Tile install goes bad. What would you do?

[C2 Turbo]

Tile: Marble 18x18
Space: 1/8th

The first tile guys brother got diagnosed with a cancer so he left without any notice

Hired another guy to finish installing the marble and the medallion that was custom cut by the first tiler.

During the install, the tile work looked good until I saw the final product that showed lots of issues like, lippage, inconsistent spacing, broken/chipped tiles etc

Once medallion was installed, I wasn't happy with it's finish either, to which he agreed and said he would do it again without any mention of extra charge.

The following 2 days, he spent taking those medallion pieces off (already set in) and adjusting them not to mention making the new ones as he kept breaking them up.

Few days ago, I had another tile guy come over and looked at his work and I was told it was a lousy job he was doing

I finally told the current to pack his stuff and move on, which seems to have pissed him off.

He now gave me an invoice for the amount originally quoted for the work along with 2 extra days spent trying fixing the medallion tiles, which he kept
breaking them off.

So I now have a foyer with no medallion and with badly installed tiles (Pict 5) which he thinks is acceptable considering he's coming after another guy.

My question is:

How do I pay him? He did install the medallion and the tiles but with big gaps, broken tips, butted tiles etc .

He himself volunteered to redo the medallion and after 2 days he still wasn't getting any where with it?

He doesn't see anything wrong with the tiles so I don't want him to continue working on the project

The new tile guy would have to re-do the entire foyer along with the medallion.

Please review the pictures of his work yourself

Picture 4 shows a small piece which is not even aligned right .

Thanks

 

[Cairo94507]

More so than other trades, this seems to be one where you actually need to go look at their completed work on other similar projects and talk to those owners to see how they felt about the installer and his work.

I hope you resolve these issues.

 

[J king]

Agree it isn't up to the standard of your home. It looks like a beautiful home and deserves a professional finish

 

[duneslider]

Just to preface this...installing polished marble with tight joints (those look more like 1/16" joints but pictures don't do justice) is probably the MOST difficult job you can sign up for as a tile guy. There is basically zero room for error. If the tiles aren't dead flat you will see it, if the tiles aren't dead straight you will see it. There is no way to fake it till you make it with this sort of installation. Any good tile setter will charge a premium for this sort of installation because it is more difficult.

Did you have a contract signed with this new tile guy? Not positive how things work in your state in mine it is pretty difficult to insist on getting paid if there is no contract. Poor workmanship is also a good reason NOT to pay. It is possible he can try to put a lien on your house which could cause issues for you at closing (if this is a new house). If he is a licensed contractor you may want to look at filing a complaint with the licensing board, that will help you if he does in fact place a lien.

I think you made a mistake in not stopping the project as soon as you noticed the work was not up to your standards. You should have stopped right then and had this conversation with him.

If his work is much worse than the first guys work, document that as you will need it if this gets nasty.

I guess this will come down to how much of a nice guy you want to be. If you wanted to be nice you could call the guy and let him know that the work he did doesn't meet the standards of the work performed by the previous installer, he has issues with lippage and consistent grout joints. Maybe you can be willing to pay for the materials he bought just to be nice but you are not willing to pay for work that will need to be torn out and re-done.

This really is sort of a tough one though, you should have stopped him as soon as the work looked sub-par and I get the feeling you let him keep going hoping it would be okay.

I have had a few situation where people weren't happy with my work (mostly layout judgement calls) and what made me the most mad was that they didn't say anything until I was totally done. Everyone ended up a loser in those situations.

 

[AVI656]

Thank you for your post.

The problem in this day an age that good tile setters are dying off. new workers who join the Stone and tile setting aren't trained enough if at all in a mud set skills, which you need in order to install stone products.

setters today rely on tools to prevent kickers, see example bellow.

https://prosupplycenter.com/product/2398/qep-lash-tile-leveling-wedges-and-clips/c33/

one option to consider is to get a professional to sand and re-polish the floor. might be expensive!

Always get recommendation, and see prior work photos the installer has done.

