Entire circuit must be brought up to current code when replacing outlets?

[checkthisout]

Why are Siemens breakers in a GE panel? Unless they are UL classified for GE panels, they have no business there.

Please don't ruin my day.

 

[Rock knocker]

Anybody representing the consumer? Is it a cross section of the American population, or a skewed pool of interests? Is a senior officer at Eaton corporation or General Electric unbiased as to what benefits their company?

I'd say the inspectors, professors and firemen on the NFPA NEC are. How far do you want to push this? Do we need soccer moms on each committee?

 

[Norcal]

AFCI's, Bubble covers, are a couple of NEC requirements that were added to the benefit of manufacturers.

 

[Rock knocker]

I believe your a sparky, so I'll accept your theory.

The other couple guys seem to be of the tin hat persuasion

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

AFCI's, Bubble covers, are a couple of NEC requirements that were added to the benefit of manufacturers.

Ive had more than 1 discussion with electrical inspectors over tamper proof/weather resistant gfis and in use covers,Like I always tell them we should just wrap ourselves in bubble wrap and sit in the middle of the room.

 

[pepi]

Right on. Why notify the government to replace a few outlets?

Yes, and good point every time I want to make changes to things. I always make sure I call the government and have them look over my shoulder..

Some people are so brain washed it is unbelievable, the government could not fight its way out of a paper bag today.

 

[sberry]

I just had to have an entrance inspection and did everything I could to make sure it wasn't obvious I had rewired the rest of the house,,, ha

 

[wyliesdiesels]

It really doesn't matter what the code is. It's the inspector that you need to satisfy. You could ask for clarification while citing the relevant code but but it's usually quicker, cheaper and less stressful to just comply with their interpretation.

Its statements like these that make my blood boil!

Inspectors are suppose to inspect to code and local amendments.

If an inspector tells u to do something that is NOT to code, then u challenge it. U dont give in to them and let them walk all over you...

Just a side note - you ONLY use ONE GFI plug; the first one in the circuit (as per Straightupmad's post above) Everything downstream of it is GFI'd. If you put 2 in it will defeat the GFI.

I don't think I've pulled a permit to replace a receptacle. That seems kind of overkill.

Awww no. Explain to me how the GFCI function would be defeated? U do know how a GFCI functions right? Having a GFCI feed another GFCI is just a waste of money.

And outlets downstream of a GFCI arent necessarily protected. It all depends on how its hooked up in the GFCI j box....

Then, there are the "gray" areas to deal with. When we were looking at a house to buy we found one that had been "lipsticked" to the max, with new windows, doors, woodwork, paint, cabinets, on and on....

The home inspector passed all of the electrical. The house had all new white switches, outlets, fixtures and new GFCI's where needed.... As we walked through the house with the realtor I thought to myself, cool, this old house has ALL new electrical in it...

Every outlet tested o.k. so the old romex must have had a grounding conductor in it ? Right ? The flipper had installed all new devices in the house but, did not update any wiring or the 1959 electrical service it had....

Who was to catch him making the upgrades on devices and not upgrading the old wiring/service ? Was he going to call a electrical inspector in ...on his own flip ? Noooo freakin' way.. What he did is happening out here in a house somewhere EVERYDAY .... and then put up for sale. jmo

Ive seen houses like this. Its disgusting! U pull a 3 prong outlet and discover old K+T 2 wire wiring. Putting in 3 wire outlets on a 2-wire system is a MAJOR NO-NO! I had the misfortune of renting a house that had this done! Pain in the ***. I ended up grounding some of the outlets so my surge protectors and UPSes had grounding.

Home inspectors are not code inspectors, & in a lot of cases are worthless.

Houses sold by "flippers" should be required to disclose it in the real estate disclosures required by many States as a defect.

I disagree here. What's wrong with replacing the ratty old outlets but not upgrading the wiring?

The bank's inspector should have noted that none of the grounds in the outlets were functional.

Whats wrong with that? Gee if the previous outlets were 2-wire NO GROUNDING CONDUCTOR/EGC and theyre replaced with 3-wire outlets, u dont see anything wrong with that?

That's how he got ya,around here when you open walls it puts you into whatever the current code is.

As well as if the permitted work is either over $500 or $1000(cant remember which), then youre required to put in interconnected AC powered smoke alarms...

