Underground from house to shop

[SkeeterAg99]

Just finished the 24x30 pole barn and ready to get electric to it. I'm gonna do the labor and let someone qualified hook the boxes up and tie into house, but I can manage the runs. I have plenty 12-2 yellow Romeo for inside building. Gonna have one aide plugs on one breaker, other side on another breaker, 3 rows lights each row seperate switch. My question is I have one roll of 12-2 uf-b and trying to decide what I need to run from house to shop. The total run is 75 foot pretty unobstructed maybe a 45 turn around a tree. I want it to be in conduit 18 inches deep.

1. What cable should I run from house to shop and have already waiting for electrician to just tie in and hook up. I would like to have a 220 also but it's not entirely necessary.

2. Will the uf-b 12-2 I have suffice for the run in conduit, or should I run something different(heard its direct burial and can't go in conduit). I'm only familiar with standard inside runs of 12-2 and 14-2. Trying to save a dollar doing the hard labor. Any suggestions. I'm Not an electrician but I can sure do some labor.

3. I will lay some 1/4 inch pvc along with 1/2 inch and put low voltage runs for phone cable and Alarm. Couple runs Cat 5e should do for this correct?

4. Anyone recommend a panel to buy. Square d I know is good.

Let's See if pic works- here's the run 75ft about. Panel will b right behind door. U can see where my main line comes in that I just filled in with topsoil. Thanks for any insight and suggestions!

Jeremy

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Your idea to use 12-2 UF won't work. All you can carry is 120v and 20 amp.... one simple circuit to operate some lights and a receptacle. If you want to do anything at all in the shop, run a drill, shop vac, etc, you are going to need more.

I would suggest at least a 60 amp feed using three conductors plus a ground, such as 6-3 w/grd UF. It might be just as cheap to run 2-2-2-4 Mobile Home Feeder for up to 90 amps but that is overkill probably.

If you cannot afford to do it right, now, wait till you can afford it. Don't get in a rush.

Charles

 

[pattenp]

What size service do you have at the house? I agree with Charles on at least a 60A feed and you do need 3 wire plus ground to get 240V. Also UF-b cable even though rated for direct bury can be placed in conduit and I recommend conduit regardless of being direct bury cable.

 

[AllDodge]

Agree with above, want to run at least 60amp, more is always better if your house service can handle to load. Need it at least 2 feet down (check your local NEC code).

Having another conduit for low voltage and Cat cable is a good way to go. Make it as large as you like, larger is better incase you want to change things later

 

[SkeeterAg99]

The house will handle the load im pretty sure. When building last r I told everybody I would have a woodworking shop and welder within a yr so make sure it would handle it, even told the electric guys the same. I emphasized more is better. Now whether they did I don't know lol pretty sure they did though.

 

[SkeeterAg99]

I'm checking prices in both 6-3 and mobile home feeder. And Charles I wanna overkill it now so in few years im not kicking myself for having enough, so would u run the mobile home or 6/3 . I don't wanna have to do anymore trenching ask sure this won't be fun. I'll save the trenching rental fee and do myself and spend that money elsewhere. I'll check with electrician make sure it will handle the load of 90amp

 

[pattenp]

Personally I'd do the 2-2-2-4 MHF, but do you realize that the MHF has to be in conduit inside the house and pole barn.

 

[AllDodge]

With a welder your going to need 50amp 220 source, then add lights, outlets maybe compressor, your up to 100amp service easy

 

[Strouty]

6-3 will not do what you want, you are going to have to go bigger.

 

[SkeeterAg99]

I don't have a welder and couldn't weld something to save my life probably. Just thinking ahead. Let's say I didn't need the 220 and didn't put one(almost seems stupid not to since I'm gona be running wires) but just for the scenario, 6-3 would be fine?. Yes mhf would be inside both inside pole barn and house not a problem there.

 

[Syberia]

Whatever you run, I recommend putting it in conduit. I would never direct bury a cable, despite what code allows. You mention that you only want to trench things once, and I agree. Not only will a conduit protect the cable from rocks and shifting ground, but it will also make replacement easy if you ever have to.

 

[SkeeterAg99]

Sounds like I need to go the 2-2-2-4 route in conduit to shop. I just need to verify code for depth of conduit. I also don't like the idea of direct bury and had every intention of conduit.

 

[CNGsaves]

Your idea to use 12-2 UF won't work. All you can carry is 120v and 20 amp.... one simple circuit to operate some lights and a receptacle. If you want to do anything at all in the shop, run a drill, shop vac, etc, you are going to need more.

I would suggest at least a 60 amp feed using three conductors plus a ground, such as 6-3 w/grd UF. It might be just as cheap to run 2-2-2-4 Mobile Home Feeder for up to 90 amps but that is overkill probably.

If you cannot afford to do it right, now, wait till you can afford it. Don't get in a rush. Charles

^ ^ This. Do it Once & Do It Right !!

