Are electricians that busy?

[AlwaysFixingSomething]

You're making a lot of noise on this thread about licenses vs. certifications and blah, blah. There are many "licensed" and/or certified electricians that can do as poor quality work as the 'homeowner' that you categorize as a hack in a generality.

If you would like to help the OP in getting someone to pull his permit and do his work so he can move into his new garage, then do that. If you have information that the electrical contracting business is so busy now that they simply overlook a garage job then show the OP that. All he wants is help in getting his garage done. If he has to get in line or fill out a lottery form to get a sparky, he probably would at this point.

Or if you have any suggestions on how the OP can move this along I bet he would be very open to hear that. I think that's why he started this thread. He certainly did not indicate that he was going to watch youtube and then wire his garage.

I think a homeowner has the right to enjoy and improve his property. If said homeowner has done all the due diligence to get an electrician approved by the AHJ and cannot get his work down in 5 months of waiting and calling people, that he should wire the goddamn garage hisownself with or w/o the help of his relatives and call the inspector. If he is failed if and when all the work is up to code, I'd take that case to court.

I was simply replying to a few different posts in this thread. If you think it's noise and felt the need to add your own noise...i don't know what to say. It's called a discussion forum for a reason.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Not in most places in PA and NJ. Each township/city has their own rules. Philadelphia the closest city to me requires only licensed electricians to pull permits.

You live in the wrong part of the country.
Ive got a master electricians license and an electrical contractors license,And Ive got no problem with people doing their own wiring as long as it can pass an inspection.
I also have a city Omaha master plumbers license/a Bellevue master plumbers license and a state of iowa master plumbers license,and don't have a problem with people doing their own plumbing either as it passes an inspection also.

 

[PaulyC]

honestly, a licensed guy is just somebody that can proficiently read and interpret a code book.

 

[jrsulo]

You live in the wrong part of the country.
Ive got a master electricians license and an electrical contractors license,And Ive got no problem with people doing their own wiring as long as it can pass an inspection.
I also have a city Omaha master plumbers license/a Bellevue master plumbers license and a state of iowa master plumbers license,and don't have a problem with people doing their own plumbing either as it passes an inspection also.

 

[AlwaysFixingSomething]

You live in the wrong part of the country.
Ive got a master electricians license and an electrical contractors license,And Ive got no problem with people doing their own wiring as long as it can pass an inspection.
I also have a city Omaha master plumbers license/a Bellevue master plumbers license and a state of iowa master plumbers license,and don't have a problem with people doing their own plumbing either as it passes an inspection also.

Where did i say i had a problem with homeowners doing their own work? It's the bulk of my business fixing their mistakes. Go for it.

I posted all that stuff about the NEC because the OP said it's a liability and it is.

Ofcorse it's a liability for untrained unqualified people working on dangerous things like electricity. I totally agree with the NEC on requiring proper training why wouldn't anybody want that?

 

[351cmach]

Go out and get a commercial/contractors insurance policy for your uncle and have him do the job.

Going to look into it

 

[AlwaysFixingSomething]

Going to look into it

Why can't your uncle electrician get his own insurance and do the work?

 

[James-W]

honestly, a licensed guy is just somebody that can proficiently read and interpret a code book.

They also need to be able to perform the job to standard. Knowing the code is one thing, following it is something else. You need to be able to do both.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Where did i say i had a problem with homeowners doing their own work? It's the bulk of my business fixing their mistakes. Go for it.

I posted all that stuff about the NEC because the OP said it's a liability and it is.

Ofcorse it's a liability for untrained unqualified people working on dangerous things like electricity. I totally agree with the NEC on requiring proper training why wouldn't anybody want that?

Ive got no problem with people being trained .But if they pull a permit and have the work inspected theres major difference them doing it and me pulling a permit and doing the work or sending a couple guys out to do it if its being inspected.
A homeowner generally wont generally be as much of a detail oriented/**** retentive /nit picking freak as me,But then again most licensed contractors aren't either.
Anyway its not that big of a deal,Id say theres more danger in somebody doing their own brakes on their car than in somebody doing a wiring job that gets inspected.

 

[AlwaysFixingSomething]

Ive got no problem with people being trained .But if they pull a permit and have the work inspected theres major difference them doing it and me pulling a permit and doing the work or sending a couple guys out to do it if its being inspected.
A homeowner generally wont generally be as much of a detail oriented/**** retentive /nit picking freak as me,But then again most licensed contractors aren't either.
Anyway its not that big of a deal,Id say theres more danger in somebody doing their own brakes on their car than in somebody doing a wiring job that gets inspected.

