sorensen1987
Member
What is a good reliable brand that won't break the bank? SPI? Fowler?
Need advice: micrometer
- Thread starter sorensen1987
- Start date
I've got a 0-3" set of ratcheting Fowlers. They are a middle of the road Mic. I find them to be repeatable, and surprisingly well made. A good value in my book.
What exactly will you be measuring, and to what level of accuracy are you looking to obtain?
What exactly will you be measuring, and to what level of accuracy are you looking to obtain?
devoncoolman
Well-known member
It depends on the toleremces your working with. For general automotive work a fowler will work. If your machining go with starrett or mitutoyo.
I got an insane deal on 1-2 and 2-3 Mitutoyo's on ebay, they were used but the only wear was on the original wood box which was beat all to hell and had the foam torn out of it. The mic's were in perfect condition. My 0-1 is a Pratt & Whitney also bought used. All of them passed calibration and are used on aircraft components every day of the week.
It really depends on your tolerances though, one guy in the shop used Fowlers and never had an issue.
The shop even has some no name Polish mics who seem to work fine as well. If you work with people using them every day, then you might just aim for one of those brands, if its just for you, I don't notice much of a difference.
It really depends on your tolerances though, one guy in the shop used Fowlers and never had an issue.
The shop even has some no name Polish mics who seem to work fine as well. If you work with people using them every day, then you might just aim for one of those brands, if its just for you, I don't notice much of a difference.
G_P
Well-known member
Starrett's are great and can frequently be found at pawn shops and used tool stores at reasonable prices.
toolchaser
Well-known member
I use a set of 1"- 6" SPI mics I bought from a co -worker. Good value, good feel, but I have a 0-1" Starrett for most of my work
OP
sorensen1987
Member
I'm going to be using them for motorcycle measurements. Pistons, cylinders, valves, etc.
Kevin54
MEMBER EMERITUS
Verniers may be handier, but verniers are not accurate if you have to work with close tolerances. Verniers are a reference only piece of equipment
As far as mics, Starrett, B&S, Mitutoyo, Fowler. You can get used ones, but make sure you get a "standard" to check them. Also try to find a pair with carbide tips. What size are you looking for, as I may have a spare I may sell for a reasonable price.
You are going to need a few different tools if you plan on measuring external (piston) and internal (bores). At least a micrometer of appropriate range and a snap or telescoping gauge. What size range do you need? Micrometers will only measure in 1" steps. So to measure a .5" diameter shaft and a 1.5" diameter shaft will require 2 different micrometers, a 0-1" and a 1-2".
Mitutoyo, Lufkin, B&S, Starrett, Tesa, used off ebay can be had reasonably.
Mitutoyo, Lufkin, B&S, Starrett, Tesa, used off ebay can be had reasonably.
I recently bought 4 Starretts on ebay
keep an eye out & you'll find a deal.
keep an eye out & you'll find a deal.
bob15
Well-known member
Brown and Sharpe, non slant.
I recommend Starrett 436 used on eBay. These aren't Starrett's best models. But they have been essentially unchanged for 100 years. I like them because they are very easy to read. I find Starrett's markings to be the best in the industry. Even now, nobody makes a ruler as easy to read as Starrett. You can pay $25 or less for a used S#436.
I see no advantage in buying new second quality mics when high quality used miss are available cheaper. Yes you will need standards for the sizes over 1" Mitutoyo stds come up on eBay quite often and can be recommended.
If you want the very best, most accurate and easiest to use, get the Mitutoyo digitals. Advantage for what you are doing is being able to switch between inch and mm and also checking the axes of a cylinder. You check on axis, ignore the reading and zero the mic, then check the other axis (or axes) and the mic reads the difference (e.g. -.00200" indicating you are oval by .002". This saves you some math.
You will need a 3-4", you may need a 2-3" depending on your engine.
I see no advantage in buying new second quality mics when high quality used miss are available cheaper. Yes you will need standards for the sizes over 1" Mitutoyo stds come up on eBay quite often and can be recommended.
If you want the very best, most accurate and easiest to use, get the Mitutoyo digitals. Advantage for what you are doing is being able to switch between inch and mm and also checking the axes of a cylinder. You check on axis, ignore the reading and zero the mic, then check the other axis (or axes) and the mic reads the difference (e.g. -.00200" indicating you are oval by .002". This saves you some math.
You will need a 3-4", you may need a 2-3" depending on your engine.
http://harleytechtalk.org/htt/index.php?topic=43362.0
I'm attaching the above link to help frame the the response below.
