Junkmanryan
Well-known member
Thread has derailed. Tell me how much of a ****** person I am.
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Can you teach woodworking?
- Thread starter Junkmanryan
- Start date
Hmm, in woodshop class for 2 yrs & that's the best he can do? maybe he should choose another occupation.
Kaizen
Well-known member
The student has an eye for grain pattern at least. honestly I see several issues with your table and I'm by no means a pro. several years of lessons? show him how to joint with a plane and a vice to start.
djjsr
Well-known member
You can learn a lot by looking at fine furniture. Find a store that sells good quality and take him on a field trip. If he can see what the end result should be, it may help.
ZRX61
Well-known member
Holy ****, could he not see how out of square that is? How the hell does he not know to make both end of a ******** table top the same width? Seriously, WTF happened to that one piece of wood on the right???
Where the hell is he taking classes? If that's the best he can do after two years someone needs to go to the class & have a word with the instructor. Apparently he didn't even teach your guy how to read a tape measure or use a square.
PugetDude
ALLIANCE MEMBER
bczygan
Well-known member
Both those tables are clunky and assault the eye. No design.
Boards were just stuck together with no attention to grain pattern.
Furniture should have delicate proportions that sing.
Those tables stomp into the room with muddy boots.
First, he should LOVE the beauty of different woods. He should delight in the perfection of a minimalist shaker piece. He should treasure a Pennsylvania Highboy or a claw and ball foot.
There are schools and there are schools. What kind of students are coming out of his?
We live in an industrial age. Manufactured objects fill all our basic needs for a minimum price.
For something handmade to command the price that it must, it must be exquisitely made. It must have artistry. He needs to learn the craft and then carry his skills further into that realm of art, to find a market.
Sorry, but I've burned up for firewood, better furniture than those examples.
If you want him to learn what he needs to, find him a mentor.
What he is doing so far isn't even good enough for rough carpentry.
Bill
Boards were just stuck together with no attention to grain pattern.
Furniture should have delicate proportions that sing.
Those tables stomp into the room with muddy boots.
First, he should LOVE the beauty of different woods. He should delight in the perfection of a minimalist shaker piece. He should treasure a Pennsylvania Highboy or a claw and ball foot.
There are schools and there are schools. What kind of students are coming out of his?
We live in an industrial age. Manufactured objects fill all our basic needs for a minimum price.
For something handmade to command the price that it must, it must be exquisitely made. It must have artistry. He needs to learn the craft and then carry his skills further into that realm of art, to find a market.
Sorry, but I've burned up for firewood, better furniture than those examples.
If you want him to learn what he needs to, find him a mentor.
What he is doing so far isn't even good enough for rough carpentry.
Bill
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OP
Junkmanryan
Well-known member
I take it the one I built in 1st post is grouped into that?
Off-Street Parking
Well-known member
It's so far off, and so obvious, I can't help but wonder if the friend did it on purpose to troll him?
SD396
Well-known member
I would seriously question what they have been teaching him for the last two years. However everyone learns at a different pace.
Definitely go back to the basics and show him what the problems are and how to do it properly. Never assume he knows what he is doing or understands what you are talking about. I find just watching the way someone works tells a lot about their skills and abilities and whether or not they have what it takes to do the job. Also, having a passion for what you are learning goes a long ways to being a successful woodworker.
Above all, make sure he knows the safe usage of the tools involved.
Definitely go back to the basics and show him what the problems are and how to do it properly. Never assume he knows what he is doing or understands what you are talking about. I find just watching the way someone works tells a lot about their skills and abilities and whether or not they have what it takes to do the job. Also, having a passion for what you are learning goes a long ways to being a successful woodworker.
Above all, make sure he knows the safe usage of the tools involved.
ddawg16
Well-known member
Some get it...some don't. Welding skills are the same.
This is something I built a few years ago....
This is something I built a few years ago....
RivennHewn
Well-known member
I'd be a little embarrassed if ya'll saw my 1st attempts at furniture building.
Everybody comes at woodworking from a different place, and experiences.
As long as he is enjoying the process of learning, I hope he continues.
Maybe build the next project with him.
Everybody comes at woodworking from a different place, and experiences.
As long as he is enjoying the process of learning, I hope he continues.
Maybe build the next project with him.
ZRX61
Well-known member
It's so far off, and so obvious, I can't help but wonder if the friend did it on purpose to troll him?
I had the same thought, I've seen better work from kids in kindergarden.
