Code requirement for grounds in plastic box

[Cmreschke]

250. 148a refers you back to 110. They are not listed differently. Splicing is splicing. The wirenut or crimp sleeve or wagon or split bolt if you want does not have to be listed for grounding.

 

[Beemer533]

Equipment grounding conductors must be spliced together with a device listed for the purpose [110.14(B) and 250.148(A). Listed is the key word. If the wire connector you used is Listed for UL 467 prove it to the inspector.When an installer uses something the inspector knows nothing about and is unfamiliar, the burden of compliance now is on the INSTALLER and NOT the inspector.

I don't see anything in 110.14b or 250.148a about UL 467?


250.148 just refers to EGC connections to a box... (A) specifically says: connections and splices shall be made in accordance with 110.14b, except that insulation shall not be required.

110.14 is for splicing conductors of dissimilar metals. (B) conductors must be spliced or joined with splicing devices identified for the use... The only place it says listed is for direct burial applications..


I don't see where 110.14 differentiates between EGC and current carrying conductors?

I freely admit I am not an electrician, so maybe I'm missing something obvious, but I can't imagine what..


Also, what is the difference between "fault current" and say line to neutral current? I don't see how the fault current would be any different..

 

[nh_yota]

I believe the rationale behind the requirements for splicing grounds has to do with the possibilty of them coming apart and rendering the EGC useless as opposed to their current carrying ability.

My understanding is the rule applies more to grounding at the panel vs. at the outlet, but I always use the green wire nuts and I've never had a problem.

 

[Cmreschke]

A Splice Coming Apart Is Due To Poor workmanship and no wirenut is going to prevent that. Some crimps won't prevent poor work.

 

[pattenp]

I guess NEC 250.8 could be cited as why the wirenut needs to be listed for grounds.

 

[checkthisout]

They didn't give me any paper, just told me to call back after I fixed it for a reinspection of the electrical.

LOL. Sounds like a real professional inspection agency there....


Wire nuts are without question, 100% compliant for tying grounds together. Call the agency and ask for the lead inspector and ask what code you violated.

And, don't pay any reinspection fees!

 

[CJ7VFR]

LOL. Sounds like a real professional inspection agency there....


Wire nuts are without question, 100% compliant for tying grounds together. Call the agency and ask for the lead inspector and ask what code you violated.

And, don't pay any reinspection fees!

I agree with this.

Call the agency and ask them to tell you what code you violated. Don't question them about why the inspector failed your grounds, or that you think the way you did it is to code and you think that you are the one that is right.

Just ask them to tell you the code that has been violated, and then check for yourself to see if it is really a violation or not.

If you do it that way, it makes you look like you want to learn from them. If on the other hand, the code they quote you does not prohibit the use of regular wire nuts to make your grounds, call them back and say that you can not find anywhere in the code they provided you where it says you can't do what you did.

You want them to show you, in writing, why they failed you and not just tell you they think you are wrong. If they can't do that, then you will have some recourse in not changing what you have done if you can show them that nowhere in the code they gave you says what you did is a violation.

I know it sounds stupid, but if these are the people who you will have to deal with in the future for other inspections, if you piss them off now, they will find every little stupid thing that might possibly be a violation and make you change all kinds of stuff just to piss you off instead.

Jim

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

A Splice Coming Apart Is Due To Poor workmanship and no wirenut is going to prevent that. Some crimps won't prevent poor work.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

I agree with this.

Call the agency and ask them to tell you what code you violated. Don't question them about why the inspector failed your grounds, or that you think the way you did it is to code and you think that you are the one that is right.

Just ask them to tell you the code that has been violated, and then check for yourself to see if it is really a violation or not.

If you do it that way, it makes you look like you want to learn from them. If on the other hand, the code they quote you does not prohibit the use of regular wire nuts to make your grounds, call them back and say that you can not find anywhere in the code they provided you where it says you can't do what you did.

You want them to show you, in writing, why they failed you and not just tell you they think you are wrong. If they can't do that, then you will have some recourse in not changing what you have done if you can show them that nowhere in the code they gave you says what you did is a violation.

I know it sounds stupid, but if these are the people who you will have to deal with in the future for other inspections, if you piss them off now, they will find every little stupid thing that might possibly be a violation and make you change all kinds of stuff just to piss you off instead.

Jim

Just go down to the office and have his boss explain to you what is required.

 

[Cmreschke]

.

I know it sounds stupid, but if these are the people who you will have to deal with in the future for other inspections, if you piss them off now, they will find every little stupid thing that might possibly be a violation and make you change all kinds of stuff just to piss you off instead.