Always sign a contract, document everything, I would take the person to small claims court, for the damages he has caused.

 

[Kevin54]

Take a lot of pics of everything that is wrong, because chances are it will end up in court. And the more pics you have the better. Would I have been happy? I doubt it seeing that it is marble. Good Luck!!!

 

[Siegel1719]

Take a lot of pics of everything that is wrong, because chances are it will end up in court. And the more pics you have the better. Would I have been happy? I doubt it seeing that it is marble. Good Luck!!!

My thoughts exactly. I wouldn't pay him a dime. Contract or no contract if the job was not completed correctly I'm not paying. Document EVERYTHING and tell him if he wants to take it to court that is his decision.

Jeremy

 

[duneslider]

Thank you for your post.

The problem in this day an age that good tile setters are dying off. new workers who join the Stone and tile setting aren't trained enough if at all in a mud set skills, which you need in order to install stone products.

setters today rely on tools to prevent kickers, see example bellow.

https://prosupplycenter.com/product/2398/qep-lash-tile-leveling-wedges-and-clips/c33/

one option to consider is to get a professional to sand and re-polish the floor. might be expensive!

Always get recommendation, and see prior work photos the installer has done.

Always sign a contract, document everything, I would take the person to small claims court, for the damages he has caused.

Yes good tile setters are becoming harder to find but it is mostly because people aren't willing to pay for good installers. They would rather take the low bid, get screwed, fight with someone, and then pay to have it done again. A large part of my business was tearing out **** installs (mostly leaking showers) and redoing them the right way.

Mud work is good and has its place but it really isn't an option in most situations today. Homes aren't built to accommodate the buildup of the mud floor. Perfectly flat floors are just as achievable using today's technology.

 

[PWC Repair]

I hear about this kind of stuff every week from various contractors on homesites. I can't believe the people calling themselves craftsmen that don't know how to use a plumb, tape measure, and a level. On the one closeup pic of the medallion even I can see the edges aren't true or even lined up for that matter......what the hell? When I remodeled my 8'x11' utility room it was 3/4" out of square, no double studs at the door and no headers above the door OR window! I was so disgusted I knocked out the whole south wall and started over. If people are just gonna half *** the work then why even bother at all?


Rant over.

 

[C2 Turbo]

He keeps blaming the first guy for putting too much thin set under the Ditra which is causing the lippages LOL

Also he's claiming since 1 tile from the previously installed tiles seems to have moved just a little bit, has caused all the spacing issues and there's nothing he could have done about that. Blame the first guy not me LOL

The medallion pieces that he was cutting, he kept breaking their tips.

At 3-4 different places, we couldn't even get the knife blade in the between the tiles.

The medallion originallywas very nicely cut but as you can see from the pictures, he started aligning them wrong and then of-course the whole thing screwed up.

Look at some more pictures and see what you all think of his work.

He of-course, I kid you not, doesn't think anything wrong with his work?

What do you all say?

Btw, just got a text from him stating if no payment by Thu, then I will get the papers.

I guess I need to have attorney lined up myself too.

So do I have any chance of proving to court, how sub-standard his work was for me to have terminated his services?

 

[PWC Repair]

I think your chances are better than good. It won't take any kind of expert to see that he can't even seem to put together the puzzle with straight lines. I wouldn't expect that kind of work in a shower area....let alone in the middle of my entry way for everybody to see!

 

[LXCam]

That's a horrible job. As for his remarks that the previous contractor created his core issue. It is his responsibility to have informed you up front of potential issues prior to starting his installation. And stopped once he realized he wasn't able to complete a satisfactory installation. Don't pay him a dime and he if continues to harass you inform him you'll be taking this up with the contractors license board. Assuming he's licensed. And as mentioned, document every single detail both photographic and verbal discussions time and date included. You may need to pay a professional construction witness for a formal report. Out here for something like that you'd be looking at around a grand plus hourly for court appearances.

 

[slip knot]

just hope the judge/mediator sees it the same as you do. Just because you understand quality work doesn't mean they do. Be prepared to know what the "industry standard" is for tile work.

