44 Bikes Frame Shop

[fortyfour]

Sorry if I missed it or just don't know, but what is the black tube that looks like its run into pressurized fittings?

Thanks
T

Hey T: What you're seeing are purge lines for the inert gas argon. Here's another shot of the set up...



What this is referred to is: "Back Purging". I'm replacing the oxygen inside the tubes with argon. When welding, you need argon to keep the weld site clean and free of contamination. It's not necessary with chromoly, but it has some benefits (it is necessary with Stainless Alloys and Titanium). The backside of the weld will oxidize if left unprotected, and you'll see this as hard lumps or appear pop-corn like in steel. The inside of the seat tube, head tube and bottom bracket shell all need to be faced, chased and reamed to spec. Without back purging these areas in steel, it's a bit of a chore to ream these areas. It's tough on expensive tools, so they dull quickly. Purging those areas, you do not get oxidation and the backside of the welds are completely smooth / free of oxidation. So when it's time to finish the frame, those jobs of facing and chasing are that much more easy to do and your tools last a heck of lot longer. There is also the added benefit of improved weld integrity on the backside of the weld. Hope that helps!

Here's a link to an album of all my back purging / heat sync tooling for building frames.

 

[Terranova]

Totally get it. Thanks!
T

 

[Nursepeter1973]

I came across this thread by chance and I'm very glad I did. I'm just a hack welder.. only getting my first mig a year ago.. one day I'd love to learn tig...

I went out and bought the same Jackson welding helmet as yours... along with a 9, 10 & 11 shade gold Harris lens... will be an interesting comparison to my autodarkening helmet.

The saying that a pictures is worth a thousand words... might not be completely true (the pictures are excellent btw). Your explanations are clear and beautifully written, inspiring even to see someone with such talent willing to share it with us peons

 

[Dirk Thelen]

I must have missed it when reading through your thread. How do you clean the outside of the tubes?

Regards,
Dirk

 

[fortyfour]

I must have missed it when reading through your thread. How do you clean the outside of the tubes?

Regards,
Dirk

Hey Dirk - For clean up I use a variety of emory cloth grits. I also remove any mill scale both on the outside (if present) and on the inside of the tubes at the weld site.

For physical cleaning of the tubes when it's time to weld, I do a warm soap and water wash down, dry inside and out then before tacking, I use a final denatured alcohol wipe down with a lint free cloth. Some times if I have tacked the frame and it has sat for 1-2 days before being welded, I will use a stainless steel wire brush on all the tacked areas in case any spot rust has formed (which it will sometimes depending on the temperature just along the HAZ). I then will go ahead and do another denatured alcohol wipe down to remove any remaining dust/finger prints before I start all my welding.

Hope that helps!

Kris

 

[shanker]

You said you were taking pics of a new fat bike, but where's the fat bike?

I just got back into riding a bike at the age of 34 after not having a bike since I was 15...I got an Origin8 Crawler (with Nuvinci rear hub) and got my wife a Sun Crusher....we LOVE them..

 

[shanker]

Nevermind...I just had to go back a page....that's one good looking fat bike...

I'm thinking about putting a bluto front fork on mine since I mostly ride on streets/sidewalks with 25psi in my Vee 8's...

When we go out to the island for beach riding I lower the pressure....but my kids trailer bike is tough to pull on the sand so it's not as enjoyable to ride with him...he's ALMOST tall enough to help pedal.

 

[fortyfour]

Here's the latest version of my fat bike. I do not believe i actually posted this up here so here it is! The big changes for this one are 1x11, rear axle spacing is now 190mm, bottom bracket height has been lowered, wheelbase is stretched, wheels are lighter amongst a few other small details. Enjoy.

 

[picshooter]

Nice. I hope your order book is filling up!

 

[fergus]

So Kris,

Here in my neck of the woods, we have really tacky clay loam soil in the local area, which is where I normally ride. After a good rain, its pretty much like Skippy peanut butter. It keeps me off my mtb most of the winter which really bums me out.

Got any experience with a fat bike in those kind of conditions? I'm guessing it would still load up pretty good around the chain stays/bb but who knows.

I'm kinda thinking about one in the future...I could ride some of the beaches we go to which would be pretty cool. I could also ride snow up at Tahoe or Truckee. Riding peanut butter mud would be the icing on the cake!

 

[txusa03]

Hi Kristofer, I said it before and I will say it again, your workmanship is awesome.