Jim

As much as I agree with most of what you said, I do not agree with this. If an inspector finds a true violation then that is great and they may have saved something bad from happening. But nitpicking a job because an inspector was questioned challenged and lost and not actually finding violations while nitpicking is just plain wrong. An inspector can not just make things up.

 

[nh_yota]

Always ask for a code reference when they claim a violation.

 

[Wirepuller]

^ Not exactly. Inspectors can and do make things difficult. The vast majority I deal with are professional and easy to get along with. There are however exceptions. I had the great pleasure of wiring a few large houses on the outer cape. A developer I do a good bit of work for wanted me to wire their cape houses. I did. The wiring inspector would not answer my calls, failed me on a rough inspection 6 times citing 1 violation per visit. I went to the mass board of inspections. That made it worse. Complete nightmare to deal with.

 

[Wirepuller]

I had the rough signed by a state inspector but had to go through the process once again for all my finals. He's still employed. All because my business is off cape. Be careful.

 

[nh_yota]

Yeah just like anything else in life there will be some inspectors who are professional, don't want to hassle you and are more than happy to explain a code violation. On the other hand, there will be inspectors who are naturally assholes and/or on a power trip and just want to exert their authority. Somewhere in the middle there are inspectors who are nice but may misinterpret code because they've only ever seen something done a certain way.

 

[jesse82nc]

Here's an example of what he claimed was a violation - https://goo.gl/photos/H25p8ZZFv2htQXLHA (GFCI using Line in and Load terminal to add 2nd outlet) and https://goo.gl/photos/4UfiXjk6GXmfb4Tt8 (two separate circuits)

These are the wire nuts - https://goo.gl/photos/cpE4oZWxkudnWSfDA and https://goo.gl/photos/WkzxzQzhUDGgKuDF9 and https://goo.gl/photos/2kD4aqFLvy5VJXsJ8

I'm going to give them a call on Monday and ask for some clarification.

 

[Cmreschke]

I do wonder if you have enough free conductor? That's my first thought

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Code requires 6" past the face of the box...

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Here's an example of what he claimed was a violation - https://goo.gl/photos/H25p8ZZFv2htQXLHA (GFCI using Line in and Load terminal to add 2nd outlet) and https://goo.gl/photos/4UfiXjk6GXmfb4Tt8 (two separate circuits)

These are the wire nuts - https://goo.gl/photos/cpE4oZWxkudnWSfDA and https://goo.gl/photos/WkzxzQzhUDGgKuDF9 and https://goo.gl/photos/2kD4aqFLvy5VJXsJ8

I'm going to give them a call on Monday and ask for some clarification.

Wires look short to me anyway,Is that a gfi feeding a decorator recept next to it?

 

[jesse82nc]

Wires look short to me anyway,Is that a gfi feeding a decorator recept next to it?

It is, I pushed some of the wire out the back of the box, I can pull the recepts out a good couple inches more.

 

[Norcal]

There is a huge amount of cable sheathing in the box, not really a code issue because "installed in a neat and workmanlike manner" in 110.12 is not enforceable, but is a sure sign of DIY work.

 

[tab2]

Not trying to derail here, but is twisting my grounds together with no wire nuts not an acceptable practice according to code?

 

[Cmreschke]

Not trying to derail here, but is twisting my grounds together with no wire nuts not an acceptable practice according to code?

It is not an acceptable practice no. Twist them up and wirenut them is what I do. You could use a Buchanon if you want. But you need something.

 

[jesse82nc]

So I got ahold of the inspector again today. He said what he thought I needed to use was "Staycons"? I couldn't even find that online.

But he checked with his boss and he said as long as the wire nut was rated for the number of wires, that I should be fine. For me, that would be 5 x #12, I will have to double check 1 or 2 boxes, but for most of them, it's only 3-4 wires. I think one of them may have 6, will change that to a blue one.

 

[Cmreschke]

Sta kons are terminal crimps for the ends of wires like forks and rings. They probably make a barrel crimp too.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Stakon© is a crimp connector copyrighted by Thomas & Betts.
That an inspector specifies the exact brand is indeed scary. They're supposed to be impartial and that's very unprofessional
Barrel crimps are #PT70 and PT80. The equivalent is a #410 Ideal

In my 40+ years in the trade I've used them numerous times but have NEVER ONCE been turned down for a wire nut.

 

[simpler=better]

Not trying to derail here, but is twisting my grounds together with no wire nuts not an acceptable practice according to code?

If you twisted then soldered it would actually be OK

 

[checkthisout]

If you twisted then soldered it would actually be OK

Nope

 

[Teken]

Whats the story with all the electrical tape around the box? Was there a end of the world sale on black electrical tape?!?!