 

[C2 Turbo]

just hope the judge/mediator sees it the same as you do. Just because you understand quality work doesn't mean they do. Be prepared to know what the "industry standard" is for tile work.

This ^ exactly is the key.
The amount in question is $2400 for his labor not including what it would cost me to pay in parts/labor to fix the issue

Is it worth the hassle of going thru an attorney, I don't know but can I let him get away with his kind of shoddy work, I don't think so.

I have read extensively and the industry standard is 1/32" lippage on grout lines narrower than 1/8th which I just measured and came out to a credit card thickness

I will swing by the house tomorrow and do this CC check and see where it stands, though I have no doubt the lippage is two-three times the CC thickness

Don't forget, several tiles have no space in them either.

I have no doubt, the judge will make me pay him his invoice but minus the cost of fixing the floor.

 

[James-W]

I have no doubt, the judge will make me pay him his invoice but minus the cost of fixing the floor.

Assuming this is correct, have to checked on the cost of having it fixed properly. I know nothing about tile work, but I would assume the tiles have to be removed and the whole floor re-done. I am not even sure you can use the same tile over again. I am thinking it would cost more money to do the floor over again than it would have cost to do the job right in the first place. But not knowing all that much about laying tile I am only guessing on that.

 

[CNGsaves]

+1 that is crappy job. So sorry they butchered up your nice house with poor tile job.

Did you pay for all the tiles ??? Were they "one-of-a-kind" tiles, so they are not replaceable ??

Agree that you should document, document, document and not pay him a nickel.

Let the guy eat his "labor cost" which was **** . . . and you eat cost of tile.

 

[Slowgsr]

It's unfortunate when this kind of thing happens.

But a text ? The guy has no balls to call you. There is a good chance he's bluffing.

 

[ddawg16]

Even I could do better work than that.....

This is part of my master bath...



This is my family room.....and 24x24 tiles are not easy to work with....lipage is a problem.



And I did have one bad spot....I didn't see it until the next morning when it was too late.

 

[Slowgsr]

Even I could do better work than that.....

This is part of my master bath...



This is my family room.....and 24x24 tiles are not easy to work with....lipage is a problem.



And I did have one bad spot....I didn't see it until the next morning when it was too late.

Comparing porcelan to marble is like apples to oranges. No offence.

 

[duneslider]

I highly doubt he will take you to court and I wouldn't bother with a lawyer. This will be a small claims court kind of thing if it even goes that far.

You haven't alluded to whether you signed a contract, or if this guy even has a contractor's license and a business license. This all plays into how he can even handle the situation and how you could be affected.

It is really unprofessional that the first guy jumped ship on you too.

 

[Kevin54]

]I highly doubt he will take you to court and I wouldn't bother with a lawyer. This will be a small claims court kind of thing if it even goes that far.[/B]
You haven't alluded to whether you signed a contract, or if this guy even has a contractor's license and a business license. This all plays into how he can even handle the situation and how you could be affected.

It is really unprofessional that the first guy jumped ship on you too.

People will go to court for less. Plus he can throw a Mechanics Lien on the owner which can cause problems on down the road if he ever decides to sell.

Like I said above....get your ducks in a row. Have dates, and pics to back everything up. Even if he doesn't take you to court, you are going to have to take him to court. You just can't pull up the tile and reuse it. And to put new tile down, you are going to have to go through a lot of prep work now. Just remember.....you will have pics, the installer will not, and pics speaks volumes when it comes to testifying. Also download from a couple of places instructions on what it takes to lay marble tile. Also speak to the first installer as to what is wrong with what the second installer did. Get it in writing, and get it notarized. If you can, find a good installer that you are going to use to fix this *********** and see if he or she will go to court to testify in your behalf. Then you will also need you total cost as to what it is going to cost to fix everything, from what the tile cost originally, what the installation was going to cost, and what new tile will cost, and what the prep and new installation will cost. I don't think you can claim lawyer fees or court cost in the suit, but you may be able to get back filing fees.

