Quality construction vs advanced design

[Jononon]

it probably doesn't matter at all, untill you get that one bolt that someone else has started to round off.

On the very small, seemingly very soft, fasteners on modern cars IME it's both less likely to round off a bolt and more likely to grab on a bolt some other idiot has already rounded off. On anything above about 10mm, I'm not convinced it makes any difference whatsoever.

 

[-B-]

Sentimentally I prefer old tools as they have a story to tell.
Functionally I prefer a tool that works well.

Good tools and products can be manufactured in Taiwan as they have some of the most sophisticated CNC capabilities in the word . The problem lies in with who contracts the work if you do not have reps ( QC, Engineers, designers, etc.) there you will get what ever they fell like producing for you at the cheapest price it cost them. China quality depends on how much you spend and buy vs how much you want to fight to get the right product. This is very evident in the cycling industry a lot of CF bikes are made in China in the Giant factory you see who are good at sourcing and who are not. Sourcing come down to time and effort spent to get the right product made.


BTW Giant is the world leader in CF technologies they produce for the cycling, aeronautics, automotive racing (FIA, SSCA, etc.) you get what you pay for and demand.

 

[jerk_chicken]

Are you on mtbr by any chance?

 

[-B-]

Are you on mtbr by any chance?

raced in the mid 80's to late 90's local pro level
raced road same period cat 2

 

[smcdonn]

My question is this:
What would you consider to be a "better" choice for sockets? Lets say a 30+ year old socket set from a major player of the level of SK Wayne or Indestro vs a 2009 made in taiwan set with a copy of the flank drive design?

I think most board members agree that for tools of the same vintage there is no comparison between quality "Made in USA" and "Made somewhere is Asia" . . . But can current design advantages ie flank drive make up for other shortcomings? Has asian metallurgy and manufacturing tolerances caught up to that of 1970's USA? 1950's?

I thought I would throw my .02 in. Overseas companies have the ability to produce high quality parts if that's what the customer wants, but most customers going to them are looking for one thing, CHEAP. Not in all cases but in a lot. The ultimate quality of a socket is derived from design, tolerance, strength, and finish. Current ways of gripping a fastener have advanced, but ultimately it comes down to tolerance and strength. If your out of tolerance your going to strip the bolt no matter what and if the socket isn't strong enough it's going to break. You have to purchase a socket from a company that cares about these things and it costs more money to care about these issues. 1970's USA sockets probably had some variation in finish and such, but I guarantee you they held a tight tolerance (because they threw away anything that wasn't within spec) and used a high quality steel. Overseas companies making cheap products probably let dies wear beyond what would normally be acceptable and probably use a steel that was in their price range. Modern manufacturing has advanced but quality costs money no matter how you cut it. Modern manufacturing processes can't replace caring about quality. So with that being said, I would take an old MUSA socket over a cheap advanced flank drive socket any day.

 

[oldtools]

My question is this:
What would you consider to be a "better" choice for sockets? Lets say a 30+ year old socket set from a major player of the level of SK Wayne or Indestro vs a 2009 made in taiwan set with a copy of the flank drive design?

I think most board members agree that for tools of the same vintage there is no comparison between quality "Made in USA" and "Made somewhere is Asia" . . . But can current design advantages ie flank drive make up for other shortcomings? Has asian metallurgy and manufacturing tolerances caught up to that of 1970's USA? 1950's?

Don't confuse value tool with lack of ability. Why does people compare HF tool to SO and then b*tch about HF tools. It is like comparing Chevy to Lexus and call Chevy a piece of sh*t (well, actaully they are). I wouldn't call Canadian stupid because they don't produce tools of SO quality. Have you ever look at the quality of Japanese products and compare them to the US. The forging/heat treatment/manufacturing processes are no rocket science. Material used for tool making is not that high tech either. They are no aerospace grade material.

Most of the steel factories are owned by Asian. Most of SO, Mac, Matco, Cornwell, Proto, etc are made in Asia (not Canada).