ZRX61
Well-known member
I think he would benefit from a book, at least it would have pictures. Places like Barnes & Noble have a ton of wood butchery books.
gnpenning
Well-known member
Not sure how you can blame it on the school. The teachers job is to be a guide. It is up to the student to do the learning. You can't force people to learn. The best instructor in the world can't make everyone a pro. Heaven forbid that anyone tell Johnny to sit down and shut up and do his work and leave his neighbor alone and not expect his parents to be there crying and threatening to sue, because they are picking on Johnny. To bad they can't send Johnny to his parents work and let him bother them at their job instead of bothering the school staff at their job.
He maybe a slow learner or his skills and talents are suited to another profession.
Blaming others for our mistakes is one of the big problems with this country has right now.
Junkman this your friend and I'm sure you have talked to him about this and other issues. What is his response? Is he interested in learning from his mistakes and moving forward?
He maybe a slow learner or his skills and talents are suited to another profession.
Blaming others for our mistakes is one of the big problems with this country has right now.
Junkman this your friend and I'm sure you have talked to him about this and other issues. What is his response? Is he interested in learning from his mistakes and moving forward?
bczygan
Well-known member
Honestly evaluate it and you know it is. Not saying that to denigrate it. It is a utilitarian piece, just a step or two above 2x4's and 16 penny nails. It has it's purpose, especially in the learning process. It is a step above his.
I would be proud of actually constructing a piece of furniture. I never have myself. But it isn't something you could sell. You could never even recoup the cost of the materials, much less the labor.
Bill
BillK
Well-known member
Ryan,
I have been saying for years that some skills cannot be taught, you have to be born with them. If your student cannot at least make a square table top after two years in woodworking school, then he should probably consider a different choice of careers. If he does not realize that the table is that far out of whack, then he will probably never be any good at any type of mechanical work.
As far as the other comments on appearance, that really depends on the desired "look" of a piece. I actually like your table other than the exposed screw holes on the end. I am in the planning process to make a coffee table for our rec room and it will have a similar appearance.
I have been saying for years that some skills cannot be taught, you have to be born with them. If your student cannot at least make a square table top after two years in woodworking school, then he should probably consider a different choice of careers. If he does not realize that the table is that far out of whack, then he will probably never be any good at any type of mechanical work.
As far as the other comments on appearance, that really depends on the desired "look" of a piece. I actually like your table other than the exposed screw holes on the end. I am in the planning process to make a coffee table for our rec room and it will have a similar appearance.
to answer your question, no, I cannot teach woodworking.
I've tried. usually guys come over to use the shop and have me help them build something. I end up doing all the work while they watch. I try to explain why I am doing something, how to properly setup tools, the method, the processes, they usually don't get it...
here is my first table. actually my very first real piece of furniture I made in my shop as an adult since high school. followed plans from norm Abrams book...
took a few tries with the taper jig and ruined a couple of legs before I got it right, and the grain flows down instead of up on one of them, but it's how you learn--by doing.
you either get it or you don't...
I've tried. usually guys come over to use the shop and have me help them build something. I end up doing all the work while they watch. I try to explain why I am doing something, how to properly setup tools, the method, the processes, they usually don't get it...
here is my first table. actually my very first real piece of furniture I made in my shop as an adult since high school. followed plans from norm Abrams book...
took a few tries with the taper jig and ruined a couple of legs before I got it right, and the grain flows down instead of up on one of them, but it's how you learn--by doing.
you either get it or you don't...
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bczygan
Well-known member
Leaflessshadetree
Well-known member
As with many things attention to detail makes all the difference.
Looking at the big picture a table is a table.
In many cases his would work just as well as yours. In certain decors his would actually fit in better (it is simpler, more rustic).
Then factor in time and cost.
If you want to teach something like that you need to teach the details. Jointing, planing, sanding. Dowels, rabbits, dados, dovetails, etc...... After learning the details people start noticing the details.
Build a table like this one is just too generic a statement. Did he have any plans, measurements, pictures?
BTW: In most classes the instructors don't take the time to teach each student step by step and critique the small details.
Looking at the big picture a table is a table.
In many cases his would work just as well as yours. In certain decors his would actually fit in better (it is simpler, more rustic).
Then factor in time and cost.
If you want to teach something like that you need to teach the details. Jointing, planing, sanding. Dowels, rabbits, dados, dovetails, etc...... After learning the details people start noticing the details.
