Alternate / Off-Grid Energy ideas and solutions

[RickP]

My biggest issue in SD is heating. I am all electric and will need to come up with something better before I can use alternate power for that.

That was exactly the problem with my old house - all electric made extended power outages unbearable. We added a wood stove and it helped with providing some heat. But it was only a partial solution because our well water pipes would freeze without power to let faucets drip.

When building our new house, we installed a heat pump with propane backup, so our standby generator could run the furnace fan. We also power the well pump and water heater, so we have running hot and cold water. And a propane stove in the kitchen allows us to cook. I like your pftwhftb slogan - that's exactly what we tried to do here.

Switching your house over from all electric might take a while, but you'll definitely be glad you did the next time you have an extended winter power outage.

 

[trainer]

Something like this?
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Kohler-60-KW...I_Generators&hash=item566c1fd75c#ht_892wt_662


Or like this... Maybe with some chrome and headers...
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/KOHLER-FORD-...pment_Parts&hash=item1c46f64d9b#ht_3293wt_662

 

[ambenz]

I am interested in the concept of building your own power plant if you have a abundance of fossil fuel on your property. Trees specifically.
Burning wood to make steam, for heat and using a steam engine to power a flywheel to generate power to store in batteries.
Supplementing solar to keep a room of deep cycle batteries charged.
It is an interesting concept and the break even point may never be achieved, it would allow you modern day convinces where no local power is present.
A little Dynamo would take up a footprint of a truck and maybe another bay for a rack of batteries.

They had some pretty cool ideas in the early 1900's...the technology is there but with grid technology, personal power plants have never been developed to it's full potential.

 

[frankush]

This is a good discussion but I think one thing that has not been discussed except in one post, is the life of the equipment. What do you think the life expectancy of a small, non commercial rated generator is? In hours of use? If it's just used for the emergency power outage, it will seem like a very long time. When you start talking every day, off grid usage, you'd be surprised how often you'll be replacing or repairing these units. Like everything else made these days, good quality, long lasting small generators are getting more and more difficult to find.

The older Onan generators that ran at 1700 rpms and had all steel construction could run for what seemed like forever when maintained. They also were more efficient with fuel because of the slower running speed. I attended Generac factory service training for their residential lineup and I will say that life expectancy of the modern stuff is extremely poor.

 

[CNGsaves]

With enough rotating mass, a perpetual machine could likely be kept running decades with wind, solar & genset powered by methane from digester (ie intermediate catcher of solids and "juicy" liquids . . . or hybrid of septic tank). The goal would be self-sustaining for the household, based on "inputs" that were readily available there. Wood gasification would be another source of methane, heat, & electricity if near heavily wooded property. Finally, all forms of "geo" should be used like wave, earth thermal, etc.

BIG BUSINESS, BIG OIL, and BIG PoCo's just don't want the above to succeed.

Iceland is nearly self-sustaining from geo-thermal. It CAN be done.

 

[pftwhftb]

That was exactly the problem with my old house - all electric made extended power outages unbearable. We added a wood stove and it helped with providing some heat. But it was only a partial solution because our well water pipes would freeze without power to let faucets drip.

When building our new house, we installed a heat pump with propane backup, so our standby generator could run the furnace fan. We also power the well pump and water heater, so we have running hot and cold water. And a propane stove in the kitchen allows us to cook. I like your pftwhftb slogan - that's exactly what we tried to do here.

Switching your house over from all electric might take a while, but you'll definitely be glad you did the next time you have an extended winter power outage.

I had a woodburner, it broke and was unsafe from the previous owners of the house. I had to take it out and get rid of it. I someday might get another one and I still have the chimney and everything.

I'm thinking I will build my own generator and wind turbines to meet the needs that I have for outages better. As far as being off grid it will be a while till I am even close to it.

My slogan is what I live by actually, have for a long time. I feel it is the best way to live because there are so many what ifs out there that everyone has to prepare for in different ways for their own needs.

Hope everyone has a great Christmas.

