Why hasn't...

[TimDaToolMan]

Why hasn't an independent company stress tested various sockets, ratchets, and wrenches from the dozen or so well known tool companies?

I've seen it with air filters, oil filters, and even oil in the car sector.

This would end the ever proverbial ******* match of "SK is better than Snap on", "Armstrong is better than SK", etc.

Surely a simple machine with an electronic torque readout could stress test various tools until they crack or fail otherwise.

 

[rice rocket]

There is a test out there, mostly German brands though since it was a German magazine. The Snap-On was middle of the road.

 

[kctyphoon]

Why hasn't an independent company stress tested various sockets, ratchets, and wrenches from the dozen or so well known tool companies?

I've seen it with air filters, oil filters, and even oil in the car sector.

This would end the ever proverbial ******* match of "SK is better than Snap on", "Armstrong is better than SK", etc.

Surely a simple machine with an electronic torque readout could stress test various tools until they crack or fail otherwise.

according to "some" people on here, breaking strength has nothing to do with the quality of a ratchet.... i brought up the same point when i was comparing a $7 HF ratchet to a $70 snap on.

 

[PJNJ]

Why would an independent company do that on their own?
If you're talking about some company like Consumer Reports - probably no real call for it from their readers. Otherwise for other companies there is really nothing in it for them since it will cost them money and time (more money). If someone pays them, I'm sure they will.

 

[TimDaToolMan]

Well not so much ratchets, but sockets and wrenches.

 

[PJNJ]

according to "some" people on here, breaking strength has nothing to do with the quality of a ratchet.... i brought up the same point when i was comparing a $7 HF ratchet to a $70 snap on.

Well I would think breaking torque would be one of the components of "quality". But what do you and I know.

 

[KamiCrit]

I believe the idea behind tooling isn't always brute strength. Yeah a beefy wrench/ratchet/socket will take more torque, but what good is a high strength rated tool when it's too bulky to get in that one small area you can't quite get at.

The industrial brands selling point is torque and strength, big and ugly. While the automotive brands are selling the agile thin tooling that can be worked hard but won't break.

 

[rice rocket]

re: the test from a german magazine

http://wiesemann.eu/_UPLOAD/files/Oldtimermarkt.pdf

From Monte

 

[Jeremy77]

I believe the idea behind tooling isn't always brute strength. Yeah a beefy wrench/ratchet/socket will take more torque, but what good is a high strength rated tool when it's too bulky to get in that one small area you can't quite get at.

The industrial brands selling point is torque and strength, big and ugly. While the automotive brands are selling the agile thin tooling that can be worked hard but won't break.

Some of the larger Williams Super WM have taken the idea of "big and ugly" and proudly carried that banner high. Seen a set of 1.25 inch ones at work the other day with a beam so thick that I think you'd burn up a 6" grinding wheel cutting through it. Seemed way to bulky to comfortably use on a regular basis, to me at least.

 

[that one guy]

IR vs Aircat Impact torque test:

3/8 Ratchet torture test - tests each ratchet until failure
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/additional-how-to/1310-ratchet-handles-torture-test/

I would like to see a torque test comparing all of the major sockets up until their point of failure.

 

[Adam.C]

I believe the idea behind tooling isn't always brute strength...

The industrial brands selling point is torque and strength, big and ugly. While the automotive brands are selling the agile thin tooling that can be worked hard but won't break.

I believe you are correct. Here are some more specifics. The US and EU made tools are designed and manufactured to meet industry specs (DIN/ISO in Europe, ANSI in US). Like other products I am familiar with, there is no additional value placed on exceeding the spec. The top wrenches tested by the German magazine were all way stronger than any of us would ever need them to be.

Snap On has publicly stated several times that their goal is to make tools that make the job of the mechanic easier. They tend to make tools on the thin side to help mechanics remove bad parts without removing good parts and thus work faster.

So I'm not in favor of using strength testing as a measure of socket, or wrench performance. Thinking as a user, my preference in wrenches is for the longest wrench possible that can still access what I want to work on. My preference for sockets is that they bite onto what I need removed. A strong socket that rounds the bolt head instead of breaking does me no good.

