any event, they certainly did NOT seem rushed.

 

[brewchief]

Definitely not arguing the need for a new panel, decided that before I moved in. I regret not switching it out before we moved in…

In any event, I have been leaning more toward a rip in replace in one fell swoop, but I'm thinking I'll need to put the family up in a hotel for a day or two to be safe in case I don't get reconnected in time.

Any thoughts on the Siemens panels and breakers?

If you do want to move the panel over a few feet like you first mentioned you can mount the new panel, run new SE cable(or prep for new conduit if that's your plan), pound new ground rods and run ground wire along with a bunch of other stuff before you need to disconnect power.

My point is to do everything you can ahead of time to reduce your downtime, if the utility does the disconnect/reconnect then start moving circuits to the new panel in the morning before they show up rather then sitting around drinking coffee.

I think the Siemens stuff is pretty nice.

 

[wmchurch]

When considering the grounding system, I've been struggling with the interpretation of what is "right".

I've read the stuff in both CodeCheck and NFPA70. I've also seen a few youtube videos from "AskThisOldHouse". One of this things I've noticed is a lot of people doing 2 x 8' 5/8" ground rods, spaced 6' apart. In Florida, I can't recall ever seeing this done, but the last time I did this was almost 15 years ago, codes were obviously different then.

I imagine it has a lot to do with the level of the water table, if I dig down to about 1.5' I hit water, and I believe the resistance greatly decreases in these cases. That combined with the salinity of the soil, we're on a canal w/ salt water. I plan on calling the inspector on Monday, but wanted to see if anyone had any thoughts here.

The other thing I noticed when it comes to the grounding system was that I see GEC should be bonded to the neutral leg of the meter can, and the copper water pipe should be grounded to the ground bus of the electrical panel. Of course, on the main panel both the neutral bus and ground bus are also bonded.

My rub with the panel to water pipe bonding is, in my house it's currently bonded to a stub water pipe coming out of the ground. I have to assume that this is actually connected to my water system, there are no other water pipes near my electrical panel/meter can, so it looks like it may have been run just for this purpose (in 1959…).

For my own sanity, I think I'm going to shut the water off, cut the plug off and turn it back on for a moment to see if it's actually part of the system. If it is, I guess I'm good to go… If it's not, I assume I'll need to run a ground wire from the panel all the way over to the other side of the garage to bond it to the actual water service entrance (about 24' away).

Again, I'm going to double check with the inspector, but figured I'd solicit ideas here as well.

 

[Stuart in MN]

If the existing wiring in the walls is still good, you may be able to gut out the old panel and use it as a junction box. Set the new panel next to it, and then you just need to run short wires from the new panel to the old gutted out panel where you reconnect to the branch circuit wiring.

 

[wmchurch]

Stuart in MN,

That's definitely something I've considered. I did that for a family member's house, and it worked/passed inspection but for my garage I didn't want to lose the space, and also want it to be a clean installation.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Check you local "Big Box Store". They frequently have "combo" packs, a load center with multiple breakers. Usually these are a good deal !

 

[67carl]

My Dad had a 200amp panel installed by an electrician and he and I wired the kitchen and other areas during a remodel. The thing I really appreciated with his is there is a separate compartment for the neutral bus bar. Ran the wires into this compartment, connected the grounds and neutrals, then ran the hot up into the breaker compartment. Plenty of space to work, easy to keep things organized and straight. I don't remember the maker but if I was installing a new panel I'd look at one of these configurations. Just wanted to throw that out there.

 

[wmchurch]

67carl,

Wow, that's interesting and I'd appreciate that too. I've always been put off a bit of how easy it could be to accidentally bridge the hot and neutral in some of these boxes. It seems like we've been doing the same thing since Edison started selling this stuff… I'll have to check that out.

 

[67carl]

67carl,

Wow, that's interesting and I'd appreciate that too. I've always been put off a bit of how easy it could be to accidentally bridge the hot and neutral in some of these boxes. It seems like we've been doing the same thing since Edison started selling this stuff… I'll have to check that out.

This is driving me nuts. I've been searching the 'net for one and I can't find any. I wonder if it is something the electrician created? Any sparkies reading this seen one?

 

[MrMark]

We only drive one ground rod here in my beach city in Orange County, CA. We hit water at about 4 feet, depending on tide so I think your theories are correct. As to the water pipe, you can either run the ground wire over to the water or bring the water over to the panel, so I think you are correct there too.

 

[Mustang51js]

Not for nothing if you have to ask these questions your better off calling an electrician to do it right. You can't just change out a 150 amp panel to 200, you need to change the wire coming down from the power co connection, a new meter pan and the wire down to the panel. The two ground rods you could lay sideways in the ground if you had to as long as they are six feet apart. The ground goes to the ground bar on the panel, no grounds go to the meter. The ground,neutral bars on the main panel are the same thing and you can put either one on it as long as it's not a sub panel. The reason they sell the panels with separate ground bars are because of the arc fault breakers that are being required for new construction,makes it easier. The ground to the water meter goes to ground-neutral bar and that is installed in case a water pipe has a power wire hitting it, it will trip the breaker instead of you taking a shower and end up touching something that is grounded. In the new panel they will give you a bonding screw that must be screwed in to bond the neutral to the panel box. If your just going to replace the panel your just better off to take out the meter then take all wires out in one shot, install new panel and wires back in. Should take you about 4-5 hours for panel replacement only.