I don't know if I am allowed to ask but what type of seat is on the red fat bike and is it comfortable? It is ok if you would like to take this into pm.

 

[fortyfour]

So Kris,

Here in my neck of the woods, we have really tacky clay loam soil in the local area, which is where I normally ride. After a good rain, its pretty much like Skippy peanut butter. It keeps me off my mtb most of the winter which really bums me out.

Got any experience with a fat bike in those kind of conditions? I'm guessing it would still load up pretty good around the chain stays/bb but who knows.

I'm kinda thinking about one in the future...I could ride some of the beaches we go to which would be pretty cool. I could also ride snow up at Tahoe or Truckee. Riding peanut butter mud would be the icing on the cake!

If your soil tends to get tacky/peanut buttery when wet, the bigger the tire will just mean the bigger mud magnet. I know depending on the trail, and the amount of rainfall, it can actually do more long term harm than good to ride when it's too muddy - I know I keep clear early in the spring till things have firmed up enough to ride. Fat bikes are not necessarily mud bikes actually - they're fun in the mud but they are really meant or rather ideal in soft sand, beach and snow conditions. I know when there is that transition period between winter and spring when things have thawed out, but are too soft, that is typically when I ride my road bike more but really ride the dirt road networks heavily. I'm still able to get out and I "kind of" feel like I'm on dirt single track or doubletrack. But I hear you. That stinks... Here's what that time looks like in my neck of the woods on a more particularly dry patch of road:



And a bit more mucky... Snow hadn't completely melted yet, but was no longer hard enough to ride. That can happen.

 

[fortyfour]

Hi Kristofer, I said it before and I will say it again, your workmanship is awesome.

I don't know if I am allowed to ask but what type of seat is on the red fat bike and is it comfortable? It is ok if you would like to take this into pm.

Sure no problem. The seat is a Selle San Marco Zoncolan. This particular version has carbon rails, but I'd most likely recommend the one with Titanium rails. The saddle is a bit more on the narrow side and took a few rides to break in the leather cover - I really like the fit/feel. But saddles are personal things as everyone is shaped differently. It seems that narrower and slimmer saddles have always fit me a bit better for what it is worth. I do know that many saddle manufacturers offer a system that some bike shops have where you basically can rent a saddle or two for a weekend and try them out. I know Selle Italia and WTB both have some sort of fit system and you can try before you buy. All of my other saddles are Selle Italia SLR's. Again, narrow, very low profile with not much padding but the shape fits me just right. If you can, look into a better bike shop that offers that system and see what you can arrange to try. Any saddle can be made to feel 100% better leveling it. So take a flat piece of wood or cardboard, placing it on the saddle from tip to tail, bike on level ground and then with a small level in place, LEVEL the saddle centered on the rails (kind of a base point for fit).

Once leveled you can adjust the fore/aft movement of the saddle to get your cockpit just right. If you find that you have the saddle all the way back or all the way forward, something else is up with the overall fit of the bike. Either too long or too short of a top tube, or too long or too short of a stem.

But give a bunch of saddles a go. 2 tips I always swear by is to first invest in a good saddle that is leather covered - not synthetic covering. Leather breaths much more easily and dissipates heat on long days/rides so it reduces friction and the chance for hot spots. Second is to invest in a saddle with Titanium rails. Every steel railed saddle I've ever own has bent. Every titanium saddle I have ever owned has not bent. The feel of Ti rails is also a bit more unique i'd say. Kind of a perfect balance of weight, strength and resiliency. Good saddles tend to tip the $100.00 mark but sometimes you can find them on sale or used with very little use. But once you do find one that fits, make note of it! I know once I found one, all my bikes got the same one:

 

[txusa03]

I totally agreed that saddle fit/feel is an individual preference thing, but you did not disappoint me. Your post are always full of useful information that I could try out.

I try to ride 12-15 miles a week mainly on the weekend. I wish I could find more time to ride and being in the muggy south I only have the early morning to ride as it is the most comfortable time for me as far as weather/heat/humidity is concerned.

Everytime after a 6-8 miles nonstop ride, my **** is the one thing that hurt so I decided to see what seat you have and what seat you offer to your customer.

Thank you for the reply and I will definitely try out your suggestions!

 

[cderalow]

I totally agreed that saddle fit/feel is an individual preference thing, but you did not disappoint me. Your post are always full of useful information that I could try out.