Build a table like this one is just too generic a statement. Did he have any plans, measurements, pictures?
BTW: In most classes the instructors don't take the time to teach each student step by step and critique the small details.
AldeanFan
Well-known member
I think there are two kinds of woodworkers, those that can follow plans, and those who can build without plans.
I can build some pretty nice stuff if I follow plans from a book or a magazine. The trick is to follow the plans to the letter. I can also take a pattern off of an existing price and copy it exactly, but I often waste a lot of time and create a lot of scrap trying to figure out to assemble things without plans.
Without plans I can't build much more than a bookshelf. I know what a table looks like, and I know lots of jointery skills but if you said go in to the garage and build a coffee table without plans it would likely come out terrible.
Kind of like golf. I can swing a club pretty good and put ok, but once I'm on the course I can't put it all together in to something resembling a good round of golf.
I can build some pretty nice stuff if I follow plans from a book or a magazine. The trick is to follow the plans to the letter. I can also take a pattern off of an existing price and copy it exactly, but I often waste a lot of time and create a lot of scrap trying to figure out to assemble things without plans.
Without plans I can't build much more than a bookshelf. I know what a table looks like, and I know lots of jointery skills but if you said go in to the garage and build a coffee table without plans it would likely come out terrible.
Kind of like golf. I can swing a club pretty good and put ok, but once I'm on the course I can't put it all together in to something resembling a good round of golf.
You can teach any skill and person can learn any skill...........with that person putting the right amount effort.
Woodworking and general design could be compared to music or cooking........it was said early some get it some don't. I would love to learn to play the guitar.......but I know my limitations. If the power goes out and table saw and mig won't work.....I may decide to put the right amount of effort into the guitar.
Woodworking and general design could be compared to music or cooking........it was said early some get it some don't. I would love to learn to play the guitar.......but I know my limitations. If the power goes out and table saw and mig won't work.....I may decide to put the right amount of effort into the guitar.
gtae07
Well-known member
I don't know if I'd be too hard on the guy without knowing what the instruction is like. We don't know what the guy's background is, what experience he's had. Learning to square things properly and measure right isn't innate knowledge; you have to learn it. Most everyone here did at some point, many of us at so early an age we don't distinctly remember. But someone still taught it to us.
If you take someone who's had no previous exposure to any kind of woodworking or mechanics or anything like that, and throw them into a project expecting them to just know the fundamentals you take for granted, you're going to be sorely disappointed. You might have to start from the very beginning--how to read a tape measure, basic shop safety, fundamentals of making square cuts and checking squareness of an assembly, etc. If he's been taught those things and still can't do it, then yeah, maybe he's not cut out (heh heh) for this kind of thing. But he might not even know enough to know that what he's doing is wrong.
Note that this is also a distinct set of skills separate from the aesthetic design. I have very little aesthetic ability, so anything you ask me to make will be clunky and will definitely "assault the eye". But it will be square within standard tolerances and so overbuilt you could toss it across the room and then park a car on it.
I'm an engineer, not an artist
If you take someone who's had no previous exposure to any kind of woodworking or mechanics or anything like that, and throw them into a project expecting them to just know the fundamentals you take for granted, you're going to be sorely disappointed. You might have to start from the very beginning--how to read a tape measure, basic shop safety, fundamentals of making square cuts and checking squareness of an assembly, etc. If he's been taught those things and still can't do it, then yeah, maybe he's not cut out (heh heh) for this kind of thing. But he might not even know enough to know that what he's doing is wrong.
Note that this is also a distinct set of skills separate from the aesthetic design. I have very little aesthetic ability, so anything you ask me to make will be clunky and will definitely "assault the eye". But it will be square within standard tolerances and so overbuilt you could toss it across the room and then park a car on it.
I'm an engineer, not an artist
Falcon67
Well-known member
Agree. And nice table. That looks like what we were doing in high school (and better), well a few of us. The shop teacher was a little old lady about 4'10" and she ruled with an iron fist. That includes the 250+ lb line backers. No fear. If you followed her lead, she could help you turn dead wood into fine furniture with ease. A few of us sold several pieces. I have not done much since then, mostly because I'm a car guy and didn't/don't have the proper equipment to do fine work. Good hand made furniture seems to always have a market, so I might regret not staying with it.
Moose364
Well-known member
Send him to the home depot class they have on Sat morning, I think he will learn more there than he has in 2 years of class, looks like he may need to start out learning to read a tape measure, you would be surprised at how many people cannot read one.
