Sub Panel to Main Panel Swap ???'s

[nine4gmc]

I have a 30x30 shop that was wired when I moved in for lights and a couple circuits. I quickly found I needed more circuits but there are not enough spaces in the sub panel for more breakers. It was recommended to me that I swap out that small sub panel for a larger one. It was also suggested that if my inside panel were up to spec and I had a meter pan installed outside, I could have power run to the building at no charge from the power company. With that news, I "assumed" I could put in this 200a main panel and wire the outlets to spec for now, use the 60a feed from the house. Then later if/when I need more than 60a, have the meter panel installed and call for direct service. Is this feasible and is there anything I need to do other than swap this out, wire for wire?

OLD PANEL:

New Panel:

 

[sublimate]

It was also suggested that if my inside panel were up to spec and I had a meter pan installed outside, I could have power run to the building at no charge from the power company. With that news, I "assumed"...

I would check with your PoCo before assuming that. In my experience they do nothing for free.

Are you talking about a 2nd meter for separate service to your garage?

 

[nine4gmc]

Yes, second meter. A member in my area said that if the wiring is up to spec and there is a meter panel installed, they will run power from the underground box in my yard to my building and install a second meter.

I'm pretty sure they will do that, what I assumed is that I can use this 200a panel in the mean time as long as I don't go over 60a actual useage.

 

[Evan(CA)]

Are you asking if you can use that 200a panel as a 60a sub? It's rated at 200a but you can always feed it with less. Just size the wire and breakers accordingly.

 

[nine4gmc]

Thanks Evan, that's basically what I am asking. I have a 60a feed currently but want to eventually have a separate meter installed and want to use this 200a until then. My thoughts are I can easily just wire in a meter panel later with a built in main breaker, then have the power company hook me up to service.

 

[nine4gmc]

Ok I got it swapped, I have one more question though. On the sub panel, the 60 amp feeder wire had a ground wire and white neutral wire attached to the same neutral buss bar in the subpanel. The new panel has a separate ground buss bar and neutral bars, should I make a jumper and connect them in the new panel?

 

[CNGsaves]

Nine . . . Hope the guru sparky's jump in here quick but sounds like you need to do some more reading/get advice so it's all clear.

First . . this is DETACHED Garage . . . right ???

If detached, that requires 4 wire feed from the main panel and separate Neutral & Ground bar at subpanel (ie unbonded). Also, detached garage requires 2 ground rods with continuous wire between the rods connected to subpanel.

My PoCo said they'd add aerial for free to my detached garage, but buried I'd have to install 3" conduit at proper depth from garage to their source . . AND . . they'd add a fee for converting from aerial to buried. Since sounds like your main service is buried already, so your PoCo may indeed provide "free" buried over to your garage (at the forever continuing charge of "customer charge" on the additional meter).

However, curious if you considered upgrading the house instead to 200A and then bury yourself Al 2-2-2-4 MHF for 90A at your detached garage?? This would eliminate the forever customer charge for that 2nd meter on garage. You could install yourself a sub-meter at garage to keep track of what the garage used in electricity if you wanted.

/ {.02 ideas or consideration}

 

[nine4gmc]

This is a 30x30 UNATTACHED garage about 40' from the house, the power company's main power box is closer to my garage than the house. Currently, there is a main feed buried from the box to the house, then another 60a 4 wire copper feed from the house to the shop.

I was debating 100a feed from the house and upgrading the buried wire, breakers etc but I think it would be cheaper and less trouble to just upgrade to a 100a meter and be done.

 

[gungatim]

Edit (12/19/14): please read further in this thread for clarification from the pro's, not everything I posted below is completely accurate (but leaving as posted for reference).

I am sure someone in the electric trade will chime in to correct but I believe:

you cannont use that box with the current wiring in place, against code and the main (breaker) will be incorrect.

You need a seperate ground rod and ground wire to that box because the bldg. is detached.

ground and white are the same, just different paths to ground, which is why they are on the same bar in the box. on the new box, the instructions should explain where the seperated ones are, may even be a bonding strip depending on if installed with seperate ground rod. consult instructions that came with box.

finally, around myway, if they run a seperate meter to that building, they wil charge to upgrade the underground feed to the appropriate 200 amp service, there will be a minimum monthly charge on a seperate bill, and the killowat hour $ rate will be much higher than your home as it is classified differently (like property tax on a 2nd home that is not a main residence)

Again, I am not an electrician, this was my experience when I wired my detached bldg. going through electric permit process in my state. If I stated anything glaringly wrong or dangerous, let me know and i will edit my post.

