west of Philly - barn saving

[rieferman]

west of Philly - barn saving (tours on pages 14, 19, and FINAL tour on 35)

New member here. Good to meet you all. I've been lurking for awhile and just really got hooked on the nice vibe and intelligent posts from the entire group here.

Everyone else I know is so sick of hearing about my project, but I think I'll have a captive audience here. ha ha

The canvas:
- 105 year old carriage house that was added onto to make it resemble a salt box style
- severe neglect. Dimension = 27 x 32 (two stories tall)
- 1 inch thick concrete floor over dirt... heaved badly
- posts, many rotten, some missing, on dry stacked stone foundation

Most heard comment:
"Have you considered just knocking it down and starting again?"

(yes.. of course I have)

Budget:
I haven't seen a lot of budget talk in most posts.. I see these amazing spaces with tons of cool toys... but I don't have that kind of money at this age (32). Anyhow, I'll be completely done for under $10,000 when it's all said and done. Well, $10,000 and aches and pains that will probably never heal.


OK, that's the backdrop, I'll drop in some pics and my progress to date now


(edit from 2020... I did end up accomplishing the first stage of this for $10K... then added and added as the building continued to improve over time. Hard to remember exactly, and perhaps I have this number in a later post, but I'd be willing to guess that the entire barn saving to date is probably in the $40K range... floor, siding, electrical, HVAC, materials etc.)

 

[rieferman]

OK, let's see if I know how to post a picture..

Here's side view of the old barn before any renovation

good, that worked..

here's front view

and here's the floor plan I'm moving towards:

(2020 edit: I wasn't terribly far off with the floor plan... but you'll see that the woodworking shop slowly takes over)

 

[rieferman]

Ok, so far, here’s what I’ve done so far:

- Started in January 2009 (grunt work is much nicer when you’re not sweating your **** off).
- After prep work, buying supplies etc., went to work pulling as much lean out of the building as possible. It still leans, but nothing like before. I used 5 two-ton come alongs attached high on the lean side, and low on the other side. Crank each one in turn. Moved the building about 5 inches total in the end.

- When it was as straight as I could get it (i.e. the ½” thick eye bolts started to bend open!) I cross braced everywhere as needed, and used better fasteners where it already existed. I’m happy to say that upon releasing the come alongs, the building stayed exactly put.

- Back wall had no center post, so beam had sagged badly. Removed as much sag as possible, dug footer, installed new post

 

[rieferman]

- Center post in building was badly rotten and leaning severely

- So I jacked up the 1st and 2nd stories, removed the post until I reached good wood, and put in a new post

- The front center post was sitting right on stone foundation in dirt, so front of building had sunk a few inches. Took the building back up with a temporary lifting rig I built, spliced in a good piece (unfortunately, no pic of that right now.. looks just like the center post though)

 

[cyclopsblown34]

You're starting with a cool beginning and applying your brain power to it. I like the heck out of it.

 

[KELLHAMMER]

rieferman
I've done many renovations, nothing compares to rescuing an old structure. The charactor is invaluable. Anyone can have a new building. But, nobody can reproduce what you have. I'm jealous

 

[rieferman]

- By this point, it was time to re-stage my work zone so I could access some other areas to repair.. Take note of the walk behind mower.. I LOVE that thing.

- Here, you can see that I decided the span on the main beam was too long.. also, in the floor plan, I needed something to latch my sliding doors to my workshop closed. Solution = new post to halve the span.
- In the background… The stairs are ripped out and will be rebuilt.. Originally, to install the stairs, the previous owner cut the 2nd story joists, and just tacked in that death trap. I added the post and header you can see here:
- Also note the aforementioned floor.. 1 inches to 2 inches of weak mix directly over dirt. Nice. Good work there.

- Back wall of building needed to be completely rebuilt.. Sill was sitting right on the dirt. Not even PT wood? Nice again. Good work there too. Anyhow, I floated the sill between posts. Ultimately, put an extra piece of PT on both side of the floated sill so that gravel/concrete could be poured against it like a form. A form that will stay in place permanently.