If the OP is asking for a 'good' mic then it is obvious to me that he has little to no experience is using one or what the readings may mean. The above link is a discussion on lifter clearances in a HD motor. They are talking in the .0008" clearances range. Your not going to determine these numbers with a standard .001" mic, and damn sure not with a sliding caliper.
So Op your going to have to figure out what your doing with the micrometer tool you want. To what tolerance are you working and the tool needed to achieve what you want. Its one thing to measure something to determine if it is a 3.85" diameter vs a 3.95" diameter. It is a whole different league to determine if something is 3.8503 vs 3.8506. Where are you in this spectrum? Post #4 above talks about ordering lifters that are oversized by .0002" increments. For you to determine what size you may need is going to take something of a bit higher level that you are wanting, as well as a clean temperature controlled shop.
Good luck on your endeavor. Been there done that and I have determined some things are better left to the experts even though I think I may be one.
lg
no neat sig line
OP
sorensen1987
Member
I know that I'm no expert. And I don't go around saying I am. I'm trying to learn. I'm currently attending MMI (motorcycle mechanics institute) all I'm trying to do is get a set of decent micrometers that are fairly accurate to practice using them and get efficient enough to where I feel comfortable. I have over a year left of school, so I won't be measuring cylinders or any parts for that matter in quite some time. Thanks for your help buddy.
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If your school has a library then check out if they have any engine machining text books you can check out. Most textbooks I came in contact with had a section on measurement tools and how to use them. If not try the public library or a used bookstore. Another term to check out is Metrology which the field of measuring .
I was in your boots in 1970, in a automotive technology course. Third term we had to tear down and old engine, document all the measurements of the moving parts, and put it back together and make it run. Part of the course was to recommend what parts were out of spec and the whether to replace or recondition the part.
As life progressed I moved from automotive to hi-tech industrial where things were measured in micro inches and sometimes angstroms. Those things will tend to bend your head and warp you to what a thousands of an inch is.
lg
no neat sig line
I'm not an engine builder or motorcycle expert. But I know more than a person should about metrology. While I agree with Larry 100%, sometimes the fine details he is talking about can overwhelm a person. Everybody has to start somewhere.
Sounds like you have time. Start searching eBay for the old Starretts. There are instructions on the web about how to disassemble, clean, lube and adjust them. You will find in time that cylinders and valve bores don't wear circumfrencially. They go egg shape. You will also learn that regular mics can't measure super well in the tenths (.000X"). You will also learn that there are techniques to using these tools,, including ways to hold them, that effect their precision. But you need to learn all that for yourself.
I've made my suggestions for mics, brand and model numbers. One more bug in your ear- mic stand. You can look out for one of those. One more suggestion- any time you need to measure tenths, a good amount of technique will come into play. See if you can find one or two miscellaneous gage blocks for cheap. Use these to practice with. See what it takes to actually achieve the blocks' dimensions with your mic. This will really build your confidence in your measuring.
On the flip side, beautiful digital mics like I have build your confidence with all those crisp numbers on the display. But they are a false confidence. You still need experience and technique to use digital, but many don't agree because they see all those digits. So, my advice is, start with the basics. While Larry is right, don't worry about that now. Google threads on practical machinist.com for more information.
Sounds like you have time. Start searching eBay for the old Starretts. There are instructions on the web about how to disassemble, clean, lube and adjust them. You will find in time that cylinders and valve bores don't wear circumfrencially. They go egg shape. You will also learn that regular mics can't measure super well in the tenths (.000X"). You will also learn that there are techniques to using these tools,, including ways to hold them, that effect their precision. But you need to learn all that for yourself.
I've made my suggestions for mics, brand and model numbers. One more bug in your ear- mic stand. You can look out for one of those. One more suggestion- any time you need to measure tenths, a good amount of technique will come into play. See if you can find one or two miscellaneous gage blocks for cheap. Use these to practice with. See what it takes to actually achieve the blocks' dimensions with your mic. This will really build your confidence in your measuring.
On the flip side, beautiful digital mics like I have build your confidence with all those crisp numbers on the display. But they are a false confidence. You still need experience and technique to use digital, but many don't agree because they see all those digits. So, my advice is, start with the basics. While Larry is right, don't worry about that now. Google threads on practical machinist.com for more information.
I've got an original tank from a 50's puch allstate. it's no longer chrome and creme, it was blasted and painted light blue. Interested?
Dave455
Well-known member
If you're looking at a conventional micrometer then bear in mind that, unlike dial Verniers and suchlike, the micrometer is a simple tool, and there isn't really much to go wrong (unless some ape has used it as a G clamp).
So.... rather than buying a cheap or mid priced mic I'd look at buying one from a decent maker, but used! These tools have been manufactured in huge numbers for decades, and they remain relatively unchanged, so don't hesitate to get an old one if it looks to be in good condition!
