attn. dewalt: how to keep and make your cordless users happy

[rslaback]

simple answer. put the circuitry in the adapter. if it fits in the tool it will fit in the adapter. some may argue on cost but i dispute that also. the tools with the circuitry in them are not appreciably more expensive than tools without it. same thing with batteries. if the circuit is not in the batteries then dewalt should be quite a bit cheaper than mfg's who have the circuitry in the battery. i don't believe that is the case.

you caught me mid-edit. I did include the possibility of putting in the adapter upon edit.

Dewalt absolutely wants you to buy new batteries. It would be stupid of them not to. My warning was just in case anybody plans to make their own homemade adapter.

The only other issue I can think of is that Dewalt may put different circuitry in the tool depending on the draw aspects. For example the draw difference between a work light and a 1/2" impact.

 

[Ign]

Am I the only one who saw this Dewalt to SnapOn adapter? I thought the board would blow up but no mention yet.

http://professional-power-tool-guid...y-adapter-greatest-tool-invention-ever-maybe/

 

[sk farmer]

you caught me mid-edit. I did include the possibility of putting in the adapter upon edit.

Dewalt absolutely wants you to buy new batteries. It would be stupid of them not to. My warning was just in case anybody plans to make their own homemade adapter.

The only other issue I can think of is that Dewalt may put different circuitry in the tool depending on the draw aspects. For example the draw difference between a work light and a 1/2" impact.

i think we are on the same page. if there was an adaptor available. i would buy the first one and ten more because i know i could have them sold by the end of the day. if it was priced at something under 100 dollars i could swing by every job site in town that has 18v and 20v max tools and sell one. if i had any left i could sell them to the local tool store to "upsell" when he sells 20 volt kits to the guys that also have 18 volt tools.

i would bet money that they would fly off the shelf. somebody with the know how needs to do a kickstarter.

 

[rslaback]

i think we are on the same page. if there was an adaptor available. i would buy the first one and ten more because i know i could have them sold by the end of the day. if it was priced at something under 100 dollars i could swing by every job site in town that has 18v and 20v max tools and sell one. if i had any left i could sell them to the local tool store to "upsell" when he sells 20 volt kits to the guys that also have 18 volt tools.

i would bet money that they would fly off the shelf. somebody with the know how needs to do a kickstarter.

Dewalt would sue them. They have sued in the past based on the belief that their battery connectors are proprietary intellectual property. They would likely lose that case but it would take so long to get to trial that your average Joe would bankrupt himself in legal fees.

If you want one, you're going to have to make it yourself.

 

[sk farmer]

well i am not able to do it but somebody obviously is. it seems like from what he said, ebay made him pull the ad, not dewalt.

if somebody can make one, i will buy it.

 

[TomB19]

Hey, they're pretty honest... just most people don't take "12V/20V MAX" quite as literally as they should!

Those folks would probably be OK taking a job that pays $20/hr MAX, and get their first check for $17.50/hr.

 

[rslaback]

well i am not able to do it but somebody obviously is. it seems like from what he said, ebay made him pull the ad, not dewalt.

if somebody can make one, i will buy it.

dewalt does it through ebay. They even had eBay pull an ad that a guy had of a HF drill that was yellow and black because they have yellow and black trademarked for power tools.

 

[dpaton]

Dewalt would sue them. They have sued in the past based on the belief that their battery connectors are proprietary intellectual property. They would likely lose that case but it would take so long to get to trial that your average Joe would bankrupt himself in legal fees.

If you want one, you're going to have to make it yourself.

This. There is literally no technical reason a functional adapter could not be created at a viable price. Especially given the installed base of products.

I happen to own a company that develops products on a consulting basis. We make evaluations like this all the time. It's a slam dunk technically.

Legally? Not worth it. DeWalt (AKA Stanley/B&D) is the 800lb gorilla in the room. They have an army of overpaid lawyers waiting to parachute down and stomp all over the necks of anyone doing anything with their brand or products. The legal basis to build such an adapter is fairly solid. The practical reality of the motions, wrangling and greenmailing that would ensue from the Stanley end is unimaginable.

They might not be right, but they'll bury anyone who tires and win in a war of attrition.

That said, I may just make myself one. Maybe. Not that I'd ever show anyone. Legal threats you know.