 

[krooser]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this but I believe that Snap On originated the "flank drive" technology way back in the 70's... it used to be a major part of their catalog advertising back then.

 

[Paladin]

I wouldn't call Canadian stupid because they don't produce tools of SO quality.

I think our Gray Tool fans would disagree...

 

[autoace]

Is the guy in the picture eschoendorff?

 

[Elroy]

I think you've misunderstood what you've been told

Elroy can assure you that he fully understands modern manufacturing methods. He has been a SME member in good standing for close to 30 years. You'll also typically find that "hot forging" and the other 100 year old methods you mention sure the hell aren't modern. They still work and in many applications are cost effective but they sure the hell aren't modern. They are also far from economical on high volume, critical strength parts.

Elroy thinks you need to cut him some slack.

It also sounds like you're dragging Elroy thru the the exothermic atmosphere annealing oven just a little with these statements:

Far from powdered metallurgy being the "manufacturing technique...currently used by ALL manufactures", the cold working process, whereby a solid rod is forced into plastic deformation over a lubricated die, as shown in the Hazet video, typifies current high quality production.

OK, maybe not ALL socket manufacturers use Powder Metallurgy but by and large, most of "high volume" builders do employ this method. You'll find very few manufacturers that still 100% hot forge sockets. And as far a "cold broaching" a socket is concerned, forget it. According to Alloy Artifacts, that method became obsolete in the late 1920's. I tend to believe what they say as they have the research and hard examples to back up their statements.

Now to be completely fair, both of us need to be very specific in terminology. Elroy assumes that the cold work you're referring to, has to deal with the 3 second clip in the video. Honestly, it happened so fast Elroy couldn't really say what they were doing. But I can assure you that hot forging and cold working sure the hell isn't "modern"

As a further example of "modern" , cut all the cost corners as possible. Elroy tenders this old link. One of his favorites he might add:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21527

And this picture in particular:

It's Elroy's humble opinion that BOTH of these sockets are manufactured by the Powder Metallurgy method. The most obvious method modification being the second die hit to form the detent pockets before sintering.

Sure, forging is still employed by some manufacturers but your going to have a tough time convincing Elroy that it's the most economical high volume method. Not in the modern world. Some third world country like Brazil? Maybe.

Want to talk about high volume?? Elroy bets that Danaher kicks the livin **** right out of Hazet on volume.

Your comments are welcome and fully encouraged

 

[WHT]

Elroy believes you're referring to a Forging process. This is still used on open and combination wrenches. I'm referring to SOCKETS.

Have you ever seen a socket that said Forged in China, USA, Taiwan or Germany?? Nope. you'll only see that on a "spanner"

How about Sintered in Sri Lanka

Not sure you are right about this. Modern cold-forging also creates quality sockets that do not need much machining. Between cold, warm and hot forging, I would bet most quality sockets are still forged.

Companies like Proto, Blackhawk, Britool, Koken and many others manufacture cold-forged sockets.

"Blackhawk and Proto® tools are cold-forged from high-quality steel to produce extremely strong tools that resist wear under heavy everyday use. Sockets are then machined for precision tolerance and feature a nickel chrome, high-luster finish for extra durability."

Britool: Cold forged deep metric hexagon sockets 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 .....

Koken has a huge range of sockets available in 6 point, 12 point, standard and deep, impact, torx, internal torx, allen key, universal, bit sockets, nut grip, spline, adaptors, etc. from 1/4" drive to 2.1/2" drive. Because of the 'cold forging' process, all Koken sockets are extremely accurate with sizing. Cold forging is a process where the steel used is softened and then forced into the socket die. Because there is no expansion and contraction of the steels molecular structure, the accuracy of the sockets measurements are exact.This is one of the few sources in the world for industrial size sockets up to 8 inches in diameter!

Other companies like Wright and Cornwell use hot forging.

 

[Jononon]

Elroy can assure you that he fully understands modern manufacturing methods.

The comment I was questioning was this -

Elroy would venture to say those are powdered slugs being cold worked and yet to be sintered.