One notable exception is ratchet mechanisms. I see an advantage in using long ratchets in lieu of breaker bars. But this requires super strong ratchet mechanisms. So I think its smart to compare ratchet strength, adding ratchet angle/no. of teeth and possibly back drag to the equation. Snap On's dual 80 3/8" drive is good to about 250ftlbs. They have a new super long 17" ratchet. That means it would take a 175lb pull to break the ratchet. That may be achievable. Where we don't want compare ratchet strength is on the std length models that fully grown mountain gorilla couldn't break.

 

[TimDaToolMan]

IR vs Aircat Impact torque test:

3/8 Ratchet torture test - tests each ratchet until failure
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/additional-how-to/1310-ratchet-handles-torture-test/

I would like to see a torque test comparing all of the major sockets up until their point of failure.

Now that's more like it!



Too bad they didn't do a torque test of truck brands.

 

[HandToolGuy]

We do that in house - I work for and sell Proto tools. Since it's done in house we don't publish results.
Ratchets & torque wrenches are tested to both ultimate torque and life cycle. We've got testers that "click" a torque wrench over 30,000 cycles. We stop and test the calibration at different intervals.
There is also have a wrench breaking machine (it's probably got a fancier name, but I'm in sales not engineering.) - it tests ultimate torque of a wrench. We also observe how the wrench broke - failed catastrophically vs bending. We'd rather see a wrench bend in failure vs. pieces flying off.

PS - Making a socket that withstands breaking is easy - just make it really thick. The key is making it thin & durable & safe. Got to have all 3 to make a good socket.

 

[Adam.C]

We do that in house - I work for and sell Proto tools. Since it's done in house we don't publish results.
Ratchets & torque wrenches are tested to both ultimate torque and life cycle. We've got testers that "click" a torque wrench over 30,000 cycles. We stop and test the calibration at different intervals.
There is also have a wrench breaking machine (it's probably got a fancier name, but I'm in sales not engineering.) - it tests ultimate torque of a wrench. We also observe how the wrench broke - failed catastrophically vs bending. We'd rather see a wrench bend in failure vs. pieces flying off.

PS - Making a socket that withstands breaking is easy - just make it really thick. The key is making it thin & durable & safe. Got to have all 3 to make a good socket.

Right. That's pretty good for a sales guy. I believe that most well made ratchets failure mode is a shear failure of the square drive. To me, that means the new good quality ratchets are as strong as breaker bars, which in my work and that of shade tree mechanics like me, is a big deal.

I know long ratchets like Snap Ons popular SHLF80A are expensive. But they have really crossed a line to a new realm of functionality. A 25" breaker bar attached to a fine toothed ratchet head that allows you to pull your hardest where it's the most comfortable for you. If someone suddenly started making combination wrenches with twice their current strength, it would nothing whatsoever to change my tasks.

 

[sberry]

Yes, at some point its as good as it needs to be. The cheap import tool has now reached that level consistently. Only cost another dollar a set to get a good one, why mess with making junk? whole lotta stuff sold same pieces different box and different price.
There are a few pieces that benefit a professional in some cases mostly given the use rate is hi enough to justify the cost.

 

[sberry]

As a matter of point, I have busted a fair amount of Sears sockets. I have never deformed them. Most broke with very little pressure and the ones that survived have endured extreme use. Never broke a Sears end wrench and brutalized a lot of them.

 

[george4]

I know long ratchets like Snap Ons popular SHLF80A are expensive. But they have really crossed a line to a new realm of functionality. A 25" breaker bar attached to a fine toothed ratchet head that allows you to pull your hardest where it's the most comfortable for you.

Yep, I have not used a breaker bar since getting long handled 80s.

 

[Hiball]

Well I would think breaking torque would be one of the components of "quality". But what do you and I know.

Would you measure the "quality" of a V8 engine based off the Max RPM's prior to a rod sticking of the block? Or do you want something that is going to cover a wide variety of variables for 300k miles? It's not different when talking about ratchets, do you want something with a anvil that can withstand 800ft lbs, but damage the paw/gear at 200ft lbs?