 

[rieferman]

- At the end of the back wall, I made a wide swing out “mower door” so I wouldn’t always have to move my truck when I wanted to mow the lawn

- Here’s exterior view of the same.. Please forgive the unfinished look.. siding isn’t in the budget for a little while yet

And that brings us up to today! Today, I hired out the first thing for this project (done EVERYTHING else 100% by myself. Literally have not even had anyone else do more than hold the other end of the tape measure)… remove old floor, grade/level, gravel/compact… and new 3500 fiber mesh mix gets poured on Wednesday!!!

After this, all easy stuff.. studding out/finish surfacing the rooms, re-wiring (need to bring out 100 amps first.. will hire that portion out), window installation, rebuild stairs etc. And next year, siding (galvalume I think.. maybe hardi board /batton)

What do you think?

 

[justinmc]

I like the heck out of it.

Ditto that... Ditto that.

Man thats gonna be a great structure when you're done. I'd love to have a cool old shop like that. Old wooden structures just have such character. Somewhere there are several posts from a guy who has an small wooden barn/shed with a model A, etc.

 

[uponroof]

Nice work and welcome! Beautiful old building. Are you in Chester county? I'm in Harleysville. Love the outhouse too.

Looks like you have a nice old shed/barn to start with and are going about some much needed stabilization.

I'm curious about the dormer on the back side. looks like it was done after original construction. I'm thinking the second floor(s) on this building offer all kinds of possibilities both as a usable office/storage/whatever space... and (when/if the floor is removed) as a high bay for a first floor car lift(?).

Circular stairs? They might save floor space but limit heavy access up and down. Regarding heavy storage on the second floor (after you get it strengthened), an old backhoe or mechanized lift of some sort would ease loading heavier object through one of the outside 2nd floor front doors.

I understand your budget constraints and limits but don't sell the future short, you never know what might happen....Perhaps an addition to the building (on the outhouse side?) should be considered when laying out the current floorplan (hard to say as I can't really see the grade on all four sides or plot plan relative to the residence).

The point is, and please excuse my suggestions as I see the potential in this gem, perhaps a car lift or a few other goodies can be added to an expanded building/shop/garage years from now. I've done renovations all my life (54 now) and the key is to plan, plan, plan...think it through from all angles, sleep on it, hash it out some more...review with the wife and friends and plan some more. Pretty soon you'll have a bulletproof multi staged project which will motivate you for years to come.

It's called the pursuit of happiness and it's what we men do best when we take this pursuit to our own 'special spaces'... like this building.

Best of luck with your work and plans.

 

[rieferman]

uponroof wrote:

I'm in Harleysville.

cool, I'm right down the road in Collegeville.. right near the intersection of 113/29.

I'm curious about the dormer on the back side. looks like it was done after original construction. I'm thinking the second floor(s) on this building offer all kinds of possibilities both as a usable office/storage/whatever space... and (when/if the floor is removed) as a high bay for a first floor car lift(?).

Good eye. The original structure ended where the roof line changes. Then they added on (poorly.. I've fixed it) with the back section. Cool thing is that I was able to save the original barn door, and will be able to re-use it in its original position as a way to go from the exercise room/office to the workshop.

I've saved a nice big pile of barn wood and beams etc. My plan is to start my wood working side career by using the materials for making some rustic furniture, tables etc. Just simple, sturdy items with lots of character.

2nd story... hold on, I don't want to lose my post if this session times out, I think I have some pics of that someplace.. Will re-post in a minute

 

[rieferman]

edit: ok, here's the best I have of 2nd story right now.. Kind of dark, but you can get the idea:

The plan up there is to create a rec room in the main area, and use the addition area (where the ceiling is much lower) for general storage etc. That would give me about 13 x 27 storage, and 18 x 27 rec room. The upstairs, since not in contact with ground moisture, has much more of the character evident. Good mortise/tenon examples, huge long beam running down the middle etc. I already fixed all the floor joists, so it's safe/strong up there. Just need to add plywood subfloor, figure out windows, soffit, and insulation. "just"

---

cyclopsblown34 wrote

I like the heck out of it.

THANKS! It's really nice to have some people see the vision like I do. Many people have trouble understanding "it must get worse before it gets better" when it comes to a renovation like this.

kellhammer wrote

nothing compares to rescuing an old structure. The charactor is invaluable. Anyone can have a new building. But, nobody can reproduce what you have.

and justinmc wrote:

Old wooden structures just have such character.