I try to ride 12-15 miles a week mainly on the weekend. I wish I could find more time to ride and being in the muggy south I only have the early morning to ride as it is the most comfortable time for me as far as weather/heat/humidity is concerned.

Everytime after a 6-8 miles nonstop ride, my **** is the one thing that hurt so I decided to see what seat you have and what seat you offer to your customer.

Thank you for the reply and I will definitely try out your suggestions!

saddles are extremely personal.

i will say this, even the stock saddle shouldn't hurt after 6-8 miles.

you might want to seek professional help fitting yourself properly to your bike, it's entirely possible your seat height is higher than it should be.

I run a similar saddle to 44. Selle Italia SLR Flow with titanium rails on my bikes.

 

[fortyfour]

saddles are extremely personal.

i will say this, even the stock saddle shouldn't hurt after 6-8 miles.

you might want to seek professional help fitting yourself properly to your bike, it's entirely possible your seat height is higher than it should be.

I run a similar saddle to 44. Selle Italia SLR Flow with titanium rails on my bikes.

Before you go to a shop or pay anyone to do a professional "fit", here's a quick fit check at home, here's the business:

0. Forget about knee over pedal spindle. Forget about saddle set back. Forget about Q-factor.

1. Measure your inseam. In stocking feet, put a book between your legs, spine facing up, making sure there is no gap between you and the spine of the book. Face a wall and make a small pencil mark being sure that the book is perpendicular to the wall. Measure this height. This is your inseam.

2. I use the Lemond Method for determining a starting point for your saddle height. Take your inseam and multiply it by .883 . This number is your saddle height from the center of the bottom bracket to the top of the saddle in a straight line with the seat tube. (This should get you close to your saddle height.)

3. Center the saddle on the rails and with bike on level ground, and level balanced on the saddle, level your saddle.

4. When seated on the saddle, your legs should be have a slight bend at 6 o'clock (closest to the ground). An interesting check for this would be to have cycling shoes on, place heels on pedals, and begin to back pedal. You should JUST be able to make them go round without your heel coming off the pedal. You should not have to rock your hips to make this happen.

With the "Lemond Method" saddle height, it will get you close, and you can make fine adjustments from there to get the saddle height just right. Leveling the saddle will make any saddle feel 100 times better, even the worst of saddles. But some saddles are just not comfortable or just plain do not fit. So it may take some time to get one that fits you well and you are happy.

Fine tuning your cockpit on a stock bike is a another set of parameters. You can adjust this with different length stems, moving the saddle fore/aft on the rails a pinch at a time, even moving your hoods/levers (road bike) up on your handlebars can help. Basically, you want your hoods coming off the bars to produce a flat platform for you to perch your palms. Some newer style handlebars are called "short and shallow reach". That means the bend out to the hoods isn't as far and the drops aren't as deep (I prefer these style bars). I've never liked that stretched out feel of a road bike. The bars have always felt too narrow to me. So I run a shorter stem with short and shallow bars along with a custom length top tube and seat tube taking saddle set back into account to get my fit. So I'm a little more upright in my stance on a road bike. This is custom, but that's what I do.

For the record, here's what mine looks like. The picture makes it look like there is a lot of saddle to bar drop but it's about 1.5" of drop (I need to take a side shot of this bike...):



Good luck!

 

[sbhockey]

I've been having issues with my knees while riding, and I have been blaming it on saddle height and angle. Don't think I'm getting a efficient pedal stroke. Going to try this this weekend and see if it helps.

 

[fortyfour]

I've been having issues with my knees while riding, and I have been blaming it on saddle height and angle. Don't think I'm getting a efficient pedal stroke. Going to try this this weekend and see if it helps.

Knees are a tough one, as pain can come from different spots on, in or around your knee. There is a lot going on there, and sometimes it actually can be other spots in the leg that radiate pain into the knee so it seems like it is coming from the knee. But starting with a correct saddle height which is level is important.

It could be something as simple as how you are pedaling. I notice A LOT of people have a pedal stroke where their knee's are bent outwards? It's a simple piston motion: Up/down - keep everything in line. But not having the right saddle height can do all kinds of weird things to your legs. Cleat position can help too. I start them centered on the ball of my feet and recommend slight tweaks for/aft once saddle height is dialed. I've noted sometimes if my cleats are too worn, I can begin to twist a bit on the down stroke and that adds pressure in odd spaces. Too much too soon or just over use (riding too much, not giving myself enough rest days) will begin to hurt the fronts of my knees.