OP have u checked to make sure u dont have to do this?

I put the 3 in that he stated we needed. Looks like I got room for 2 more.

I think they call this a split buss panel? The upper part is always hot and the range, dryer and a couple baseboard heating loops are there. The rest is isolated by a 100 amp breaker.

I assume I have the slots but I assume the upper part of the panel is off limits to 110 volts breakers????

View media item 50123

UGG split bus panels are a PITA!

So were the grounds jumped to the neutral on the outlets to make them look legit when testing them?

If i got a dollar for everytime Ive discovered this on a service call Id be rich!

It is all about perception I guess and doing what is right. A person makes new just about every aspect of a 1959 model home that is easily visible to the suspect buyer. Then, leaves the 1959 electrical system in it, the 1959 plumbing IE: cast iron drains and steel pipes, galvanized water pipes in it...

It is called "lipsticking" a home for resale whether it is done by the PO or an investor as a flip. If the suspect (prospective) buyer does not get a sharp inspector or knows nothing about the aspects of home construction/mechanical/electrical components... then they are the ones that get taken. I for one, could not sleep at night knowing that I had "lipsticked" a house and had left the 1959 electrical/plumbing systems in it. Each to their own I guess. jmo

Ive seen this done many times! Sad and disgusting!

Please don't ruin my day.

Youre day will be more ruined if u have an issue in that panel because of the non listed breakers or if its discovered. GE breakers are still made and available so go get 'em and replace them.

Ive had more than 1 discussion with electrical inspectors over tamper proof/weather resistant gfis and in use covers,Like I always tell them we should just wrap ourselves in bubble wrap and sit in the middle of the room.

 

[checkthisout]

If an inspector tells u to do something that is NOT to code, then u challenge it. U dont give in to them and let them walk all over you...

So you're a sparky? Should I challenge his assertion that replacing the outlets means I have to upgrade to AFCI's or is his assertion correct?

Whats wrong with that? Gee if the previous outlets were 2-wire NO GROUNDING CONDUCTOR/EGC and theyre replaced with 3-wire outlets, u dont see anything wrong with that?.

No, I would rather have pretty 3 prong outlets without a functioning ground than ugly old 2 prong outlets....as long as I was aware that the ground was non-functional.

Youre day will be more ruined if u have an issue in that panel because of the non listed breakers or if its discovered. Siemens breakers are still made and available so go get 'em and replace them.

It's a 1971 GE panel. I put the Seimens breakers in because they fit and had both arc and ground fault built into them. I didn't know until that you couldn't use different brand breakers in a panel. I dropped another $120.00 and replaced them with ****** GE arc fault only breakers today. None of the local supply houses or Home Centers carry the GE Arc fault/GFCI breakers and can't even be ordered online. GE shows it as a product on their main page but no one carries it.

I'm ******* pissed that I can't use the Seimens dual function breakers and wasted $120 bucks. Guess I can sell the Seimens breakers on EBAY.

I'm also betting that seimens makes the non-available arc/ground fault breakers for GE and that nothing is different other then the labeling.

 

[checkthisout]

To the OP, the inspector stated this requirement at it is in the most current NEC (Section 210.12), so if your area is under the 2014 NEC, it is technically required. Any circuit that is replaced, modified, or extended in areas that require AFCIs under 210.12 shall have AFCI protection.




AFCI protection can also be met by installing a AFCI receptacle as the most up stream receptacle.

Just as an example: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-...AFCI-Receptacle-White-R02-AFTR1-0KW/204290242

Thanks for this post. Let me reiterate one more to make sure you know what I mean.

I took care of the AFCI on the circuits I modified I.E. moved the outlet, installed new outlet etc.

What the inspector said was if I replace just the outlets I.E. put pretty new white receptacles in or switches, I have to update that circuit with AFCI.

So what he/you/the code is saying is that new/replacement plugs count as a circuit modification?

 

[Mustang51js]

I deal with different inspectors all the time and never had one bring up about adding afci when just replacing outlets,and switches,in fact had one tell me I didn't have to get a permit. You have two options,change the breakers to afci if you can,or wait till after you get your final inspections from the other stuff then change out the switches and outlets after.