 

[thewatusi]

An individual's criteria for a quality tool is in direct proportion to the features exhibited by the tools already owned by said individual.

 

[sberry]

How bad assed does everyone think they are?

 

[Dimitri]

Well I would think breaking torque would be one of the components of "quality". But what do you and I know.

Realistically, be it a ratchet, wrench or socket should be able to support it's realistic load.

One does not losen 16mm bolts that were gunned down with a 1/4" drive tool.

Nor does someone use a 3/4" drive tool to undo the 7mm hex head trim screws of a car.

Brute strength is meaningless when tools are sized properly for the job at hand. Most tools, even $2 ratchets from the dollar store will do their job for the properly sized application, it is more of how long until they wear.

Ratcheting mechanism wear and tear, chrome plating, size deformation, are far more important.

Dimitri

 

[sberry]

Yall remember the torque wrench test? The avg,,, way above, 8 out of 10 coudnt tell the difference in 10# or 25# of torque. Some not between 5 and 25, got a sneaking suspicion some of them worry about their tools being manley enough.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Sockets cost $1 - $20. You buy them once (in theory). If the break, you either get i warrantied or you buy another. Why bother testing.

 

[PJNJ]

Would you measure the "quality" of a V8 engine based off the Max RPM's prior to a rod sticking of the block? Or do you want something that is going to cover a wide variety of variables for 300k miles? It's not different when talking about ratchets, do you want something with a anvil that can withstand 800ft lbs, but damage the paw/gear at 200ft lbs?

If you noticed I said "one of the components" - reading is fundamental. I never said it was the be and end all. Wear over time, fitness for a particular function or use, form and function for the user (how it looks and feels), etc. are all components of quality. I love how people jump on something around here without reading the whole statement.

Using your analogy - I would want an engine that runs all day to 300k at 2500 rpm but throws a rod when I floor it?

 

[PJNJ]

Realistically, be it a ratchet, wrench or socket should be able to support it's realistic load.

One does not losen 16mm bolts that were gunned down with a 1/4" drive tool.

Nor does someone use a 3/4" drive tool to undo the 7mm hex head trim screws of a car.

Brute strength is meaningless when tools are sized properly for the job at hand. Most tools, even $2 ratchets from the dollar store will do their job for the properly sized application, it is more of how long until they wear.

Ratcheting mechanism wear and tear, chrome plating, size deformation, are far more important.

Dimitri

Ok I guess your ok using pot metal India made wrenches then? Torque to failure is going to get tested by a manufacturer along with other components of "quality". Otherwise they could all make a really "purty" "long wearing" tool that breaks the first time you exceed a reasonable torque for the nut or bolt at hand.

 

[PJNJ]

I believe you are correct. Here are some more specifics. The US and EU made tools are designed and manufactured to meet industry specs (DIN/ISO in Europe, ANSI in US). Like other products I am familiar with, there is no additional value placed on exceeding the spec. The top wrenches tested by the German magazine were all way stronger than any of us would ever need them to be.

Snap On has publicly stated several times that their goal is to make tools that make the job of the mechanic easier. They tend to make tools on the thin side to help mechanics remove bad parts without removing good parts and thus work faster.

So I'm not in favor of using strength testing as a measure of socket, or wrench performance. Thinking as a user, my preference in wrenches is for the longest wrench possible that can still access what I want to work on. My preference for sockets is that they bite onto what I need removed. A strong socket that rounds the bolt head instead of breaking does me no good.

One notable exception is ratchet mechanisms. I see an advantage in using long ratchets in lieu of breaker bars. But this requires super strong ratchet mechanisms. So I think its smart to compare ratchet strength, adding ratchet angle/no. of teeth and possibly back drag to the equation. Snap On's dual 80 3/8" drive is good to about 250ftlbs. They have a new super long 17" ratchet. That means it would take a 175lb pull to break the ratchet. That may be achievable. Where we don't want compare ratchet strength is on the std length models that fully grown mountain gorilla couldn't break.