But if you are having problems, the best thing to do is go about it very systematically. Make note of where you are, then concentrate on one factor (i.e. saddle height). Try that and ride for a week dialing it in. Still having problems, look at cleat position, or saddle fore/aft. But slowly make small adjustments/tweaks to only one spot until that is dialed. Move on to the next one when that is dialed, but the problem persists. When you try too much or too many variables at once, you can't isolate things. Good luck!

 

[dittle fart around]

I've been having issues with my knees while riding, and I have been blaming it on saddle height and angle. Don't think I'm getting a efficient pedal stroke. Going to try this this weekend and see if it helps.

My bones seem to be popping out as I ride my bike. Went to the doctors and he said I have a torn meniscus. "Meniscus tears refer to a tear in the shock-absorbing cartilage (meniscus) of the knee." Only hurts when the bones are moving around. I can pop them back into place but the fix is Arthroscopic knee surgery.

 

[sbhockey]

Thanks Kris. It's a lot like adjusting the suspension on my motorcycle. Turn a couple clicks, ride a few laps, adjust as needed. Knees are in line, same as when I'm running. I make a concession effort to make sure of that. It currently feels like my pedal stroke is to short, like the seat height is to low, or possibly to far back, forcing a shortened stroke to adjust for the offset.

At worst there are some good bike shops here in Chatt that will do fittings. Another thought is my crank arms could be short. Will do some dialing over the next few weeks.

 

[fortyfour]

Thanks Kris. It's a lot like adjusting the suspension on my motorcycle. Turn a couple clicks, ride a few laps, adjust as needed. Knees are in line, same as when I'm running. I make a concession effort to make sure of that. It currently feels like my pedal stroke is to short, like the seat height is to low, or possibly to far back, forcing a shortened stroke to adjust for the offset.

At worst there are some good bike shops here in Chatt that will do fittings. Another thought is my crank arms could be short. Will do some dialing over the next few weeks.

The heel trick I spoke of will give you a really good quick glance at whether your saddle height is not high enough.

For those that missed it, simply sit on your bike with your cycling shoes on (or if you use flats, just your shoes), place your heels on the pedals and back pedal. You should JUST be able to make the cranks go round without taking your heels off the pedals and not do any exaggerated motions to make that happen. Another quick check is inseam x .883 gets you close to where you should be from center of the bottom bracket to top of a level saddle.

The reason why I am mentioning these quick checks is that "Bicycle Fit" is a very "IN" thing right now... Bike shops are starting to charge lots of $$ to do them. As soon as plumb bobs or lasers are involved... that's PURE Snake Oil (you heard it here first!). Pack your stuff and get out of there. It simply takes a very experienced shop tech to put you on a bike, look at how you are positioned, and through trial and error, help you adjust your bike so things are comfortable with subtle tweaks. Fit is about visualizing what works and what does not. Good bikes shops and experienced techs/wrenches have done this all along. I would only recommend going to a shop if you try a few of these things first, but still cannot get things "just so". That way if you do spend some money, you have a baseline and you've given some things a try first.

Little bike stoke from yesterday...

 

[Heifer Boy]

The reason why I am mentioning these quick checks is that "Bicycle Fit" is a very "IN" thing right now... Bike shops are starting to charge lots of $$ to do them. As soon as plumb bobs or lasers are involved... that's PURE Snake Oil (you heard it here first!). Pack your stuff and get out of there. It simply takes a very experienced shop tech to put you on a bike, look at how you are positioned, and through trial and error, help you adjust your bike so things are comfortable with subtle tweaks. Fit is about visualizing what works and what does not. Good bikes shops and experienced techs/wrenches have done this all along. I would only recommend going to a shop if you try a few of these things first, but still cannot get things "just so". That way if you do spend some money, you have a baseline and you've given some things a try first.

Amen!!

I have a bike shop friend who recently practiced a newly learned SBCU bike fit process on me and couldn't understand why after a couple of hours she hadn't had to change anything on my bike setup. I told her that after 25 years of racing MTB's, you soon learn what's right and what's not. As you say, trial and error and seeing what's 'just right'. And me, and other shop monkeys, just tend to know because we actually ride our bikes!! A lot!!

Most riders are too afraid to change anything from how the bike was when they bought it and are amazed at the benefits a few minor changes can make.

Feel free to change things. You can always change it back...

HB

 

[fortyfour]

Amen!!