 

[TractorJeff]

I heat my house with 2 woodstoves 24/7 using 2 natural gas furnaces for backup. As far as electricity, so far 4 hours of no power has been the max. We use kerosene hurricane lamps for light. I will buy a generator, probably a dual fuel type with 240 volt output for the water pump. If the wife can't flush, she isn't happy!
Rereading the thread replies, you guys need to think out of the box on getting wood! Almost all of mine comes from local yard and road tree maintenance along with TONS of hardwood shipping skids made up of 4by6 and 6by8 hardwood timbers.

 

[wolverine22391]

This gentleman has built some pretty cool setups, plus very knowledgeable about power converters.

 

[trainer]

The small Honda generators like the eu2000i I referred to in my post can easily last a couple thousand hours of run time with nothing but general maintenance. There are people in some of the camping and RV forums that have way over 5,000hrs on them and they are still going strong. That is a long life expectancy if you are only running the generator an hour or two a day to charge batteries.

In regards to the cheaper import generators I would never bother, because the cost of ownership per hour of use for those machines would end up way higher than something like a Honda.

I've had very good luck with a chinese 3000 watt generator. It's currently got about 1500 hours on it with nothing but regular oil changes at about 150 hours, running synthetic oil. I've never had to add oil between changes. It starts first or second pull every time . My buddy has a 3000 ei honda which is a very nice unit but cost more than 5x what mine did and the fuel consumption is comparable running the same load (we take turns taking our generators to his hunting cabin).

 

[racingtadpole]

And I'll bet the price is right !

Still, these are really not what you want for a long term off grid solution !

One of the best flooded lead acid battery companies out there is Trojan Battery.

This statement baffles me. Why would you not want the convenience of sealed batteries. Flooded batteries are not that cheap if you include the ongoing maintenance cost on top of the intial purchase (and they gas and of course wherever you have flooded batteries, you have acid). Flooded cells served their purpose in the day, but they really are stoneage technology by comparison to some of the VRLA (Valve Regulated Lead Acid) stuff thats around now. The acid is fully absorbed into the substrate, not slopping around in liquid form, there is no water to add, if a correct charge regime is maintained there will be no gas to atmosphere.

Whilst a handful of 96AH RPS standby batteries are almost certainly not big enough for a long term off the grid solution at anything other than a tinkering level, the chemistry and manufacture of the batteries is exactly what you want to my way of thinking.

 

[trainer]

That is great that you found a good one, taking a bit of a gamble and winning on something like that can save you a lot of money. I have heard that some people are having great luck with the super cheap (~$85 on sale) small Harbor Freight generators as well, but others have duds right out of the box, so it is hard to know if you can trust one if you buy it. If you found one that worked well that would be a very cheap way to charge small battery banks.

I have tried finding something other than Honda, Yamaha, etc. that has been made for a while with good reviews and product support in terms of future parts etc. I keep coming up short when it comes to the cheaper offshore stuff. I am sure they are like anything else, there are going to be a couple real gems that are great value for the money, but it is hard to know in advance which ones those might be.

For future reference, what brand and model is the one you have, and is it an inverter (pure sine) generator like the Honda I referenced or the more common and much cheaper modified sine wave type?

QUOTE]

I've got a Champion generator that uses the honda-clone 6.5 hp engine. It's basically a generic Chinese machine, but it comes with a warranty and parts support.
Canadian tire often has them on sale here in the $3-400 range
Chanpion's website has parts and tech support, so it's not really like buying an orphan.
It's not sold as an inverter model, But I've never had any issues in many hours running things like TV's satellite recievers, a freezer, and electronic-ballast fluorescent lights.

I have some experience with those $99 2-stroke generators too. They can generally put out much more than their rated capacity, but they tend to have issues like vapour'locking and parts rattling loose and falling off. Replace and reroute the fuel line and go over it with some locktite and it'll work very well for what it is.