You gotta be joking. To post a friend's project and troll it on the internet is beyond dumb. Now that that's out of the way...
If you want to show off your project being way nicer than someone else's you first need to make sure that yours is worth showing. How the hell are you going to rip on someone else's furniture when yours is an unsanded, mixed-grain mess with no joinery and a bazillion screw holes. You literally screwed a bunch of boards together at right angles. Maybe some biscuits in there, I guess, but my money is on pocket screws for the top. Assuming you have a table saw you could have at least jointed the table top boards so you wouldn't have those huge gaps (you know, where all the lint is collected). Would it really be that hard to rip a 45 down those legs and biscuit them together? No, but you're pretty quick to get down on a buddy for being crappy at it too. I'll give you a pass on the lumber mill saw marks on the top since I assume you were going for the rustic look.
Look man, I understand this post sounds rough, but for god's sake... How would you feel if you sucked at something (like you do at woodworking), and your so-called "friend" posted pics of it on the internet and basically made fun of how ****** it was? Especially if the guy doing the bashing wan't very good at it himself. You can be pissed at me if you want, but you should probably be told that you're a ****** friend and take some of your own medicine. Since the guy can't stick up for himself then consider me doing it for him.
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It did turn out nice and I am proud of it, especially since it's my first project. But I had shop class in middle school (like most everyone my age, it was required) so I at least had a background in using tools and stuff. when I first got into woodworking as an adult, I bought every magazine, book of plans, etc. and that is what helped me learn to get beyond just following directions and on to designing and building from scratch...also watching a lot of Norm Abrams and seeing his approach to designing something he saw...
sad thing is, even judging from a lot of posts on here, most people have never picked up a real magazine or book...too bad, because they are filled with tips, tricks, jigs, how-to, etc. and can be a real help....but like I posted. most of my friends just want a particular piece of furniture they (or wife) saw and want help making it, but not TRULY interested in learning the skills and craftsmanship to become a decent woodworker...plus I have no patience for stupid or lazy people...
CSRPenFab
Well-known member
Woodworking can be taught to anyone with basic skills. For example, I can teach someone tool basics, how to measure, how to select wood, and how to follow a plan to build a given object.
Now "craftsmanship" is a whole different animal. Teaching someone the skill of "creating" something unique and original can only be done to those who have some "inner talent"....
Now "craftsmanship" is a whole different animal. Teaching someone the skill of "creating" something unique and original can only be done to those who have some "inner talent"....
creativecars
Well-known member
Yes I can.
First thing I wonder about is how old is your friend? What type of school is he attending and how much time are they allowed to really work. Many schools have cut so far back they spend too much time in a book and not enough with hands on skills. What equipment do they have available?
Lots of questions here. Woodworking is not rocket surgery, but making it functional and aesthetically pleasing takes work, practice and a certain eye.
First thing I wonder about is how old is your friend? What type of school is he attending and how much time are they allowed to really work. Many schools have cut so far back they spend too much time in a book and not enough with hands on skills. What equipment do they have available?
Lots of questions here. Woodworking is not rocket surgery, but making it functional and aesthetically pleasing takes work, practice and a certain eye.
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OP
Junkmanryan
Well-known member
Ok, I'll show him a 3000 dollar table and tell him to build it. That way he knows what he is building is right.
58Yeoman
Well-known member
Lookin' good, ddawg.
trainer
Well-known member
The thing with woodworking is that there is room for a lifetime of learning.
Start by learning to make accurate measurements and straight square cuts.
Use the joinery method that your skill and equipment level allows, but keep experimenting on scraps and expanding your skill set.
Keep your projects simple at first and within your abilities. Once you can consistantly get good results, then take on more complicated items.
I am currently building new kitchen cabinets to replace ones that I built 25 years ago. While tearing out the old ones, It was pretty easy to see where my skill set had advanced.
Start by learning to make accurate measurements and straight square cuts.
Use the joinery method that your skill and equipment level allows, but keep experimenting on scraps and expanding your skill set.
Keep your projects simple at first and within your abilities. Once you can consistantly get good results, then take on more complicated items.
I am currently building new kitchen cabinets to replace ones that I built 25 years ago. While tearing out the old ones, It was pretty easy to see where my skill set had advanced.
bczygan
Well-known member
Try the Sloyd method to teach him, and you might learn a thing or two while doing it.
https://books.google.com/books?id=wisaAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=related:0KrXmdY_LPgdDW4Y&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false
I will say that his making the effort to actually build the table, shows an interest. If you can build on that with good teaching methods, there can be teaching and learning going on.
