ajchien
Well-known member
Any harm in using JIS screwdrivers in regular Phillips screws?
Japanese Industrial Standard Screwdrivers
- Thread starter TheToolMan
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Trey T
Well-known member
wow. and i thought i learned everything about screwdrivers.
this mean that I have to spend more money. thanks GJ!
this mean that I have to spend more money. thanks GJ!
dede2897234
Well-known member
ajchien,
You can use JIS screwdrivers in regular Phillips screws. However, the fit of the JIS screwdriver tip might not be good enough to remove a tight or corroded Phillips screw.
You cannot use Phillips screwdrivers with JIS screws due to the great chance of stripping the head.
Dave
Sick Puppy
Well-known member
Although funnily enough, I find that the screwdriver on my Leatherman fits JIS screws REALLY well, better than any normal phillips screwdriver, and even my Koken P2. 
kathyprouty
New member
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2011
- Messages
- 1
I'm looking for a set of Phillips screw drivers with the Japenese tip? Do you carry them and what is the price?
superautobacs
Well-known member
If you're looking to buy brand new JIS-standard conforming screwdrivers, make sure the screwdriver manufacturer is STILL producing that particular screwdriver model to the old JIS standards. JIS is just like ANSI or DIN--a minimum standard. Most Japanese manufacturers have been producing screwdrivers/tools that exceed JIS standards. Companies have rather been producing tools to meet/exceed any global standard. Put in other words, if a company wants international recognition, they ought to produce tools that meet/exceed standards that are recognized by that particular country's industrial buyers.
The angles/geometry/profile, whatever you want to call it, from Vessel today is not very different from the average screwdriver you can buy today from any reputable brand, US, Taiwanese, or European.
The angles/geometry/profile, whatever you want to call it, from Vessel today is not very different from the average screwdriver you can buy today from any reputable brand, US, Taiwanese, or European.
bradleykd
Well-known member
I use ball handled vessels at work all the time. I work for toyota, I've got boxes of them in my tool box and I never knew that they were special.. haha. I do however carry one with the tip gound off at all times, along with the normal vessel tip. So I noticed the difference in screws, and the problems with using the drivers in each, I just didnt know that there was a real difference. haha.
joeswamp
Well-known member
I've read that but it does seem that my Vessels fit JIS screws better than my Wihas or my junky Craftsmans. Definitely if I have to loosen a stuck JIS screw the Vessels are all that I'll use. They did all come with stickers on them that said "Won't cam out!!" so I do think there must be some difference there -- Phillips are supposed to cam out.
The Vessel 900 series have a coating of metal particles (Jawsfit) similar to the Wera diamond tip. I love my Vessel 900/910's, great affordable everyday drivers.
superautobacs
Well-known member
It's just an anti-cam out feature similar to ACR, Wera's Lasertip or Diamond coated (BDC tips).
All cross-recessed drivers will inherently cam out when enough torque is applied, no matter what kind of anti-cam out feature it has. Pozidrive is much better in resisting cam out though.
joeswamp
Well-known member
Actually I thought the whole point of PoziDrive was to eliminate the cam-out tendency. I've read that the cam-out tendency was designed into Phillips deliberately at the beginning, since early production tools didn't have clutches. Once they realized they should put clutches into the tools, the Phillips folks realized that cam-out was a terrible idea, and so they came out with PoziDrive -- designed specifically to not cam-out. Unfortunately this standard came too late for the USA, where everyone had already standardized on Phillips, but not too late for Europe, which is why you see PoziDrive as a more successful standard over there.
I was under the impression that Japanese industry didn't want to license Phillips or PoziDrive, and so they came up with their own pseudo-Phillips standard that could be used with a Phillips screwdriver but didn't cam-out when used with the proper driver.
I found a JIS screw (marked with the dot) and checked the fit with my Wiha micro finish #2 and my Vessel Megadora #2. Both drivers fit the screw reasonably well, although the Wiha wobbled a little while the Vessel was rock solid, it felt glued to the screw. I'm pretty sure I could get more torque on this screw with the Vessel.
You might be right that both of these screwdrivers are made to the same spec, but the Vessel might have additional features (like radii smaller than the spec min radii) that make it fit JIS screws better. I've never studied these specs or the screwdriver dimensions, but I did find this on the Vessel web site:
http://www.vesseltools.com/hand-tools/screwdrivers/view-all-products.html
I was under the impression that Japanese industry didn't want to license Phillips or PoziDrive, and so they came up with their own pseudo-Phillips standard that could be used with a Phillips screwdriver but didn't cam-out when used with the proper driver.
I found a JIS screw (marked with the dot) and checked the fit with my Wiha micro finish #2 and my Vessel Megadora #2. Both drivers fit the screw reasonably well, although the Wiha wobbled a little while the Vessel was rock solid, it felt glued to the screw. I'm pretty sure I could get more torque on this screw with the Vessel.
