Woodworkers, old school hand tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

[BioNerd]

Hello friends,

I've been a finish carpenter since 2003.

I've learned a ton and used a ton of heavy shop and portable tools.

I'm now more inclined to do trim, hung doors and install hardware.

In a regular jobsite, we usually set up a work area with chopsaw, tablesaw, a work table, etc.

I find that there is a lot of walking around the house to make minute cuts or adjustments. so, I've made myself a smaller portable table, kind of like a Japanese workbench, where I can work on the floor. It's a shooting board tall enough to serve me as a step stool to reach most door headers comfortably.

I started using block and jack hand planes to scribe trim or trim doors, Japanese saws, and mostly trim head screws to avoid carrying a compressor and guns.

I've been thinking about getting a push drill/screwdriver to do some of the hardware... given that I'm quicker at mortising with chisels for the most part, I feel I can use as many old school hand tools as possible to carry less corded/battery operated equipment, be more mobile and learn the old ways.

I believe that with skill, some hand tools can even be more effective than their newer powered counterparts. And at the same time, acquire their skill and tradition.

Again, I do trim work, hung doors and install hardware. I would like input for these specific tasks in terms of what old timer hand tools could be useful.

Thank you!

Edit:

To al the ego trippers and chest puffers:

This thread has a pretty clear title, I'm not asking how to do anything. I'm asking if there is hand tools than can realistically be quicker than the usual power tools. The idea is to increase productivity, not to argue with some dude that talks like is working by my side and knows who he is talking about.

 

[Mavawreck]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

PM me your addy and I'll mail you a yankee 31 screwdriver if ya want it. Needs a locking ring, I have a few of them and it isn't worth it to me to fix it. Works, just doesn't lock.

 

[Packard V8]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

I've worked as a finish carpenter and love hand tools as much as any man. I've got most every variety of hand planes, chisels, Yankee screwdrivers, hand miter, crosscut and rip saws, brace and bits, hand drills. Hand tools are always my choice for most work.

Having said that, I don't know if I'd ever want to go back to hammering and setting finishing nails. The air nail gun has been the best thing which ever happed to trim work.

jack vines

 

[PugetDude]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

^^^+1^^^
Pin nailers are a close second.

Why would you want to maually pound nails or drive screws. both of which take 3x as long and are a lot more work to cover up when finishing ???

Nothing personal, but I'd throw you off the jobsite if you showed up with a stepstool, a little japanese saw, and a sack of finish nails to do a trim-out.

 

[turbowoodworker]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

I agree with Packard. I build furniture for fun, not for a living. While I really enjoy using hand tools (planes, carving tools) I can't see driving nails or using a hand brace in place of a good drill, or trying rip lumber by hand.

Working with wood allows us to to use hand, electric and pneumatic powered tools. I sometimes use what is expeditious or easy but often use what is fun. Again I do this for fun not profit. That is the beauty of a hobby.

 

[BioNerd]

Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

^^^+1^^^
Pin nailers are a close second.

Why would you want to maually pound nails or drive screws. both of which take 3x as long and are a lot more work to cover up when finishing ???

Nothing personal, but I'd throw you off the jobsite if you showed up with a stepstool, a little japanese saw, and a sack of finish nails to do a trim-out.

Nothing personal but:

Lol! I bet I'm quicker to run trim than most of u fools.



I use hand tools like hand planes to scribe. Way quicker and accurate than my peers using jigsaws, free handing on table saws, grinders and such.

I cut miters and **** joints with a festool track, using my stupid Japanese like portable workbench. I use my Japanese saw here and there, when necessary... Like to flush cut shims instead of using a damn fein multitool.

There are complex cuts that just can't be achieved with powertools señor, you need to know how to get tight joints.

I use a ratchet screwdriver on hardware, what is the option? Your impact driver?

I use 15g nails to hung door jambs, 18g rarely for some trim, 23 for some returns an small glue ups but I favor ulmia clamps and biscuits for miters, if you even know what that is.

Sometimes I adjust miters with sanding blocks, way faster than walking around to the chopsaw.

I'm not often in a paint grade slapping trim with quarter round or tons of caulk to hide messy gaps, we work high end and even if its paint grade our tolerance for gaps is very tight.

 

[BioNerd]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

Lol! Sorry if I sounded rude, I'm actually trying to be funny.