 

[pftwhftb]

This statement baffles me. Why would you not want the convenience of sealed batteries. Flooded batteries are not that cheap if you include the ongoing maintenance cost on top of the intial purchase (and they gas and of course wherever you have flooded batteries, you have acid). Flooded cells served their purpose in the day, but they really are stoneage technology by comparison to some of the VRLA (Valve Regulated Lead Acid) stuff thats around now. The acid is fully absorbed into the substrate, not slopping around in liquid form, there is no water to add, if a correct charge regime is maintained there will be no gas to atmosphere.

Whilst a handful of 96AH RPS standby batteries are almost certainly not big enough for a long term off the grid solution at anything other than a tinkering level, the chemistry and manufacture of the batteries is exactly what you want to my way of thinking.

I prefer the GEL batteries or AGM myself due to needing zero maintenance and with a smart charger they can be operated for a long time. I'm have 4 GEL that are 9 years old. I use a smart charger on them and float charge them monthly normally. They are never below 90% discharge if I wait 3 months between charges. I think AGM is what I will use if/when I do a full system. I would also need ones that can't freeze easily and AGM/GEL meet that requirement better.

 

[pftwhftb]

That is great that you found a good one, taking a bit of a gamble and winning on something like that can save you a lot of money. I have heard that some people are having great luck with the super cheap (~$85 on sale) small Harbor Freight generators as well, but others have duds right out of the box, so it is hard to know if you can trust one if you buy it. If you found one that worked well that would be a very cheap way to charge small battery banks.

I have tried finding something other than Honda, Yamaha, etc. that has been made for a while with good reviews and product support in terms of future parts etc. I keep coming up short when it comes to the cheaper offshore stuff. I am sure they are like anything else, there are going to be a couple real gems that are great value for the money, but it is hard to know in advance which ones those might be.

For future reference, what brand and model is the one you have, and is it an inverter (pure sine) generator like the Honda I referenced or the more common and much cheaper modified sine wave type?

QUOTE]

I've got a Champion generator that uses the honda-clone 6.5 hp engine. It's basically a generic Chinese machine, but it comes with a warranty and parts support.
Canadian tire often has them on sale here in the $3-400 range
Chanpion's website has parts and tech support, so it's not really like buying an orphan.
It's not sold as an inverter model, But I've never had any issues in many hours running things like TV's satellite recievers, a freezer, and electronic-ballast fluorescent lights.

I have some experience with those $99 2-stroke generators too. They can generally put out much more than their rated capacity, but they tend to have issues like vapour'locking and parts rattling loose and falling off. Replace and reroute the fuel line and go over it with some locktite and it'll work very well for what it is.

I have a Champion generator and love it. Price was great and customer support even better. It is not pure sine and I cannot run my 60" TV off of it or basically any important electronics without it making them hum due to the modified sine wave output.
The customer service was amazing. I had the rule cutoff switch break on me the day before Thanksgiving 2012 and somewhere around where the warranty ran out. I called customer service, the guy I talked to said it was not an issue and expressed me a new part which got to me in 2 days.

The switch breaking I believe was my fault due to leaving gas in it and letting it corrode and varnish for too long. I swapped out the switch and have not had issues again. It starts on the first or second pull no matter how cold it is, I've tested it at 20 to 30 below zero. It runs 12 hours on 4 gallons running 2 1200 watt heaters. It is rated at 3500 running watts and 4000 starting watts. It saved me from freezing in our blizzard of 2013. I stand by them.

I would like to get a pure sine wave inverter to run my sensitive electronics off of, but to be honest in a emergency outage I don't need them anyways and this generator will run all my essentials.

I have it in a outdoor deck box with insulation to help deaden the sound and keep it protected during storms. With the box and insulation the DB's go from 82 db's to 55 db's with the box closed at a distance of 2 feet. It has intake vents for air, a fan to expel heat, and an exhaust pipe ran external. Also under it I have rubber paving tiles to deaden the vibrations onto my deck. There are holes in the side that I run extension cords though and the grounding cable. I also have a remote temp gauge so I can monitor the temp inside the box from in the house so I don't get an overheated generator.