Failure doesn't just mean shattering or breaking completely. How about line wrenches that spread instead of removing the flare nut? Once it spreads it has failed and the nut gets rounded off. Or the open end of a Flank Drive plus wrench - once it spreads it has failed. Strength is an component of quality that is important along with the components of quality. If it wasn't then people would not be purchasing and crowing about Snap On wrenches ability to get fasteners off unlike other companies offerings.

 

[Hiball]

If you noticed I said "one of the components" - reading is fundamental. I never said it was the be and end all. Wear over time, fitness for a particular function or use, form and function for the user (how it looks and feels), etc. are all components of quality. I love how people jump on something around here without reading the whole statement.

Using your analogy - I would want an engine that runs all day to 300k at 2500 rpm but throws a rod when I floor it?

I don't believe I jumped on anyone, Geez.. But Engines are generally components of Automobiles as a anvil is to a ratchet.

 

[PJNJ]

I don't believe I jumped on anyone, Geez.. But Engines are generally components of Automobiles as a anvil is to a ratchet.

Yeah "geez" right back at ya.

 

[Hiball]

Yeah "geez" right back at ya.

Ok..

 

[TimDaToolMan]

If it wasn't then people would not be purchasing and crowing about Snap On wrenches ability to get fasteners off unlike other companies offerings.

That's what I like to call "drinking the koolaid".

Joe tells John Snap On is the best, so John goes and spends $20,000 on a big set of snap on and a cart.

John tells James how good the tools are, so James goes out and buys a set too,

Now you have 3 people who have probably never even tried any other brand.

The worst thing? Snap On has had some gimmicky stuff made, like steak knives, flashlights, pocket knives and horse shoes, that are not EVEN MADE by SO, they are Snap On Licensed and made in China.

I've seen a gold plated steak knife set bring over $200. Any other cheap steak knife set would be worth $25 tops. But it brings that much simply because the manufacturer put that name on it.

It's the same way with John Deere. They sell JD lawn mowers at Lowe's, and I know for fact that they are made by another company, they just have the JD Green and Logo on it.

People pay more for the name, even if it's not made by them.

Not starting a SO war, SO actually makes some pretty damn good tools, but not every tool they make is the best damn tool.

But try telling that to some people, and they would laugh at you. These are the people that buy the $200 SO steak knife set.

I spent over 18 hours on the internet over the course of a week studying different brands of tools. Every single person will tell you their preferred brand is king. "Snap On is Junk, Armstrong is King", "SK is junk, Snap On is king".

This is why independent testing needs to be done. Every company brags about their tools. They need to be put in their place.

 

[PJNJ]

That's what I like to call "drinking the koolaid".

Joe tells John Snap On is the best, so John goes and spends $20,000 on a big set of snap on and a cart.

John tells James how good the tools are, so James goes out and buys a set too,

Now you have 3 people who have probably never even tried any other brand.

The worst thing? Snap On has had some gimmicky stuff made, like steak knives, flashlights, pocket knives and horse shoes, that are not EVEN MADE by SO, they are Snap On Licensed and made in China.

I've seen a gold plated steak knife set bring over $200. Any other cheap steak knife set would be worth $25 tops. But it brings that much simply because the manufacturer put that name on it.

It's the same way with John Deere. They sell JD lawn mowers at Lowe's, and I know for fact that they are made by another company, they just have the JD Green and Logo on it.

People pay more for the name, even if it's not made by them.

Not starting a SO war, SO actually makes some pretty damn good tools, but not every tool they make is the best damn tool.

But try telling that to some people, and they would laugh at you. These are the people that buy the $200 SO steak knife set.

I spent over 18 hours on the internet over the course of a week studying different brands of tools. Every single person will tell you their preferred brand is king. "Snap On is Junk, Armstrong is King", "SK is junk, Snap On is king".

This is why independent testing needs to be done. Every company brags about their tools. They need to be put in their place.