I forgot to mention that my preferred way of fastening trim is using finish trim head GRK screws, and reverse head thread kind for adjustments.

Nails are usually 18 for casing to jamb, and 15 for casing to stud.

 

[RivennHewn]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

Cool.

 

[Rust]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

Coping saw. Your not a trimmer without one.

Nothing personal but:

Lol! I bet I'm quicker to run trim than most of u fools.

not this fool.
and I can shingle faster than you.

 

[woody 73]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

The following are what dreams are made of:

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/core-tools/

Have fun looking.

 

[BioNerd]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

Coping saw. Your not a trimmer without one.



not this fool.
and I can shingle faster than you.

Haha! Man there is vaccination for that!

 

[BioNerd]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

The following are what dreams are made of:

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/core-tools/

Have fun looking.

Man, I'm waiting until I have a couple of hundreds saved to order some gadgets!!

 

[beamrider]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

rant

Trim and pin nailers are the worst friggin thing to hit the construction industry in a long time. Why?

You get a guy that knows what he is doing, with a bag of finish nails and a hammer, and I guarentee you'll get a better looking job. Cause that guy is careful where he puts the damn nails. That guy is setting the damn nails. That guy is actually going to nail the damn trim to the wall flush. And that guy is going to use the minimum number of nails to accomplish the job.

On the other hand, you get some clown with an air nailer, and he doesn't give a damn where the nail goes. He doesn't even care if the nail actually pins the trim to the wall. If it doesn't, no big deal, he just fires off another 10 nails in the same spot, until he hits pay dirt. If he mis-fires, screw it, he doesn't remove the nail, he just fires off another bunch of nails until the gun starts working correctly. And god forbid the depth is actually set correctly on a nailgun.

Can you tell I'm a painter? Can you tell I'm the poor slob who has to fill all those damn holes? Can you tell I'm about sick and tired of having to carry pliers around, so I can pull out all those mis-fired nails? Can you tell I'm sick of ripping my fingers up because every friggin nail from that gun is raised 1/16 above the wood?

Framing nailer, sure, no problem. Finish/brad/pin nailer? Oh boy, I could go on and on about how I hate those.....but I already have.

/rant

 

[Packard V8]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

You get a guy that knows what he is doing, with a bag of finish nails and a hammer, and I guarentee you'll get a better looking job. . . On the other hand, you get some clown with an air nailer, and he doesn't give a damn where the nail goes. He doesn't even care if the nail actually pins the trim to the wall. If it doesn't, no big deal, he just fires off another 10 nails in the same spot, until he hits pay dirt. If he mis-fires, screw it, he doesn't remove the nail, he just fires off another bunch of nails until the gun starts working correctly. And god forbid the depth is actually set correctly on a nailgun.

But give that guy who knows what he is doing an air nail gun and you'll get better finish carpentry in much less time. Just because some misuse the air nail gun doesn't make it a bad tool.

jack vines

 

[Mavawreck]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

oh lord, we had a trimmer out at a job site the other week that made me coin the term "machine gun nail pattern" I think there were 25+ nails in one leg of door casing.

 

[Rust]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

Haha! Man there is vaccination for that!

lmao! Yeah! It's called retired!

 

[Givl Reggin]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

Trim and pin nailers are the worst friggin thing to hit the construction industry in a long time... you get some clown with an air nailer, and he doesn't give a damn where the nail goes... he just fires off another 10 nails in the same spot, until he hits pay dirt.... Can you tell I'm the poor slob who has to fill all those damn holes? Can you tell I'm about sick and tired of having to carry pliers around, so I can pull out all those mis-fired nails? Can you tell I'm sick of ripping my fingers up because every friggin nail from that gun is raised 1/16 above the wood?

That's because he's using the cheapest compressor and nailer he can find (harbor freight anyone?)

I've posted this in another topic, but it applies here too... if I hire a professional to do work for me he better show up with a box full of professional grade tools and not Harbor Freight stuff or he's finding a new place to work. If I see someone doing work for me with a bunch of cheap tools/equipment it doesn't give me much confidence that he takes much pride in his work and it also makes me think he'll try to cut corners anywhere he can and cheap out on the work he's doing for me.

