Carpenters - Wood Truss with Arch

scootermcrad · Nov 17, 2015

Okay... this is probably some high-level carpentry, but maybe someone here has done this or at least looked into it.

In one of my re-roofing projects (going from flat roof to 12-12 gable) I need to build just ONE truss that will be exposed, and I was thinking maybe it should be a really attractive looking truss. Was thinking timber, as it would work perfect for the feel of the project, however, then I thought, what if the bottom member of the truss was arched for the ultimate in drama.

Anyone ever built something like these in their own shop? Timbers for the straight section and then some sort of laminated glued arch, I presume?

I saw where someone else here made arched beams for their woodshop, but couldn't find the thread. Turned out really neat.

Any input from the pros would be great!

manwithtools · Nov 17, 2015

Contact a timber framing company. They probably can make it cheaper and faster than you can make your own. They have access to the wood and the tools required to make them in their shop.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

theoldwizard1 · Nov 17, 2015

The correct term for them is architectural vault truss.

I agree the manwithtools. Find a timber frame company. They will have access to the material and tools.

scootermcrad · Nov 17, 2015

Thanks guys! I'll look into it. I'm sure you're right.

theoldwizard1 said:
The correct term for them is architectural vault truss.

Vault truss! Thank you for the proper terminology! I appreciate it!

Just for fun, has anyone actually made one??

slickgt1 · Nov 17, 2015

Really easy to do out of straight pieces. and yes, you would glue screw straight sections in a general rough sections of the arch. Then cut out the final arch. The first one is always a *****.

Tim The Tool Man · Nov 17, 2015

slickgt1 said:
Really easy to do out of straight pieces. and yes, you would glue screw straight sections in a general rough sections of the arch. Then cut out the final arch. The first one is always a *****.

^This. Also depending on the span and whether or not it is structural or decorative you just might be able to cut it out of a single 2 x 12...

scootermcrad · Nov 17, 2015

Tim The Tool Man said:
^This. Also depending on the span and whether or not it is structural or decorative you just might be able to cut it out of a single 2 x 12...

Would be structural and the span is approximately 16 feet.

scootermcrad · Nov 17, 2015

I ran across this, a bit ago. Pretty interesting! Looks like it would be fun to make! (but then I'm a little ill in the head) :lol_hitti

http://www.fonerbooks.com/laminate.htm

http://www.redsuspenderstf.com/gallery/public3/report08.aspx

And how about a video... I suspect this is the pros doing it...

dutchgray · Nov 17, 2015

I have done plenty of straight bottom ones but never a vault, they are actually pretty easy to make.

slickgt1 · Nov 17, 2015

Just do it along these lines. Lots of clamping force for glue-up, let it set up, will be really strong.

http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/how-to/step/0,,20364821,00.html

This is one of those things I use my Kreg pocket screws to join the butts. Put these on the inside before gluing up the layers. Hidden inside.

scootermcrad · Nov 17, 2015

slickgt1 said:
Just do it along these lines. Lots of clamping force for glue-up, let it set up, will be really strong.

http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/how-to/step/0,,20364821,00.html

This is one of those things I use my Kreg pocket screws to join the butts. Put these on the inside before gluing up the layers. Hidden inside.

I actually made an arched window in similar fashion. LOTS of glue!! Turned out beautiful though.

Daniel Dudley · Nov 17, 2015

The arch in your picture is actually two pieces, and is split in the middle with a metal reinforcing plate. The arch isn't very great, so each piece could be cut from solid lumber without laminating.

When I build full timber trusses that have to integrate into a roof, I draw the roof rafters and the truss full scale on the floor of the building with a chalk line, and then use a pencil and straight edge to make permanent marks at the ends and critical joints.

By drawing everything at once, and at full scale, I know my rafters and trusses will fit perfectly together, and I have a full scale pattern of each piece, as well as an assembly jig to build them on.

I have done this many times, with several different truss designs, and if you draw it full scale (with the rafters), you cannot fail, assuming you have basic framing knowledge. If you can draw it, you can build it. If you can't draw it, you can't attempt it.