In the sintering process, no mechanical working or machining is carried out on the green compact outside the die or mould. If you were to do to a weakly cohesive green compact what is shown in the Hazet video, it would crumble.

You'll also typically find that "hot forging" and the other 100 year old methods you mention sure the hell aren't modern. They still work and in many applications are cost effective but they sure the hell aren't modern. They are also far from economical on high volume, critical strength parts.

I don't believe I mentioned hot forging ?

Elroy thinks you need to cut him some slack.

Your insistence on writing about yourself in the first person tends to leave me feeling somewhat irritable. In that respect I am at fault, as it's a harmless habit, and I apologise.

OK, maybe not ALL socket manufacturers use Powder Metallurgy but by and large, most of "high volume" builders do employ this method.

I'm going to need a citation for this, given that a number of manufacturers demonstrably do not, and that Snap-on holds relatively recent patents regarding its own cold forging process.

You'll find very few manufacturers that still 100% hot forge sockets. And as far a "cold broaching" a socket is concerned, forget it. According to Alloy Artifacts, that method became obsolete in the late 1920's. I tend to believe what they say as they have the research and hard examples to back up their statements.

I have no reason to assume Alloy Artefacts is in any way inaccurate, but if the reader conflates differing processes then misconceptions may arise.

Now to be completely fair, both of us need to be very specific in terminology. Elroy assumes that the cold work you're referring to, has to deal with the 3 second clip in the video. Honestly, it happened so fast Elroy couldn't really say what they were doing.

Cold working refers to any process altering the shape or size of a metal by plastic deformation below the recrystallisation point.

But I can assure you that hot forging and cold working sure the hell isn't "modern"

I'm not sure I see your point. If we wish to make a hammer head, it might well be heated in an induction furnace, rather than over an aspirated coal fire, and forged with a hydraulic hammer, rather than beaten with a smiths' hammer, but the process has merely kept up to date without being in any way modern.

As a further example of "modern" , cut all the cost corners as possible. Elroy tenders this old link. One of his favorites he might add:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21527

And this picture in particular:

It's Elroy's humble opinion that BOTH of these sockets are manufactured by the Powder Metallurgy method. The most obvious method modification being the second die hit to form the detent pockets before sintering.

The pocket in the first picture was surely formed by a rotary tool I haven't asserted that no manufacturer uses powder metallurgy in any circumstance.

Sure, forging is still employed by some manufacturers but your going to have a tough time convincing Elroy that it's the most economical high volume method. Not in the modern world. Some third world country like Brazil? Maybe.

Hot forging is certainly more appropriate to small production runs. Cold forging requires a high initial investment, but can be highly mechanised.

Want to talk about high volume?? Elroy bets that Danaher kicks the livin **** right out of Hazet on volume.

I've no doubt that's true, but the statements to which I originally replied were "This manufacturing technique is currently used by ALL manufactures" and "Have you ever seen a socket that said Forged in China, USA, Taiwan or Germany?? Nope." I wonder if the 'GearWrench guys' would be interested in commenting on their production process.

---​

For clarity - in using the term 'cold forging', I am referring to forming a socket over a die from a blank, using pressure, below the recrystallisation point.

 

[eschoendorff]

Is the guy in the picture eschoendorff?

Nope, not me. That guy is too photogenic to be me. But he does echo my sentiments.

 

[krusty the clown]

here is the patent for the socket in question....................

http://www.google.com/patents?id=ySwKAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#PPA3,M1


i did not take the time to read all of it, BUT it appears that it is a cold forging operation.

i am no expert on this AND i have no reason to doubt elroy as far as SOME (not all) mfr's are using powdered metal technology but it look's like most of the patents for socket manufacturing AFTER the 1920's are for cold forming.

 

[Elroy]

For clarity - in using the term 'cold forging', I am referring to forming a socket over a die from a blank, using pressure, below the recrystallisation point.

It sounds to Elroy that you're using big words quoted from

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forging.

We can all see that you have a warm spot for Hazet sockets. Sure there are some fine manufacturers that cold work .