Take advice of sparky guru's like Charles in GA and PattenP . . . . run adequate wire that you won't be forever kicking yourself that you should have put in better feeder. Go with Aluminum MHF 2-2-2-4 which is around $1.50/ft. Start looking for deals on 2" conduit that you can bury the 2-2-2-4 from house to garage.

While you have trench dug deep (say or 36" or more according to AHJ), put MHF 2-2-2-4 at bottom then backfill around 12" and put in another conduit (say 1" or 1 1/2") that you will use for low voltage like CATV, security, internet, & telephone. You'll want RG6 for the CATV and several CAT5e cables for ethernet/etc. The conduit for this is not all that important as it could be continuous roll of sprinkler plastic pipe.

 

[SkeeterAg99]

Thanks cng im gonna go ahead and do the 2-2-2-4 aluminum. Ill prob come no where near using that many Amps but I'll have it if needed. The 36 inch trench on the other hand may be worth the 150 rental and I'll just do some other stuff while I have the trencher. I have the means to do it right the first time that's why I wanted yalls opinions and suggestions. Greatly appreciated. Can anyone link a good 100 amp panel with breakers to look at. Or should I let electrician supply that?

 

[AllDodge]

I would either get the same brand panel that is in your house or have the electrician do the same. On a rental I told the electrician I wanted Square D and he installed *****'s, just ticked me off, was not in writing. Good panel just not what I asked for

 

[sselander]

Check on monoprice.com or deepsurplus.com for the RG6 coax and CAT6 cable, as well the
connectors. If you can, run some extra. Doesn't hurt to check CL for the cable as well.

 

[SkeeterAg99]

Bought from monoprice all my home theater wire. Great prices. I may have enough cat 6 leftover from build for couple runs

 

[AllDodge]

Not to mix it up to much, but you could run 2-2-2 and not 2-2-2-4 with the garage being so far away. Just need to drive another ground rod at the panel. Also like everything else so long as code permits

 

[pattenp]

Not to mix it up to much, but you could run 2-2-2 and not 2-2-2-4 with the garage being so far away. Just need to drive another ground rod at the panel. Also like everything else so long as code permits

The feeder needs to be 4 wire. You need the equipment ground going back to the main panel. 2 ground rods are what you should drive at the barn for the earth ground electrode.

View media item 16967

 

[bgeery]

Darn it. I thought this thread was going to be about a tunnel from the house to the garage.

 

[AllDodge]

Got my 1990 NEC and it mentions in article 250 that if there is not a ground at the sub you can drive a ground and bond the common. Thanks for clearing that up

 

[pattenp]

Got my 1990 NEC and it mentions in article 250 that if there is not a ground at the sub you can drive a ground and bond the common. Thanks for clearing that up

1990 NEC! You need to get at least a 2011 NEC book. A lot has changed since 1990.

 

[AllDodge]

I guess, also have the 2005 NEC illustrated 3rd edition and it showed the same thing. Figured since it was the illustrated edition and not the actual NEC I would defer to you.

Might also be the thing of the word "if", that is if a subpanel does not have the ground wire coming from the main panel or is far away, that bonding and a new ground will work. Or at least that's how I read it

 

[pattenp]

Depth needs to be at least 18" to top of conduit.

 

[Aceman]

If you want to help, offer to dig the ditch for the electrician. But, let an electrician handle the rest. It only muddies the waters when the homeowner tries to do some of the work. One issue is permits.

Who would pull the permits in this case? In Oregon, homeowners can't pull permits for electrical contractors and I can't see an electrical contractor wanting to permit work done by the homeowner.

 

[SkeeterAg99]

No permits. Live in the county. No inspectors except yours truly.

 

[86turbodsl]

Do not run ethernet between buildings in ground in lightning country. The impulse of a nearby lighting strike will fry everything on both ends. Use fiber and converters on both ends.

 

[SkeeterAg99]

Never heard of that regarding Ethernet underground but I will look into that. And to answer previous post my main is 200 amp and has a sub panel. Both are eaton which I will match. So here's the question now what's difference in the ch and br panels. I'll more than likely get the ch which is what I believe the house is will check tonight again

 

[nuts4coke]

I don't wanna have to do anymore trenching ask sure this won't be fun. I'll save the trenching rental fee and do myself and spend that money elsewhere.

I'm renting a trencher for four hours this weekend and it's only gonna be 125 feet. The guy told me it would take about 15 minutes to do that. 4 hours is costing me $116. Seems like money well spent to save back breaking labor and have it done so quick... Just food for thought.

LET ME ADD: here in Florida I'm digging sandy soil with no rocks, but your situation may be different. Sometimes money IS better spent on these things then we first think. I'm sure anyone who has dug 75 feet of trench to 24" deep would tell you to rent the trencher.

 

[SkeeterAg99]

Yeah I have found other things like drainage pipes im gonna utilize one for and go ahead and pay the rental fee. Be done quick and easy plus fix drainage problems while I'm at it.