 

[BioNerd]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

oh lord, we had a trimmer out at a job site the other week that made me coin the term "machine gun nail pattern" I think there were 25+ nails in one leg of door casing.

lol, ive seen worse

 

[BioNerd]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

That's because he's using the cheapest compressor and nailer he can find (harbor freight anyone?)

I've posted this in another topic, but it applies here too... if I hire a professional to do work for me he better show up with a box full of professional grade tools and not Harbor Freight stuff or he's finding a new place to work. If I see someone doing work for me with a bunch of cheap tools/equipment it doesn't give me much confidence that he takes much pride in his work and it also makes me think he'll try to cut corners anywhere he can and cheap out on the work he's doing for me.

Well, I can't afford expensive tooling now but I'm working on it. I take pride on my work, not on my tools.

I pay attention to the way people have their tools. More than brands, I appreciate the way things are organized, or beat up... what are they used for...

I think I would assume similarly about someone been messy. And I look at people's work more than their gear.

Except when they are all festool, then I really have high expectations and if they **** is even a worse impression. Like when you see a ********* with an ugly old wealthy fart. In this case, it would be like "man, if I could afford those tools, I would honor their quality"... But to tell you the truth I've probably used them all at some point, routers, domino, sanders, jigsaw, kapex, track saw, drills, vacuums... Even the stupid table. I'm not very impressed.

For now, I live paycheck to paycheck. And I'm very skilled with some of my tools been cheap.

I can scribe baseboard dead on with my cheap $20 Stanley block plane because its true and sharp due to "my skill" truing that sole and honing that blade.

I worked with a guy that owned a LieNielsen apron block plane, like $150, and the gaps on his base where almost 1/16 in some places.
Had he used a cheaper plane, maybe I wouldn't be so hard on him.

It's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow.

I live in Oakland CA, and I can walk my words anytime.

I don't know man, I've seen some amazing bad *** work on stair rails for example from a guy whose tools where in a hella old hand made beat up wooden box, using strings and blue tape. The guy had some good pls lasers tho. His tools looked like they where inherited from his great grand father.

I've learned to respect and see the skill not the gear.

 

[BioNerd]

Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

Coping saw. Your not a trimmer without one.

You know, i tried using one once or twice and it was super difficult. I think in this case a powertool wins, my grinder gets most of it off and then I use other means such as rasp, sandpaper and block or a blade of some sort.

I don't think I can justify its use in the jobsite. I would need to practice more on my own time.

 

[Lippyp]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

Be careful with those Yankee screwdrivers, a kid I went to school with had an older brother who was a chippy (this is before cheap battery handtools were widely available) and he managed to accidentally unlock one he was carrying and literally speared one of his nuts, had to have it removed.

 

[bushmechanic]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

It's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow.

Agreed.

I've been going on about that for years, and I've actually driven many of the fast cars people bring up in argument.

As for traditional versus air and electric tools, I'm with the painter. For trim, get out a hammer and a set. It doesn't take that much longer.

Not once have I ever seen an air-fired trim nail that wasn't too shallow or too deep.

 

[Modern Jess]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

I've posted this in another topic, but it applies here too... if I hire a professional to do work for me he better show up with a box full of professional grade tools and not Harbor Freight stuff or he's finding a new place to work. If I see someone doing work for me with a bunch of cheap tools/equipment it doesn't give me much confidence that he takes much pride in his work and it also makes me think he'll try to cut corners anywhere he can and cheap out on the work he's doing for me.

Anyone ever tell you what the phrase "you can't judge a book by its cover" means?

Guess not.

BioNerd, ignore these clowns. Some people are just looking for any excuse to puff up their chest and show off their power tools, as if brand and amperage substituted for skill. It doesn't. I have great respect for someone who can do good work with simple tools.

 

[strutaeng]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

Dude, get a hacksaw, LOL!

I have no recommendations, except that I read that inside corners back in the day were never mitered, but coped. Since then I always cope my inside miters on trimwork around my house and have done it with a jigsaw and with a coping saw. The last step is always done by hand with files and sandpaper on dowels.

Actually, the wood rasp is good tool for shaping. I have a French-made, hand stitched Auriou rasp and it is joy to use, but I don't think it will see much action in trimwork. You might want to check out other specialized rasps/files:
http://www.lie-nielsen.com/files-rasps/

I assume you have a well honed block plane or rabbet plane? What about a shooting board with a low angle jack or miter plane for fine tuning cuts?

