Working Hot

[Norcal]

I haven't seen it mentioned but I always assume the circuit is hot until I have checked it with a non contact voltage indicator. I have seen cook tops that were wired incorrectly to two different double pole breakers. Turned the one marked off and the 120 volt indicator lights on the top were out but the other leg still had 120 volts on it but nothing showed on until I used a screwdriver to start removing wires. Found the other wire was connected about 4 breakers down in the fuse box. When I was a appliance technician I carried one in my pocket at all times and checked just about everything before I would even touch the appliance. I had seen dryers ground/neutral wired to line voltage enough not to trust any bodies wiring without checking. I have seen frig spark when copper water line was attached. Everything is hot until you prove it's not.

I consider those testers to be a toy, too many false readings rather use a Wiggy that has been tested on a known live circuit.

 

[r_olson_06]

Being an industrial electrician there are times that items need to powered up for either safety or testing. You would not want to shut down a life critical piece of equipment such as an inlet fan suppling fresh air or and exhaust fan taking harmful atmosphere and venting it. As stated before make all accominidations to work on the system DEAD. If not possible consult NFPA 70E. With working on live circuits PPE should be worn. Examples during 480 volt work and KAIC rating over 30,000A a 40 cal arc flash suit should be worn. when voltage and available fault current go down the level of protection go down. Also if you do not know what you are doing you should be afraid.
Here is a pic of the common arc flash suit:
https://www.google.com/search?q=arc...884f-8869-4e94-a0ff-c4832a1756a8.aspx;250;330

Just remember the "Suits Save Lives"
Also with the 240 volt being more dangerous than 120 volt. You have the same potential to ground by touching 1 leg of a 240 volt system as a 120 volt system in the USA of course not European (which runs 240 volt to ground). So there is no different unless you touch both legs at the same time

 

[kaffine]

I've never understood that about working on life support equipment hot. Now if I mess up not only do I become a possible victim that will need to be saved but now they have all the people that are depending on the life support system to rescue.

Granted none of my equipment is considered life support thankfully. So I am probably just not thinking of why you don't have the option. I would hope most have enough redundancy that parts can be shut down without causing problems.

 

[JohnX14]

Go for it, it's just 120V. It might bite, you but it probably wont kill you. You might damage your tools too, so be carefull with those someone might want them after your 'done'.

I haven't read this whole thread, but this is the most ignorant statement I have ever read on any forum in my life. Great way to get a fellow member killed. 120V kills. Seen the pool tragedies on the news lately?

 

[JohnX14]

Any stats on how many of those were electricians and not just a homeowner,and I'm sure those stats are for everybody such as kids sticking things in an outlet. Only way I can see someone getting killed changing a hot outlet is if they have a heart problem. I have a better chance getting killed falling off a ladder or driving to the job than getting electrocuted but that doesn't mean I have to walk to the jobs or set up a scaffold

You must be confusing getting "zapped" with electrocution. Get in line with either the ungrounded or grounded current carrying conductor on a 15 amp circuit supplying one 60 watt light bulb and tell me your thoughts. Oh, that's right, you can't get hurt on the white wire, right?

Sure, grab the "hot" and touch the "neutral" and it feels like a bee sting. Get in line, and it totally different.

Less than half an amp across anyone's heart can kill them. Heart condition or not.

 

[GCncsuHD]

...Not to mention it's part of my job and that's the risk I take,same as me being a firefighter also,it's a risk you have going into it.

About the dumbest analogy I've seen...As a FF/EMT, you can be damn sure I will inconvenience as many people as I feel I need to, to insure 1. My safety, 2. My team's safety, 3. The victim's safety and 4. Property.

Would I dive into an unstable car that could shift and crush me or one of my guys without cribbing and stabilizing it first? Hell no.

Am I going to treat that patient in the car with traffic buzzing by at 70mph just feet from me? Hell No, I'm going to place an apparatus between me and the traffic, blocking off whatever lanes we deem necessary to protect ourselves.

Would I go into a burning building to save one person without first insuring that me and my guys had taken every precaution necessary to not become another group of victims to have to be rescued and risk the lives of not only ourselves but those tasked with rescuing the rescuers? Hell no.

Am I going to go treat that O/D'd druggy in the corner that is bleeding, vomiting and surrounded in needles with no gloves on and in shorts and flip flops? Hell no. I am going to take every precaution I can to make sure I keep everyone including myself safe before taking action lest I become a victim and a burden to others myself.