If this is something you want to do yourself, PM me, and we can go over the process, from A to Z. I can even make a scale drawing for you to use as a guide. When I built the trusses for my studio, the material costs for two trusses was 400.00. The trusses I built are the collar ties for the building, as well as supporting members for the structural ridge beam.

Clearly there is some money to be saved if you do it yourself. Mortise and tenon joints are nice, but not required for a strong assembly, and this simplifies the woodworking a great deal.

scootermcrad · Nov 18, 2015

Daniel Dudley said:
The arch in your picture is actually two pieces, and is split in the middle with a metal reinforcing plate. The arch isn't very great, so each piece could be cut from solid lumber without laminating.

When I build full timber trusses that have to integrate into a roof, I draw the roof rafters and the truss full scale on the floor of the building with a chalk line, and then use a pencil and straight edge to make permanent marks at the ends and critical joints.

By drawing everything at once, and at full scale, I know my rafters and trusses will fit perfectly together, and I have a full scale pattern of each piece, as well as an assembly jig to build them on.

I have done this many times, with several different truss designs, and if you draw it full scale (with the rafters), you cannot fail, assuming you have basic framing knowledge. If you can draw it, you can build it. If you can't draw it, you can't attempt it.

If this is something you want to do yourself, PM me, and we can go over the process, from A to Z. I can even make a scale drawing for you to use as a guide. When I built the trusses for my studio, the material costs for two trusses was 400.00. The trusses I built are the collar ties for the building, as well as supporting members for the structural ridge beam.

Clearly there is some money to be saved if you do it yourself. Mortise and tenon joints are nice, but not required for a strong assembly, and this simplifies the woodworking a great deal.

Thank you very much for your reply. I will shoot you a message shortly.

Not only can I draw it and have a wild imagination, but I was going to also do the actual design in CAD and do quick FEA on it.

I didn't even see that tail sticking down in that first truss, which I agree would imply that the arch is two relaxed arch sections. I actually think the first truss would be very similar to how I would build it. I was thinking I would prefer the bottom to be one piece without the tail, but maybe life would be easier constructing it that way, and from solid timber. I would have to have a local mill cut something like that for me, but it would certainly be easier than laminating.

scootermcrad · Nov 18, 2015

This is pretty much what I would want the truss to look like, right here. About 4 feet narrower than what mine would be, but same style. I probably just need to see about getting something like this priced and delivered.

div><a href='http://www.houzz.com/photos/17100249/Guest-House-Nantucket-beach-style-kitchen-boston'><img src='http://st.hzcdn.com/simgs/18e1486d04120a1e_8-7520/beach-style-kitchen.jpg' border=0 width='500' height='334' /></a></div><div style='color:#444;'><small><a style='text-decoration:none;color:#444;' href='http://www.houzz.com/photos/beach-style/kitchen' >Beach Style Kitchen</a> by <a style='text-decoration:none;color:#444;' href='http://www.houzz.com/professionals/home-builders/boston' >Boston Home Builders</a> <a style='text-decoration:none;color:#444;' href='http://www.houzz.com/pro/jraith/jonathan-raith-inc' >Jonathan Raith Inc.</a></small></div>

It appears that this is all timber and not a glulam type construction. The bottom arch appears that it has grain that follows the arch, but natural wood grain, not glulam grain. Do people actually steam and bend timbers like that??

I would actually be perfectly happy with a nice Glulam construction. I like the look and the structural ridge beam will also be exposed, so it will all groove.

Radix2 · Nov 18, 2015

scootermcrad said:
It appears that this is all timber and not a glulam type construction. The bottom arch appears that it has grain that follows the arch, but natural wood grain, not glulam grain. Do people actually steam and bend timbers like that??

I would actually be perfectly happy with a nice Glulam construction. I like the look and the structural ridge beam will also be exposed, so it will all groove.

I don't think it would be possible to steam bend a timber of that size. More likely they would resaw the timber into bendable size and the reassemble/laminate it into the final arch. With the matching color and grain, the magic would be hard to see in the final product.