For long term alternate power the generator I have is not what I want.. A wind turbine and solar is the way to go with a great battery bank and some good inverters.

 

[trainer]

I have a Champion generator and love it. Price was great and customer support even better. It is not pure sine and I cannot run my 60" TV off of it or basically any important electronics without it making them hum due to the modified sine wave output.
.

That's the same generator I have. I run a 42" LCD television on it with no problems.

I have it at camp and I have it in a small shed that is mostly closed in but not completely finished yet. My plan is to line the shed with some old ceiling tiles to cut the noise and to make something similar to what you have for exhaust and ventilation. I'd also like to run a wire to the main building so I can shut it down at bedtime without having to go outside.

 

[pftwhftb]

That's the same generator I have. I run a 42" LCD television on it with no problems.

I have it at camp and I have it in a small shed that is mostly closed in but not completely finished yet. My plan is to line the shed with some old ceiling tiles to cut the noise and to make something similar to what you have for exhaust and ventilation. I'd also like to run a wire to the main building so I can shut it down at bedtime without having to go outside.

Mine is right outside my back door so I can shut it down pretty easy, but a remote switch is a good future item I might look into. It was pretty easy to set up the box and sure does help protect it in blizzards.

I've tried all my TVs and the small LCD's work but hum, the big ones just hum and show a black screen. I might eventually get a pure sine inverter and see what I can muster up with that.

 

[DonPowers]

As I am approaching retirement I’m looking for ways to minimize my household operating cost through retirement. With the deregulation of the power industry, utilities are being bought and sold and before long we will be down to just a handful of companies providing all of our power. With a lack of competition, I see power prices doing nothing but go up. Consequently, I have been looking into various alternative technologies to offset the cost. Unfortunately, the current return on investment with today’s electrical cost just isn’t there. As rates go up, the return will be better. Right now however, the return can be up to 20 years with some of these technologies.

So far my favorite system would be a grid tie photovoltaic using micro inverters. I like these because you can build a system over time and connect them right into your panel with a 20 amp 220 circuit breaker. They automatically synchronize with the grid but shut down if grid power is lost. You can also tie them into a battery-backed system for emergencies, though I’m not completely sold on batteries using current technology.

I checked with my not so local utility and they don’t buy surplus power from these systems. You have a $50 one-time fee to verify that your system won’t impact theirs and an annual contract that runs from March 1st to the end of February. Any surplus will be credited to your account, up to the end of February, then you loose it and start fresh in March. I don’t see where this is a problem because if you have a surplus in January, just crank up some electric heat.

For power outages I have two generators. One is a 6.5 KW liquid cooled Kubota diesel and the other is a Honda EU 2000. I went with diesel for my primary because the fuel will keep for several years, unlike gas. The only thing you have to make sure of is that it’s a winter blend fuel so it won’t jell in the winter. I also plan to get a dual fuel conversion kit for the Honda. Emergencies are all about options.

With the two generators, I can run the whole house for about two hours a couple times each day with the diesel and fill in gaps with the Honda. The diesel burns about a half gallon per hour at full load and the Honda can run up to 10 hours on a gallon.

As for non-commercially available mechanical technologies, I want to be the old grey haired fart that lives down the road with strange contraptions in his back yard. There is a lot you can do with refrigeration gas. Many years ago I read about a guy that built a 5 KW generator using home made solar panels on his garage roof and some type of a Freon motor. You can also get some very high temperatures using Fresnel lenses or parabolic mirrors. Difference in temperature to difference in pressure = power, it’s all in what you do to convert it from one form to another. A power plant is nothing but a big energy converter.

 

[DonPowers]

Here are a few links:

The Minto Wheel
http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt...MTM-?p=minto+wheel&fr2=sb-top-search&fr=aaplw

Solar Pods, if you want a ready made kit.
http://solarpod.net/buysolarpod

Lenses & Mirrors

http://www.greenpowerscience.com/

 

[pftwhftb]

One of the most interesting things I have been researching is perpetual motion machines hooked to a generator supplying power. They are either ran by permanent magnets or kinetic energy.