 

[Major Ramifications]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

Bionerd, my dad does everything by hand, and he is quite the perfectionist. My brother jokes that our dad is Amish, but that's just the way he learned.
A Yankee screwdriver and maybe a brace and bit would help complete your setup. My dad uses the piss out of his Yankee screwdriver.

 

[Mavawreck]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

Be careful with those Yankee screwdrivers, a kid I went to school with had an older brother who was a chippy (this is before cheap battery handtools were widely available) and he managed to accidentally unlock one he was carrying and literally speared one of his nuts, had to have it removed.

Come to think of it, the one I'm sending him might have part of a speared testicle on it. No wonder it was so cheap. I thought it was an olive.

 

[Givl Reggin]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

Anyone ever tell you what the phrase "you can't judge a book by its cover" means?

Sometime the cover is all you have to go on.

Professional quality tools means you're dealing with someone who is serious about their profession.

These tools are well-designed and built with plenty of power and to maintain accuracy. They are intended to work all day long, week after week. As the saying goes; "you get what you pay for."

It means there's not doing to be unexpected downtime in the middle of a job because of tool failure.

Professional-grade tools are well within a price range of competing tools. When you figure over the life of the tool the difference in cost becomes negligible.

Ultimately, it all comes down to taking pride in your work.

 

[Jim C.]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

For hinge and lock hardware, I like using a **** mortise plane. Give it a try. I think you'll find it to be the type of tool you may enjoy using.

Jim C.

 

[Modern Jess]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

Sometime the cover is all you have to go on.

I prefer to judge someone's work by their work. I would have thought this would be an obvious way to do it, but maybe I'm missing something.

Or maybe I'm not.

 

[jakemac]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

Sometime the cover is all you have to go on.

Professional quality tools means you're dealing with someone who is serious about their profession.

These tools are well-designed and built with plenty of power and to maintain accuracy. They are intended to work all day long, week after week. As the saying goes; "you get what you pay for."

It means there's not doing to be unexpected downtime in the middle of a job because of tool failure.

Professional-grade tools are well within a price range of competing tools. When you figure over the life of the tool the difference in cost becomes negligible.

Ultimately, it all comes down to taking pride in your work.

I've seen some mechanics with large truck brand set-ups, that did lousy work on my trucks. I would never go back to them again. The best mechanic I know (my grandmother's brother) got by with whatever tools he could find in the backwoods. He ran his own garage for 40yrs, people in town still knock on his door 15yrs after he retired.

I've seen the same with carpenters. Some with all the best bells and whistles, couldn't hammer a nail to save their souls. Others, with hardware store tools could raise a barn by themselves.

I prefer to judge someone's work by their work. I would have thought this would be an obvious way to do it, but maybe I'm missing something.

Or maybe I'm not.

^^^^ This ^^^^

 

[Zeke]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

Wow!

I'm impressed. Sounds like you are already the ****.

Nothing for you to learn here from all these talented, experienced professionals.

You go boy!

I think you nailed it right there. In my best year installing windows I spent $5000 on sundries like baseshoe, flat casing and caulk. That's a lot of trim to run out in a year by yourself not to mention putting the windows in as well (retrofit). I had to buy a few cases of gun nails and some other things, but I think I know my way around door and window trim.

Really only 3 tools needed: a portable table saw, miter saw (not some hulking 12 " either) and 2 nail guns, pinner and finish. BTW, I have a trim router mounted on the TS to make my own round overs.

Moving over to hanging doors I would not want to bevel those with a jack plane. A power planer produces a super nice finish if well set up that is superior to any hand planed finish I've ever seen and in a fraction of the time.

I too am pretty quick with a hammer and chisel for doing hinge and lock mortises. I do all my adjustments that way. But I'll be damned if I'm going to put away my router and jigs to do it all by hand. And I doubt I'd be happy with a brace and bit doing the face and edge bore for the lockset. Give me a jig and a Milwaukee Magnum Hole Shooter any day.

Having owned a French Door company I can't tell you how many locksets I have installed. I bought them in cases along with hinges. In fact, I used so many hinges that I found I could save a few dollars by buying them in bulk unassembled. 100 pounds of each side and a bucket of screws, US4 dull brass.

Not going to hand chisel for that lot.