I don't think you are saying I drank the "koolaid" (though maybe you are). And I haven't. I only have Snap On flare wrenches, a small wrench or two and a few sockets along with a universal. Flare wrenches bought on Ebay and the rest at fleamarkets/garage sales. All way below list. The rest is a mix of Craftsman, Armstrong, Wright, Allen, KD, Gearwrench, SK, Neiko, Astro Pneumatic, Husky, even some HF and Duralast. I only broke one thing in the last 10 years - a Craftsman 1/2 breaker bar trying to take off a front axle nut on a '88 Honda. My fault as I had a long cheater on it and the anvil snapped. I ended up using my nephew's IR impact with a Craftsman chrome 1/2 socket to get it off (didn't have an impact and I had to get it off and fixed). The socket took a beating but didn't break or shatter (yeah, I had safety glasses, a face shield, gloves and a long sleeve shirt on). For the most part all of my sockets, wrenches, ratchets, etc. work though some work better than others, have a better feel or chrome plating, etc. Even the "hated" Craftsman raised panel ratchets with proper cleaning and lubing will usually get the job done.

Would testing help establish "who's the best"? Sure, but for my own personal use, I really don't see the need for testing to create an ultimate pecking order. I try to buy what I consider to be good or great tools at prices I can afford.

And I'm not so sure the major manufacturers/brands would want the independent testing done and published either. They probably have their own in-house testing done for their own knowledge. Publishing it could hurt their pricing, profits and/or image.

 

[HandToolGuy]

And I'm not so sure the major manufacturers/brands would want the independent testing done and published either. They probably have their own in-house testing done for their own knowledge. Publishing it could hurt their pricing, profits and/or image.

And you get too many lawyers involved when you publish your internal testing results.

 

[Adam.C]

Not starting a SO war, SO actually makes some pretty damn good tools, but not every tool they make is the best damn tool.

But try telling that to some people, and they would laugh at you. These are the people that buy the $200 SO steak knife set.

I spent over 18 hours on the internet over the course of a week studying different brands of tools. Every single person will tell you their preferred brand is king. "Snap On is Junk, Armstrong is King", "SK is junk, Snap On is king".

This is why independent testing needs to be done. Every company brags about their tools. They need to be put in their place.

I get where you are coming from. I think you are underestimating how complicated meaningful testing would be. The simple tests have been done. Snap On usually comes out on or near the top. Craftsman doesn't typically do well (for example). There are stronger wrenches than Snap On, but no wrenches as thin are as strong. And the competitors' wrenches are shorter. So, even tho Stahlwile for example is found to be stronger, some guys will prefer SO. That's not stubbornness. Tools are complicated.

Where it starts to get even more complicated is when guys like AMechanicNamedJohn or SBerry come along and say "I prefer the absolute cheapest tool because I can make it work, and if it breaks I can buy another one for $2." For these folks no amount of quality or strength testing is relevant because "best" is lowest cost.

Nowhere is this clearer than toolbox discussions here. Clearly there are "better" toolboxes than the HF models. But is the added performance, convenience, quality, looks etc of a premium toolbox worth the extra cost?

Rest assured, we can't simply create a spreadsheet ranking tools strongest to weakest and really hope to help anyone or change any minds. I think a better approach is to discuss the criteria we use for selecting tools. An awful lot of guys here have cost very high in their criteria for "best". For wrenches for example, I choose "long" as what I consider to be most valuable to me. Obviously I want a minimum strength, but strongest is not what I value.

 

[logical]

That's what I like to call "drinking the koolaid"..............


Blah blah blah...........

This is why independent testing needs to be done. Every company brags about their tools. They need to be put in their place.

Speaking of KoolAid, your posts read like an Amsoil webpage.. The tests you want cost money. Either convince a magazine editor to pay for it, pay for it yourself, or understand it isn't going to be done (at least publicly).
Every major tool company has already done every comparison test known to man on their own and competitors tools. Even if they do very well they are not going publish the results but instead just make safe and broad generalizations in their advertising. Too much detail just gives the competition ammunition and starts a "test results" war that nobody can win.