Nothing perfected yet of course, but the thought of that simple tech is very interesting.

 

[brianh]

I have a 9k grid tie system on the shop makes sense to use the utility company as a battery.
for the times the power goes out we have a generator for the fridge and well.

Have a 300 watt solar panel system and batteries with led lighting in the house we actually use it all the time I had made it for power outeges.

And my solar powered display trailer I take to art shows I have two lead acid deep cycle batteries and a 1000 watt inverter to run my die grinders and drills when I chainsaw carve. I have two 100 watt panels I add to the trailer if needed.

The shop has 160 sq foot of solar hot water panel for floor heat, the pumps run off photovoltaic panels so it is grid independent I will be adding another panel it works great once the slab is warm it can go for a few cloudy days before cooling off.

Thermal solar is cheap and efficient and often overlooked.

Solar hot water panel trees shading it have been cut down

 

[pftwhftb]

I have a 9k grid tie system on the shop makes sense to use the utility company as a battery.
for the times the power goes out we have a generator for the fridge and well.

Have a 300 watt solar panel system and batteries with led lighting in the house we actually use it all the time I had made it for power outeges.

And my solar powered display trailer I take to art shows I have two lead acid deep cycle batteries and a 1000 watt inverter to run my die grinders and drills when I chainsaw carve. I have two 100 watt panels I add to the trailer if needed.

The shop has 160 sq foot of solar hot water panel for floor heat, the pumps run off photovoltaic panels so it is grid independent I will be adding another panel it works great once the slab is warm it can go for a few cloudy days before cooling off.

Thermal solar is cheap and efficient and often overlooked.

Solar hot water panel trees shading it have been cut down

Nice setup and great artwork... you are well ahead of me on what you have accomplished. I do use the grid as a battery for now and have all the generators and such for backup, but I would like to disco from the grid altogether someday (20 years). I think someday residential off grid systems will be a norm. Sounds like you could be well on you way to being there sooner than later with some added things.

 

[brianh]

What I mean about using the grid as a battery is my excess power goes on the grid spinning my meter backwards, at night when I am not producing solar power I run off the grid.

In the summer the system produces more than what I use giving us credit for low solar times like winter. for a year it produces about 80 percent of our usage with more efficient use we should be able to get 100 percent.


One major hog we have is electric hot water heater that will be supplemented with solar hot water this year.

 

[RPH]

Check out homesteading today.com, they have an alternate energy section that has extensive discussions on this subject. And other great ideas on saving cash on energy.

 

[pftwhftb]

What I mean about using the grid as a battery is my excess power goes on the grid spinning my meter backwards, at night when I am not producing solar power I run off the grid.

In the summer the system produces more than what I use giving us credit for low solar times like winter. for a year it produces about 80 percent of our usage with more efficient use we should be able to get 100 percent.


One major hog we have is electric hot water heater that will be supplemented with solar hot water this year.

I don't think my area allows us to put power into the grid like that. I will have to research that. I've heard of others doing it too and it is a great idea.

 

[brianh]

I don't think my area allows us to put power into the grid like that. I will have to research that. I've heard of others doing it too and it is a great idea.

It looks like your state is one of four that does not have net metering.

This is an interesting site lots of ingenious projects I have been going to it for years http://www.otherpower.com/

Another one http://www.builditsolar.com/

 

[pftwhftb]

It looks like your state is one of four that does not have net metering.

This is an interesting site lots of ingenious projects I have been going to it for years http://www.otherpower.com/

Another one http://www.builditsolar.com/

South Dakota is backwards in a lot of ways. I love it here, but they are not progressive at all. Our employment laws speak for the whole state, employers have all the rights and employees have zero rights for protection against anything.............but............
I'm going to be doing a lot of research on solar, wind, and other sources. All I can do is research at this point until I can fund all the ideas.