Passing inspection doesn't guarantee it's done right inspectors often miss things. So if you have an unqualified person doing the work and the inspector misses something serious that's a recipe for disaster.

Yes running 120v branch circuits in a garage for the most part you wouldn't think would be hard but trust me in the 20 years i've been doing this the most simplest stuff is the most f'ed up.

 

[James-W]

A homeowner won't generally be as much of a detail oriented/**** retentive/nit picking freak as me. But then again, most licensed contractors aren't either.

I understand what you are saying, and in many case I would agree with you. But let me give you my take on this because I think it is important to consider. If someone else does the job for me, they are doing it to make money and they want to get the job done and move on. I am not saying they won't do a good job, I am just saying they want to hurry up and finish the work. After all, time is money and they will want to move on to the next job. On the other hand, if I do the work myself, I would figure it is my garage and I want to do the best job I possibly can. Therefore, I will take whatever time it takes me to get the job done, not only correctly, but as esthetically appealing as possible. In other words, it is my garage and I care a lot more about it than the guy doing the wiring. To him it is just another in a long series of jobs. To me, it is my "fun place" and I want it to not only "be right" I want it to "look nice" too.

 

[351cmach]

Why can't your uncle electrician get his own insurance and do the work?

Well, Uncle moved out of state when he retired. I don't trust father inlaw to do the work. He's been retired for 8yrs from doing commercial work. He's not as **** and neat as I am. I think I am more familiar with current codes than he is. Now my cousin I'll have to ask him about getting insured on my dime

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

I understand what you are saying, and in many case I would agree with you. But let me give you my take on this because I think it is important to consider. If someone else does the job for me, they are doing it to make money and they want to get the job done and move on. I am not saying they won't do a good job, I am just saying they want to hurry up and finish the work. After all, time is money and they will want to move on to the next job. On the other hand, if I do the work myself, I would figure it is my garage and I want to do the best job I possibly can. Therefore, I will take whatever time it takes me to get the job done, not only correctly, but as esthetically appealing as possible. In other words, it is my garage and I care a lot more about it than the guy doing the wiring. To him it is just another in a long series of jobs. To me, it is my "fun place" and I want it to not only "be right" I want it to "look nice" too.

Im definitely all for making things look nice,Ive had more than one inspector call me the most **** retentive ***** they've ever seen.

 

[James-W]

Well, Uncle moved out of state when he retired. I don't trust father inlaw to do the work. He's been retired for 8yrs from doing commercial work. He's not as **** and neat as I am. I think I am more familiar with current codes than he is. Now my cousin I'll have to ask him about getting insured on my dime

Around here you MUST hire a master electrician to pull the permit to install a new service. As a homeowner you can get a permit to do the electrical wiring, but you cannot install a new service. I don't know exactly why that is, it is just the way it has been set up and we don't have a choice in the matter.

What I did, with the help of a friend of mine, is to install the meter base, install the mast to the garage, install the electrical panel, run the cables from the mast head down to the meter base, and dug out for the two grounding rods. The master electrician pulled the permit, ran the cables from the meter base into the electrical panel, pounded in the grounding rods with his power pounding tool, ran the ground wire to the electrical panel, installed a light above the panel and an electrical outlet beneath the panel. Then he signed off on it and contacted the city inspector to tell him the new service was ready for inspection. I pulled a permit to wire the garage and I did wire it.

 

[AlwaysFixingSomething]

Im definitely all for making things look nice,Ive had more than one inspector call me the most **** retentive ***** they've ever seen.

Pipe art. I have inspectors say the same thing to me when they look inside my panels. They don't call me a ***** though

 

[AlwaysFixingSomething]

Well, Uncle moved out of state when he retired. I don't trust father inlaw to do the work. He's been retired for 8yrs from doing commercial work. He's not as **** and neat as I am. I think I am more familiar with current codes than he is. Now my cousin I'll have to ask him about getting insured on my dime

I'm confused...now your an electrician? Time for me to bow out of this thread it's becoming commical. Everyone is an electrician these days. Git r done i saw it online so i be qwallyified

 

[bigredmf]

Bought a new to me house 3 years ago in a track in western NY. All permitted electrical yet the licensed electrician used the stab locks in all the switches. Is it code yes would I pay someone to install that way No. The panel is a joke there must be 20 twin breakers in it and it looks like a rats nest.

