Pole barn with SIPs

[backintheday]

Happy Friday all,
Anyone ever used SIPS to insulate a pole barn? I'm thinking of building a PB with the conventional techniques, 6x6 posts on a concrete column or in a column 8' on center then running SIPs on the exterior of the posts resting on a sill plate that is secured to the slab. Thought this would be the cheapest way to build, not having to pour a foundation would save several thousand on a 52x60 building.

Thoughts?

 

[kd3pc]

SIPs are not generally an "inexpensive" construction method. And getting approval in those areas where you have AHJ, can be problematic as well as having to have a crane to set them. The longevity of the building structure could well depend on how robust the sill you sit them on is. 6x6 posts may require some backing to lag screw the panels to, unless you are precise or have panels designed to overlap the 6x6, most are based on 2x construction.

Certainly would work and would be deathly quiet when closed up. You would need to plan almost all electrical and such to be surface mounted, unless you design the chases in to the SIPs (read more money).

I have done two garages in SIPs, they turned out very nicely, even the roof were SIPs.

best of luck.

 

[backintheday]

Thanks for the reply,
The quote from the sips manufacture for a 40x60x16 was $15,500, I could stick build it with 2x6s, outside osb and 3" of spary foam for the same price, still need inside sheating and 3 more inchs of foam to equal the SIP estimate.

I do plan to keep the SIPs on the outside of the 6x6s, kinda like a timber frame set up. I don't think I could get the posts set exact enough to install SIPs between the 6x6s.

The SIPs are so lite a 6" slab should hold them just fine.

All good points, thanks much.

 

[Beemer533]

I don't see any advantage; SIP stands for "Structurally Insulated Panel". The reason to use it is to eliminate the need for separate structure and insulation, and to provide a complete thermal break (no studs to transfer cold).

I don't know what they cost, but I can't imagine they are very cheap...

 

[backintheday]

The only benefit that I see is the cost saving of not needing a complete foundation. If I do pour a foundation I will use ICFs so thats another added cost that would be eliminated. I agree with your point though.

 

[Streetbu]

There are two points to SIPS panels, you don't have to frame, that is your framing, and the insulation/lack of air penetration factor. Why still build a frame when they can do it?

 

[theoldwizard1]

Happy Friday all,
Anyone ever used SIPS to insulate a pole barn? I'm thinking of building a PB with the conventional techniques, 6x6 posts on a concrete column or in a column 8' on center then running SIPs on the exterior of the posts resting on a sill plate that is secured to the slab. Thought this would be the cheapest way to build, not having to pour a foundation would save several thousand on a 52x60 building.

Thoughts?

I can't say I have heard of doing it this way. Typically the SIP is secured to the sill plate and a 2x6 is used to join the panels. I guess you could use the 6x6 as the "splice", but you need to get the SIP panels built to cover the post, instead of just covering a 2x6. The floor need to be poured between the post bases ahead of time.

The big problem will be setting the posts and the SIPs at the same time, although, in theory, if the posts were set "perfectly" ahead of time, a crane should be able to drop a double wide SIP panel between 2 of them.

I think you need to get your prices on paper. Eliminating the post should save a lot and compensate for pouring a footing.

 

[theoldwizard1]

If I do pour a foundation I will use ICFs ...

WHY !

Pour the foundation and add 2" of foam board insulation on the side of the form.

 

[theoldwizard1]

There are two points to SIPS panels, you don't have to frame, that is your framing, and the insulation/lack of air penetration factor. Why still build a frame when they can do it?

+2 !



I'm a big fan of SIPs. If I ever build I will use SIPs !

 

[Randy in Maine]

I built my 40'x28' garage using SIPs on an 8" stemwall foundation 4' feet deep. Mine came in 4' wide x 12' panels and 2 of us lifted them up and secured them to the foundation. The whole garage went up in about 3 days an used a ton of construction adhesive, long screws, and spray foam (all included). Mine were the good ones though and are about R-38. Very tight construction with little waste and it went up fast. I had no permitting issues. I have a very nice heated concrete floor pre set up for a floor lift. I can heat the whole place for cheap. I used conduit wiring and pine paneling on the inside, log siding on the outside. My contractor did not think he could build one as tight on site for the same money if you include labor and waste. It it really strong also.

I bought a bunch of 2x6s, LVLs, and the roof stuff with trusses locally.

The panels are about 6 1/2" thick. I have the 2165 "ceiling panels" also. Here is where I got mine....they were great to work with.

http://www.murus.com/products/pur_sip

 

[Beemer533]

WHY !

Pour the foundation and add 2" of foam board insulation on the side of the form.

What's wrong with ICF? If you are going to insulate anyway, ICF is the way to go! Form and pour and you are done... Not to mention you are insulated on both sides.

You would still need to strip the forms if you do it the "standard" way..

 

[Beemer533]

The only benefit that I see is the cost saving of not needing a complete foundation. If I do pour a foundation I will use ICFs so thats another added cost that would be eliminated. I agree with your point though.