My only point is that the high volume manufacturers use powder. And powder is just fine as long as high quality feed stock is employed and the the proper heat treat is applied. Look, they make jet engine, turbine blades from PM. Then again use regrind Hyundai ball joints for feed stock and heat treat with out a controlled atmosphere and you end up with your typical junk socket.

It also sound like you're advocating Hazet's method as the only method. It's not.

Sure, Elroy stepped a little deep into it when he stated all socket builders use PM. You can stop bustin my *** about it.

Would you like to discuss the crystalline transformation iron makes during heating??

 

[Jononon]

It sounds to Elroy that you're using big words quoted from

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forging.

That's odd, I can't find the phrase I chose (which isn't a direct quote from anywhere, as far as I'm aware, unless it's survived intact in my brain since my Materials Science lectures) on the Wikipedia page. In fact, whoever wrote that used 'recrystallization temperature', whereas I was taught that 'recrystallisation point' is more apt.

We can all see that you have a warm spot for Hazet sockets. Sure there are some fine manufacturers that cold work .

Hazet only came up owing to their video having been linked. I am happy to assert that they're a high quality manufacturer, but I don't have a particular interest in their products.

My only point is that the high volume manufacturers use powder.

That may well be the case. That was not, however, your opening position, to which I originally replied.

And powder is just fine as long as high quality feed stock is employed and the the proper heat treat is applied. Look, they make jet engine, turbine blades from PM. Then again use regrind Hyundai ball joints for feed stock and heat treat with out a controlled atmosphere and you end up with your typical junk socket.

At no point did I suggest that it was not.

It also sound like you're advocating Hazet's method as the only method. It's not.

Again, I have not made that assertion.

Sure, Elroy stepped a little deep into it when he stated all socket builders use PM. You can stop bustin my *** about it.

Appealing to your own authority, backing that up with further incorrect assertions, and then seeking to discredit my post, without pointing out a single factual inaccuracy, by the implication that it consisted of Wikipedia copy pasta, yet you think you have grounds to feel wronged ?

Would you like to discuss the crystalline transformation iron makes during heating??

I'm not sure iron's transformation to a face-centred cubic structure above the lower transformation temperature is likely to be of much general interest.

 

[Elroy]

Oh good. We can play this game too.

Appealing to your own authority.....without pointing out a single factual inaccuracy.... yet you think you have grounds to feel wronged ?

Your first "inaccuracy" is stating that you have seen sockets that have a "forged" label. Elroy has NEVER seen a socket that said forged on it. We needs a citation.

Then you have the blue balls to make this statement.

Your insistence on writing about yourself in the first person tends to leave me feeling somewhat irritable.

Actually Elroy strives to utilize the third person point of perspective. You see, he finds entertainment in the derogatory comments that it solicits. That sir would be another "inaccuracy" in your stellar observation.

That was not, however, your opening position, to which I originally replied.

Actually this was the opening position taken:

One thing that has NOT changed over the years are the market pressures that push manufacturers to produce at lower prices and higher quality. With sockets in particular, you'll find that almost ALL sockets are currently produced from sintered powder in a press. But not always.

Pictures to illustrate pending.

And that is NOT what you responded to.

So we have now four inaccuracies in Jononon observations.

I'm not sure iron's transformation to a face-centred cubic structure above the lower transformation temperature is likely to be of much general interest.

Excellent response. It's Elroy's opinion your eutectic is depressed and your senses are in solution.

 

[Jononon]

Your first "inaccuracy" is stating that you have seen sockets that have a "forged" label. Elroy has NEVER seen a socket that said forged on it. We needs a citation.

The linked sockets are sold as 'cold forged' in the accompanying blurb, you are correct in saying that they are not stamped forged.

However, Bolster is correct, this has descended into an argument over nothing. I have no reason to doubt that some of the major manufacturers use powder metallurgy.

 

[autoace]

I'm still trying to figure out, exactly what you guys are arguing about

Elroy offered some good information and pics, I found it interesting. After observing myself(Cornwell etc...) I used the learned info. from Elroy and could only see the one comment of "all " when refering to the powdered method...............no big deal, whenever someone says all, there is always an exception, usually.

