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The VISES of Garage Journal

tedsters

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Oct 29, 2012
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Location
Michigan
Craftsman 4 1/2 crown logo 51840

just bought this today now i need to go get it need some more things to grab on the way its in Hinckley, Ohio.
its actually in pretty good shape wish it had the swivel matches my 3 1/2 swivel
 

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AndrewH

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Sep 8, 2013
Messages
685
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Three Rivers, MI
Re: Craftsman 4 1/2 crown logo 51840

just bought this today now i need to go get it need some more things to grab on the way its in Hinckley, Ohio.
its actually in pretty good shape wish it had the swivel matches my 3 1/2 swivel

lol, want me to pick it up for you? I'm in Ohio right now, on my way to Youngstown to pick up a large vise. You know my phone number.

Andrew

Edit: I'll be passing right through Hinckley in about an hour and then on the way back in another 4 hours or so.
 

Grimly

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Joined
Feb 5, 2014
Messages
181
Location
Ireland
Paramo 4.5" vice

At last, finally picked up a decent vice, locally. It wasn't a steal, cost me €120, but I consider that a good buy for the quality and especially compared to the price of an equivalent new one. Hard to tell the story behind this one, but it's not been abused, the jaws are a bit marked on top, but no other damage I can see, and no wear to speak of.
No sign of a model number on it, so who knows what it was designated as. Given the history of Paramo, I wonder if it's one of the really old ones before they developed a range of sizes. This might have been the first and only size they made, at the time.
It's even still got the casting flash marks on the back of the fixed head, so no gorillas have been hammering on the non-existent anvil, as so many do.
I'm quite pleased with this...
 

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AndrewH

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Joined
Sep 8, 2013
Messages
685
Location
Three Rivers, MI
Re: Paramo 4.5" vice

At last, finally picked up a decent vice, locally. It wasn't a steal, cost me €120, but I consider that a good buy for the quality and especially compared to the price of an equivalent new one. Hard to tell the story behind this one, but it's not been abused, the jaws are a bit marked on top, but no other damage I can see, and no wear to speak of.
No sign of a model number on it, so who knows what it was designated as. Given the history of Paramo, I wonder if it's one of the really old ones before they developed a range of sizes. This might have been the first and only size they made, at the time.
It's even still got the casting flash marks on the back of the fixed head, so no gorillas have been hammering on the non-existent anvil, as so many do.
I'm quite pleased with this...

That appears to be a very nice vise! Though I'm personally more of a swivel base kind of guy, but I'd probably have bought it as well! We definitely need some specs, jaw width, how much does it weigh, are you planning to restore it or use as is?
 

drivesitfar

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Oct 23, 2013
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Location
Pacific Northwest
Andrew: you are not only buying almost as many vises as Big Caddy and a few others, but not you are the enabler too. good luck on your quest for a "Big Un" today and looking forward to more pictures.

I haven't posted for a while but this Record i bought yesterday might not have been used and I'm guessing it's 15 or so years old.

also a Starrett 4.5 incher and maybe 3 times that older or older and a neglected gem. the grey is going into the "E" bath pretty soon and might do that one in a nice "linseed oil" color.

Happy Mothers day to all you son's and daughters and MOMS.

Edit: Grimly that is a great old vise and looks like 1940's vintage. any chance you can give us the jaw width and the weight? I've got a couple old Paramo vices and neither look half as cool as yours. Nice find and no you didn't pay too much for that one.
 

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tedsters

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Oct 29, 2012
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Location
Michigan
Re: Craftsman 4 1/2 crown logo 51840

lol, want me to pick it up for you? I'm in Ohio right now, on my way to Youngstown to pick up a large vise. You know my phone number.

Andrew

Edit: I'll be passing right through Hinckley in about an hour and then on the way back in another 4 hours or so.

i will call you i have to look your number up, Thanks Bro :D
 

Grimly

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Joined
Feb 5, 2014
Messages
181
Location
Ireland
Re: Paramo 4.5" vice

That appears to be a very nice vise! Though I'm personally more of a swivel base kind of guy, but I'd probably have bought it as well! We definitely need some specs, jaw width, how much does it weigh, are you planning to restore it or use as is?