Hope this helps.

 

[CNGsaves]

If your 60A copper feed from house to garage is all up to code, why couldn't you just live with that?? No harm with your oversized 200A subpanel in garage as the house breaker and wire between would be limiting garage to 60A. I doubt a single person could use enough equipment to "need" more than 60A, but tell us what you plan on running in garage.

You'd still need to add the ground rods at garage if don't have any now.

Sparky's will likely chime in tomorrow and add comments to clarify.

 

[RickP]

Also, you'll need a main breaker in that subpanel if you end up with more than 6 circuits (at least while it's being fed from the house).

 

[gungatim]

If your 60A copper feed from house to garage is all up to code, why couldn't you just live with that?? No harm with your oversized 200A subpanel in garage as the house breaker and wire between would be limiting garage to 60A. I doubt a single person could use enough equipment to "need" more than 60A, but tell us what you plan on running in garage.

You'd still need to add the ground rods at garage if don't have any now.

Sparky's will likely chime in tomorrow and add comments to clarify.

I agree, I put a 60 amp panel in my 30x40 shop and everyone told me i'd be sorry and should put in 100 or 200 service. after almost 10 years, I have never blown the main breaker. I have lights and radio on one circuit, all outlets are double with 2 seperate 20 amp circuits (4 receptacles labeled A and B at each location), a fridge, 220 outlets for air compressor, welder, and lift.

but if you do the math, it's awfully hard to pull more than 60 amps by yourself. lights on, fridge running, radio on, and welding with compressor running is about the most I could do with only 2 arms. That maybe hits 50 amps total...

 

[Beemer533]

Ok I got it swapped, I have one more question though. On the sub panel, the 60 amp feeder wire had a ground wire and white neutral wire attached to the same neutral buss bar in the subpanel. The new panel has a separate ground buss bar and neutral bars, should I make a jumper and connect them in the new panel?

Do not tie ground and neutral together in the sub panel! This should only be done at your main panel.

IIRC, with the older 3 wire (no longer allowed) you would bond neutral and ground together and install a ground rod.

This post edited by the NSA

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I see none of the other sparkies jumped on this one. Ive been busy...

If the existing feed is 4-wire, then the existing panel was done wrong. The neutral bar shouldve been insulated/isolated from the ground bar and enclosure...

If the feeder was 3-wire, the existing panel would have been fine as is but then u would have needed to change the feeder when u put in the panel to comply with current code.

Is there any parallel metallic(water or gas line) pathways between the house and garage?

Anyhow, moving forward, DONT bond the neutral bar as others have said.

And as Rick P mentioned, u need a main breaker if u go over 6 handles. Since its a main lug panel, u could get a 60a or larger breaker and backfeed it, making it the main disconnect for the panel. If u do this dont forget the proper retention/hold down kit...

By code only one grounding rod/electrode is needed unless u cant prove 25ohms or less of resistance. Then 2 is required...the rod shouldve already been there....

OP- The cable feeding your panel looks to either be black cordage or black NM-b/Romex. If thats the case, it is wrong. NM-B is NOT permitted to be used underground...

I am sure someone in the electric trade will chime in to correct but I believe:

you cannont use that box with the current wiring in place, against code and the main will be incorrect.

You need a seperate ground rod and ground wire to that box because the bldg. is detached.

ground and white are the same, just different paths to ground, which is why they are on the same bar in the box. on the new box, the instructions should explain where the seperated ones are, may even be a bonding strip depending on if installed with seperate ground rod. consult instructions that came with box.

finally, around myway, if they run a seperate meter to that building, they wil charge to upgrade the underground feed to the appropriate 200 amp service, there will be a minimum monthly charge on a seperate bill, and the killowat hour $ rate will be much higher than your home as it is classified differently (like property tax on a 2nd home that is not a main residence)

Again, I am not an electrician, this was my experience when I wired my detached bldg. going through electric permit process in my state. If I stated anything glaringly wrong or dangerous, let me know and i will edit my post.