Cool project you have going.

scootermcrad · Nov 18, 2015

Radix2 said:
I don't think it would be possible to steam bend a timber of that size. More likely they would resaw the timber into bendable size and the reassemble/laminate it into the final arch. With the matching color and grain, the magic would be hard to see in the final product.

Cool project you have going.

Yeah, I didn't think it would be possible. To saturate something that dense and then form would be pretty insane. I'm sure the one in that picture is probably a Glulam.

Kevin54 · Nov 18, 2015

One of the member on here has made trusses like that, but I can't remember who it was. He added an addition to the garage and made the trusses. IIRC, he had to soak the boards until they took a bow. It took a few days to do each one. I'll try to remember who it was or dig up a pic as I do remember saving it, but the pic may be on one of three computers so it may take me a while.

scootermcrad · Nov 18, 2015

Kevin54 said:
One of the member on here has made trusses like that, but I can't remember who it was. He added an addition to the garage and made the trusses. IIRC, he had to soak the boards until they took a bow. It took a few days to do each one. I'll try to remember who it was or dig up a pic as I do remember saving it, but the pic may be on one of three computers so it may take me a while.

Awesome!! Standing by! I would definnitely like to see that. :thumbup:

Kevin54 · Nov 18, 2015

Still looking, but I did run across this http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=260852&highlight=arched+truss

Hopefully someone else will remember the other trusses like you are looking for. I do remember that the owner stained them rather dark, and I think he may have put bolts in them that looked like rivets, but not 100% sure on that.

Jess · Nov 18, 2015

For a span of 16', you would want to be sitting down when receiving a quote from a timber frame builder. If seasoned timber is available and you have access to a big band saw, a proven design, the space and time, I'd build it myself just for the satisfaction. Douglas Fir would be my choice but there may be other suitable species where you are located. Consider reclaimed timbers as stock since they will likely be clear and well seasoned. A small mill could get them to dimension for you and let the fun begin.

scootermcrad · Nov 18, 2015

Kevin54 said:
Still looking, but I did run across this http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=260852&highlight=arched+truss

Hopefully someone else will remember the other trusses like you are looking for. I do remember that the owner stained them rather dark, and I think he may have put bolts in them that looked like rivets, but not 100% sure on that.

Was the person you're thinking of building a wood shop? I remember a hobby carpenter building this neat little craftsman style shop and he built arched bottom trusses with a flat top. I think he was a structural engineer by day. Possibly in Canada. I ran across his thread when looking at carriage door threads.

scootermcrad · Nov 18, 2015

Jess said:
For a span of 16', you would want to be sitting down when receiving a quote from a timber frame builder. If seasoned timber is available and you have access to a big band saw, a proven design, the space and time, I'd build it myself just for the satisfaction. Douglas Fir would be my choice but there may be other suitable species where you are located. Consider reclaimed timbers as stock since they will likely be clear and well seasoned. A small mill could get them to dimension for you and let the fun begin.

Yeah, I figured it was big money, which is why I'm thinking of making it myself, if it's doable.

I have a very large band saw that's intended for timber work. It's not up and running, but it could be for a project like this, if I needed it to be.

My Old Tools · Nov 18, 2015

scootermcrad said:
I ran across this, a bit ago. Pretty interesting! Looks like it would be fun to make! (but then I'm a little ill in the head)

http://www.fonerbooks.com/laminate.htm

http://www.redsuspenderstf.com/gallery/public3/report08.aspx

And how about a video... I suspect this is the pros doing it...

Red Suspenders Timber Framers is in Nacogdoches, Tx (or NacaNowhere as my wife calls it). Tim is an old friend of mine.

KnurledNut · Nov 18, 2015

Depending on the radius, you might be able to rough it out with a Prazi.