4-1/2" across the jaws, 51.5 lbs. There's nothing needs mechanical restoration (the marked jaws might be reversible), just paint, so I'll see if I can find the proper colour, or as close to it as I can get, locally.
 

Jan-Sietze

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Feb 9, 2014
Messages
34
Location
The Netherlands
Re: Paramo 4.5" vice

At last, finally picked up a decent vice, locally. It wasn't a steal, cost me €120, but I consider that a good buy for the quality and especially compared to the price of an equivalent new one. Hard to tell the story behind this one, but it's not been abused, the jaws are a bit marked on top, but no other damage I can see, and no wear to speak of.
No sign of a model number on it, so who knows what it was designated as. Given the history of Paramo, I wonder if it's one of the really old ones before they developed a range of sizes. This might have been the first and only size they made, at the time.
It's even still got the casting flash marks on the back of the fixed head, so no gorillas have been hammering on the non-existent anvil, as so many do.
I'm quite pleased with this...

Jan-Sietze said:
According to The Workbench Book the Paramo vices were first produced during WW2.
Just after the Record Vice factory was bombed in 1940, there was a shortage of Vices.
It dawned on everyone by the vices of great importance for the war industry.
The British government gave permission to the foundry of F. Parramore & Sons Ltd. to produce record. Vices
The company which was the casting of steel tubes known could produce solid and precious folk vices with the knowledge and people of Record under the name Paramo.

This ad is from 1951:


That's all I know of the firm Parramore...
 

JeremyBurke

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Nov 5, 2013
Messages
609
Location
Near Portland, OR
snip



I haven't posted for a while but this Record i bought yesterday might not have been used and I'm guessing it's 15 or so years old.



also a Starrett 4.5 incher and maybe 3 times that older or older and a neglected gem. the grey is going into the "E" bath pretty soon and might do that one in a nice "linseed oil" color.



Snip


Those are some great looking vises. :thumbup:
 

Grimly

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Feb 5, 2014
Messages
181
Location
Ireland
Re: Paramo 4.5" vice

This ad is from 1951:


That's all I know of the firm Parramore...

Interesting - that ad shows a push-button quick-release action.
Mine has the normal Record-type lever, so I wonder if the push-button design was to get away from Record's patents.
 

zkling

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Joined
Jan 23, 2007
Messages
16,939
Re: Paramo 4.5" vice

At last, finally picked up a decent vice, locally. It wasn't a steal, cost me €120, but I consider that a good buy for the quality and especially compared to the price of an equivalent new one. Hard to tell the story behind this one, but it's not been abused, the jaws are a bit marked on top, but no other damage I can see, and no wear to speak of.
No sign of a model number on it, so who knows what it was designated as. Given the history of Paramo, I wonder if it's one of the really old ones before they developed a range of sizes. This might have been the first and only size they made, at the time.
It's even still got the casting flash marks on the back of the fixed head, so no gorillas have been hammering on the non-existent anvil, as so many do.
I'm quite pleased with this...

The castings make that think look like a tank. :thumbup:
 

drivesitfar

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Oct 23, 2013
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Pacific Northwest
Please correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't the owner of Paramo a relative of the Record vise company's owner? Didn't Record either split up to other companies because of WWII or get forced to by England so the Germans couldn't take out the only tool maker with one hit?

Grimly i'd say your vise is even prior to WWII with the style and heft to it.
 

AndrewH

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Three Rivers, MI
Re: Craftsman 4 1/2 crown logo 51840

thats awesome I saw that on CL I live about 30 minutes from Hinckley. I guess with all you GJ'ers around here I probably won't find any vises, ever. :(

lol, you gotta be on the ball, if someone locally doesn't ****** a vise up within a couple days of posting it, us out-of-towners will come get them! I just picked up tedsters vise, and I got mine earlier. We're all on the way home now, I'll be posting pictures in 3 hours or so.
 

exmaxima1

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Jun 25, 2011
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Midwest
Re: Paramo 4.5" vice

4-1/2" across the jaws, 51.5 lbs. There's nothing needs mechanical restoration (the marked jaws might be reversible), just paint, so I'll see if I can find the proper colour, or as close to it as I can get, locally.