Search eBay for Starrett (top U.S. make) Moore and Wright (British equivalent) and anything Swiss.
I should add that I'm mega fussy about my tools, especially measuring equipment, but have never bought a Micrometer new! Some were family owned, and still work fine, some I've purchased secondhand from dealers (a good option as you get a chance to inspect the tool) and one or two have come from eBay!
If you buy from eBay I'd avoid any tool that has chipped paint or looks like it's been bashed around. There are enough decent tools on there so you don't have to. If a tool comes in a case then it's probably been stored there and is likely to be decent! If all the above checks out then I'd bid up to a third of new price, and probably get it for a lot less!
So.... rather than buying a cheap or mid priced mic I'd look at buying one from a decent maker, but used! These tools have been manufactured in huge numbers for decades, and they remain relatively unchanged, so don't hesitate to get an old one if it looks to be in good condition!
Search eBay for Starrett (top U.S. make) Moore and Wright (British equivalent) and anything Swiss.
I should add that I'm mega fussy about my tools, especially measuring equipment, but have never bought a Micrometer new! Some were family owned, and still work fine, some I've purchased secondhand from dealers (a good option as you get a chance to inspect the tool) and one or two have come from eBay!
If you buy from eBay I'd avoid any tool that has chipped paint or looks like it's been bashed around. There are enough decent tools on there so you don't have to. If a tool comes in a case then it's probably been stored there and is likely to be decent! If all the above checks out then I'd bid up to a third of new price, and probably get it for a lot less!
Steinmetz
Well-known member
B&S was OK until they discovered plastic. Slant lines introduced the ".025 error".
I bought some Lufkin micrometers (and tools) just when they were getting out of the machinist tool business. I was just out of high school, I needed some tools and they were deeply discounted. Top quality, and I still use them.
That and Verniers can be difficult to read. Precisely why they started making them with dial and/or digital read outs. Calipers are more susceptible to chip and grit damage as well.
Another vote for Starrett, Brown & Sharpe, or Mitutoyo. Getting a standard along with your micrometer is always a must.
bareass172
Well-known member
Echo others sentiments - I have a mix of Mitutoyo and Fowler all got no Ebay for great prices and I just grab what I need based on the job at hand. The Fowler works really well for the price on most stuff, if I need it to more specific I get out the Mitutoyo. As was mentioned, check them when you get them before they go into service. Since you don't need them right away, time is on your side to patiently watch Ebay and wait for a great deal to come your way.
Yes they can. Maybe it's just the tool & die machinist in me. Learning to calibrate should be micrometer 101. And each should come with a spanner wrench.
>> http://info.starrett.com/blog/bid/1...and-care-for-your-Starrett-outside-micrometer
I hope this isn't hijacking, but for general engine rebuilds (no insane HP requirements, maybe mild street performance) what sort of tolerances do you need? Right now I have a Mitutoyo 0-1" mic and an SPI 0-6" vernier caliper, each with I believe .001" tolerance. Good enough for a stock rebuild?
The SPI came with a calibration cert from Enco, and the Mitutoyo was checked beforehand. Both have seen very little use.
I assume I'll need a telescoping mic and...what else?
The SPI came with a calibration cert from Enco, and the Mitutoyo was checked beforehand. Both have seen very little use.
I assume I'll need a telescoping mic and...what else?
Tinner
Well-known member
This is excellent advice. I put together a set of 236 0-6", plus a 230 0-1" for about $180. Took about 6 weeks searching on eBay. These were all nice clean instruments with some owner marks and paint wear. All have clean chrome and crisp markings. All were dead nuts on, except the 4-5" which needed a slight adjustment.
I went online and learned how to CLA and inspect for wear. None had significant wear and all are smooth as silk now. The metrology guy who services our shop sold me a set of standards for $35, mixed brands, Starrett, B&S and Mitutoyo.
This was one of the best tool deals I've ever made.
Kevin54
MEMBER EMERITUS
I have a Starrett 436 0-1 mic that I bought probably 37 years ago, and it was used when I bought it. Today it is still the goto mic when I have to measure something under 1", or maybe a few thousandths over an 1". It was calibrated on a regular basis, and was never to be found out of cal. meaning that it never needed adjusting.