I guess the way I am looking at it, if you buy the SiPs, you are buying the structure as well as the insulation. What is the cost of the pole barn components?

Take that cost and subtract it from the cost of a foundation.

 

[theoldwizard1]

What's wrong with ICF?

$$$

If you are going to insulate anyway, ICF is the way to go! Form and pour and you are done... Not to mention you are insulated on both sides.

You would still need to strip the forms if you do it the "standard" way..

If they are cost effective, then that is the way to go.

 

[Voi]

I don't think I could get the posts set exact enough to install SIPs between the 6x6s.

Another thought is to do what this guy did. Set short poles and build a 2x structure around those and then stick build on top. Well he stick built, you'd SIP build on top.

Full thread here:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=196027

In your case you would stop at the 2x8 "cap" on top of the 2x10 skirts and then SIP build on top of that.

The quote from the sips manufacture for a 40x60x16 was $15,500...

Is this just for wall or roof panels too? How tall will you sidewalls be? Delivery included?

 

[backintheday]

I used ICFs for my house foundation, my wife and I had the 4' foundation wall up in less then 2 hours it was like working with big legos. I poured the wall myself, granted it's a simple square foundation. ICFs are the ticket if you're pouring your own foundation, no PIA forms and no concrete contractor to deal with.

 

[backintheday]

The SIP quote is for the 16' walls no roof, price also includes all materials, adhesive, screws etc plus house wrap and delivery. Can't beat that!!! I plan to do geothermal in floor heat, the panels insulate so well that I might be able to downsize my heat pump. I can do all the work without hiring a contractor, except for the roof, I might hire that out.

As I see it this would be the same building method as a timber frame house, put up the frame then wrap it with SIPs. The only different is instead of the panels sitting on floor trusses they would be on a 6" slab with a sill plate secured to the concrete.

Granted the "structural" part isn't being used except for wind load and in western WY we get A LOT of wind but if I can save $4-5000 on a foundation I just might run with it. Should be a strong building!!

Thanks for all the posts, keep any other ideas or questions coming.

 

[theoldwizard1]

As I see it this would be the same building method as a timber frame house, put up the frame then wrap it with SIPs. The only different is instead of the panels sitting on floor trusses they would be on a 6" slab with a sill plate secured to the concrete.

People doing timber frames want to SEE the frame and are willing to pay extra for it.

Attaching your SIP to a 2x6 sill plate is common.

With radiant floor heating and NOT having an insulated foundation, you will be loosing a LOT of heat out of your 200+' perimeter. I have seen pictures of garages without proper foundation insulation (down to the frost line) in MN where the snow is melted almost 2' from the outside edge of the slab !

 

[backintheday]

The slab will be insulated the same as a pole barn slab, I might have the base spray foamed instead of xps foam board. Need to do more research on that first.

I kinda like the idea of seeing the posts like the timber frame look, give it a little character instead of a big white wall.

I did a little math of the posts costs compared to a regular foundation, should save between $3000 - $4000.

 

[theoldwizard1]

The slab will be insulated the same as a pole barn slab, I might have the base spray foamed instead of xps foam board. Need to do more research on that first.

You are missing my point.

With radiant floor heating and NOT having an insulated foundation, you will be loosing a LOT of heat out of your 200+' perimeter.

You need foam board installed vertically to prevent heat from under the slab from escaping. The dirt under the slab and its insulation should be around 50°F, even in winter. Without the vertical insulation, down to the frost line, the temperature under the slab and insulation near the perimeter will be much colder in winter !

 

[davetulk]

You are missing my point.



You need foam board installed vertically to prevent heat from under the slab from escaping. The dirt under the slab and its insulation should be around 50°F, even in winter. Without the vertical insulation, down to the frost line, the temperature under the slab and insulation near the perimeter will be much colder in winter !

If he goes with the ICF foundation it gives him the vertical insulation, Over the pole barn foundation.

If you can afford I would pour the foundation, and then build the sip on top. If you like the look of the posts inside you can always add after for estectics. Just think the poured foundation and walls would lock the slab better and help with frost heaving/cracking. Also the poles and sip are a little redundant.

Originally from Canada I know the benefits of ICF as well the tightness the SIPS can give. Will cut the heating down big time.

 

[backintheday]

You are missing my point.



You need foam board installed vertically to prevent heat from under the slab from escaping. The dirt under the slab and its insulation should be around 50°F, even in winter. Without the vertical insulation, down to the frost line, the temperature under the slab and insulation near the perimeter will be much colder in winter !

I see what you're saying, I forgot about preventing the cold from coming under the slab. You're talking about running ridgid foam in a trench along the perimeter of the slab down 4', correct?

The frost goes down 8' some years in this area, some guys only go down 3' on their foundations because they say it's pointless to go any deeper since the frost can go way deeper then 4'. Not sure I agree with only going 3' but I'm no structural engineer....

I guess the jury is still out on this idea. I still haven't ruled it our yet but need to put some more thought in to it.

Thanks for all the comments.