Hope this helps.

Why cant he use the panel or wire? He said he has a 4-wire feeder!

Also, "ground and white" are NOT the same. The Neutral/grounded conductor or "white" as u called it is NOT a path to ground! This is bad advice. Yes EGCs and neutral ARE bonded at the main service panel BUT theyre NOT the same. They have 2 different purposes. And Ground rods arent for grounding equipment either just in case you were wondering...

 

[nine4gmc]

Ok, I plan to add the two ground rods and now I understand that if I go over 6 handles, I need a main breaker. So a double breaker with connecting rod would count as one circuit?

I don't necessarily need a lot more amps, I need more outlets. The old sub panel had two 20a 220v circuits that had 1 220v outlet and 4 110v outlets grouped together on each circuit. Then there was a 20a circuit that fed 4 110v outlets grouped together by itself and another 20a circuit that fed (6) 8' dual light fluros over head and two more 110v outlets on the same switched feed. Once I put a center divider wall up, all the electrical outlets were on one side of the building and I had to run extension cords everywhere to plug **** in.

The total things I need power for will be:
Refrigerator
TV, DVD, Receiver, Computer
(8) 8' dual light T12 fluorescents, (4) 4' dual light T8's, (1) 4' single light T8, (1) 4' dual light T12, couple desk/machine lamps.
(2) Fans

Then I would need a 50a outlet for my welder and another outlet for my plasma, I need several 110v and 220v down the outer machine wall for the lathe, milling machine, drill press, etc.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

What about what i said about the feeder wire?

Use solid #6 cu for the rods. And it must be continous.

Yes a double pole/handle tied breaker counts as one handle!

Is there a metal water or gas line going to the garage?

 

[nine4gmc]

Sorry, the cable feeder is marked 6/3 with GROUND TYPE N/M and comes from a juntion box at the lower wall, IDK if that is what is outside.

Gotcha, #6 cu rods with single wire ground. Any certain distance from each other/box?

I could probably get by with 6 circuits in that case but may go over 1-2, we'll have to see.

There is a pvc water line on the same wall as the electrical junction box, a couple feet away. No metal water or gas to the garage.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

I am sure someone in the electric trade will chime in to correct but I believe:

you cannont use that box with the current wiring in place, against code and the main will be incorrect.

Not true. Quite OK to use the panel he has. Only issue is that he needs a main disconnect. Best thing is to buy a 200 amp main breaker conversion kit to make the panel a main breaker panel instead of the main lug panel it is now. Home Depot and Lowes carry the main breaker conversion kits for your panel. Other option would be to install a 60 to 100 amp breaker and back feed thru it, using a main breaker hold down kit (also at the box stores)

You need a seperate ground rod and ground wire to that box because the bldg. is detached.

This is true. Actually you need two rods because you won't have the equipment to prove the resistance of the one rod to ground being less than a code specified amount, just install two rods and save the problems.

ground and white are the same, just different paths to ground, which is why they are on the same bar in the box. on the new box, the instructions should explain where the seperated ones are, may even be a bonding strip depending on if installed with seperate ground rod. consult instructions that came with box.

On the OP's panel if he has a long green screw or bonding strap that is made to bond the insulated neutral bar to the metal of the panel, he SHOULD NOT use it. The ground and neutral need to stay isolated.

finally, around myway, if they run a seperate meter to that building, they wil charge to upgrade the underground feed to the appropriate 200 amp service, there will be a minimum monthly charge on a seperate bill, and the killowat hour $ rate will be much higher than your home as it is classified differently (like property tax on a 2nd home that is not a main residence)

Totally depends on the power company involved. Some charge commercial rate on a non-residential building even if on a residential lot, some charge a residential rate on all meters on residential property (which is what my POCO does), and some will not even install a second meter on a residential property. Depending on location, some may charge agricultural rates on outbuildings (cheaper)

Again, I am not an electrician, this was my experience when I wired my detached bldg. going through electric permit process in my state. If I stated anything glaringly wrong or dangerous, let me know and i will edit my post.

Hope this helps.