You might be right that both of these screwdrivers are made to the same spec, but the Vessel might have additional features (like radii smaller than the spec min radii) that make it fit JIS screws better. I've never studied these specs or the screwdriver dimensions, but I did find this on the Vessel web site:
http://www.vesseltools.com/hand-tools/screwdrivers/view-all-products.html
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Sick Puppy
Well-known member
Okay, sorry in advice, I know my asking this seems obvious and lazy, but it's been a long day, and a lot happening (I'll go in to that later)... I'm considering spending about $60-70 on Vessel screwdrivers, sizes 00 - 3, stubby to 150mm. NZ has a lot of Japanese cars, and I always end up tinkering with one. Normal Philips screwdrivers like Wiha and Teng tend to cam out, my leatherman fits great (no idea why). I'm figuring that the JIS drivers are going to fit more like the leatherman, but since Vessels are hard to find here, I've not much to compare to.
Bottom line: is it worth me buying these drivers if they are no longer JIS? I want a decent fit, but it won't be economic for me to buy some now to try out and others later - shipping will kill me (and my wife for that matter lol).
Bottom line: is it worth me buying these drivers if they are no longer JIS? I want a decent fit, but it won't be economic for me to buy some now to try out and others later - shipping will kill me (and my wife for that matter lol).
Sick Puppy
Well-known member
Bumpage and I've just realised something - well, two things.
Firstly, there appears to be another* stockist for Vessel tools in the USA: http://www.vesseltools.com/
Secondly, all this time I've ben dithering about whether to go for the 900 or 910 series of Megadora screwdrivers, due to my thinking the 910 series replaced the 900 series, and that there were changes / debate in whether they now met the JIS standards (only to find that the JIS standards have kinda 'disappeared').
Well, according to the above site, the 900 are standard shanks, the 910 are thin shanks. I should just give up and buy a mixture of them both, as my head is now starting to hurt... lol
Firstly, there appears to be another* stockist for Vessel tools in the USA: http://www.vesseltools.com/
Secondly, all this time I've ben dithering about whether to go for the 900 or 910 series of Megadora screwdrivers, due to my thinking the 910 series replaced the 900 series, and that there were changes / debate in whether they now met the JIS standards (only to find that the JIS standards have kinda 'disappeared').
Well, according to the above site, the 900 are standard shanks, the 910 are thin shanks. I should just give up and buy a mixture of them both, as my head is now starting to hurt... lol
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ArcStyles
Well-known member
Level Chrome is cheaper, especially when you buy more than $99 dollars (the shipping is free) worth of tools. I bought all the Megadora (930, 910, 900 and the 980 Impacta offerings) screwdrivers from the LC site. Combine this with all my Felo drivers and I think??? I have everything covered.
Here is a link that should answer the differences question about the US phillips std vs Japan's Vessel (new JIS type) screwdrivers and why you might need Vessel in your arsnel.
http://www.vesseltools.com/hand-too...se-industrial-standard/view-all-products.html
Here is a link that should answer the differences question about the US phillips std vs Japan's Vessel (new JIS type) screwdrivers and why you might need Vessel in your arsnel.
http://www.vesseltools.com/hand-too...se-industrial-standard/view-all-products.html
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WMS PERFORMANCE
Well-known member
vessel megadora 900 & 930. which one is better?
dede2897234
Well-known member
WMS PERFORMANCE,
It depends what features you're looking for in a screwdriver. In addition, which applications you have in mind for that screwdriver.
The Megadora 900 has diamond like particles embedded in the tips to prevent cam-out (JAWSFIT). It also has knurling at the top of the shaft to speed installation and post-removal of a fastener.
The Megadora 930 also has diamond like particles embedded in the tips to prevent cam-out (JAWSFIT). It has a hex bolster below the handle for extra break out torque for removing a fastener. Lastly, the shaft goes through the handle to allow the user to strike the screwdriver with a hammer at the top strike plate.
If I had to purchase my Megadora screwdrivers again, I would purchase the Medgadora 930 instead of the 900 I own since I work on automotive repairs. However, in 2009 or 2010, the availability of Vessel in the U.S. was limited.
Dave
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WMS PERFORMANCE
Well-known member
thanks Dave
jallyn
Well-known member
Although funnily enough, I find that the screwdriver on my Leatherman fits JIS screws REALLY well, better than any normal phillips screwdriver, and even my Koken P2.
Apologies for reviving an old thread...
A Leatherman cross point screwdriver many times is their own hybrid Phillips #1/#2. It is neither #1 nor #2 Phillips, but to only have one to keep the multitool compact, kind of works in both which is better than a #1 Phillips driver which does not work well in a #2 Phillips screw, or a #2 Phillips driver that would not fit in a #1 Phillips screw.