You have a quick release model, very similar to the Record 23/24/25. At 4.5 inches, it is a fraction of an inch bigger than my Record 23 (measures 4-3/8), but I just weighed mine at 59 lbs, so not sure about the differences in the castings.

The price is not all that bad for a quality vise with QR. It's an awesome vise!
 

jjjrmx5

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Joined
Dec 30, 2010
Messages
3,431
Location
Cincinnati, OH
To show you how much "GJ vise overload" got me but I beat the "habit" , today at the small turnout outdoor flea, a woman had a 3.5" jaw Columbian fixed base Made In Cleveland,OH machinists bench vice for $10 (and I bet she would have taken $6-8) that I passed on. Slight rust patina but jaws were fine and everything else fully functional.

Little wd40 and good as new I bet, but I can't buy any more. I.......can't.

If it's there next week, well...it may be bought to go to GJ buyer.

I;d just hate to see it go to scrap.

:)
 

zkling

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Jan 23, 2007
Messages
16,939
today at the small turnout outdoor flea, a woman had a 3.5" jaw Columbian fixed base Made In Cleveland,OH machinists bench vice for $10 (and I bet she would have taken $6-8) that I passed on.

Was it an exposed screw vise, one of the bent steel slides or the full cast miniature vise?
 

tedsters

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Oct 29, 2012
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Michigan
Re: Craftsman 4 1/2 crown logo 51840

thats awesome I saw that on CL I live about 30 minutes from Hinckley. I guess with all you GJ'ers around here I probably won't find any vises, ever. :(

you will find one be patient, its a lot of foot work finding them how big of one you looking for
 

Grimly

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Feb 5, 2014
Messages
181
Location
Ireland
I've found a little bit of history.
The fore-runner of Record/Paramo and the others was the Parkinson Perfect Vise and this Paramo is the dead spit of the later Parkinson no.7, only real difference I can see is mitred-top of the slide on the Paramo.
So, the essential base design of this vice goes back to the 1880s (and it's amazing how the continuity is there, allegedly some parts from current Irwin/Record vices will fit those), with improvements and detail differences. I suppose if a design is right, it's right.

With apologies to those whose pics I've filched...

1. The Parkinson Perfect Vise (the American spelling was deliberate on his part, being a fine moral Victorian, etc)
Original
7pgdSU9.jpg


Later version
MO4ycYi.jpg


2. A Parkinson no7 currently on ebay
VOYlt2d.jpg


3. Mine
cRhDNgN.jpg


So, if the story of alternate war production is true, Paramo used out-of-patent original design work and simply forged ahead. That explains the identical QR to Record, as they were also using an expired design anyway. It might have put Record's noses out of joint but it was quite legal.
 

rmalkow2

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Jun 26, 2009
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Location
Brighton, MI
I picked up this vise this past week along with the work bench its attached to from a local industrial auction. Got a great price for both items but due to work and other obligations I was not able to do a personal inspection before bidding closed and had to trust in the photos they provided.
So from this shot it looks dirty but ok.
vise 1.jpg
And again closer in it still looks well used but intact, bent handle but that is not unusual.
vise 2.jpg
It shows that this is a well used item and somewhat abused over its years.
vise 4.jpg
But walked around to the other side and OUCH!
Relaired once and broken again.
vise 3.jpg
It does work and with some minor repair, clean up and adjustment it will probably be usable for light to medium duty. I don't abuse my vises so hopefully I can get some service.
Still trying to figure out the logo and what this brand is. It may not be from USA origin unfortunately. If anyone recognizes the logo let me know.
 