I have a bike shop friend who recently practiced a newly learned SBCU bike fit process on me and couldn't understand why after a couple of hours she hadn't had to change anything on my bike setup. I told her that after 25 years of racing MTB's, you soon learn what's right and what's not. As you say, trial and error and seeing what's 'just right'. And me, and other shop monkeys, just tend to know because we actually ride our bikes!! A lot!!

Most riders are too afraid to change anything from how the bike was when they bought it and are amazed at the benefits a few minor changes can make.

Feel free to change things. You can always change it back...

HB

EXACTLY.

Sometimes you can do it on your own, but if you just can't get it right and still are having problems after attempting a few small tweaks, you can take that info to a good bike shop, speak with the shop tech's, tell them what you've done and what is the problem and they can do something you cannot: Step back and SEE how you are positioned on the bike. There may be something you just are not able to see or visualize that they can see. If you do this though, make sure you bring your shoes and riding gear because that is how you will get the best solution possible. The other thing is shops (good shops) will have a selection of stems on hand too - something as simple as this can really help you dial in your reach so you do not have to purchase different stems one at a time and find out they are too long/short.

If you do go changing things, simply take measurements and make notes/marks with pencil or tape where you started from. That way you have a baseline.

 

[Heifer Boy]

True Story.

I'm currently training for a 100km race in December and my old seat (Fizik Gobi) started squeaking badly a few weeks back and I couldn't fix it so bought a new one (WTB Pure). I fitted it to my bike 3 rides ago in the same position as the old.

First time out was for about 2.5 hours on hilly singletrack and loved it. Second ride was 2 days later for 3.5 hours on a lot of fireroad and I felt really flat. Couldn't get any leg speed happening and my quads were screaming the whole way. Ride buddy was cruising way in front.

Third ride out and 2 days later (today) and my legs were screaming again from right from the start and I knew something was wrong. So I slid around on the saddle a bit and realised I was sitting back a bit from the BB. So I slid the seat forward about 5mm, raised the post about 5mm to compensate for leg length change and raised the nose a couple of degrees to take the weight off my arms.

Instantly came alive and completed a very high paced 5 hour ride. It was amazing how just very minor changes had such a massive impact on my power, leg speed and endurance. The legs still feel pretty good as I write this.

HB

PS - The Pure is a really comfy saddle too...

 

[Dr.AK]

I have just re-read the whole thread for the nth time and it was as enjoyable as ever.

Truly an inspiring and motivational read!

I don't have much to do with bikes myself, yet this thread always makes me think that I should get one and ride... it certainly would do me good, heh. Maybe I'll get one someday to ride the 7km to my shop, since that would be cheaper than constantly using the car haha.

 

[Nightshift]

Like another mentioned, it is a "TIG Finger". They're a bit slippery in feel at first, but you adjust quickly. Wouldn't weld now without one personally. Love mine.

I gotta get me one of those TIG Fingers!

Kris, I have a question on gloves. How'd you settle on the Tillman 24D? Have you tried Millers TIG glove? This one ...

www.millerwelds.com/products/welding_protection/hand_body/welding_gloves/performance/tig/

Bill

 

[fortyfour]

I gotta get me one of those TIG Fingers!

Kris, I have a question on gloves. How'd you settle on the Tillman 24D? Have you tried Millers TIG glove? This one ...

www.millerwelds.com/products/welding_protection/hand_body/welding_gloves/performance/tig/

Bill

Hey Bill - Definitely get yourself a TIG Finger. Love mine. Also creates a nice platform to perch from in tough to weld spots I've found as well.

RE: Tillman 24D's. I've used these for years actually. The cut and tailoring fit my hands well. I have relatively long fingers and wide palms and sometimes with some gloves the fingers are too short if you move up, or the fingers get too long. These seem to have a good balance where my hand goes in snug but I don't feel like I lose any dexterity. Which is important for what I am doing - the material is thin enough so I don't feel too hindered. They're very soft as well. I also like the short gauntlet too. Long gauntlet's (IMO) kind of get in the way - I like as little as possible for maximum mobility. These gloves are also unlined, again, I feel this really gives me the most dexterity and feel. Hope that helps!

 

[Nightshift]

Thanks Kris. I will order a TIG finger right away. Seems like a great add.