TLCObsession · Nov 18, 2015

scootermcrad said:
This is pretty much what I would want the truss to look like, right here. About 4 feet narrower than what mine would be, but same style. I probably just need to see about getting something like this priced and delivered.

div><a href='http://www.houzz.com/photos/17100249/Guest-House-Nantucket-beach-style-kitchen-boston'><img src='http://st.hzcdn.com/simgs/18e1486d04120a1e_8-7520/beach-style-kitchen.jpg' border=0 width='500' height='334' /></a></div><div style='color:#444;'><small><a style='text-decoration:none;color:#444;' href='http://www.houzz.com/photos/beach-style/kitchen' >Beach Style Kitchen</a> by <a style='text-decoration:none;color:#444;' href='http://www.houzz.com/professionals/home-builders/boston' >Boston Home Builders</a> <a style='text-decoration:none;color:#444;' href='http://www.houzz.com/pro/jraith/jonathan-raith-inc' >Jonathan Raith Inc.</a></small></div>

It appears that this is all timber and not a glulam type construction. The bottom arch appears that it has grain that follows the arch, but natural wood grain, not glulam grain. Do people actually steam and bend timbers like that??

I would actually be perfectly happy with a nice Glulam construction. I like the look and the structural ridge beam will also be exposed, so it will all groove.

I would call them 'arched chord trusses'.

https://scontent-sea1-1.**.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/25585_342042705841_6486845_n.jpg?oh=3645108c4898a9aec4486de4ba6855bd&oe=56FAFB76

Probably about $3500 depending on species, not including a structural engineer to design and stamp the plans if required. Bottom collar tie in 2 pieces would make it cheaper. A grain matched glu-lam would be far more expensive and with a relatively short span, you can do it out of solid sawn.

sd171 · Dec 3, 2015

scootermcrad - I received your PM asking about the cost of my attic trusses. I replied twice and even sent you a new PM, but none of these messages appear in my sent items folder so I assume something is wrong with my PM settings and you didn't receive them.

I used a general contractor for my project who applied his overhead to all supplier costs and self-performed some of the work. So I know he paid the local truss supplier $3,617 for 18 trusses including design and delivery. I'm sure the first truss design was off the shelf, but they didn't charge anything additional to redesign it with a 1' knee wall extension to move the bottom chord down.

Good luck with your project! I look forward to following along.

383 240z · Dec 3, 2015

I Nor'Easter on here does that kind of stuff. He is up in Maine.

Nor'Easter · Dec 3, 2015

383 240z said:
I Nor'Easter on here does that kind of stuff. He is up in Maine.

Thanks Keith

We can order curved glulams. Hard to order curved timbers though. :bounce:

The truss would be engineered in house then specs on radius, length, width/depth, materials, finish grade etc would be sent to the mfr.

Is the truss going to be load bearing, or purely architectural? If it is load bearing then you'll need numbers to back it up. If it's just for looks then I'd definitely look at gluing up your own.

scootermcrad · Dec 9, 2015

Hey guys! Bumping this back up for discussion...

Last night I was at the lumber yard looking at Southern Yellow Pine planks in standard 1x6 nominal sizes. Just for fun, I pulled a couple out and looked at the quality and grain as well as flexibility. Since the arch I would like to have is pretty gentle (about 12-inches over 16-feet), it seems like it would be pretty straight forward to build an arch with SYP and essentially copy the process that is shown on the "Red Suspenders" site I linked above. Stack of 8 planks would give me a nice square beam.

The "Red Suspenders" guys used the form, a ****-ton of clamps, and marine grade epoxy. Anyone tried their procedure? Seems pretty straight forward to me.

Any other glue suggestions for high pressure gluing situations like this, or is the epoxy the ticket? I'm assuming this would effect the quality of the stained finish, though. Thoughts?

jives · Dec 9, 2015

Kevin54 said:
Still looking, but I did run across this http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=260852&highlight=arched+truss

Hopefully someone else will remember the other trusses like you are looking for. I do remember that the owner stained them rather dark, and I think he may have put bolts in them that looked like rivets, but not 100% sure on that.

These are Starwood Rafters. They also have gothic arches just like the OP is looking for. Google 'em.

NORTON'S SHOP · Dec 9, 2015

manwithtools said:
Contact a timber framing company. They probably can make it cheaper and faster than you can make your own. They have access to the wood and the tools required to make them in their shop.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

Fitting name "manwithtools" :lol_hitti

theoldwizard1 · Dec 9, 2015

Call these guys Unadilla Laminated Products

scootermcrad · Dec 9, 2015

So, I just ran across this crazy guy on Youtube and he does a laminated arched beam in this video from cedar for a bridge project. This is pretty much the same way I was thinking I would build the beam... just longer. And probably more glue...