Good luck and let us know how things turn out. BTW.....I'd hit him with papers before he hits you with papers just to show him you mean business.

 

[ddawg16]

Comparing porcelan to marble is like apples to oranges. No offence.

Only in looks....not how it's installed. Less forgiving on lipage due to the sharp edges....but other than than....I don't see any difference....and...yes, I've done marble.

 

[duneslider]

Only in looks....not how it's installed. Less forgiving on lipage due to the sharp edges....but other than than....I don't see any difference....and...yes, I've done marble.

Nope, tile and natural stone are very different. They don't even fall under the same governing bodies when it comes to installation standards. Tile falls under the TCNA and stone under MIA. Yes, materials used for both are similar/same and technique may be similar or the same also but it takes more skill and knowledge to do stone work correctly.

 

[duneslider]

People will go to court for less. Plus he can throw a Mechanics Lien on the owner which can cause problems on down the road if he ever decides to sell.

Like I said above....get your ducks in a row. Have dates, and pics to back everything up. Even if he doesn't take you to court, you are going to have to take him to court. You just can't pull up the tile and reuse it. And to put new tile down, you are going to have to go through a lot of prep work now. Just remember.....you will have pics, the installer will not, and pics speaks volumes when it comes to testifying. Also download from a couple of places instructions on what it takes to lay marble tile. Also speak to the first installer as to what is wrong with what the second installer did. Get it in writing, and get it notarized. If you can, find a good installer that you are going to use to fix this *********** and see if he or she will go to court to testify in your behalf. Then you will also need you total cost as to what it is going to cost to fix everything, from what the tile cost originally, what the installation was going to cost, and what new tile will cost, and what the prep and new installation will cost. I don't think you can claim lawyer fees or court cost in the suit, but you may be able to get back filing fees.

Good luck and let us know how things turn out. BTW.....I'd hit him with papers before he hits you with papers just to show him you mean business.

Yep, already went over the lien action. If he isn't licensed and there is not a contract he will have a DIFFICULT time getting a lien filed. On what basis does he have to claim a lien? The filing documents will be a signed contract saying John Doe will pay Mr. Tile Guy $XXXX to do noted work. Without a contract how can he prove anything? I could claim I did work for you and you aren't paying me even though we have only corresponded on the internet. Then, once the lien is filed he will have to present suit within a set time. Any judge will want to see the legal documents first. If there are none, all that will be there will be the Home Owner with pictures of crappy work.

The OP will also have a difficult time suing the tile guy if there is not a contract and if the guy isn't licensed. Sometimes we just have to learn from our mistakes and not try to sue everyone around. I think I have more problem with the first tile guy who bailed on a job in the middle of the project, that is extremely unprofessional.

I would contact the Licensing board and file a complaint.
Second, ask the tile guy for his insurance information so you can file a claim for poor workmanship. (if he is insured)
Third, ask him for a Lien release and you will give him a will not sue or pursue an insurance claim release.
Fourth, cut your losses and move on and find someone qualified to do the work.

 

[C2 Turbo]

Today, the builder called me and wanted to show me our shower floors that this scientist had just done.

When he was questioned by the builder, he said he isn't worried about that as tiling would have taken care of it?

So can this be fixed by tiling or do we need to re-slope the floor again.

The picture with Kardi's is the same shower with both sides and the third picture is of the second shower.

 

[duneslider]

Nope, can't be fixed by tiling. Looks like you caught yourself another winner. It appears the jigging for crappie is working!

Also, the kerdi needs to wrap the foam curbs. Just cause the curb is made from foam doesn't mean you don't have to wrap it in the kerdi.

Since you have a builder why are you worried about the other guy who sent the bill. It is the builders problem no? Tell the builder his subs **** and you aren't gonna accept it.

If I could make a recommendation, jump on the johnbridge forum and ask if anyone lives in your area. Louisville is a pretty big place and I think you may have some luck finding someone qualified to do the work. I am pretty sure I remember someone on that forum from your area.