 

[gearheadglen]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

A low angle adjustable mouth plane is very useful. You can buy a vintage millers falls on ebay cheap and they work better than any new ones made today for a reasonable price.

I second the coping saw... took a little practice but I can cope most joints quick and they look nice and tight

I also use some old quality eggbeater drills, great with a counter sink bit or for setting screws

 

[Mavawreck]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

A low angle adjustable mouth plane is very useful. You can buy a vintage millers falls on ebay cheap and they work better than any new ones made today for a reasonable price.

I do love my low angle, especially on endgrain.

 

[Rust]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

You know, i tried using one once or twice and it was super difficult. I think in this case a powertool wins, my grinder gets most of it off and then I use other means such as rasp, sandpaper and block or a blade of some sort.

I don't think I can justify its use in the jobsite. I would need to practice more on my own time.

You want old school?
I am giving it to you.
There is a trick. Mostly used for baseboard and chair rails. that sort of intersecting 90 degree.
Instead of 2, 45 degrees to meet in a corner. 90 degree the first, bump it to the wall, and then 45 degree the mating piece and follow the profile with the coping saw. Bam, Gapless miter. A little practice and you can get seamless 90degree corners. Heck the walls can be out of square and you still get a tight joint.
Hahaha! and a coping saw is alot lighter than any power tool!
2003 ehh?
I learned this in 1983...

 

[Zeke]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

Coping is used extensively with crown. You like coping? Get a Collins coping foot for your jig saw. No need to be hacking away with a hand saw. Dress your cuts with an angle grinder with a sanding disc mounted.

 

[BioNerd]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

Cool!

Well, I do use jigs, a laminate trimmer and a corner chisel if there is enough of the same to make sense to make a jig and all of that.

The problem is... We deal with handmade historic hardware sometimes and those suckers are all different.

I will share some pics from today:

My lil step stool, shooting board, seat, workbench with some of my tools:

Handsaw cut, hand planed to shape... Erasing a deadbolt lockset:

More workbench:

Example of the hardware:

More deleting of lockset, handsaw, hand plane, rasp, yes... One Hand nail:

How in the world I would use a power tool to flush cut like this?

 

[Zeke]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

Multi tool, that's how. I use them all the time. Wait until you have a wood floor to repair. I did that for years with a drill and a chisel. No more.

 

[805gregg]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

Only problem is who will pay you for all the extra time you take, (do you lower your price because you are slow?) I'll use power tools every time, reminds me of when Yvon Chouinard (owner of Patagonia) was building his new house on the Hollister Ranch in Santa Barbara county. He showed up at the jobsite and the carpenters were using generators (very remote site) and power tools to build his house, he said hay wait, I want this to be a green build, use hand tools (he is a nut), they said fine and all rolled up their cords and drove away. They were back 3 days later and built the house with power tools. Hand tools are great but so are power tools, each in it's own place

 

[BioNerd]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

Only problem is who will pay you for all the extra time you take, (do you lower your price because you are slow?) I'll use power tools every time, reminds me of when Yvon Chouinard (owner of Patagonia) was building his new house on the Hollister Ranch in Santa Barbara county. He showed up at the jobsite and the carpenters were using generators (very remote site) and power tools to build his house, he said hay wait, I want this to be a green build, use hand tools (he is a nut), they said fine and all rolled up their cords and drove away. They were back 3 days later and built the house with power tools. Hand tools are great but so are power tools, each in it's own place

Why r u sayin I'm slow?

There is stuff that is done quicker with hand tools. The whole point of this thread is to save time.
If I see that I'm wasting time I would change the method.

Fein tool for that would be a mess. It took like 8 strokes from that hand saw. I have a fein tool, but this is a door that is already painted.

 

[BioNerd]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

Coping is used extensively with crown. You like coping? Get a Collins coping foot for your jig saw. No need to be hacking away with a hand saw. Dress your cuts with an angle grinder with a sanding disc mounted.

I have a grinder with sanding disc and another one with a metal cutter. No wasting time changing set up.

-------

To al the ego trippers and chest puffers:

This thread has a pretty clear title, I'm not asking how to do anything. I'm asking if there is hand tools than can realistically be quicker than the usual power tools. The idea is to increase productivity, not to argue with some dude that talks like is working by my side and knows who he is talking about.