Gfi outlet problem

[machsnell]

I have 4 20 amp circuits wired in garage with the first outlet in the circuit being a gfi outlet.

I wired it late at night and I reversed the line and load wires.

Didn't work and looked in and saw my mistake.

I really wired correctly and it worked fine.

3 days later I go out and it doesn't work.

I reset it and it immediately trips. Immediately like my finger doesn't leave button

I open it up and remove the load side and it is works fine. I didn't remove the tied together grounds just the hot and neutral load side.

7 outlets downstream. I don't think I touched any of these after I fixed earlier mistake but I might have been putting on cover plates.

What is my best route to find problem?



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[zmaxmotorsports]

Is anything plugged in down stream from the gfci?

 

[machsnell]

No nothing.

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[bottom feeder]

Do you have a spare GFCI outlet that you can try? Maybe the original is defective or got fried.

 

[machsnell]

Yes will try now

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[the gypsy]

Is it a 20 amp GFCI or the 15 amp?

 

[machsnell]

Tried another and the same thing it trips it automatically.

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[machsnell]

Both were 20 amp gfci's

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[The Cobbler]

I would do the cut in half approach. disconnect the outlet that's half way to the last one and try the gfi, if it trips your problem is in the forst half, if it doesn't trip, problem is in last half. then try the cut in half again, narrow it down that way .

 

[machsnell]

Got it. Will report back

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[Rookie2]

I think you have to open up each outlet and check the wiring for nicks etc (when you shoved the outlet in ).

 

[checkthisout]

Hook the load side back up and just work your way down the line pulling out device and removing and inspecting the wires until you find the wire that got nicked.

I would: Pull the next outlet out, attempt to reset, if no reset, remove power wires from outlet, attempt to reset, if it resets, then move to next out down the line and repeat the process.

 

[landyacht]

Also check your bare ground wire didn't get pushed up against the neutral screw on one of your downstream outlets when you pushed them in. That will cause nuisance tripping

 

[Mustang51js]

Also check your bare ground wire didn't get pushed up against the neutral screw on one of your downstream outlets when you pushed them in. That will cause nuisance tripping

More than likely this is what happened

 

[machsnell]

So I figured out what happened.

One of my guys was there framing out a small wall and moved 3 receptacles out. He wired two of them by the time I was back there.
I told him not to wire anything in the future that I was doing all 9f the wiring and wanted to know that is was all correct.

Anyway he tied 2 grounds together and left 9ne long but never put one 9f the green wire nuts on it. They were touching but definitely not getting great contact.

I opened up the other receptacle he has done and the screws were looser than they should have been and the wire was a little mangled and the grounds were the same. Ugh!

I don't think they even use a ground in Honduras.

I guess that is why it worked at first but maybe when face plate went on it moved the receptacle enough to disrupt the ground.

Thanks for the help all.


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[Speedy Petey]

Is it a 20 amp GFCI or the 15 amp?

What would this have to do with it??

 

[Speedy Petey]

I would do the cut in half approach. disconnect the outlet that's half way to the last one and try the gfi, if it trips your problem is in the forst half, if it doesn't trip, problem is in last half. then try the cut in half again, narrow it down that way .

In situations like this this is always your best approach.

 

[machsnell]

Yes made life easier than undoing all unecessarily. Gfci s are delicate huh? Good thing in reality

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[6t7gto]

Interesting that you are saying the ground caused it.
Because GFCI's can be used on a two wire system without a ground.

 

[machsnell]

That is the only thing I can attribute it to. I only temp wired it but isolated it to that circuit. I really did the connections and pigtails also is it possible one of those was more likely the issue?

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[justsam]

Interesting that you are saying the ground caused it.
Because GFCI's can be used on a two wire system without a ground.

GFCIs look for equal current on the hot and neutral, within 5ma of one another.

In a typical three wire receptacle, if the hot lead touches the ground, than there is a short, and most likely the breaker will trip.

If the ground wire touches neutral, than the ground wire is carrying part of the current that should all be on the neutral. This causes the GFCI to trip.