I installed a pool pulled all permits and wired it to NEC with full bonding. The inspector came out and looked made me change the convenience outlet to WR and mailed me my paperwork.
I am not a licensed electrician but I am not a *****....


Red


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[351cmach]

I'm confused...now your an electrician? Time for me to bow out of this thread it's becoming commical. Everyone is an electrician these days. Git r done i saw it online so i be qwallyified

please do. you're obviously confused.

 

[Bib Overalls]

Im definitely all for making things look nice. I've had more than one inspector call me the most **** retentive ***** they've ever seen.

Very impressive conduit work. **** retentiveness (about workmanship) is a quality that I like to see in the people that work for me.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Bought a new to me house 3 years ago in a track in western NY. All permitted electrical yet the licensed electrician used the stab locks in all the switches. Is it code yes would I pay someone to install that way No. The panel is a joke there must be 20 twin breakers in it and it looks like a rats nest.

I installed a pool pulled all permits and wired it to NEC with full bonding. The inspector came out and looked made me change the convenience outlet to WR and mailed me my paperwork.
I am not a licensed electrician but I am not a *****....


Red


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Theres hacks in every trade.

 

[Kevin C]

Yeah makes you wonder why an AHJ would amend something about being qualified to do electrical work At least most areas are catching on and requiring only a licensed electrician to pull permits and do the work.

Perhaps I could have stated that better.... There is no amendment to allow homeowners, none is needed.

What I am saying is its the AHJ's call on how things work.

Our local amendments are more geared at making things work...

Some Examples:

Exception No. 2: AFCI protection shall not be required on GFCI protected receptacles installed in dining
rooms.
Exception No 3: AFCI protection shall not be required for optional, dedicated outlets that supply
equipment known to cause unwanted tripping of AFCI devices [see Statewide Code Interpretation for
210.12 (A)].
Exception No 4: AFCI protection shall not be required on branch circuits supplying receptacles or
appliances fastened in place located in hallways, kitchens and laundry areas.

(2) Replacement or upgrading of a service or panelboard shall not require that existing circuits be protected by AFCI devices.

I'm a homeowner and I do all my own work. What's nice is I get treated very well and all my work passed with no problems. Two reasons... I read a lot and I get good info from this forum

That and I tend to over build. I got the toughest inspector, his only comment was you didn't need to do all this (EMT for all circuits), you could have just used romex. Nice that you did... But it looks like it was a lot of work.

Funny thing is while I can do all my own trade work... In Oregon we are not allow to pump our own gas.

 

[AlwaysFixingSomething]

Perhaps I could have stated that better.... There is no amendment to allow homeowners, none is needed.

What I am saying is its the AHJ's call on how things work.

Our local amendments are more geared at making things work...

Some Examples:



I'm a homeowner and I do all my own work. What's nice is I get treated very well and all my work passed with no problems. Two reasons... I read a lot and I get good info from this forum

That and I tend to over build. I got the toughest inspector, his only comment was you didn't need to do all this (EMT for all circuits), you could have just used romex. Nice that you did... But it looks like it was a lot of work.

Funny thing is while I can do all my own trade work... In Oregon we are not allow to pump our own gas.

Good luck telling your home owners insurance if anything ever happened like a fire. I guarantee they wouldn't pay a dime knowing you personally did the electric work regardless of being allowed to and having it inspected. The bottom line is you aren't qualified to do the work. Reading forums does not make you qualified.

You might be allowed to do minor electric work but i doubt service upgrades or any work on the service is allowed.

 

[James-W]

In Oregon we are not allow to pump our own gas.

So much for "self service" gas stations in Oregon.

 

[bigredmf]

Good luck telling your home owners insurance if anything ever happened like a fire. I guarantee they wouldn't pay a dime knowing you personally did the electric work regardless of being allowed to and having it inspected. The bottom line is you aren't qualified to do the work. Reading forums does not make you qualified.



You might be allowed to do minor electric work but i doubt service upgrades or any work on the service is allowed.

Home owners insurance can't deny a claim on any inspected work. The inspection company is assuming liability but your home owners will cover and potentially go after the inspector. They can't deny a claim on homeowner installed un inspected either.

If you fell asleep smoking and burned your house down they would have to pay if it was not arson/intentional.

Maybe it varies by state but at least in New York insurance companies may Not cherry pick what you are insured for unless they explicitly limit on your actual policy.

For auto insurance for example. You get in a accident and are convicted of DUI you are still covered.