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McBrownie

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Cleveland, OH
Re: Craftsman 4 1/2 crown logo 51840

lol, want me to pick it up for you? I'm in Ohio right now, on my way to Youngstown to pick up a large vise. You know my phone number.

Andrew

Edit: I'll be passing right through Hinckley in about an hour and then on the way back in another 4 hours or so.

Now I know why there is so much traffic in Cleveland on the weekends. Garage Journal. Mystery solved! :3gears:
 

GETRIDAONE

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May 21, 2013
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Auburn, GA
I picked up this vise this past week along with the work bench its attached to from a local industrial auction. Got a great price for both items but due to work and other obligations I was not able to do a personal inspection before bidding closed and had to trust in the photos they provided.
So from this shot it looks dirty but ok.
vise 1.jpg
And again closer in it still looks well used but intact, bent handle but that is not unusual.
vise 2.jpg
It shows that this is a well used item and somewhat abused over its years.
vise 4.jpg
But walked around to the other side and OUCH!
Relaired once and broken again.
vise 3.jpg
It does work and with some minor repair, clean up and adjustment it will probably be usable for light to medium duty. I don't abuse my vises so hopefully I can get some service.
Still trying to figure out the logo and what this brand is. It may not be from USA origin unfortunately. If anyone recognizes the logo let me know.

It is a Polish FPU / Bison It seems there is a flaw or a weak spot and the corner breaks off. It is common on most of them you see and in the same place.
 

rmalkow2

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Brighton, MI
RM: looks like I nice polish vise. On my cell so can't see issues you mention. The static jaw moves back and dynamic stays in place

It is a Polish FPU / Bison It seems there is a flaw or a weak spot and the corner breaks off. It is common on most of them you see and in the same place.

Thanks for the feedback guys. I'll have to do a little more research on them. Since I'm part Polish/Russian I guess I'm duty bound to keep it alive and in service.
 

C.BRAXMAIER

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Apr 17, 2012
Messages
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AndrewH on your way home you could go through Allen and pick your self up a nice C1 for cheap!!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk
 

jjjrmx5

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Cincinnati, OH
Was it an exposed screw vise, one of the bent steel slides or the full cast miniature vise?

It was full cast machinists otherwise I would have not even asked a price.
GJ has made me such a vice geek. LOLZ.

At first I thought it was a center stud single bolt thru-mount old skool mount but it did have a multi-hole bolt-thru base.

I was in "meh" tool buying mode today. What can I say.
:)
 

AndrewH

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Sep 8, 2013
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685
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Three Rivers, MI
Well... after leaving at 9am and getting back at 8pm, here are the vises...

Trip Mileage:

20140511_195326.jpg


The Craftsman 5184 that I picked up for Tedsters, this vise is in absolutely awesome condition! It appears to be hardly used...oh and it weighs it at 53 lbs or so..

20140511_214041.jpg


20140511_210409.jpg


And here's the Ridgid 60FCPN that I picked up.. and I didn't pay anywhere near the $600 he had it listed for..

20140511_205735.jpg


20140511_205757.jpg


20140511_210209.jpg


20140511_205829.jpg


20140511_205726.jpg


20140511_213441.jpg


It weighs in at 160 lbs, the pipe jaws look to have been never used. The freakin handle is 1" solid steel bar, no wonder why its not bent!!

Enjoy!
 

McBrownie

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Location
Cleveland, OH
Well... after leaving at 9am and getting back at 8pm, here are the vises...

First I figured out the weekend traffic in Cleveland is so busy. And now, I know why Michigan now reads "True North" on my compass. That is a massive pile of heavy iron! Way to go!
 

tedsters

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Oct 29, 2012
Messages
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Michigan
Andrew

that rigid is a monster glad you got it, and just think i was the first one to call on the 53cp next to it i did not realize it was that big what was i thinking, i am sure glad i posted on here i need to get the Craftsman back here you helped me out big time i appreciate you picking it up for me and after talking with you on it to really find out how good a shape the 5184 is in ,
you did good on the Rigid.