 

[checkthisout]

I deal with different inspectors all the time and never had one bring up about adding afci when just replacing outlets,and switches,in fact had one tell me I didn't have to get a permit. You have two options,change the breakers to afci if you can,or wait till after you get your final inspections from the other stuff then change out the switches and outlets after.

After doing some research, 2014 NEC does in fact require that any OUTLETS that you change must be replaced with a plug(s) that have arc fault protection.

Different areas adopt different years/areas of the code so this may or may not be required where you live.

Neat huh?

If the circuit itself is modified I.E. new boxes, moved boxes etc, then you must install an arc fault breaker

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

After doing some research, 2014 NEC does in fact require that any OUTLETS that you change must be replaced with a plug(s) that have arc fault protection.

Different areas adopt different years/areas of the code so this may or may not be required where you live.

Neat huh?

If the circuit itself is modified I.E. new boxes, moved boxes etc, then you must install an arc fault breaker

Do you know what article its under?

 

[checkthisout]

Do you know what article its under?

Assuming you are asking about just changing the outlets?

406.4(d)

(4) Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection. Where a receptacle outlet is supplied by a branch circuit that requires arc-fault circuit-interrupter protection as specified elsewhere in this Code, a replacement receptacle at this outlet shall be one of the following:
(1) A listed outlet branch-circuit type arc-fault circuit-interrupter receptacle
(2) A receptacle protected by a listed outlet branch-circuit type arc-fault circuit-interrupter type receptacle
(3) A receptacle protected by a listed combination type arc-fault circuit-interrupter type circuit breaker




So, as stated earlier in the thread. I can pretty up the crusty old outlets with new ones so long as they are tamper-proof and the outlet or one upstream is AFCI.

Instead of getting 10 outlets for $9.99, they are now $21.00 for the 10 pack plus the cost of the $32.00 AFCI outlet.

 

[BikerDad]

IMO, no member or company that writes rules should benefit monetarily from the implementation of said rule. The temptation is just too strong to represent self instead of the general well being.

That's a great idea, except....

The people who know the most about any given subject are generally those WORKING on a daily basis with the subject. Regulatory capture is a problem, so is regulation by dumbasses who haven't got a f'ing clue, especially when those dumbasses are activists.

 

[Mustang51js]

Assuming you are asking about just changing the outlets?

406.4(d)

(4) Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection. Where a receptacle outlet is supplied by a branch circuit that requires arc-fault circuit-interrupter protection as specified elsewhere in this Code, a replacement receptacle at this outlet shall be one of the following:
(1) A listed outlet branch-circuit type arc-fault circuit-interrupter receptacle
(2) A receptacle protected by a listed outlet branch-circuit type arc-fault circuit-interrupter type receptacle
(3) A receptacle protected by a listed combination type arc-fault circuit-interrupter type circuit breaker




So, as stated earlier in the thread. I can pretty up the crusty old outlets with new ones so long as they are tamper-proof and the outlet or one upstream is AFCI.

Instead of getting 10 outlets for $9.99, they are now $21.00 for the 10 pack plus the cost of the $32.00 AFCI outlet.

That code is for new construction. You have existing wires that you aren't touching so that shouldn't apply. This is one of those times where it depends on how the inspector interprets the code. If that's what he wants and you don't want to waste time then I would put the arc faults

 

[checkthisout]

That code is for new construction. You have existing wires that you aren't touching so that shouldn't apply.

If it's for new construction, why does it say "Replacement Receptacle"

(4) Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection. Where a receptacle outlet is supplied by a branch circuit that requires arc-fault circuit-interrupter protection as specified elsewhere in this Code, a replacement receptacle at this outlet shall be one of the following:

 

[Mustang51js]

Just install the afci breakers,instead of arguing with everyone about it. It seems your set on it anyway,it doesn't hurt but just trying to save you some money

 

[checkthisout]

Just install the afci breakers,instead of arguing with everyone about it. It seems your set on it anyway,it doesn't hurt but just trying to save you some money

You said something that appeared to contradict the information I had acquired over the last few days and I want to make sure things are being done correctly.

 

[checkthisout]

Here is my last question.

Do all the AFCI's have to be grouped in one place or can I use AFCI breakers in the panel for some circuits and AFCI outlets to protect others?

I know disconnects I.E. breakers must be grouped but I'm unsure about this.

 

[ripperd]

No, I would rather have pretty 3 prong outlets without a functioning ground than ugly old 2 prong outlets....as long as I was aware that the ground was non-functional.