And one thing about a micrometer, and especially an 0-1.....if you use one daily, it actually becomes part of you. I find that a mic becomes a personal thing when it comes to tolerance. The mic will develop a feel to you that you won't get out of a different brand. A lot of people like a digital mic, a lot of people like a ratcheting mic. My 436 is ratcheting, but I never use it because I developed the feel of the mic. At one time, when I was getting my mic calibrated, a new person calibrated it and calibrated it to the ratchet. I recalibrated it to MY feel. Some may understand, and a lot won't, but when you develop that "feel" and the mic is a part of you, you know just how much to turn the thimble when checking something. If you use the ratchet, my mic will show .0003 off. But that .0003 is my "feel zone". I finally bought another mic and always sent it to calibration but never used it. My old 436, I calibrated it myself, and I never let anyone use it. I let them use the calibrated mic. And with the .0003 off using the ratchet, my parts were always dead nuts on.
Like I said, you develop a certain bond with a tool, and only you know how that tool works and acts. So for something almost 40 years in MY possession, and no telling how old it was when I bought it, that says quite a bit for a brand name tool. Plus the fact that Starrett's are easy to read. I bought a complete of 0-6" mics a few years back, Chinese brand, and they are a ***** to read, They are dead on to the Standards, but they are not easy to read because they have faint lines, and IIRC without getting up and pulling them out, they have slanted lines, which I absolutely hate. Very easy to be off by .025.
I also don't like digital because it's very easy to be .0005 off depending on that "feel zone", and you can be either +/- or dead on. When you have to work in tenths on a part, .0005 may as well be a 1/4".
Like I said, some will totally get what I'm talking about, and others won't. And again.....dial calipers or verniers.....Reference only. Nothing pissed me off more than to see another toolmaker making a part on the lathe, or the mill for that matter, and using a set of calipers to precisely measure something. And using a set of telescoping gages, then checking them with calipers
You cannot precisely measure things with calipers just due to the design of them. Just a little bit of thumb pressure can change them by .002 VERY easily.So when measuring inside, and when measuring outside.....use the proper tools. That is why the tools were developed. A carpenter working with warped wood and such may say "that's close enough". A machinist always has tolerances. A Toolmaker has 1/10 of those tolerances. ALWAYS strive to put things dead nuts on, and become on with the tools and gages you work with.
When you get them, there is nothing wrong with buying used, brand name equipment. But when you get them, learn them. Find that "feel zone" that is a natural feel for you. And don't loan the tools that you have became a part of. I've watched other machinist use a mic almost like a "C" clamp and torque the **** out of them.
Also if you purchase mics, and you are going to use them on a regular basis....wherever you use them the most, try to work on a rubber mat, stall mat, or something similar. Because someday you will drop them. I don't care how careful one is, at some point in time it will happen, There is a huge difference between hitting concrete, and hitting rubber. I've been there on a few occasions.
oldgoat
Well-known member
I would look for digital mics since there is many places or going to metric. Having the one that does both is a plus to me. I like Starrett mics and still have the original 0-1 I bought in 67. In my case the company made us take our tools home and bought tools and mics for each machine. We ended up with Mitutoya digital and I can't say that I like them. More bulky and I've had the digital readout change on me for no apparent reason. Kind of ignore it and go by the reading on the thimble. I go SPI dial calipers and can't say I've had any trouble with them either all though I wouldn't want to bet the farm on a close tolerance dim. either. In addition to the caution about dropping them I would also advise not to loan out. Did that before with my Lufkin depth mic and the guy brought it back saying for some reason it just didn't want to turn anymore. I still have it for checking depths of holes when woodworking, but it taught me a lesson.
I agree. I have the new mitutoyo 293-348 and the 2 and 3" versions. They are very nice, but I still reach for my old 436. I lik the curved frame, feel, and easy to read markings.
My 1-2" 436 was issued to my Uncle by the U.S. Army as part of his tool kit. He served in India during WWII. I touched up the frame with a little black testers paint and it still works as good as ever.
My 1-2" 436 was issued to my Uncle by the U.S. Army as part of his tool kit. He served in India during WWII. I touched up the frame with a little black testers paint and it still works as good as ever.
zakmartin
Well-known member
My calipers and micrometers are all made by Central Tools (COO is USA). They're all analog and have worked very well for me over the years. About a year ago, realizing that my eyesight's starting to get bad with age, I went to the other side and bought a digital caliper (model Mitutoyo 500-196-30 (COO is Japan)). I've been extremely happy with it and have found it to be my go-to measuring tool now.
here's a few, I didn't measure it but you can see the size reference sitting on the stool.
Attachments
markbugno
Well-known member
Starrett and Brown & Sharpe are top brands, and there are plenty of deals on used ones on eBay. The absolute best combination of value and quality in vintage machinist tools is Lufkin. Bar none. Most of their tools are as good as starrett or B and S. You can't miss with these three brands and it's not hard to find deals on any of them.