Thanks Andrew,

Ted
 

jpickar

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May 21, 2010
Messages
964
Well... after leaving at 9am and getting back at 8pm, here are the vises...

Trip Mileage:

20140511_195326.jpg


The Craftsman 5184 that I picked up for Tedsters, this vise is in absolutely awesome condition! It appears to be hardly used...oh and it weighs it at 53 lbs or so..

20140511_214041.jpg


20140511_210409.jpg


And here's the Ridgid 60FCPN that I picked up.. and I didn't pay anywhere near the $600 he had it listed for..

20140511_205735.jpg


20140511_205757.jpg


20140511_210209.jpg


20140511_205829.jpg


20140511_205726.jpg


20140511_213441.jpg


It weighs in at 160 lbs, the pipe jaws look to have been never used. The freakin handle is 1" solid steel bar, no wonder why its not bent!!

Enjoy!

My wife was impressed you put cloths down on the counter to put the vises on! I'm impressed the counter held up for the pic. They are Huge!

John
 

454ragtop

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Mar 24, 2008
Messages
5,011
Location
Carver, MA
Picked up a couple at the swap meet this weekend. First is a Prentiss 504, other sad ******* is a Wilton mechanics vise, which is missing the clip to hold the screw in the sliding jaw, and also has a badly seized swivel clamp bolt. Gave $25. for the Prentiss, $10. for the Wilton. Also picked up a 4" Scout for $5., but no pics, flipped it for $15. at the swap meet today.
Jim
 

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KMScott

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Daufuskie Island, South Carolina
That Prentiss is nice 454, I wish I was close to a swap meet. I fit a new set of jaws on this American Standard # 55 this evening. Vise was very rough when I started but with a little work, new handle and jaws, tightened up the slop in the spindle it is ready for paint.
 

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oldldh

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May 22, 2012
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Fairhope, AL
Reverend Scott,

Ya Dun Gud, Bubba!!!


Were your latest "saves" from the great Colorado Vise Hoard???


Do you give yourself a discount on the new jaws???
 

KMScott

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Daufuskie Island, South Carolina
Reverend Scott,

Ya Dun Gud, Bubba!!!


Were your latest "saves" from the great Colorado Vise Hoard???


Do you give yourself a discount on the new jaws???

1st one almost done from the Golden Pile, 39 more to go, that 5" Red Seal is a nice medium sized vise. These jaws were practice. Still learning how to be a jaw Maker. I put a coarse serration on these 6 and 8" jaws for the Wilton's and I like it. Do you have a opinion Oldie, The old serrations were built with a 3/32 pitch x .04 deep, the new set has a 1/8 pitch and are cut .055 deep.
 

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oldldh

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Fairhope, AL
Do you have a opinion Oldie, The old serrations were built with a 3/32 pitch x .04 deep, the new set has a 1/8 pitch and are cut .055 deep.


Being a semi-functional fellow...with a great grasp of the obvious...:bounce::bounce:


Those jaws look fine to me...15/1,000th's deeper, would, appear to me to be a longer lasting set of jaws...and since I'm a total putz in a machine shop---I bow to your expertise...:bowdown::bowdown:

There wouldn't happen to be a Craftsman 5197/98 in the Golden pile, by any chance???...Broken would even be OK... :drool::drool:
 

Carla

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Nov 27, 2010
Messages
672
1st one almost done from the Golden Pile, 39 more to go, that 5" Red Seal is a nice medium sized vise. These jaws were practice. Still learning how to be a jaw Maker. I put a coarse serration on these 6 and 8" jaws for the Wilton's and I like it. Do you have a opinion Oldie, The old serrations were built with a 3/32 pitch x .04 deep, the new set has a 1/8 pitch and are cut .055 deep.

Well, I'll offer you a thought, if I may.......have you any idea as to how much time various machinists and toolmakers have, over the years, put into carefully setting vise jaws up in the surface grinder to remove the factory serrations, and so have accurately flat, high finish jaws, which wouldn't leave 'idiot marks' in workpieces?