I've been into all my local welding/gas supply shops in town and while they carry both Tillman and Miller gloves, none of them stock the Tillman 24D (or C) or the Miller TIG glove. Everything they seem to carry in stock are heavier (and longer) MIG gloves and really heavy stick gloves. They did have some light unlined TIG gloves but they were long cuffs and they didn't fit me well. So I guess I'll have to order them online and take a chance I can guess the right size for me. Cheers, Bill

 

[Bob Heine]

So I guess I'll have to order them online and take a chance I can guess the right size for me. Cheers, Bill

[FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica] I find the 24D to be real close to working bare-handed. [/FONT]Tillman also has a helpful size selection chart. Cyberweld has the 24Ds for $12.15 but I think there are places selling them for even less. Here's the Cyberweld page:

http://store.cyberweld.com/kidtigglov.html

Tillman Welding Gloves - Kidskin TIG Glove w/2 Inch Cuff 24D

Tillman's kidskin TIG welding gloves have set the industry standard for over 30 years. Special tannage provides the best overall combination of strength and softness.

Features Premium Top grain pearl Kidskin leather enhances feel and durability.
Unlined to maximize feel and dexterity.
2” cuff for added protection.
Straight thumb for best gun grip.
[/FONT][FONT=arial, helvetica]Lock stitched with Kevlar® thread for added strength.

[/FONT]

 

[Nightshift]

Thanks Bob. I'm gonna order some today. Cheers, Bill

 

[fortyfour]

For the record, I source mine online as well. Pretty much none of the welding stores in my area stock what it is I am looking for so I'm forced to purchase things online.

One from today's effort to keep us all warm at night tonight... I don't know about you fellas, but it's a nasty night in NH tonight. Freezing rain, rain, sleet, snow... bone cold. A proper New England Sampler.

 

[fortyfour]

Some recent work headed out the door:



Kept this one Raw for Y'all

 

[Jimbo..]

Kristofer, what bar tape is on that last bike?

 

[Zx360]

Been following you on Instagram, really love everything you make. Amazing work and quality.

 

[wasfast]

Kristofer, what bar tape is on that last bike?

Fizik. Not sure which specific version. Doesn't appear to be the thicker stuff.

 

[Jimbo..]

Fizik. Not sure which specific version. Doesn't appear to be the thicker stuff.

You meant "fi'zi:k", right? The reason I ask is that I have a set of the 2mm super light tape sitting on my bench waiting for install, never used it before, and if that is what Kristofer used, then I think I made a good choice!

 

[wasfast]

Yes, they use the phonetic punctuation for "looks". I've used their tape for years, just put a new white superlight grip wrap on my road bike. The regular Microtex lasts for years.. The Dual would be good for cross, gravel bike, off road.

 

[kmacafee]

Kristofer
I enjoyed the discussion about bike fit and agree that shops charging $100 or more for a "fit" is ridiculous. I have been in and out of the industry for 30 years and have seen a lot of fit fads come and go. A few years back, I met a guy who had been working in shops for probably 50 years who told me about the "armpit" method.

Place the saddle under your armpit and stretch your arm down the seatpost. Your middle finger should end at the center of the crank arm. This gets you about 95% there and only minor tweaks are necessary to get that measurement dead on.

I was skeptical until my daughter was in medical school studying physiology and she advised that there is a direct correlation of the distance between your armpit and the end of your middle finger and one's inseam measurement. I've used it many times and it works.

Love your shop and the bikes. Thanks for sharing.

 

[fortyfour]

Kristofer, what bar tape is on that last bike?

This last bike used Fizik bar tape: Superlight Soft Touch.

 

[Tman]

Kristofer
I enjoyed the discussion about bike fit and agree that shops charging $100 or more for a "fit" is ridiculous. I have been in and out of the industry for 30 years and have seen a lot of fit fads come and go. A few years back, I met a guy who had been working in shops for probably 50 years who told me about the "armpit" method.

Place the saddle under your armpit and stretch your arm down the seatpost. Your middle finger should end at the center of the crank arm. This gets you about 95% there and only minor tweaks are necessary to get that measurement dead on.

I was skeptical until my daughter was in medical school studying physiology and she advised that there is a direct correlation of the distance between your armpit and the end of your middle finger and one's inseam measurement. I've used it many times and it works.

Love your shop and the bikes. Thanks for sharing.

After 30+ yeas riding many of these simple ideas work the best. I was looking at my bikes in the shop the other night and chuckled when they all (5) looked to have almost identical setups. I pulled out the tape and even tho they were all eyeballed by me they were within millimeters of each other.