 

[kctyphoon]

there is a simple solution here - instead of Dewalt charging people $100 for the old first gen lithium battery pack they made for the 18v stick tools, they could just charge less for that - cause its a ******* joke that an older lithuim cost someone $100, and a brand new, "new technology" lithium is like $70 in the stores, and all over ebay NEW for like $35 -$40 for 1.5 and 2.0 amp/hr packs. thats one solution, heres another -

all dewalt would need to do, is STOP selling their old nicad kits, and STOP selling the old 18v Nicad stick packs, and then START selling newer stick litium packs in 1.5 - 4.0 amp/hr's models, like they do with the 20v line... **** the adapter, - just make a newer battery system for the old tools - and thats all the support people need.. 2nd hand market, and aftermarket nicad battery packs, and aftermarket battery pack inserts will support existing customers for years if they dont want to buy new. it makes no sense for people to even buy new nicad combo kits, and the likely reason is most people dont even know what the difference is..

dewalt lost me as a 20+ year customer for this exact reason - all i wanted was lithium batteries - and for what it cost to buy the 18v lithium packs as an upgrade, and buy a new charger - for a little more money i bought brand new Milwaukee stuff, with 4.0 batteries, and brushless.. they are better tools, they make more tools in their line ups in both 12v and 18v - they make better hand tools - so if i had to buy all new stuff, why would i stay with dewalt.. many people switched over to Milwaukee because of this, and all that could have been avoided if they just made lithuim batteries in 18v that were the same price as the 20v max lithiums.. - which is EXCALTY WHY PEOPLE WANT AN ADAPTER - its becuase of the difference in cost of the 20v vs 18v lithium packs, and the options of sizes - that are almost all cheaper than the smaller, more expensive, first gen 18v lithium. $400 for 4 batteries, for a set of tools 15 years old is just ******* stupid.. esp when i have to buy a $70 charger on top of that.. give me that set for $225 - i would still be flying Dewalt's colors, and would have been proud to do it..

 

[kctyphoon]

This. There is literally no technical reason a functional adapter could not be created at a viable price. Especially given the installed base of products.

I happen to own a company that develops products on a consulting basis. We make evaluations like this all the time. It's a slam dunk technically.

Legally? Not worth it. DeWalt (AKA Stanley/B&D) is the 800lb gorilla in the room. They have an army of overpaid lawyers waiting to parachute down and stomp all over the necks of anyone doing anything with their brand or products. The legal basis to build such an adapter is fairly solid. The practical reality of the motions, wrangling and greenmailing that would ensue from the Stanley end is unimaginable.

They might not be right, but they'll bury anyone who tires and win in a war of attrition.

That said, I may just make myself one. Maybe. Not that I'd ever show anyone. Legal threats you know.

so then why do so many other compainies make replacement dewalt 18v batteries in identical packs??

 

[Farmall450]

No worries, you'll be able to buy the Nano base batteries for years to come.

This ^

DeWalt is on your side.

 

[rslaback]

so then why do so many other compainies make replacement dewalt 18v batteries in identical packs??

US Manufacturers don't. Good luck to Stanley/Black and Decker if they attempt an intellectual property lawsuit in China. The reason they can't get the generic batteries pulled from eBay is that eBay requires them to have a patent or trademark to pull a listing.

 

[DPDISXR4Ti]

Yes there are. A lithium battery powered tool needs to have protection against running the battery too dead.

Ah yes, now I recall. I can only assume that the 18V Lithium batteries that Dewalt introduced for the old 18V tools have that shut-off circuitry in the battery. The "new" 20V product line has that circuitry in the tool.

So what we would want is a 20V battery with the shut-off circuitry in the battery (or the adapter).

 

[JBFromOZ]

I've been drawing up a design for 3D printable 20Max to 18V adapter.
Issues regarding low voltage I am considering as has been suggested a low voltage cutoff which would disconnect power at the adapter.

the design and circuitry will be available as open source, non commercial.

some pics of the design are here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/87180506@N08/sets/72157652008870760/

 

[Wizzard]

I own and am happy with a couple of the DeWalt cordless tools I have. But they have indeed lost me as a future customer due to their battery debacle. I only have the 18V Li-Ion charger since I only use the 18V Li-Ion batts that my tools came with, yet the Lowes stores in my area don't carry any of the 18V Li-Ion batts...they only have the older 18V Ni-Cads or the new 20V batts in stock, wtf. It is as if DeWalt wants you to 're-buy' into the 20V line. Instead they've forced me to start re-buying into Mil's Fuel line.

Not a good business move on DeWalt's part.

 

[Farmall450]

I own and am happy with a couple of the DeWalt cordless tools I have. But they have indeed lost me as a future customer due to their battery debacle. I only have the 18V Li-Ion charger since I only use the 18V Li-Ion batts that my tools came with, yet the Lowes stores in my area don't carry any of the 18V Li-Ion batts...they only have the older 18V Ni-Cads or the new 20V batts in stock, wtf. It is as if DeWalt wants you to 're-buy' into the 20V line. Instead they've forced me to start re-buying into Mil's Fuel line.

Not a good business move on DeWalt's part.

Every brand does this, not just DeWalt...we couldn't use 12v NiCAD forever.
Feel free to buy milwuakee but sooner or later the FUEL line will be outdated and phased out too.