Jononon, added some helpful info. on my thread about the subject, and most of the info. was right.......there seemed to be a discrepancy over hot/cold forging and broaching etc. etc.

Bolster added some good points about the powdered metel, and the combinations that could be used in the alloy, not attainable with traditional methods............

As of yet, none of us know what way is stronger......and it probably varies with quality of materials etc....

So, both of you are helpful, and knowledgeable, and both are not always right(no one ever is anyway)

So I don't get the BEEF!

This whole thing would be like me and Krusty arguing over freeze frame data vs. regular data stream, and which is more important, or Snap-on's point value fuel trim specs, vs. SPX's % system..........just an example, it's pointless

Thank you both for the information on the subject.

 

[Jononon]

I don't get the BEEF!

**** language

 

[Elroy]

Actually Elroy..... finds entertainment in the derogatory comments that it solicits.

**** language

Thank you for validating our theory.

We're done here

 

[Stuey]

I just went through the whole thread at once, and it was quite amusing! I'd like to see Elroy and Jononon debate some more in a civilized manner - their discussion has been entertaining and educational!

 

[Monte]

Just found this thread *click* in an german tool forum.
The Hazet dude said that all Hazet sockets are cold forged up to 50mm.
The advantage of cold forging are the tighter tolerances (e.g. 0,02 mm) compared to hot forging and clean outlines (the surface roughness is also much lower )
Thats why the sockets doesnt have turning marks etc. , actually i never saw turning/milling/broaching marks on Hazet, Stahlwille, Gedore , Matador, Heyco etc. sockets...

 

[Jononon]

Thank you for validating our theory.

No derogation was intended or implied, the cartoon reflects a generalised theory of internet discussion.

 

[WHT]

Elroy can assure you that he fully understands modern manufacturing methods. He has been a SME member in good standing for close to 30 years. You'll also typically find that "hot forging" and the other 100 year old methods you mention sure the hell aren't modern. They still work and in many applications are cost effective but they sure the hell aren't modern. They are also far from economical on high volume, critical strength parts.

Elroy thinks you need to cut him some slack.

Your comments are welcome and fully encouraged

I called Proto, Wright, Cornwell, SK and other US tool manufacturers and asked how their sockets were made. They ALL said that they DID NOT use powdered metal to make sockets and THEY ALL said they had no knowledge of anyone in the US using this method.

Can Elroy please tell us who is using powdered metal to make sockets?

 

[UK Steve]

"This manufacturing technique is currently used by ALL manufactures" I'm sorry but that is totally wrong Ko-ken cold broach all sockets from a solid piece of steel up to and including 56mm (and that one takes 800 tons)all sizes above this are hot broached including the 8.7/8" and none are made from powder.
I have seen it happen.............

 

[UK Steve]

"This manufacturing technique is currently used by ALL manufactures" I'm sorry but that is totally wrong Ko-ken cold broach all sockets from a solid piece of steel up to and including 56mm (and that one takes 800 tons)all sizes above this are hot broached including the 8.7/8" and none are made from powder.
I have seen it happen.............

 

[Monte]

There is a small pictorial about their socket manufacturing on the koken site click

 

[UK Steve]

Thank you very much MONTE

 

[GearWrench Brand]

We use cold forging for our higher volume sockets (both in Asia and US). These are large, highly mechanized headers that require significant up front investment. The input is steel wire, no powder. Our competitors use the same or very similar equipment depending on the volume requirements.

To my knowledge, there is no powdered metal technique for sockets by major manufacturers.

Thanks,
Steve

 

[Garage_Mahal]

Why wire? Consistent properties? It's already round?

 

[kythri]

We use cold forging for our higher volume sockets (both in Asia and US). These are large, highly mechanized headers that require significant up front investment. The input is steel wire, no powder. Our competitors use the same or very similar equipment depending on the volume requirements.

To my knowledge, there is no powdered metal technique for sockets by major manufacturers.