Edits in red. Charles

 

[nine4gmc]

A question about circuits now. The original sub panel had two 20a 220v circuits that fed a 220v outlet each, and two 110v outlets pigtailed from them. So it went double 20a breaker>3 wires in conduit>220v outlet>two 110v outlets. It passed inspection but is that allowable or do I need separate circuits for 110v and 220v?

 

[acer66]

I hope I am allowed to add a question since I am in a similar situation.
I am going to use a 200A panel with a 100A main breaker conversion kit,
I just bought another 100A panel for the 100A breaker and the other included breaker since that was cheaper.
My question is, what to do with the 200A breaker, leave in there disconnected?
I called a few electrical supply stores and they never heard about a filler plate for the bigger 200A breaker opening.
Or are there any other legal options out there?

Thank you

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Sorry, the cable feeder is marked 6/3 with GROUND TYPE N/M and comes from a juntion box at the lower wall, IDK if that is what is outside.

Gotcha, #6 cu rods with single wire ground. Any certain distance from each other/box?

I could probably get by with 6 circuits in that case but may go over 1-2, we'll have to see.

There is a pvc water line on the same wall as the electrical junction box, a couple feet away. No metal water or gas to the garage.

U should check to make sure that the NM isnt going underground.

Yes solid #6 cu going to 2 rods spaced 6' apart, the first rod can be under the panel.

A question about circuits now. The original sub panel had two 20a 220v circuits that fed a 220v outlet each, and two 110v outlets pigtailed from them. So it went double 20a breaker>3 wires in conduit>220v outlet>two 110v outlets. It passed inspection but is that allowable or do I need separate circuits for 110v and 220v?

Some AHJ would disallow the daisy chaining of 240v outlets. Not sure about your area...

I hope I am allowed to add a question since I am in a similar situation.
I am going to use a 200A panel with a 100A main breaker conversion kit,
I just bought another 100A panel for the 100A breaker and the other included breaker since that was cheaper.
My question is, what to do with the 200A breaker, leave in there disconnected?
I called a few electrical supply stores and they never heard about a filler plate for the bigger 200A breaker opening.
Or are there any other legal options out there?

Thank you

To be respectful to the OP u should probay start yournown thread!

But anywho, if i understood u correctly, u took a 200a panel and converted it to 100a. Is this a main service panel or a subpanel? Are u not gonna use a breaker in the 200a panel hence the reason for asking about leaving it in the panel disconnected?

 

[acer66]

To be respectful to the OP u should probay start yournown thread!

But anywho, if i understood u correctly, u took a 200a panel and converted it to 100a. Is this a main service panel or a subpanel? Are u not gonna use a breaker in the 200a panel hence the reason for asking about leaving it in the panel disconnected?

Okay, if the op is not happy about my actions on his thread I will delete my wrong doings.

Yes it is a 200a into a 100a panel conversion.

It is a main service panel.

Yes, the spot of the original 200a breaker will not be used unless it is okay just to leave the original 200a breaker disconnect in there.

I would prefer a filler plate but they seem not to be to easy to find one.

I am also wondering what the op does regarding that if he has the same problem.

Thank you.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Okay, if the op is not happy about my actions on his thread I will delete my wrong doings.

Yes it is a 200a into a 100a panel conversion.

It is a main service panel.

Yes, the spot of the original 200a breaker will not be used unless it is okay just to leave the original 200a breaker disconnect in there.

I would prefer a filler plate but they seem not to be to easy to find one.

I am also wondering what the op does regarding that if he has the same problem.

Thank you.

So if youre not using the main breaker then how are u feeding the panel?

 

[acer66]

So if youre not using the main breaker then how are u feeding the panel?

I bought a second panel which is a 100a panel, since they did not have a 100a breaker to fit into the spot of the 200a breaker.

The problem I have is that the 100a breaker sits on the lugs like all the other breakers
so dedicated spot for the 200a breaker is vacant.

My apologies if this is hard to understand, my brain sometimes works in very, even to me,
mysteries ways when I have to explain things.

Maybe pictures help.

This is the 200a panel I want to use
http://www.lowes.com/pd_188143-82364-CH42B200V_0__?productId=3018788

This is the 100a panel with the 100a breaker I want to use as a disconnect for the 200a panel.
http://www.lowes.com/pd_185541-82364-BR3030BC100V_0__?productId=3018694

Thank you

 

[C96]

What is this?