 

[sberry]

No, the best isn't lowest cost. That is not my point. What is though is that Joe Hometime and most professionals could not tell the best from a set come from Wallyworld if they were blindfolded and couldn't read the brand name. Another part of the point is I have seen actual real world use and it doesn't match the blanket statement that all the cheap is junk when in fact it has been getting better to the point its becoming very generic with a good share of it being the same thing under different brands.
Probably more the point is that one cant really make a rational argument for the cost of the premium,,, you can argue you want it, you can argue it makes you feel better but if a guy cant use a common wrench and strips bolts then better tools aint gonna help much,,, if Joe hurts his delicate hands a 700$ box flare set isn't going to give super powers.
The pricing on new hardline is so cheap its disposable. Even with 50% student discount a guy could replace most of it every year and come out on top and while there are a few wrenches fail or spread it worth it for most to upgrade?
My real world experience doesn't match the blanket statements, in fact the opposite.

 

[sberry]

There are a handful of real common cases. the cman line wrench, the RP ratchet, the 3/4 drive ratchet from China wont last in hard service,,, big surprise?? Most of the rest of it being pretty good and now some of as good as the best.
I lived this generation when stuff at fleas was terrible but now its really even hard to find some of that pitiful stuff that was fairly expensive in comparison to quality when today its just as easy to make good. The money made isn't saved from making a lot of it cheaper, its from reduced inventory, stocks and made from tossing a brand sticker on and shoving it in a different box and double or triple the price.

 

[sberry]

I never broke a Cman wrench, had a 3 ft pipe on one a while back with a hundred pounds of pull. 4 bolts come with loud snap, how much better does it need to be. Probably would have bent a better wrench.

I don't want the absolute cheapest, I want the affordable that gets it done. They would have been in the junk long ago if they didn't work and they are in a high duty cycle life. Most of them have 1000;s of cycles on them, different experience than buying a 50$ wrench and using it twice on a jeep or a civic and giving it aerospace analysis.
Different test than giving it to a dozen kids armed with a metric sledge and a 6 pack for a decade.
Io top it off John sold the stuff a year later for more than he paid for it. I don't think a guy can do that on premium with a 50% discount.

 

[sberry]

All this is really moot when one considers the real world risk to ones tools, theft and loss, numbers that dwarf breakage failure and warranty issues,,, then multiplied by pot odds or cost and you have the purchase based on real science.
Science engineered by people smarter than we are by far. Way above arguments about how good the tool really is and when half the people believe math that proves otherwise I got to wonder,,, wtf,,, is what I believe accurate,,, does it really match especially when it comes with hearsay and mostly cliché. I compare this "risk" similar to riding a Harley vs flying commercial.
We all do this, I whizzed thru a couple small fortunes. I in some way understand why some advocate in a game they got no stake in.

 

[Adam.C]

No, the best isn't lowest cost. That is not my point. What is though is that Joe Hometime and most professionals could not tell the best from a set come from Wallyworld if they were blindfolded and couldn't read the brand name.

So there you have it. A 13mm socket test will change nothing for this individual. I get his point.

 

[sberry]

I think its relevant that I changed my mind. I been down this road a while and set foot a time or 2 on a truck when I started, the simple math was astronomical, I wanted to find a solution a lot less painless than that.
There is always more, more smarter, more expensive, more experience more tests which really look to be rather marginal except for one lame Cman ratchet. I don't know how old the engineer is, I recall a couple cars he mentions but forget the dates. I am not super smart and not all that old, 55 but I been working with these same tools since I was a child, went in to the trades and adopted most of the thinking for a while but really saw some change in regards to the tool and its use and in the end it has come down to,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
A lot of the stuff we still have in service is cheap, the good or better we started with is still there, its value as an asset has not improved, some of it obsolete so we spent a lot a long time ago for something we don't use and continue to store.
Pecies that really do see hard use should be duplicated and in some cases multiplied. Yes, if I put all out 9/16 use on a single wrench we would find out how long it lasts but split between a couple dozen they all do.
A couple my faves in thin and special are not my snaps, they are old cman someone gave. 60's. 70's stuff. Doesn't have a darn thing to do with cost. Same with screwdrivers, in fact its way easier to do selection from a collection and a full set is needed but multiples of commons well worth it even to hometime.