My 50 cents

Red




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[A_Pmech]

Good luck telling your home owners insurance if anything ever happened like a fire. I guarantee they wouldn't pay a dime knowing you personally did the electric work regardless of being allowed to and having it inspected.

There's an enormous amount of hand wringing on this forum about nebulous liability concerns.

It's my understanding that an insurance company cannot deny a homeowner's insurance claim based on poor DIY workmanship, unless they can show that the poor workmanship was a deliberate attempt to cause a loss.

However, some insurance companies do offer a discount on homeowner's rates if the electrical work is done by a licensed electrician.

Besides, we're talking about pulling some wire in a garage, not landing a man on the moon. It isn't rocket science.

 

[Rock knocker]

Home owners insurance can't deny a claim on any inspected work. The inspection company is assuming liability but your home owners will cover and potentially go after the inspector. They can't deny a claim on homeowner installed un inspected either.

If you fell asleep smoking and burned your house down they would have to pay if it was not arson/intentional.

Maybe it varies by state but at least in New York insurance companies may Not cherry pick what you are insured for unless they explicitly limit on your actual policy.

For auto insurance for example. You get in a accident and are convicted of DUI you are still covered.

Exactly. This is one of the biggest myths out there, but people like Always can't ever come up with a verifiable source. All they can do is repeat the same old alarmist tripe

 

[FTWingRiders]

Are electricians that busy they don't want to do a garage? I've had my garage up and weather tight since end of Aug '14. The local electrical inspect will not allow anyone to pull a permit unless licensed and insured. I've had 4 different electricians look at the job and say they would do it no problem. The first one (from sept) started the rough and hasn't finished it and says he is busy haven't heard from him since. Second one ( nov) I'll give you an estimate and get back to you. haven't heard from him. Third one (end of Dec) said I'm finishing up a job and then I"ll do yours. He said "I'll have you hooked up in no time". Haven't heard from him either. Now I'm on the 4th electrician been 3 weeks now, said he's behind. I'm frustrated! What gives? Job to small?

I've had no issues with any other contractors. I've paid what they asked with dead presidents so that's not the issue.

To respond to your first post, I totally feel your pain. My whole project has been a waiting game.. wait for this sub, waiting for that sub etc.. I've gone thru 4 electricians myself. I just need this last one to return to convert some plugs to 220 now that the shop is coming together. Ive heard "Later this week" 3 times so far.. really ******* me off.. I've always paid the bill the same day I get the invoice too. The whole job was promised by the end of last August.. Now I'm hoping by Memorial day..

 

[LS6 Tommy]

I have found that many times a contractor will come and look at a job started by another contractor, tell you he'll be back to do the work, but never return becuase he doesn't want to be involved with the liability of signing off on work of unkown quality by the first contractor.

Tommy

 

[Kevin C]

Good luck telling your home owners insurance if anything ever happened like a fire. I guarantee they wouldn't pay a dime knowing you personally did the electric work regardless of being allowed to and having it inspected. The bottom line is you aren't qualified to do the work. Reading forums does not make you qualified.

You might be allowed to do minor electric work but i doubt service upgrades or any work on the service is allowed.

Speaking of qualified.... The jury is still out on you. The upside is you can think whatever you want, since you have no authority it doesn't matter.

As far as my qualifications go... I agree, just reading a forum might not be enough, this stuff can be confusing.

That said, I think I have been pretty good at picking stuff up. At the age of three I figured that electricity and magnets must be related and I stuck two nails into a wall outlet. I then took a horseshoe magnet and brought it close to the nails... I was thinking I would see a glow or something. Nothing happened!!!

That was until I touched the nails with the metal magnet... That got Moms attention. My older brother was pretty pissed about the arc marks on his magnet.

For the record, I'm totally for tamper proof outlets! That and most three year olds are not very good at running experiments: I tried, but in retrospect I was in over my head.

By, five I was better but I was still a bit awkward. I'm still disappointed that I broke the leg of the transistor in my radioshack electronics kit.

As a teen I mentored under a master electrician. A friends dad was good with sharing what he knew. I was taking adult ed classes at 13.

That was a long time ago and I was feeling pretty rusty. Its not like you actually rust, but your skills are not as good as when you first learned. So I read forums and a few books. Mike Holt's is great.. Here we have Speedy Pete, Norcal and a few others to keep us in line.

As far as a formal training, I have have a minor in EE and a major in Industrial Technology. My day jobs have included designing hospital lab equipment and being responsible for taking those designs through UL / NRTL certification for medical applications including CE approval and CB scheme.