 

[acer66]

What is this?

A chicken with wet red clay in its feathers looking not very happy.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I bought a second panel which is a 100a panel, since they did not have a 100a breaker to fit into the spot of the 200a breaker.

The problem I have is that the 100a breaker sits on the lugs like all the other breakers
so dedicated spot for the 200a breaker is vacant.

My apologies if this is hard to understand, my brain sometimes works in very, even to me,
mysteries ways when I have to explain things.

Maybe pictures help.

This is the 200a panel I want to use
http://www.lowes.com/pd_188143-82364-CH42B200V_0__?productId=3018788

This is the 100a panel with the 100a breaker I want to use as a disconnect for the 200a panel.
http://www.lowes.com/pd_185541-82364-BR3030BC100V_0__?productId=3018694

Thank you

Those links dont work but i think i get what youre doing.

Ok, so is there a disconnect ahead of this 200a panel that your using with a 100a main?

If so, why not just leave the 200a....

Also, if youre gonna backfeed a breaker, u need the proper retention kit to hold down the breaker.

 

[acer66]

Those links dont work but i think i get what youre doing.

Ok, so is there a disconnect ahead of this 200a panel that your using with a 100a main?

If so, why not just leave the 200a....

Also, if youre gonna backfeed a breaker, u need the proper retention kit to hold down the breaker.

Weird, links work for me.

No disconnect before the panel.

Yes, the 100a breaker comes with the proper retention kit.

Almost sounds like I should just leave the the 200a breaker disconnected in there.

Thank you

 

[pattenp]

The Lowe's links don't work for me either. For some reason the link just goes to a main Lowe's ad page and doesn't come up with the product you are trying to show. I always have this same problem when putting a Lowe's product link in a post.

 

[acer66]

Weird but good to know, if this link does not work I will post a picture.

It shows a 200a breaker I like the one I like to replace with a 100a breaker same style as the 30a breaker in the same picture which will have a retention kit installed.

http://www.geninterlock.com/images/panels/eatbr200_u_lg.jpg

Thank you

 

[nine4gmc]

Acer, if you post that last link in the "picture" button above the reply box, it will show like this:

I've made some progress on outlets, still have some to do this week along with the ground rods but half my machines have outlets now!

 

[acer66]

Op, are you leaving the 200a breaker as a disconnect in there?

 

[nine4gmc]

My sub panel did not have a main breaker so I assumed that was the style I needed so I bought a "main lug" style instead of "main breaker". From what I have gathered here, I only need a main breaker if I exceed 6 circuits. I have 5 now and I'm trying to plan for just 1 more but we'll see.

How many 110v outlets can I daisy chain on one circuit?

 

[acer66]

Thanks for the tip posting a pic nine4gmc, I just saw that.

 

[Beemer533]

.....

How many 110v outlets can I daisy chain on one circuit?

I don't believe NEC has a limit, but I would probably not go over 7 or so, . especially in a shop . I guess it sort of depends on your layout..

 

[nine4gmc]

Hey thanks, that will work out perfect. I wanted to run 5 outlets off the 2 current outlets in the circuit.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

My sub panel did not have a main breaker so I assumed that was the style I needed so I bought a "main lug" style instead of "main breaker". From what I have gathered here, I only need a main breaker if I exceed 6 circuits. I have 5 now and I'm trying to plan for just 1 more but we'll see.

How many 110v outlets can I daisy chain on one circuit?

So you bought a 30 space panel, but only want to install 6 circuits? Doesn't make sense. I know that before you are done, you will have more installed. Why not just buy the main breaker kit that attaches where the lugs are, and be done with it?

Charles

 

[nine4gmc]

I bought the bigger panel because I wanted the option to upgrade to a meter service for one, and second reason I got this particular unit was because it was on sale for $50 with several breakers included. I'm a tightwad that likes overkill.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Weird, links work for me.

No disconnect before the panel.

Yes, the 100a breaker comes with the proper retention kit.

Almost sounds like I should just leave the the 200a breaker disconnected in there.

Thank you

Why do you need the 100 amp breaker? The 200 amp will serve the purpose as a disconnect switch. Sounds like you are overthinking this.

Charles

 

[wyliesdiesels]

to that Charles! ^^^