In my opening I commented how people are always asking "have you considered ripping it down and starting again?". For one, I can do this job for under $10K. To get similar size, 2 story building, and assuming township would give me variance to again build so close to the road, it would cost upwards to $50K. For another, the amount of stuff going to a landfill with my project is VERY minimal. About one pallet's worth of material. But most importantly in my mind is what kellhammer and justinmc wrote above.

oh and uponroof also wrote:

the key is to plan, plan, plan...think it through from all angles, sleep on it, hash it out some more...review with the wife and friends and plan some more.

I hear that. I read several books cover to cover on the topic. This one is by far the best (I've even emailed with the author):

http://www.amazon.com/Renovating-Barns-Sheds-Outbuildings-Engler/dp/1580172164

I've also been very liberal about just pulling the car over and talking to barn owners in the area. They're all very open and happy to talk about their own buildings. Then, I had Simeon from White Horse Construction (Lancaster, PA based) consult with me. I keep an ongoing "pen pal" correspondence going with barn owners across the country that are doing their own projects.

ha ha, my wife thinks I'm nuts, but all the planning and discussing really helps you make the right choices

 

[cyclopsblown34]

Ditto that... Ditto that.

Man thats gonna be a great structure when you're done. I'd love to have a cool old shop like that. Old wooden structures just have such character. Somewhere there are several posts from a guy who has an small wooden barn/shed with a model A, etc.

Check out member Nimrod. His shop is the one I think you're referring to.

 

[cdrewferd]

That's amazing. It's going to be an amazing building when you're done.

 

[rieferman]

cyclopsblown34 - yeah, Nimrod's place is awesome. I read that thread where everyone was trying to pick the coolest space. I just hope mine turns out that cool when it all comes together (years from now! ha ha)

Thanks cdrewferd


OK, question for you guys.. In the finished exercise room, I will be insulating the walls and installing heat (just simple baseboard electric) and AC (just leaving myself a properly sized outlet next to a side window where it won't be an eye sore). Doing the wall insulation is no big deal, question is about the ceiling. In that room, I'd like to leave the ceiling rafters exposed.

I could install furring strips along each rafter leaving me a place to staple, and attach drywall, but leaving beams exposed.

Or, I was considering just using rigid foam held up somehow and just paint it directly. No drywall on the ceiling at all.

Anyone have an opinion on these ideas? Or other ideas they've seen work in this type of application?

Thanks again everyone, this forum is really cool. So many great ideas, cool spaces, helpful people!

 

[curdy]

Nice work. I'm down the road in Chester County. I have a friend close by that has an old barn on his property. I'm sure he's had to do some level of work on it. If you're still looking for ideas and suggestions, I could get you two in touch.

 

[Frank Elson]

well done on the work, and well done on saving a nice old building with a lot of character.

 

[rieferman]

Thanks Frank!

I'm trying really hard to do this well - today, my excavation contractor, and the carpenter that live down the road both separately gave me "job well done so far" types of comments. Makes me proud because my real line of work has nothing to do with any of this (I'm a product manager).

Curdy, Definitely would love to talk with your friend regarding his project. Too many ideas is a nice problem to have ha ha

---

I tried the attachment feature to show the concrete floor!


OK, to relate this to the floor plan I showed earlier..
- Closest to the camera is parking area.
- Where I'm standing to take the pic is where the overhead door will go
- Near to me, on the left of those posts, that's where wood shop will be and stairs to 2nd story.
- far from me on left side, the lower elevation area, that's the exercise room footprint
- far from me on right side, that's mower (etc.) storage area.. mower door is where the light on that side of the picture is coming from.

make sense?

any ideas on finishing the ceiling?
I wrote:

OK, question for you guys.. In the finished exercise room, I will be insulating the walls and installing heat (just simple baseboard electric) and AC (just leaving myself a properly sized outlet next to a side window where it won't be an eye sore). Doing the wall insulation is no big deal, question is about the ceiling. In that room, I'd like to leave the ceiling rafters exposed.

I could install furring strips along each rafter leaving me a place to staple, and attach drywall, but leaving beams exposed.

Or, I was considering just using rigid foam held up somehow and just paint it directly. No drywall on the ceiling at all.

 

[uponroof]

Or, I was considering just using rigid foam held up somehow and just paint it directly. No drywall on the ceiling at all.