 

[Mustang51js]

The reason for the two ground rods is because of the soil in your area,in nj they make us do it because of the resistance in the soil, the less you have you only need one ground rod. You can get by on inspection if you show the inspector the ohms but it's just easier to put in two ground rods

 

[Mustang51js]

And btw you could just go to Home Depot and get a Murray panel, it's the same thing as the seimans with a different name. And about $50 cheaper

 

[MrMark]

The reason for the two ground rods is because of the soil in your area,in nj they make us do it because of the resistance in the soil, the less you have you only need one ground rod. You can get by on inspection if you show the inspector the ohms but it's just easier to put in two ground rods

Apparently, in some areas, like mine, it is just known that one rod is acceptable without the resistance test.

 

[Mustang51js]

Apparently, in some areas, like mine, it is just known that one rod is acceptable without the resistance test.

Yeah it's sort of a new thing in the last 10 years,and only certain areas. So best to look up local code to see if they require it

 

[sberry]

I hired this job out; so it presumably proceeded at a "professional" rate of speed. But OTOH, I recall that there was also a fair amount of head-scratching and kibitzing between the various factions (i.e., me, the electrical contractor & his employees, the power company guys, and the local building inspector). In any event, they certainly did NOT seem rushed.

I bet that was a treat and they really appreciated your 2 cents. Silly me, I usually am prepared with the inspection done, most of the move in place done and the power down about 10 minutes on a service change. Aint no engineering mystery at that point.

 

[wmchurch]

Not for nothing if you have to ask these questions your better off calling an electrician to do it right. You can't just change out a 150 amp panel to 200, you need to change the wire coming down from the power co connection, a new meter pan and the wire down to the panel.

Yes, I've done this 6 times, not taking it personally, you never know who you're taking to on the Internet. The first time I did it I was 16, learned a lot then. In any case, the service will be upgraded to 200AMPs. In all of the upgrades I did, I always changed out the meter can, riser, and weather head. 1) Because you have to (my PoCo requires it), but 2) it's cheap enough and why not just take it out of the equation even if you're not upgrading the service.

In my research for doing this one, I just saw a few things that weren't familiar to me. I think most of it is simply because of where the blogs or videos are filmed. It's quite a problem for us Floridians, as a lot of things that are considered best practices up north, are "death" for a house in Florida… Like attic ventilation… The 2 ground rods wouldn't hurt anything, but I don't want to do something "just because" I want to make sure it's being done for the right reason. I don't mind spending money for the right things.

The two ground rods you could lay sideways in the ground if you had to as long as they are six feet apart. The ground goes to the ground bar on the panel, no grounds go to the meter. The ground,neutral bars on the main panel are the same thing and you can put either one on it as long as it's not a sub panel. The reason they sell the panels with separate ground bars are because of the arc fault breakers that are being required for new construction,makes it easier.

Yes, I am familiar with bonding the neutral and ground in the panel with the main service disconnect. Even though you can mix the neutral and grounds in the main panel, I do find it looks cleaner to dedicate a set of bus bars to ground and a set to neutral.

The ground to the water meter goes to ground-neutral bar and that is installed in case a water pipe has a power wire hitting it, it will trip the breaker instead of you taking a shower and end up touching something that is grounded. In the new panel they will give you a bonding screw that must be screwed in to bond the neutral to the panel box. If your just going to replace the panel your just better off to take out the meter then take all wires out in one shot, install new panel and wires back in. Should take you about 4-5 hours for panel replacement only.

Yep, wouldn't think of using any of the existing wire, in fact I think if I tried I'd not get a pass from the inspector.

Funny story, my 3rd job I did (all my own houses), I called for a temporary connection so I could have power to run a drill and saw while I was home running some old circuits. The inspector took one look at my cleanly installed box and said, "Looks like you know what you're doing, I'm just going to do your final now." Felt pretty good when someone recognizes you're taking your time to do it right, and keep it clean.

 

[Mustang51js]

I didn't see the part about replacing wires up top until I read it again, so not sure what you were asking. A ground rod is only $8 so that's why I just put two in so I have no issues. When I do a service I disconnect the power to the house myself,replace everything and then hook power back up. After that you can call for an inspection and once that passes they give a cutting card to po co and they usually will make a final reconnection or most times they just look at it and don't do anything. They have been keeping same wires from the street for a new 200 amp service that was powering a 100 amp service. They are getting cheap lol. So if you have any questions feel free to ask,I know jersey stuff isn't always the same but from what I see nj is overkill from what most places do.

 

[sberry]

Here we have an upgrade inspection that looks at the new service install, we never hook any equipment to it, simply the service and the main box/grounding. If it can be moves its a one pass deal for the poco. After the inspection and waiting for the poco we temp heat up the new panel and move a lot of the circuits.

If its a must to use the same riser or locations there is no way around some down time, with schedule and planning it can occur quick, most times its a day or 2 for inspection.

Last one I did for a bud we went from overhead in the side of the house to a new underground on the end, made the main a sub. Pulled the heavy loads off of it and installed them on the new 200.

 

[chops101]

I can't add much other than my experiences here.
My previous house (built 1987) had the dreaded Federal Pacific panels and breakers. I ran into problems finding breakers when I wanted to add a welder, air comp, etc, and went to googling as to why the scarcity. Only then I learned of the fire hazards and lawsuits with FP. A new panel was now needed to replace the FP so I could sleep at night. I certainly could have wired a new panel myself DIY, but if something, anything happens electrical-wise and caused a fire, kiss your HO insurance goodbye. It was just not worth the risk as I had way too much to lose and did not want to roll the dice, I hired an electrical co. to install a new panel. Just something to think about.

I would suggest getting a panel that is standard enough that you can run to the box stores and buy breakers inexpensively, and yes a whole house surge protector in the main panel to suppress the spikes.

 

[sberry]

There are a lot of little details on some service upgrades, the big things are usually fairly easy to get right. Sizing the wire to incoming water line, a couple other bonding issues if there is steel framing. I coached my plumber bud thru his upgrade by phone a while back, passed inspection from a guy hates the diy crowd.