Sure risks are certainly inherent to the job, stupidity is not, common sense is a job requirement.

So as for me, yes that breaker is going to be off for me to service it. Are there situations where you must test/repair hot? Yes, but there are precautions to take before doing so, and should be done by a trained professional, and that is a last resort.

For the typical homeowner changing a receptacle/light switch, flip the breaker, I don't want to have to be disturbed from my Saturday afternoon project to go perform CPR on your dumb *** because you were too lazy to reset the alarm clock so you decided to work on it hot.

 

[Mustang51js]

You guys do whatever you want,shut the whole city down for all I care,if you don't feel comfortable working hot then don't do it. I have no issues doing it and know my limits and what I'm comfortable doing. This thread is getting old

 

[MBfreak]

NO WAY.

And some big compnies are catching up.

ABB has a corporate electrical safety manual that prohibits live working on any job that ABB runs, so contractors are included.

Have been into electrical engineering, site work and industry repair work included for close to 50 years and seen three fatalities and 2 severe burns.

All caused by disregard of strict safety rules. One MIGHT have been a suicide though.

The most tragic was a fatality at a nuclear power plant.

Ola

 

[Makoto]

I replaced a 220 plug with a modern outlet when we got our new (old) house. Final check to make sure I flipped the right breaker and POP, i was seeing spots for a while, and my screwdriver tip was melted.

Call me a little girl but I got some inhibitions about that kind of juice flowing straight up to my heart on t he way to the ground.

 

[Mustang51js]

I replaced a 220 plug with a modern outlet when we got our new (old) house. Final check to make sure I flipped the right breaker and POP, i was seeing spots for a while, and my screwdriver tip was melted.

Call me a little girl but I got some inhibitions about that kind of juice flowing straight up to my heart on t he way to the ground.

That's the reason you need the right testers and tools,if I don't have them then I won't work hot and even when I do turn stuff off I still treat it as live. And I'm only talking 120volt switches and outlets

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Ive had to work hot on 480v irrigation pump panels many times. A lot of pumping stations have feed through cans and the only disconnect is on the pump panel. A lot of times, the pump panel needs to be swapped in an emergency to get water flowing again and the PoCo takes too long to get there or wants 2-3days lead time. Customer just doesnt have that when crops are dying.

 

[JohnX14]

You guys do whatever you want,shut the whole city down for all I care,if you don't feel comfortable working hot then don't do it. I have no issues doing it and know my limits and what I'm comfortable doing. This thread is getting old

The big problem here is that someone here with a little knowledge here may get killed if they listen to you. I work stuff live every day. But I would never say 120 isn't dangerous. I'm new here and this is getting old even for me. You clearly have just enough knowledge to be dangerous. I could care less what risks you take. But to provide false info to those unknowing is wrong in every way when it comes to someone's safety.

 

[Mustang51js]

Ive had to work hot on 480v irrigation pump panels many times. A lot of pumping stations have feed through cans and the only disconnect is on the pump panel. A lot of times, the pump panel needs to be swapped in an emergency to get water flowing again and the PoCo takes too long to get there or wants 2-3days lead time. Customer just doesnt have that when crops are dying.

Next week I need to replace a meter pan,200 amp 3 phase. Will be doing it live because it needs to be done at a certain time and poco won't be there,so I need to be careful and if I'm not on here next week you know what happened.

 

[JohnX14]

Next week I need to replace a meter pan,200 amp 3 phase. Will be doing it live because it needs to be done at a certain time and poco won't be there,so I need to be careful and if I'm not on here next week you know what happened.

I would do the same. All I want everyone to k is is that 120 can kill.

 

[rockwithjason]

part of what is driving the no hot work movement is that fact that the legal environment has changed. companies can no longer push the liability onto contractors. if a contractor blows up it's still on the parent company to go thru all of the legal hoops now. it used to be that companies contracted out all the risk by pointing the finger at the contractor if something went wrong.

 

[JohnX14]

Thread topic is drifting. Personally I see no problem for qualified individuals with the proper PPE working things live. (OSHA prohibits it and 70E allows under limited circumstances) And I realize it is because society is changing.

 

[Mustang51js]

The big problem here is that someone here with a little knowledge here may get killed if they listen to you. I work stuff live every day. But I would never say 120 isn't dangerous. I'm new here and this is getting old even for me. You clearly have just enough knowledge to be dangerous. I could care less what risks you take. But to provide false info to those unknowing is wrong in every way when it comes to someone's safety.