Sorry. Can't remember how to embed the videos...

Radix2 · Dec 9, 2015

scootermcrad said:
So, I just ran across this crazy guy on Youtube and he does a laminated arched beam in this video from cedar for a bridge project. This is pretty much the same way I was thinking I would build the beam... just longer. And probably more glue...

Sorry. Can't remember how to embed the videos...

I don't think I have any pictures handy, but I built my deck with a curved laminated cedar railing - it looks kinda like a fantail on a ship. I used West system laminating epoxy and clamps (the rail posts were strong enough to form the bends so no form was needed - the rail is 6 in wide (8 plies) and about 3 in deep the length is about 18 feet and the bend is about 2.5 feet. You can also use screws between the layers to lessen the springback/required form strength and it makes clamping easier since you do not have to fight all the plies at once.

The rail is now 23 years old and has survived as many Michigan winters with little upkeep - so it is very strong way to go.

scootermcrad · Dec 9, 2015

Radix2 said:
I don't think I have any pictures handy, but I built my deck with a curved laminated cedar railing - it looks kinda like a fantail on a ship. I used West system laminating epoxy and clamps (the rail posts were strong enough to form the bends so no form was needed - the rail is 6 in wide (8 plies) and about 3 in deep the length is about 18 feet and the bend is about 2.5 feet. You can also use screws between the layers to lessen the springback/required form strength and it makes clamping easier since you do not have to fight all the plies at once.

The rail is now 23 years old and has survived as many Michigan winters with little upkeep - so it is very strong way to go.

Wow! Thank you for sharing that! Did you stain or paint it? If stained, how did the stain react with the glue seams?

Post pictures, if possible!

RickP · Dec 9, 2015

I also think West System epoxy is a good product to use. The manufacturer even posted detailed procedure for you to use to make your own arches:

http://www.westsystem.com/ss/a-laminated-boat-shelter-2/

Their epoxy is pricey, however, so I get mine here:
http://www.uscomposites.com/epoxy.html

scootermcrad · Dec 9, 2015

RickP said:
I also think West System epoxy is a good product to use. The manufacturer even posted detailed procedure for you to use to make your own arches:

http://www.westsystem.com/ss/a-laminated-boat-shelter-2/

Their epoxy is pricey, however, so I get mine here:
http://www.uscomposites.com/epoxy.html

Look at that! Thanks for posting that link. :thumbup:

Radix2 · Dec 9, 2015

scootermcrad said:
Wow! Thank you for sharing that! Did you stain or paint it? If stained, how did the stain react with the glue seams?

Post pictures, if possible!

Stained- the west system epoxy I used is a molasses color, you don't see it at all, even when the rail is freshly power-washed, it is subtle.

I'll find a picture.

A key to doing this is screwing the layers as you go, way less mess and way less muscle needed.

RickP · Dec 10, 2015

Radix2 said:
Stained- the west system epoxy I used is a molasses color, you don't see it at all, even when the rail is freshly power-washed, it is subtle.

That's a good point -- West System is a dark color, but many other epoxies are almost clear if you don't want to stain it. I've used both interchangeably, but I was painting over it, so the color didn't matter to me.

Will your beam be exposed to sunlight at all? Epoxy will be damaged by sunlight and the joints will gradually lose strength. But you can buy a special UV-stabilized epoxy. Or else you can cover it with a stain that protects against UV damage.

scootermcrad · Dec 10, 2015

RickP said:
Will your beam be exposed to sunlight at all? Epoxy will be damaged by sunlight and the joints will gradually lose strength. But you can buy a special UV-stabilized epoxy. Or else you can cover it with a stain that protects against UV damage.

It will be used indoors in an area that has a half dozen windows or so. Only indirect exposure. Good point on the UV. I'm guessing my windows also offer some type of UV protection.

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