Anyone have an opinion on these ideas? Or other ideas they've seen work in this type of application?

Thanks again everyone, this forum is really cool. So many great ideas, cool spaces, helpful people!

***

rieferman,

When finishing the attic of our old farmhouse I used rigid foam insulation between the ceiling/roof rafters. This provided far better insulating than fiberglas as I was working with an 8-10 inch cavity. Installation involved 'half nailing' 16 or 20 pennys on the sides of the rafters at the appropriate depth.

In other words, if the insulation was 2 inches thick, and I was tripling it up, I measured in 6 inches and placed the nails at that mark. I drove the nails in only half way to provide a backstop for the insulation boards.

After the foam boards were cut to width with a hand saw on a quick horse jig, they were friction fit between the rafters and bumped up against the nails. Wire and roof nails driven flush to the face of the rafters were used to hold up the looser fitting boards. Any voids between the boards and rafters were filled with expanding spray foam from Homey.

The cieling was finished with drywall (you could use plywood or whatever).

As a roofing contractor I have foam boards left over from commercial roofing projects. In our barn I have a pile of various thickness isocyanurate insulation. It's about 7 foot high and of course 4 foot by 8 foot.

This pile is made up of mainly 1.5, 2, and 2.5 inch thick boards. This stuff is old and edges are roughed up from being moved and re-piled in the barn over the last several years, but if you're working with 24 OC studs you'll need to cut them down to fit anyway.

Coincidentally today I was pricing out 1.5 inch iso for a quote...The job we were bidding was 50,000 sq ft, so I was quoted a very tight number. When buying quantity 1.5 iso sells for $17.35 per 4x8 sheet.

So, if you do the math, the pile in the barn is equivalent to 46+ 1.5 inch boards...or $798. I was going to use them in my son's attic conversion which has since been abandoned due to the bad economy.

I'll sell them to you for $350 if you're interested. Use them anywhere you want..ceilings or walls..the stuff works well. Being you're only 15-20 minutes away this might just work for you...if not, that's fine too. We might have some more stored down at our shop....

good luck

 

[Ford52PU]

Nice job on saving your barn. looks like there are a few of us "west of philly" I'm in West Brandywine, (Coatesville area)

Keep up the good work.

 

[Skyline]

For your ceiling insulation check out this build:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33928&highlight=timber+frame

He used wood panels to cover up rigid insulation panels. The wood panels were held against the insulation with trim. As this was a timberframe garage, he had a pretty similar situation to what you are facing. The end result is that the beams are left exposed, yet it looks like there is no insulation at all, and your eye is fooled into thinking the wood panels are the outside sheathing; (yet this fellow claimed the 2" ridgid foam board used to be R19). The only thing I would change, for your situation, I would try to find some reclaimed lumber that has a nicely weathered surface. It would be easy enough to cut your own tounge and grooves, (if you can't find reclaimed lumber with this already) with a table saw or router table.

 

[rieferman]

uponroof - thanks for the offer, I just might take you up on that as I progress. I'll PM you as the time nears.

ford52PU - yeah, it's really cool that there seems to be a decent number of members nearby to our area. We'll have to have a barn party when it's all said and done!

skyline - thanks for that link (geez, that guy's place is SWEET).. I'm wondering though, could you get away with just painting the foam itself rather than covering it at all. To my eye, it's just a smooth surface that would look like drywall once primed and painted... no need necessarily to drywall over it. See what I mean?

(though the rough finished wood would be sweet... in fact, I have enough material in my old barn to do that without having to buy anything)

 

[Skyline]

skyline - thanks for that link (geez, that guy's place is SWEET).. I'm wondering though, could you get away with just painting the foam itself rather than covering it at all. To my eye, it's just a smooth surface that would look like drywall once primed and painted... no need necessarily to drywall over it. See what I mean?

Then how would you hold the foamboard to the ceiling? Keep in mind that you will need air space for ventilation behind the foam board (leading from soffit vents to ridge vent); probably some of that ribbed stuff would be needed under the foam board. I think in the garage I sent you a link to, he used the wood planking to hold the insulation in place.