Can you explain to me where I told people to do it hot,I never said it was safe to do it,I just posted that I work with live stuff everyday and have no problems with it. Then everyone jumps in to say it will kill you and never do anything hot. Obviously if you don't know what you are doing you shouldn't do it hot and prob shouldn't do it at all, because that's when people hurt themselves.

 

[Mustang51js]

part of what is driving the no hot work movement is that fact that the legal environment has changed. companies can no longer push the liability onto contractors. if a contractor blows up it's still on the parent company to go thru all of the legal hoops now. it used to be that companies contracted out all the risk by pointing the finger at the contractor if something went wrong.

I own my own business and work by myself, if I hire someone and they don't feel safe working hot I have no issues turning off power,I won't force anyone to do it but would do it myself if needed. I am experienced enough that I haven't been shocked in years because I know my limits and have techniques that keep me from getting hit.

 

[JohnX14]

Can you explain to me where I told people to do it hot,I never said it was safe to do it,I just posted that I work with live stuff everyday and have no problems with it. Then everyone jumps in to say it will kill you and never do anything hot. Obviously if you don't know what you are doing you shouldn't do it hot and prob shouldn't do it at all, because that's when people hurt themselves.

My apology. I confused your username with this post. I'm new here and trying to get familiar with the site and got confused, especially since I was browsing at times on my phone which is more difficult to read.

Go for it, it's just 120V. It might bite, you but it probably wont kill you. You might damage your tools too, so be carefull with those someone might want them after your 'done'.

 

[JohnX14]

I own my own business and work by myself, if I hire someone and they don't feel safe working hot I have no issues turning off power,I won't force anyone to do it but would do it myself if needed. I am experienced enough that I haven't been shocked in years because I know my limits and have techniques that keep me from getting hit.

Same here actually.

 

[rockwithjason]

I own my own business and work by myself, if I hire someone and they don't feel safe working hot I have no issues turning off power,I won't force anyone to do it but would do it myself if needed. I am experienced enough that I haven't been shocked in years because I know my limits and have techniques that keep me from getting hit.

then you are one of the good guys. we all know there are plenty of bad guys.

 

[Falcon67]

I've done a few switches hot, mostly out of laziness more or less. I have worked in hot panels but really prefer not to. I have cut cardboard to cover exposed sections of the breaker buss and always wear gloves to reduce the chance of a goof. One of the things I like about my shop is that the feed has a breaker at the meter, so I can render the building panel dead before working in the panel. Even then, extra care is taken. Electricity is like a table or circular saw - pretty easy to work with and will bite the hell out of you if you lose your focus for an instant. I prefer to work a little scared and I still have - so far - 10 full length fingers.

 

[teal95]

Am I going to treat that patient in the car with traffic buzzing by at 70mph just feet from me? Hell No, I'm going to place an apparatus between me and the traffic, blocking off whatever lanes we deem necessary to protect ourselves.



So you're one of the guys blocking 3 lanes of traffic for the single vehicle that is completely off the pavement with a 20 foot shoulder?

 

[Gooch]

Am I going to treat that patient in the car with traffic buzzing by at 70mph just feet from me? Hell No, I'm going to place an apparatus between me and the traffic, blocking off whatever lanes we deem necessary to protect ourselves.



So you're one of the guys blocking 3 lanes of traffic for the single vehicle that is completely off the pavement with a 20 foot shoulder?

I don't blame him, people nowadays don't have the common sense to get over for emergency vehicles.

boohoo, your commute was delayed 5 minutes. maybe instead think of how grateful you are that you aren't the one needing their help.

 

[SLYDIT]

ive been a sparky for 20 years. people always ask me what its like to "work" with electricity....my answer is simple. i dont work with electricity...i turn the power off before i start screwing with wires.... if you HAVE to work live, use insulated and rated screw drivers and Gloves and WEAR SAFETY GLASSES. flash burns injure more people than shocks.

 

[GCncsuHD]

So you're one of the guys blocking 3 lanes of traffic for the single vehicle that is completely off the pavement with a 20 foot shoulder?

No, if the vehicle is completely off the pavement, there would likely be one lane blocked providing a perimeter around the scene, unless there is debris on the roadway that needs to be cleaned up in which case that will be blocked off as well. That is unless you want to be 1/2 mi up putting your spare on because you have a chunk of that cars bumper in your tire with texting soccer moms buzzing by within an inch of you while you work.