Thanks,
Steve

By "we", are you referring to Danaher, in general?

Would your "no powered metal technique for sockets by major manufacturers" statement extend to the Craftsman line, as well?

Just curious. I was under the assumption that much/many/all of the newer Craftsman stuff was sintered - not that I've had an issue with it, but there's a certain cachet attached to product that is forged vs. sintered, so it'd be kinda cool to know...

 

[GearWrench Brand]

By "we", are you referring to Danaher, in general?

Would your "no powered metal technique for sockets by major manufacturers" statement extend to the Craftsman line, as well?

Just curious. I was under the assumption that much/many/all of the newer Craftsman stuff was sintered - not that I've had an issue with it, but there's a certain cachet attached to product that is forged vs. sintered, so it'd be kinda cool to know...

Yes, I am referring to Danaher in general. Craftsman sockets are mainly manufactured by this method (cold forging) as well. Some lower volume sockets may be hot forged, but there is no powdered metal technique that I am aware of.

Thanks,
Steve

 

[GearWrench Brand]

Why wire? Consistent properties? It's already round?

I'm not a manufacturing expert, but my guess is for constant feeding of the headers - it continuously pulls from a large spindle of steel wire.

The round shape probably helps too..

Steve

 

[Garage_Mahal]

Could ya please do us a favor and ask the manufacturing experts? Anything else than can share would be golden too. Thanks.

 

[Elroy]

To my knowledge, there is no powdered metal technique for sockets by major manufacturers.

Now Elroy...........How's your study of powdered metal sockets progressing?

Please reference United States Patent 3668951.

http://patft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph...50&s1=3668951.PN.&OS=PN/3668951&RS=PN/3668951

I called Proto, Wright, Cornwell, SK and other US tool manufacturers and asked how their sockets were made. They ALL said that they DID NOT use powdered metal to make sockets and THEY ALL said they had no knowledge of anyone in the US using this method.

Can Elroy please tell us who is using powdered metal to make sockets?

The above link should be self explanatory.

Any further questions from the WHT peanut gallery ?

 

[Art From De Leon]

"That's why you see so many gimmicky features."

Which Sears exploits to the fullest, along with the 'pros' who write the tool reviews in DIY oriented magazines like Popular Mechanics and almost any automotive magazine, but most notably those appealing to hot rodders, and off-road enthusiasts.

 

[WHT]

Please reference United States Patent 3668951.

http://patft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph...50&s1=3668951.PN.&OS=PN/3668951&RS=PN/3668951



The above link should be self explanatory.

Any further questions from the WHT peanut gallery ?

Of course there are patents for manufacturing powdered metal sockets, and no one said that there weren't. You will find patents for almost any idea. It doesn't mean the ideas are being used.

The questions asked you were based on the fact that you declared powdered metal manufacturing was the predominant method of manufacturing sockets today.

All of the U.S. manufacturers responded that they did not use this technology and did NOT know anyone who WAS using this method. GearWrench responded to this and said they were not using it either and also DID NOT KNOW of any major manufacturer who DID use this technology.

You even showed pictures of Snap-on sockets that you claimed were made with powdered metal. And, I won't repeat what Snap-on said when I sent them your post.

You were simply asked to names the companies who are making all these powdered metal sockets.

If people go back and read your posts they can find additional instances where you come out with some questionable statement or proclamation.

So, one more time, who exactly is making all of these powdered metal sockets?

Look, this is foolish. You are not equipped for a rational, technical discussion and I won't respond to you again. I only responded now because I saw you went back and tried to edit some of your posts on this thread. However, we are still waiting for a list of the manufacturers making all those powdered metal sockets.

 

[Autoguy]

I am sure the best tools made by USA tool companies belongs to the 70s and early 80 era as well as any other product made in this country. I like old tools but I feel those tools were made by engineers with the highest quality in mind regardless of the cost. When the economists started to make tools and goods the decline in quality appeared all over the world.

Flank drive will show its superiority ove other non flank drive in rusty and worn bolts and nuts.