 

[rieferman]

Well, this would be for ceiling of a 1st story room (not under the roof rafters on 2nd story) so ventilation space wouldn't be needed. In terms of attaching, I was just thinking of edge trim for it to rest on. It's light and only 24" spaces. I'm probably trying to save a step one something that's just going to drive me nuts in the end... I'll end up covering with wood like you suggested I'm sure

 

[jeff51]

Awesome - it's always great to see old structures saved!

 

[uponroof]

rieferman,

The foam insulation is now listed in classifieds if interested.

Floor looks very nice. Now's the time to harden/seal to keep the 'dusting' down.

 

[rieferman]

got any concrete floor curing tips beside the "water it twice a day" advice I've gotten so far?

 

[Chuckleins]

YOu are doing a great job - I'm just a little west from you - Lancaster County - Near Blue Ball

 

[rieferman]

heh heh. Blue Bell I think you mean? Blue Ball is funnier though!

 

[5wndwcpe]

Stay out of The Office, you'll get more work done that way.

 

[rieferman]

5wndwcpe you must be a local.. the office? no one knows that place if you're not from around here. that's too funny.

 

[5wndwcpe]

5wndwcpe you must be a local.. the office? no one knows that place if you're not from around here. that's too funny.

Yep. What can I say, I have friends in low places.

 

[rieferman]

OK, floor is cured, so I was able to start working again.

Also, my dad was in town from Pittsburgh for the long weekend to visit. So I figured I'd use his help while I had it.

So, we started by setting up my temporary workshop and brought back my mowers etc. from the neighbor's barn. I took the needed steps to set it up very close to how the proposed finished floor plan will be so that I can live with it, work out any issues, and then build it perfect in the end. Really glad I have the ability to take this route as I'm sure I'll find flaws in my original floor plan as we go (e.g. I already have changed my mind on some of the lighting placement).

Anyhow, we got the first new window in, and we did all the entry prep for installing the garage door. Got the garage door unpacked, checked contents, watched video on installation, read the manual.

This week I will frame for the new garage door, and this weekend I will install it.

Then, some framing for the remaining windows, install those windows.

Followed by building the stairs, framing the walls to the rooms, roughing in electric etc.

 

[curdy]

Sounds like you're making good progress. I didn't realize you had replied to me regarding my friend and his barn, I'll get in touch with him about it.

BTW, Chuckleins did mean to say Blue Ball. Its a town in Lancaster County not far from New Holland. Blue Bell is in Montgomery County.

 

[rieferman]

ha ha, that's totally my bad then. Blue Ball it is!

Thanks for checking in again - it's definitely fun to be at the stage of doing projects that have a visual payoff that everyone can see (whereas most of the work up to this point only had a functional payoff that I had to specifically point out "look at that solid joist over there... whoop dee doo")

 

[curdy]

Yup. ***********, PA would be my first choice. If you can't make there...Paradise, PA should have potential. If all else fails...Bird In Hand, PA. I guess if you can't make to any of them...well, that's probably when you end up in Blue Ball, PA

 

[rieferman]

ha ha, curdy, that's great. You could probably do a whole comedy skit about PA town names!

last night, got the lumber for the stairs. depending on weather tonight/this weekend, I will either frame the garage door or build the stairs (because I don't want to stand in the rain while framing the garage door).


oh, my milwaukee sawzall fried out on me... brand new as of January, heavy duty, 11 amp model. Switch just died 1/2 way through a 2x4 cut. What the hell? Anyhow, it's supposed to be back from warranty repair in a couple days - it's really slowing me down because I need to tear down before I can rebuild.

pics coming as soon as I actually accomplish anything!

edit: bought a nice bevel gauge on clearance last night.. $4 for nice model with wooden handle... boy, that will be useful to own.

 

[curdy]

You must have really been putting that sawzall through its paces. I touched base with my friend, we'll see if he has any points to make regarding the barn.

In case you're in need of any more comic relief....

On your next trip through our great state don't forget to stop by Hop Bottom, PA. Jugtown, PA sounds interesting, but not nearly as promising as Climax, PA. I think I'd pass on Big Beaver, PA. Lover, PA could be good though.

And of course, while not towns, the Spread Eagle Village and Spread Eagle Inn both sound like they're worth visiting.

OK, I'm done

 

[rieferman]

yay, got the stairs built.. solid as hell, level as can be.. i can now access all that storage on 2nd story

 

[curdy]

Nice, they do look solid. Good stuff!