 

[sk farmer]

pm sent jbfromoz

 

[Kirbot]

Threads like this almost make a Ryobi convert out of me.
Aren't they just about the only company who kept the same battery shape since, basically the very first 18v tools?

As it is, I'm happy with Ridgid and Milwaukee. There's just nothing stand out in the Dewalt line to my eye.
Which is a shame, since I've been a Dewalt fan ever since my dad bought their 18v drill close to 10 years ago.

 

[JBFromOZ]

http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a-Battery-Protection-Circuit-low-voltage-cut-/ something like this should do the job of low voltage cutout,

I have added some further pictures of the adapter in place with a 20VMax battery and my 18V impact driver.

feels a little bit loose, so will adjust to stop a minor rotation.

next step will be to get some copper strip and wire this baby up.

 

[rslaback]

Every brand does this, not just DeWalt...we couldn't use 12v NiCAD forever.
Feel free to buy milwuakee but sooner or later the FUEL line will be outdated and phased out too.

Ridgid and Ryobi have had the same battery platform for over a decade. Not all brands do this.

 

[Farmall450]

Ridgid and Ryobi have had the same battery platform for over a decade. Not all brands do this.

They'll switch eventually.

 

[rslaback]

http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a-Battery-Protection-Circuit-low-voltage-cut-/ something like this should do the job of low voltage cutout,

I have added some further pictures of the adapter in place with a 20VMax battery and my 18V impact driver.

feels a little bit loose, so will adjust to stop a minor rotation.

next step will be to get some copper strip and wire this baby up.

Yes, it should. I just checked a 20V DW pack and the additional terminals are in place for the balance connector.

 

[rslaback]

They'll switch eventually.

I doubt it. They've already used it for 18v NiCad and Lion. It's actually a part of their marketing.

 

[cashishift]

I'm already contemplating a move to Lithium tools.

Most of my stuff is in good enough shape I should be able to get good cash from them.

 

[Farmall450]

I doubt it. They've already used it for 18v NiCad and Lion. It's actually a part of their marketing.

In 10+ years if they're still using the same design there's a serious problem. Mostly as in they'll be out of business.

 

[rslaback]

In 10+ years if they're still using the same design there's a serious problem. Mostly as in they'll be out of business.

What makes you say that?

Their market share is actually growing at the moment. A lot of people, myself included, attribute that too the wide range of tools they have which use their One+ platform. The lifeblood of the One+ platform is that you can keep adding tools to your stable (Plus One, get it) without worrying about battery incompatibility.

Electronically, there is absolutely no reason why an 18vdc motor originally designed to get power from a Nicd source cannot get power from a LiPo source.

 

[DPDISXR4Ti]

I've been drawing up a design for 3D printable 20Max to 18V adapter.
Issues regarding low voltage I am considering as has been suggested a low voltage cutoff which would disconnect power at the adapter.

the design and circuitry will be available as open source, non commercial.

some pics of the design are here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/87180506@N08/sets/72157652008870760/

Thanks for taking this project on in a self-less manner. Looking forward to the results.

As an aside, have you also looked at the Porter-Cable/Black & Decker 20V Max batteries? I believe they have the same physical interface as the Dewalt 20Max, but with the low-voltage shut-off in the battery rather than the tool. As such, the adapter should be easier to design with no additional circuitry.

 

[Kirbot]

A little off topic, but what about using Porter Cable and Black and Decker 20v MAX batteries on Dewalt tools, or vice versa?

I know technically they're not compatible, but is it just a matter off breaking off some little lock tab, or is the whole mount/pins different?

 

[DPDISXR4Ti]

A little off topic, but what about using Porter Cable and Black and Decker 20v MAX batteries on Dewalt tools, or vice versa?

Hah, I beat you by 3 minutes!

 

[Kirbot]

Hah, I beat you by 3 minutes!

I'm a slow typer!

 

[stage20]

A little off topic, but what about using Porter Cable and Black and Decker 20v MAX batteries on Dewalt tools, or vice versa?

I know technically they're not compatible, but is it just a matter off breaking off some little lock tab, or is the whole mount/pins different?

You have to grind or cut something on the battery. I think there was a thread on it

 

[Farmall450]

What makes you say that?

Their market share is actually growing at the moment. A lot of people, myself included, attribute that too the wide range of tools they have which use their One+ platform. The lifeblood of the One+ platform is that you can keep adding tools to your stable (Plus One, get it) without worrying about battery incompatibility.

Electronically, there is absolutely no reason why an 18vdc motor originally designed to get power from a Nicd source cannot get power from a LiPo source.

I say that because from 10 years ago to 10 years from now batteries will be smaller, lighter, and inherently different than the design 20 years earlier. You could shed plenty of weight with a smaller, more compact pack. I think the stem in general is a thing of the past and in another 10 years will be obsolete.