This was made abundantly clear when looking at Leatherman specialty double-ended bits. The one that came in my Leatherman has a cross point driver marked "NO.1-2". And the complete Leatherman bit set has a double ended Phillips bit marked "NO.2" on one end and "NO.1" on the other.
dnschmidt
Well-known member
Actually, there no longer are JIS screwdrivers. The JIS standard was incorporated into the DIN 5260 standard and it's subsequent revisions which is used by most of the European and Asian manufacturers including Vessel which makes great screwdrivers. TOPTUL uses this standard as well. The primary difference is the sharpness (Phillips) and relative bluntness (JIS/DIN style) of the screwdriver tip. The DIN 5260 screwdrivers work perfectly in JIS as well as Phillips screws. You can feel the superior grip of the screwdriver in the head immediately. JIS was designed not to cam out (just like Pozidriv created by Phillips Screw Company itself which went nowhere in the US but became universal in European Furniture Hardware) whereas the Phillips was designed to INTENTIONALLY cam out. When Ford needed a screw it could install with air power tools (which at that time did not have clutches) they needed a screw they could install without stripping which is why the Phillips was designed to cam out.
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GM uses Pozidriv screw on there vehicles. Still amazes me how many GM tech still do not know that they are using the wrong screwdrivers.
dnschmidt
Well-known member
All of TOPTUL's "Phillips" tools are made to the DIN 5260 specification. This includes all of their bits as well as their screwdrivers. The screw holding bit you're asking about does conform to the DIN 5260 specification and works perfectly in American power tools.
A note about the ACR power bits I have up on EBay. These are made to the Japanese power bit specification. What that means is that the part of the bit that goes into the bit holder of an American impact driver or power screwdriver is longer than we use. It will not fit into an American impact driver or power screwdriver UNLESS you cut off 1/4" from the back of the bit. This modification takes about 30 seconds with an abrasive cut off wheel in a die grinder. After that you're golden.
A note about the ACR power bits I have up on EBay. These are made to the Japanese power bit specification. What that means is that the part of the bit that goes into the bit holder of an American impact driver or power screwdriver is longer than we use. It will not fit into an American impact driver or power screwdriver UNLESS you cut off 1/4" from the back of the bit. This modification takes about 30 seconds with an abrasive cut off wheel in a die grinder. After that you're golden.
Must be you I got the screwdriver from (just got it today) also planning to get the magnet holder bits, for use in a hammer impact driver, the snap on's I use now have never failed me (or rounded out) in decades of use on motorcycles, but would prefer to use correct bit. I assume the magnet can be moved back when not wanted to hold screw.
dnschmidt
Well-known member
What magnet holder bits are you referring to? The collar that goes around the screw holding power bit does retract.
dnschmidt
Well-known member
I assume what your taking about is an impact driver that you strike with a hammer, and normally a fairly big one. The FQBB0802 is not designed for use in these types of tools. It can be used in cordless impact drivers or cordless screwdrivers or drills. It's great for woodworking, dashboards or drywall. It's not designed to be smashed with a hammer.
Not a good one, mines a Snap On you just tap it with regular hammer, I use 3/8 socket drive bits, I have 3/8 drive 1/4 bit holder for bits like the Toptul. Even the cheapo impact drivers you have to whack the hell out of if really stubborn screw use 1/4 bits they have 1/4 bit holder built in, instead of the Snap Ons 3/8 socket drive. But I guess I will go with Motion Pro bits, since I can't find 3/8 socket drive JIS. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Motion-Pro-...ash=item2369ad5289:g:UPsAAOSwi0RX06zG&vxp=mtr And of course the 3/8 drive ones are just 1/4 bits in 3/8 socket drive holders, my Craftsman ones are only held in by spring so you can replace the bit, the Snap On's are bonded in.
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carcajou
Well-known member
I just ordered a couple Vessel megadora 980's off amazon. I thought they were quite reasonably priced and act as impact drivers also.
dnschmidt
Well-known member
Pureleaf, this is what you need if you want to hit the screwdriver with a hammer. This tool is built for that purpose and is top quality. It self contains a rotating mechanism that moves with a hammer strike. The first is the six inch version the second the four inch version.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003BGZ9CO/?tag=atomicindus08-20
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003BI8HHQ/?tag=atomicindus08-20
Because of the rotating mechanism built into them they are not as well balanced as the TOPTUL that you bought from me so as a normal screwdriver they aren't that good due to poor weight distribution. However, as an impacting driver they're impossible to beat.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003BGZ9CO/?tag=atomicindus08-20
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003BI8HHQ/?tag=atomicindus08-20
Because of the rotating mechanism built into them they are not as well balanced as the TOPTUL that you bought from me so as a normal screwdriver they aren't that good due to poor weight distribution. However, as an impacting driver they're impossible to beat.
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dnschmidt
Well-known member
The bit with the magnetic collar has the conventional US style back end. It will fit any American impact driver or cordless screwdriver. The only bits TOPTUL sells that have the longer Japanese back end on the bits are the ACR style.
jl4c
Well-known member
I just used a P3-150 Megadora Impacta 980 today on my Honda Pilot. I had to change a wheel hub bearing assembly (hit a 3-ton floorjack at 80mph that someone kindly left on the interstate) today and I used the Megadora Impacta instead of my regular impact tool. The P3 bit in my regular impact tool isn't the best fit in the brake rotor screws but the Megadora was perfect.