Yes, I have formal training with regards to workplace safety and electrical.

Does any of this matter? Not a bit... The locals determined that if my work passes inspection, and thats all that matters. Its not what OSHA or the NFPA thinks, its the AHJ. Do you really think this is news to the insurance companies?

 

[Pinaud]

As a home owner I've pulled permits for work in Massachusetts and believe you a home owner is still able to do so (unlike Maryland):

http://www.mass.gov/eopss/consumer-prot-and-bus-lic/license-type/csl/homeowners-faqs.html

http://www.mass.gov/eopss/docs/dfs/osfm/cmr/cmr-secured/527012.pdf


Unless the laws have changed I believe the local inspector is being to strict on interpretation. Check out the links above and if you agree that a how owner can pull a permit I'd sit down with the inspector and find out why he won't allow you to.

 

[Zeke]

All this talk about books and videos. The last trade school class I took at the local community college had me reading books and watching old out of date videos. I looked around at other classrooms and shops and they were using books and videos. Imagine learning electrical from books and videos.

 

[jgorm]

It was like pulling teeth to get a quote from anyone to do the job. I ended up doing it myself.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

I have found that many times a contractor will come and look at a job started by another contractor, tell you he'll be back to do the work, but never return becuase he doesn't want to be involved with the liability of signing off on work of unkown quality by the first contractor.

Tommy

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Good luck telling your home owners insurance if anything ever happened like a fire. I guarantee they wouldn't pay a dime knowing you personally did the electric work regardless of being allowed to and having it inspected. The bottom line is you aren't qualified to do the work. Reading forums does not make you qualified.

You might be allowed to do minor electric work but i doubt service upgrades or any work on the service is allowed.

As long as theres nothing wrong with the work code wise and its been inspected/signed off they would have a really tough time denying a claim.
If youre drilling holes and running chopped off extension cords through walls its one thing(yeah Ive seen it.),but if its been signed off on that's a totally different story.

 

[aandpdan]

Electrical inspector will not allow it, says it's because of liability. My father inlaw, and cousin are licensed electricians, uncle is retired master electrician. And none of them can pull the permit because they are not insured. I myself am very capable of doing the work, but can't pull the pemit.

Check out this application for an electrical permit. Note at the bottom of page 1.

http://www.gardner-ma.gov/Pages/GardnerMA_Building/electricalpermit2014.pdf

"OWNER’S INSURANCE WAIVER: I am aware that the Licensee does not have the liability insurance coverage normally required by law. By my signature below, I hereby waive this requirement."

It's pretty much the same form all over MA.

 

[volleyball]

The problem may be that the inspector isn't qualified to inspect. He transfers responsibility to the licensed person. Maybe you just need a different inspector from the same office.

 

[AlwaysFixingSomething]

Exactly. This is one of the biggest myths out there, but people like Always can't ever come up with a verifiable source. All they can do is repeat the same old alarmist tripe

It has been discussed before on electrical forums I belong to it's not "alarmist tripe".

Why is it so strange for an insurance company to deny a claim from faulty diy work? Who cares if it passed inspection the inspectors miss a lot of stuff trust me on that. They don't check every splice with a wire nut or every outlet to see if the screws are tight for example. All it takes is a loose wire on an outlet and you could have a fire if it's not on a AFCI circuit. People are sneaky too they hide a lot of ****.

I doubt insurance companies are going to back people who get their knowledge from garage journal and youtube But I'm sure they will back a contractor that is licensed because they have the proper training. Because odds are the contractor that has been trained will result in fewer problems. Sure the pros make mistakes everyone does but it's safe to say the DIYers make more mistakes because they lack the training.

The whole business model of an insurance company is to make money not pay out claims. Why would they take a huge risk backing unqualified people doing dangerous work? Does that make financial sense to you?

 

[volleyball]

Unless it is arson, it is hard for an insurance claim not to be paid. Insurance covers people making mistakes.
If you are a pro anything, you think amateurs are just that and don't do a good job. It affects your income and it is annoying fixing poor quality jobs but the truth is a lot of "pros" do a crappy job. Some worse than an average homeowner.

 

[Gerald O]

I'm confused...now your an electrician? Time for me to bow out of this thread it's becoming commical. Everyone is an electrician these days. Git r done i saw it online so i be qwallyified

It's not rocket surgery. Everything one needs to know can be found online. Like any craft, quality of work comes from skill, practice, and observing good examples.

 

[dfiler2]

"It's not rocket surgery" love it, I'm gonna use that.