Then again, maybe it's worth the extra ounces for that. However, I'd think any original battery packs would be toast by then!

 

[Farmall450]

Thanks for taking this project on in a self-less manner. Looking forward to the results.

As an aside, have you also looked at the Porter-Cable/Black & Decker 20V Max batteries? I believe they have the same physical interface as the Dewalt 20Max, but with the low-voltage shut-off in the battery rather than the tool. As such, the adapter should be easier to design with no additional circuitry.

How about porter cable? Should all be the same I'd think.

 

[JBFromOZ]

I'd be happy to adjust the adapter as required to suit different batteries, I am in australia, so Porter and some of the other brands are news to me.

 

[Kirbot]

I say that because from 10 years ago to 10 years from now batteries will be smaller, lighter, and inherently different than the design 20 years earlier. You could shed plenty of weight with a smaller, more compact pack. I think the stem in general is a thing of the past and in another 10 years will be obsolete.

Then again, maybe it's worth the extra ounces for that. However, I'd think any original battery packs would be toast by then!

12v li-ion pretty much obsoletes 18v tools of 10 years ago. That doesn't mean 18v itself is obsolete. As batteries get better, the tools will get more powerful and longer lasting, but I don't think 18v tools are going anywhere any time soon.

The actual shape of the battery mount shouldn't need to change.
The stem, seems to have gone out of favor, but I personally couldn't care less about it.

 

[sk farmer]

In 10+ years if they're still using the same design there's a serious problem. Mostly as in they'll be out of business.

********, ******** and ********. yup 3 times

if that theory held true then 1/4, 3/8,1/2, 3/4 and 1 inch drive should be obsolete. they are all over 10 years old and pushing 100. #1,2,3 and 4 phillips, all of the robertson bits, most of the torx bits and a bunch of other drives. they should all be abandoned also.

how about 115/120volt ac? that is way over 100 years old. lets not support that either, it is an obsolete platform. other than f....cking the end user there is no reason not to make tools with compatable platforms.,

why don't we come up with some new, made up fasteners sizes and thread counts while we are at it? the old ones are obsolete you know.

 

[Beemer533]

I own and am happy with a couple of the DeWalt cordless tools I have. But they have indeed lost me as a future customer due to their battery debacle. I only have the 18V Li-Ion charger since I only use the 18V Li-Ion batts that my tools came with, yet the Lowes stores in my area don't carry any of the 18V Li-Ion batts...they only have the older 18V Ni-Cads or the new 20V batts in stock, wtf. It is as if DeWalt wants you to 're-buy' into the 20V line. Instead they've forced me to start re-buying into Mil's Fuel line.

Not a good business move on DeWalt's part.

And you don't think Milwaukee will eventually change? How is it a bad business move to make a new, improved product? And it isn't like they have stopped making the 18v.. Dewalt has used the same form factor for a lot of years (I know the 14.4 came out in 94, but not sure about the 18v).

There is such a huge volume of the 18v stuff out there that they won't be going away any time soon..
Personally, as much as I always used Dewalt, I wasn't a huge fan of the ergonomics of the battery in the handle.. The flat pack introduced in the 20v line makes the ergonomics much better.

Personally, I'm glad to switch to an improved product that is more comfortable to use for long periods, longer lasting batteries, etc..

I've had the 18v stuff for so long my batteries are slowly starting to need replacement ; instead I am slowly selling off my 18v and switching to the 20.

 

[Kirbot]

And you don't think Milwaukee will eventually change?

For me, it's not so much expecting long term support, as it is Dewalt just give me any reason to stay with them. As far as the tools that I want go, the M18 Fuel stuff just blows Dewalt out of the water.

 

[Beemer533]

For me, it's not so much expecting long term support, as it is Dewalt just give me any reason to stay with them. As far as the tools that I want go, the M18 Fuel stuff just blows Dewalt out of the water.

That's fine and you certainly have to buy what you are happy with...

As for your last statement, we'll just have to agree to disagree

 

[03protege]

And you don't think Milwaukee will eventually change? How is it a bad business move to make a new, improved product? And it isn't like they have stopped making the 18v.. Dewalt has used the same form factor for a lot of years (I know the 14.4 came out in 94, but not sure about the 18v).

I don't think anyone would argue that it is a bad business move to make new products, it's only bad when this involves abandoning your old products.

All they would have to do is sell an adapter (with the voltage cutoff inside it), that consumers can use to integrate the new tools yet keep their old ones without having to buy obsolete batteries.

They are just being greedy, all or nothing.

Milwaukee is just as guilty (if not more) the switch from V18 to M18 wasn't even a serious design difference (going stemless with the battery)