If you are going to teach, you need to learn how to do that. It isn't a skill you can conjure out of thin air. You need to get a copy of "The Fundamentals of Instruction". This will teach you how to teach. Here is a link to a synopsis of "The Fundamentals of Instruction". It is used for flight training, but is directly applicable to ALL types of instruction and teaching.
http://www.aerosports.org/training/training-materials/study-guide-for-the-fundamentals-of-instruction
Then you need a lesson plan. The Sloyd book is one option. There are others, or you can make up your own.
Bill
https://books.google.com/books?id=wisaAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=related:0KrXmdY_LPgdDW4Y&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false
I will say that his making the effort to actually build the table, shows an interest. If you can build on that with good teaching methods, there can be teaching and learning going on.
If you are going to teach, you need to learn how to do that. It isn't a skill you can conjure out of thin air. You need to get a copy of "The Fundamentals of Instruction". This will teach you how to teach. Here is a link to a synopsis of "The Fundamentals of Instruction". It is used for flight training, but is directly applicable to ALL types of instruction and teaching.
http://www.aerosports.org/training/training-materials/study-guide-for-the-fundamentals-of-instruction
Then you need a lesson plan. The Sloyd book is one option. There are others, or you can make up your own.
Bill
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pmiranda
Well-known member
Sounds good to me!
Seriously, might as well have something to strive for... What's important is trying something, then honestly evaluating what could have been better.
His joining looks pretty tight (hard to tell from just a picture)... no idea how he got the top crooked unless he was building a table specifically to place in a corner where he wanted it longer on one end and match up with a given depth of another piece of furniture.
I agree with starting on a nice, soft, cheap wood since it's easier and safer to work with. Some hardwoods need a practiced hand and good sharp tools to prevent dangerous accidents. I'd try and lay out a series of skills to learn, like:
grain selection
joinery (biscuits, pocket screws, mortice and tenon, etc. when to glue and when to allow room for movement...)
tapered cuts
curved cuts
compound cuts
finish sanding
staining
sealing
etc.
There are little tricks and art to all of these and many more skills that you just have to try before you get used to it. Some of it can be done will basic tools and others I wouldn't attempt without something nicer, but everybody can learn something by comparing their work with others.
You're completely dodging the point...which was that you telling us your friend ***** at building furniture would be like me telling someone how bad their golf swing is when I'm a 10 handicap.
Your friend sounds like he's genuinely trying to put something together (otherwise why would he go through the trouble?). Either be a good dude and help him out or tell him you're not interested; easy enough. Don't be a **** and post his stuff online just so people can rag on it.
By the way, if you ever want to learn how to edge joint wood, use a sander, or make joinery that doesn't involve shooting screws everywhere (since it appears you don't) just ask. We'll grab a cold one and go out to my garage and I'll teach you. I won't be a d-bag and post your ****-ups online.
Feels kinda crappy, huh?
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pmiranda
Well-known member
My racing buddies have a saying: "cruel but fair". We give each other alot of grief but we learn alot from honesty.
Jess
Well-known member
These days, workshop skills are not being passed on like years ago. In my family, when we came to this country, we had nothing and little money. My father was able to build and repair pretty much anything and his son's were taught that if you needed it and couldn't afford to buy it, you built it. His legacy is alive today in the workshops of my brothers and my own. We all start from somewhere and if there isn't any workshop hobby stuff going on at home, then it takes longer to get there. Be patient, try to show how to improve on the next project and it will come along. After all these years, I'm still learning and have become my own best critic. Any outcome of an effort to create something is better than young people sitting and texting or playing video games in the dark.
Encourage, don't discourage...
Encourage, don't discourage...
info2x
Well-known member
Gee I hope so. I'm planning on building the vanity for my new bathroom.
OP
Junkmanryan
Well-known member
Have you gone to the thread where everyone laughs at customer cars and spoken up? Back on track, he's not doing it to get good at it, hes doing it because he thinks hes going to make a ton of money off of it. Never gotten any credit for giving him unlimited shop use, giving him free wood, or storing all of his stuff for months. I was well aware that the table wasn't a piece of fine furniture. It was made from some wood that I got off an old building. It was a project that I threw together in a couple of hours two years ago. I thought it would be a good start for him, but now I think I might let him figure it out for himself.