 

[C2 Turbo]

.

I would contact the Licensing board and file a complaint.
Second, ask the tile guy for his insurance information so you can file a claim for poor workmanship. (if he is insured)
Third, ask him for a Lien release and you will give him a will not sue or pursue an insurance claim release.
Fourth, cut your losses and move on and find someone qualified to do the work.

How do I find out about the licensing board?

All ^ good info

Nope, can't be fixed by tiling. Looks like you caught yourself another winner. It appears the jigging for crappie is working!

Also, the kerdi needs to wrap the foam curbs. Just cause the curb is made from foam doesn't mean you don't have to wrap it in the kerdi.

Since you have a builder why are you worried about the other guy who sent the bill. It is the builders problem no? Tell the builder his subs **** and you aren't gonna accept it.

If I could make a recommendation, jump on the johnbridge forum and ask if anyone lives in your area. Louisville is a pretty big place and I think you may have some luck finding someone qualified to do the work. I am pretty sure I remember someone on that forum from your area.

We are towards the tail end of the project and have a different set up with the builder. I brought this tile guy in so I am responsible for his actions too.

I have a meeting schedule with an attorney tomorrow and with him day after.

I agree with Kevin54, that it will boil down to:

Then you will also need you total cost as to what it is going to cost to fix everything, from what the tile cost originally, what the installation was going to cost, and what new tile will cost, and what the prep and new installation will cost. I don't think you can claim lawyer fees or court cost in the suit, but you may be able to get back filing fees.

Thanks for all your support guys

 

[duneslider]

Best bet is to call the county office where you live and ask about contractor licensing. In Utah it is DOPL (Department of Occupational and Professional Licensing) and you can look up licenses and file complaints on their website. Not all states/counties/cities require licenses though so your mileage may vary.

Seriously though ask on the johnbridge forum to see if there are any local guys on there. If anyone is in that area they will offer up advice specific to your area and maybe even be able to help you with the work or point you in the right direction.

Your stuff will be hard in court because you can't recoup any of the work the first guy did. In reality, how much loss do you have from what the second guy did (not counting his labor) just the materials and time it would take to tear it out. From the pictures it didn't look like that would be very much.

 

[C2 Turbo]

The second guy tore two shower floors, re-did them as you see in the pictures and laid out the medallion ($700) and the foyer tile (approx. 180 sq ft)

Material wise, I am out about $1300 in Medallion/tile give and take + he's demanding $2400 for his work.

All of his medallion/Foyer work has to be done again ($1400) not to mention the shower floors needs to be fixed again

I am meeting with an attorney today and with him tomorrow

I will see if he agrees on taking his invoice minus the cost to remove the tile/cost of tile (old/new) and the labor to fix the medallion/foyer/shower floors

 

[Kevin54]

Yep, already went over the lien action. If he isn't licensed and there is not a contract he will have a DIFFICULT time getting a lien filed. On what basis does he have to claim a lien? The filing documents will be a signed contract saying John Doe will pay Mr. Tile Guy $XXXX to do noted work. Without a contract how can he prove anything? I could claim I did work for you and you aren't paying me even though we have only corresponded on the internet. Then, once the lien is filed he will have to present suit within a set time. Any judge will want to see the legal documents first. If there are none, all that will be there will be the Home Owner with pictures of crappy work.

The OP will also have a difficult time suing the tile guy if there is not a contract and if the guy isn't licensed. Sometimes we just have to learn from our mistakes and not try to sue everyone around. I think I have more problem with the first tile guy who bailed on a job in the middle of the project, that is extremely unprofessional.

I would contact the Licensing board and file a complaint.
Second, ask the tile guy for his insurance information so you can file a claim for poor workmanship. (if he is insured)
Third, ask him for a Lien release and you will give him a will not sue or pursue an insurance claim release.
Fourth, cut your losses and move on and find someone qualified to do the work.