You are correct that a GFCI does not need to have a ground, since as stated, it really just looks to be sure there is equal current on hot and neutral.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Interesting that you are saying the ground caused it.
Because GFCI's can be used on a two wire system without a ground.

CONCUR and have done it in an older house. (This is safer than one of those 3-to-2 adapters which is not properly grounded.)

In theory, GFCI only looks at current in the HOT and NEUTRAL conductors. Ground is ignored.

Intermittents, even on the ground ... who know what could happen !

 

[tac]

GFCIs look for equal current on the hot and neutral, within 5ma of one another.

In a typical three wire receptacle, if the hot lead touches the ground, than there is a short, and most likely the breaker will trip.

If the ground wire touches neutral, than the ground wire is carrying part of the current that should all be on the neutral. This causes the GFCI to trip.

You are correct that a GFCI does not need to have a ground, since as stated, it really just looks to be sure there is equal current on hot and neutral.

I agree

 

[machsnell]

alright so i thought i had this figured out.

i narrowed it down to one of my outlets that i though was the problem because the grounds werent tied together. then you all told me ground didnt matter.

when i disconnect outlet 4 and separate the hots and neutrals (left ground tied together) the gfi stays on.

This outlet has one line in and two lines out. so it goes to one outlet below and continues along the wall to 3 more outlets.

when i connected the outlet it tripped.

i disconncted the next outlet in line and it still stays tripped.

i disconnected 5 outlet from screws that had the pigtail hot and pigtail neutral and the pigtail ground connected as well as the lower set of screws which had the outlet below. and it tripped.

i hope i explained this well enough to follow.

what do i do next? i am totally confused.

 

[machsnell]

the only other possibility? is one neutral had a nick in the insulation. it is the one with the electrical tape wrapped around it. I will put white on there so no one gets confused and thinks its a hot i just didnt have any at the moment.

the wire didnt look damaged it looked like my employee was careless stripping the insulation on the romex.

would this cause it to trip?

 

[checkthisout]

when i connected the outlet it tripped..

No gonna be a bit of a ***** here...don't mind my prickedness and no you're not explaining it will enough to follow.

Do 1 thing at a time. It's stupid simple. Don't make it complicated.

At your current outlet, as long you just have incoming power hooked up it's ok, right?

Ok, if you have two wires going out, which wire going out causes it to fail to reset?

Ok, now on the loop that fails do the same thing. Go down and disconnect the OUTGOING wires from each outlet and inspect the wiring until the GFCI will reset.

 

[checkthisout]

the only other possibility? is one neutral had a nick in the insulation. it is the one with the electrical tape wrapped around it. I will put white on there so no one gets confused and thinks its a hot i just didnt have any at the moment.

the wire didnt look damaged it looked like my employee was careless stripping the insulation on the romex.

would this cause it to trip?

The neutral touching the ground, or the hot touching a neutral in a downstream outlet will cause an upstream GFCI to trip.

 

[The Cobbler]

looks like one of your neutrals has black tape on it, what is that for? by chance is it for a switch ?

 

[machsnell]

prickness i am good with.

and i feel like a numbnut.

i was confused because i had one outlet out of sequence on the ceiling that was the next in line after outlet 5" and so when i checked what i thought was outlet 6 i was checking outlet 7 and as soon as i figured it out sure enough...

the ground was hitting the neutral just as previous posters had said. you can see the green plastic on the ground that scraped the neutral screw if you look close

doh.....

thanks

 

[machsnell]

there was a nick in the insulation. i didnt have white tape but i will put white elec tape on it so it doesnt confuse anyone.

 

[checkthisout]

prickness i am good with.

and i feel like a numbnut.

i was confused because i had one outlet out of sequence on the ceiling that was the next in line after outlet 5" and so when i checked what i thought was outlet 6 i was checking outlet 7 and as soon as i figured it out sure enough...

the ground was hitting the neutral just as previous posters had said. you can see the green plastic on the ground that scraped the neutral screw if you look close

doh.....

thanks

Neatly accordioning (I made up a word!) wires into a box is an art I have yet to master.