 

[jeff_gates]

Do what he wants and call it a day. If you call him on his knowledge it may go bad for you in the future inspections.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Nope

It is around here anyway,its considered a mechanical connection as long as theyre twisted 1st before soldering.
I usually wrap the end with tape though.

 

[Teken]

It is around here anyway,its considered a mechanical connection as long as theyre twisted 1st before soldering.
I usually wrap the end with tape though.

You would never see that done in a production environment. The amount of time and materials to first twist, solder, than apply electrical tape over the joint?!?!

Versus twist with linesman's pliers - then affix the wire nut / marrette, done.

 

[checkthisout]

If circuit conductors are spliced or terminated on devices or equipment in a box, any equipment grounding conductors installed with the circuit are required to be connected to the box by listed devices. Such devices for attaching an equipment grounding conductor to a box include listed grounding screws, listed grounding clips, and other listed devices. Grounding connections are not permitted to be solely dependent on solder.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

You would never see that done in a production environment. The amount of time and materials to first twist, solder, than apply electrical tape over the joint?!?!

Versus twist with linesman's pliers - then affix the wire nut / marrette, done.

It doesnt take much time when youve done it that way since the early 70s,its all about practice.
Id never do it on commercial work,too many metal boxes and things get taken apart too much.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

If circuit conductors are spliced or terminated on devices or equipment in a box, any equipment grounding conductors installed with the circuit are required to be connected to the box by listed devices. Such devices for attaching an equipment grounding conductor to a box include listed grounding screws, listed grounding clips, and other listed devices. Grounding connections are not permitted to be solely dependent on solder.

Did you notice the twist first part? I also do the rest of the wires in the box the same way,wrap them with super 33/then rubber then super 33 again.
Ive only had 1 inspector complain about it,but he was a young kid who didnt even have a journeymans license but the city of cb saw fit to make a residential inspector out of him.
So anyway the chief inspector told him it was fine.

 

[Speedy Petey]

Do what he wants and call it a day. If you call him on his knowledge it may go bad for you in the future inspections.

NO! Do NOT do that.

This is the exact reason why there are posts like this all over the internet. Because folks cave to incompetent or power-mad inspectors.
Inspectors are human just like everyone else and do need a check from time to time. If he "makes it go bad" for you on a future job then go over his head and complain.

 

[gregtwojeeps]

Take a piece of 1/2" plywood 2ft. x2 ft. square and screw four or five plastic wall boxes on it like you are using at home where the inspector failed your work. ...

Put some 12-2 NMG in them and make all the grounds up in the boxes .....using all the different ways that have been posted on here and take it to the inspector's office. Make him pick the grounds connection that he wants you to do. You get your answer and he knows that you don't just roll over. JMO

 

[Cmreschke]

Take a piece of 1/2" plywood 2ft. x2 ft. square and screw four or five plastic wall boxes on it like you are using at home where the inspector failed your work. ...

Put some 12-2 NMG in them and make all the grounds up in the boxes .....using all the different ways that have been posted on here and take it to the inspector's office. Make him pick the grounds connection that he wants you to do. You get your answer and he knows that you don't just roll over. JMO

Bad idea.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Take a piece of 1/2" plywood 2ft. x2 ft. square and screw four or five plastic wall boxes on it like you are using at home where the inspector failed your work. ...

Put some 12-2 NMG in them and make all the grounds up in the boxes .....using all the different ways that have been posted on here and take it to the inspector's office. Make him pick the grounds connection that he wants you to do. You get your answer and he knows that you don't just roll over. JMO

 

[checkthisout]

Did you notice the twist first part? I also do the rest of the wires in the box the same way,wrap them with super 33/then rubber then super 33 again.
Ive only had 1 inspector complain about it,but he was a young kid who didnt even have a journeymans license but the city of cb saw fit to make a residential inspector out of him.
So anyway the chief inspector told him it was fine.

That was actually a quote of the code. Why would the twisting beforehand make soldering ok? Not saying anyone is wrong because I don't do electrical work and honestly don't know but if twisting isn't an approved method of connection, why would it make soldering (another non-approved method for grounds) ok?

 

[checkthisout]

Take a piece of 1/2" plywood 2ft. x2 ft. square and screw four or five plastic wall boxes on it like you are using at home where the inspector failed your work. ...

Put some 12-2 NMG in them and make all the grounds up in the boxes .....using all the different ways that have been posted on here and take it to the inspector's office. Make him pick the grounds connection that he wants you to do. You get your answer and he knows that you don't just roll over. JMO

LOL.

At the end of the day, the inspector probably just doesn't know any better.