 

[DC73]

Do not run ethernet between buildings in ground in lightning country. The impulse of a nearby lighting strike will fry everything on both ends. Use fiber and converters on both ends.

This is not just a problem for underground ethernet connections. It can happen any time two or more different electrical systems are commonly connected via ethernet or other communication type cables.

For example: One tenant in a commercial office building or strip center occupies two or more spaces that were originally wired separately for different occupants, and that tenant connects those spaces with a common ethernet system.

What happens is that the lightning strike sets up a potential difference between the multiple ground rods creating high current flow through the common connection (the ethernet cable). One solution (as mentioned above) is fiber between the two spaces instead of copper wires. The other is to bond together each ground rod in the system.

DC

 

[thecj3man]

The feeder needs to be 4 wire. You need the equipment ground going back to the main panel. 2 ground rods are what you should drive at the barn for the earth ground electrode.

I just got done installing a panel in my new garage which is fed from a 200 amp disconnect at my barn. The local Inspector here in East TN told me to run 4 wire cable from the barn to the garage. He also told me not to install a ground rod at the garage unless "it would help me sleep at night", his exact words. Looking at your diagram it seems like I need to remedy this. I am setting myself up for trouble by not having the ground rods?

Thanks,
WAP

 

[Robert Duncan]

Lightning strikes on underground cabling is no joke.

My shop is about 300 feet from the house. Since this about the limit for Ethernet over copper (~100m) I pulled a 100m MM fiber duplex jumper. I run a gigabit between the main switch at the house and a distribution switch in the shop. This gives me both lightning protection and easily makes the distance at a full gigabit.

I run my TV from a Windows Media Center at the house using an Xbox as an extender across the fiber. So no need for coax.

I do have Cat5 for telephone service, but I have gas discharge tube lightning protection on the phone copper.

 

[86turbodsl]

I solved the phone issue with ip phones over the fiber.

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk

 

[bmxdad]

Four hour rental is not going to work ... get it for the full day, take your time. All it takes is one big rock or root and your four hours are gone ... been their, done that.

Also, You seem to be going with a 60 or 90amp service ... why not run #2 THHN individual wire, in 2" conduit, and bring it up to a full 100amp. You say you want a wood shop, well get that in there along with lights, compressor and a few other electronics and your buffer gets kind of small, especially if your not alone. If you have friends or co-workers turning stuff on and off you could hit your 60 or 90amp limit.

As for a panel, get bigger then you think you need. Not for the available circuits, but for the extra room that is available for the wire.

Nice build ... subscribed too.

 

[polexican23]

What a terribly misleading thread title. I was hoping to see pics of someone actually building an underground tunnel from their house to the garage.

I feel cheated.

 

[SkeeterAg99]

By wood shop that means me farting around in it with small stuff. I won't do any serious building that would require anything running at same time at that. The #2 individual will get much more expensive than the mhf. Unless im just not looking in the right places, almost be three times as much for the wire alone if I'm correct.

 

[Aceman]

So here's the question now what's difference in the ch and br panels. I'll more than likely get the ch which is what I believe the house is will check tonight again

The CH is a copper bussed panel and in my opinion much higher quality than an aluminum bussed BR panel.

 

[jvitez]

As the song says, "Let's start at the very beginning, it's a very good place to start."

Dear SkeeterAg99: please do a load calc.

You've gotten excellent information from very knowledgeable people here, but based on your "me farting around with small stuff" post, maybe you only need 30 amp service, or 150? The only way to know is simple math.

Think about all the things you'd want to do in your shop, now and anything in the future. Write down all the electricity using items on your list. Find out the power usage of each machine, in WATTS not amps. Add up all the wattage of everything. Divide by 240. That's the minimum ampacity you'll need to supply to your shop. One proviso is that anything that can be "on" for more than 3 hours is a continuous load, and needs to be sized at 125% of it's actual power usage.

For example:

T8 fluorescent lights-- 1000 watts.
60 gallon air compressor-- 3000 watts
electric heater--1500 watts
table saw--2500 watts
dust collector--1500 watts

Total wattage is 9500, divided by 240 volts=39.5 amps. The next standard size up is 40 watts, so you could use 8/3 UF cable with a 40 amp breaker in your main panel. Your lights will easily be on for more than 3 hours, as can your heater and dust collector, but not your compressor or table saw, so the calculated numbers are:

lights--1250 watts
compressor--3000
heater--1875
table saw--2500
dust collector--1875

Calculated total is 10,500 watts/240=43.75 amps. Round up to the next most common size breaker and size your cable from that.

(PattenP, Charles (in GA), Aceman, etc, please correct me if my continuous load calcs are off as I'm under the CEC not NEC and this is my reading of our codes.)

But to the OP, please do some future planning and a little basic math, and then the rest of your decisions are based on fact, not conjecture.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Darn it. I thought this thread was going to be about a tunnel from the house to the garage.

This time of the year, that would be a great idea!!!