He can file a lien for non payment. My son did it to a woman who fired him from a siding job. He filed a mechanics lien for a $35 application fee for non payment. She in turn took him to court but my son won. He got his money, but he never signed off on the lien. She ended up having two court appearances to get the lien removed. Plus she was filing bankruptcy and trying to sell off some apartments. She couldn't sell them until the lien was removed, or my son signed off on it. And he never signed off because he was pissed over not getting his money in the first place.

So yes, there can be a mechanics lien, plus court papers filed and a settlement made and the lien still in effect.

BTW......she finally got the lien removed after a few more court dates and taking 2 years to actually get it removed. My son never signed off on it to this day. And what made it bad for the woman he did work for and her bankruptcy, and her trying to sell one house in particular......every time a Realtor disclosed that there was a lien on the place, the potential buyers would run the other way. A lien against someone can really screw all sorts of thing up.

 

[C2 Turbo]

Met with the attorney today and bottom line is, is $2400 worth an attorney fees and the headache/hassle and all that

Meeting with him tomorrow, if he takes less good or else we will see

 

[duneslider]

I am no expert in Lien law but I have testified in court a number of times on behalf of home owners who had bad work done.

In all cases I was part of the judge asked about a written contract and in all cases the contractor did not provide a written contract and that hurt them.

In all cases the workmanship was poor, faulty, bad, etc. and the judge could tell that by the pictures. From what I heard the judges say, if the work performed doesn't enhance the structure or increase its value then it isn't "valid" work. The lien law isn't there to keep contractors safe from doing shoddy work, it is there to keep them from getting screwed by people who don't want to pay their bill.

Now, in most cases I was involved in the contractors insurance paid ME to fix the issues. In all cases the contractor lost in court because of poor workmanship and no written contract. In all cases the home was NOT enhanced because of the work of the contractor. These were all jobs valued at much more than $2400 dollars though and in some cases other damage resulted from the poor workmanship. In all cases the homeowners still lost money on the whole deal whether it was from attorney fees, loss of time, damage that wasn't covered by the insurance, etc. So, that is why my suggestion is to try to get the tile guy to back off without filing lawsuits or liens and cut your losses because if it does go to court you will probably win the suit but still lose in the end. If you all can come to a mutually agreement everyone will be happier.

 

[Cairo94507]

In CA, a licensed contractor has to be bonded. The minimum bond permitted is $15K. I had a bad job done (outside deck) and called the Contractor's licensing board and they gave me the insurance bond info and I made one call and filed the claim and within 1 week got a check for $15K. I did have a contractor come out and prepare a written report as to the defects that the insurance company wanted, that was about $2K. So I netted about $13K. I was amazed it was that easy.

 

[C2 Turbo]

Well I was able to come up with an agreement with him so he's gone.

The tear down started today and hopefully the tile install tomorrow

 

[LXCam]

Cool

 

[duneslider]

Good Luck! I hope you can get what you are hoping for, it looked like the design you were going for would look fantastic!

 

[C2 Turbo]

Finally the English guy came through

He just laid the medallion in today and it looked great. The angles look sharp and lines are straight not to mention the spaces.

This guy is awesome.

 

[kwoody51]

Looks fantastic!!!

You did the right thing! If you are anything like me accepting sub-par work will just make you hate yourself, pissed off at the sub and detract from the awesomeness that can be a new custom house.

It's ironic as as I walk around our house we've been in ~1.5 years I find another spot the tile guy F'ed up and I just groan. I try not to look for them but sometimes they just jump out.

 

[duneslider]

Looks fantastic!!!

You did the right thing! If you are anything like me accepting sub-par work will just make you hate yourself, pissed off at the sub and detract from the awesomeness that can be a new custom house.

It's ironic as as I walk around our house we've been in ~1.5 years I find another spot the tile guy F'ed up and I just groan. I try not to look for them but sometimes they just jump out.

Nobody is perfect and if it took you 1.5years to notice it then it can't be that big of a deal and can hardly be called an F-up. I can look at every job I have ever done and find things that I could have done better, there isn't enough time or money to get a "perfect" job. If you do find a perfect tile setter...you won't be able to afford him.