This line of thinking is dead wrong and probably a big reason why codes exist.

Your babysitter comes over, and doesn't know better. They plug in some equipment that requires a ground and it smokes. Or, you sell the house and forget to disclose to the buyers that your outlet covers are lying to them, and the grounds are non-functional. I would be pissed if I found this out after the fact.

Just because YOU know, doesn't mean everyone else does.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Just install the afci breakers,instead of arguing with everyone about it. It seems your set on it anyway,it doesn't hurt but just trying to save you some money

Ummm hes not arguing. Hes trying to understand the code. Im on 2011 so i havent bothered delving into 2014 but it appears to me that since it says REPLACEMENT receptacle, that would mean anything other than new construction. I think YOU are the one misinterpreting the code here...

You said something that appeared to contradict the information I had acquired over the last few days and I want to make sure things are being done correctly.

Agreed!

Here is my last question.

Do all the AFCI's have to be grouped in one place or can I use AFCI breakers in the panel for some circuits and AFCI outlets to protect others?

I know disconnects I.E. breakers must be grouped but I'm unsure about this.

No, i dont see any reason why they would have to be...

This line of thinking is dead wrong and probably a big reason why codes exist.

Your babysitter comes over, and doesn't know better. They plug in some equipment that requires a ground and it smokes. Or, you sell the house and forget to disclose to the buyers that your outlet covers are lying to them, and the grounds are non-functional. I would be pissed if I found this out after the fact.

Just because YOU know, doesn't mean everyone else does.

I agree with everything u said EXCEPT whats in bold. Please explain to me how a piece of equipment will smoke if it is connected to an improperly grounded outlet? That doesnt make ANY sense : Do know what the purpose of an EGC/ground is?

 

[ard]

It really doesn't matter what the code is. It's the inspector that you need to satisfy. .

I see this stated a lot....

I had a disagreement with my local inspector of a solar install. Decided I wasnt in a huge rush to finish and took it to the mat. Wound up with the head of the local building department, guy who reports to the Board of Supervisors. I explained to him that I would rather work this out, but would be happy to get infront of the BoS as this kind of chicken spit Napoleon complex stuff is what makes taxpayers nuts... he called me back next day, said 'call for your inspection today after 3 and you will be first in the AM'.

While there may be times where the inspector is making some judgement call, there are times when they are flat wrong- why bend over?

it did add 3 weeks to the project...

 

[Mustang51js]

^ try telling that to the homeowner. You may be right but in the end the homeowner won't be happy having his house delayed by 3 weeks because you want to ague with the inspector. So that's why I usually just do what they want and keep it in mind what they like for the future.

 

[ard]

^ I was the homeowner in that case.

Agree, if you are a contractor you have other constraints.

My point was about that narrow comment...."code doesnt matter it's what the inspector says"

 

[aczlan]

No, I would rather have pretty 3 prong outlets without a functioning ground than ugly old 2 prong outlets....as long as I was aware that the ground was non-functional.

Or, you could get pretty new 2 prong outlets and not run the risk of confusing anyone: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000GAX61Y/?tag=atomicindus08-20 (Cooper 736W).

Aaron Z

 

[Norcal]

Or, you could get pretty new 2 prong outlets and not run the risk of confusing anyone: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000GAX61Y/?tag=atomicindus08-20 (Cooper 736W).

Aaron Z

A) They are not tamper resistant, so not really code compliant to use.

B) 2-wire not avail. in "Decora" style.

3) A grounding type receptacle may be used if a GFCI is used & installed per the requirements of 406.4(D)2(c). My NEC copy will not allow me to copy & paste the relevant text.

 

[aczlan]

A) They are not tamper resistant, so not really code compliant to use.

B) 2-wire not avail. in "Decora" style.

3) A grounding type receptacle may be used if a GFCI is used & installed per the requirements of 406.4(D)2(c). My NEC copy will not allow me to copy & paste the relevant text.

Good points, I had forgotten about putting a GFCI first in a string of three prong outlets with only two wires.

Aaron Z

 

[VHF]

Good points, I had forgotten about putting a GFCI first in a string of three prong outlets with only two wires.

Just don't forget about putting the "NO EQUIPMENT GROUND" sticker on those outlets!