Going back into history, blacksmiths wanted jaw serrations on the old-style 'leg-vises, as they had to hold the iron firmly whilst hot-forming it in the vise, and vise jaw marks were of little or no concern in hand-forged parts.

Apparently, the jaw serrations became a 'custom' and were desirable for certain types of rough work, such as that done in welding and fabrication shops......but the folks who did a nicer quality of work had to either precision grind their vise jaws, or make copper jaw covers. The copper covers generally work alright, to be sure, but are an inconvenience for some work.

True enough, the listings for such vises as the Reed and Athol, 'back in the day' would specify 'smooth jaws optional'...and for whatever reason, the generality of supply houses more commonly stocked the serrated-jaw variety.

Anyway.......If I may make a suggestion, it would be to offer high-quality replacement jaws with a precision-ground finish, for those who do a higher quality of work.

Anther question comes to mind. Would it be a worthwhile project to take measurements of the main screw nut on several makes of common American machinists' vises, to see whether it could be feasible to have 'nut blanks' cast in one of the high-strength bronzes, say, an aluminium-bronze?

One of my 'get around to it someday' projects is a 6" Parker, of wartime (40's) vintage, which had the main screw nut cast of a rather amazingly soft cast iron (war substitute material?). That nut has worn enough to merit replacement, even tho the vise is otherwise in excellent condition. I've been thinking of having a nut blank cast, and threading it to suit the screw,

If the main screw nuts are close enough in size/configuration between the common makes, it just might be a feasible project to make 'nut blanks' of a good bronze as a product item, dimensioned to allow enough metal to allow that part for several makes to be done with the same casting, with relatively little machining to fit the individual vise.

I'd think that the ones for the common 4", 4'1/2", and 6" jaw sizes would be the ones most likely to be desirable.

(you see where I'm going with this.......if someone were to be in the business of supplying reproduction parts for older vises, I'd rather be able to just purchase a 'nut blank' of a high-quality bronze 'off the shelf' than have to do up a pattern, go to the foundry, etc, for just one part.......and I don't want to be in such a business, myself.....I get to be 'retired' these days, and have too many 'get around to it' projects as is.)

Added on edit........the nut has to be either cast iron or bronze, as making a replacement nut of steel of the same approx hardness as the screw would result in galling under load......the Reed Co. did, indeed, make the main nuts of steel, beginning in the late '40's/early '50's sometime, but they case-hardened those steel nuts, for enough differential in hardness to avoid galling.....so the screw would wear, instead of the nut.

That really didn't matter too very much, when a replacement screw and nut were inexpensive 'off-the-shelf' items as one's local supply house, but, now......well.....

cheers

Carla
 
Last edited:

Grimly

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Feb 5, 2014
Messages
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Ireland
Well, I'll offer you a thought, if I may.......have you any idea as to how much time various machinists and toolmakers have, over the years, put into carefully setting vise jaws up in the surface grinder to remove the factory serrations, and so have accurately flat, high finish jaws, which wouldn't leave 'idiot marks' in workpieces?

Going back into history, blacksmiths wanted jaw serrations on the old-style 'leg-vises, as they had to hold the iron firmly whilst hot-forming it in the vise, and vise jaw marks were of little or no concern in hand-forged parts.

Apparently, the jaw serrations became a 'custom' and were desirable for certain types of rough work, such as that done in welding and fabrication shops......but the folks who did a nicer quality of work had to either precision grind their vise jaws, or make copper jaw covers. The copper covers generally work alright, to be sure, but are an inconvenience for some work.
Absolutely.
The jaws on mine, I notice, are marked on top from the odd careless hacksaw or file stroke, but are machined flat on the mating surfaces. Given that most of the vice work I do doesn't need gripper marks on it, this will be very handy. I also notice the securing screws are now flush with the mating faces, pointing to the jaws being 1/8" thinner than originally, lending credence to them being skimmed and not just turned around or ordered like that.
 
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