Supplying the world with cheap tools
- Thread starter NJ Marty
- Start date
I have a friend that buys only snap on tools. He uses them around the house for his lawn mower and maybe oil changes or brake pads. I on the other hand have 2 screw drivers that I found that are snap on the rest is a mix of craftsman and harbor freight. I laugh when he calls me up to use my lift in my shop to work on his truck. My usual response is "what they don't make snap on lifts yet?" He usually says I wish I could afford a lift........
Looking at Sears bottom line and the checkout line at HF, apparently people can't even afford Cman, or at least see no longer see any reason, to buy their tools, regardless, of where they are manufactured.
Add to this the number of tool illiterate people who don't know the difference..
The HF stuff is hung on magic pegboards with prices that lead them to think other tool retailers such as Sears are crooks... The Sears stuff is sold based upon it's former reputation from the old days.. On the day of the Big Tool Race; The HF, Craftsman, and other dime store tools brands can choose their best horse... When the countdown gets to 4-3-2-1-Go , I hope the merry-go-round is in working order.May the best "Tool" win.
They call it "competition" and pretty sure HF did not develop the concept.
Maybe people are smart enough to realize that if they buy a set of Chinese made wrenched for $17.50, instead of paying $35 a set for Chinese made wrenches, they are saving 50%.
There is a two word term for people who spend money like that, that would be deemed politically incorrect, to use here (or anywhere, any more, for that matter.).
Al Bundy
Well-known member
There is a two word term for people who spend money like that, that would be deemed politically incorrect, to use here (or anywhere, any more, for that matter.).
So now it's clear, you're just a hater. I have mostly Snap On tools, does that make me fit your two word description as well?
When I'm gone after using my tools for 30+ years, my boys will get most of what I paid for them if they decide not to keep them. HF tools would go in the garbage if they somehow managed to last that long. But I don't judge people based on the kind of tools they buy either way.
sberry
Banned
While I am with you on the using what you want concept the opposite is true in regards to the financial side. they will get about 1/3 for the snaps and the HF regularly sees its price in sales and auctions. Second,,, they have been lasting that long and if they were to go in the trash after being depreciated over a year or 2 its pretty much irrelevant. Its simply not the same tossing a 1$ wrench one bought recent as a 30$ one in yesterdays dollars..
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Not really, since it does not apply to everyone. If someone wants and can afford SO tools, then that if fine, IMO.
But, when someone says "gee, I wish I could afford a lift!", because they really wish they had one, but own expensive, over priced tools, that they use lightly, what am I supposed to think? this might be the same person, that cannot live without a $200 Bose table radio, or "versache" luggage.
Not just with tools, but many people have to have "the best", whether it's a house, car, clothes, watches, cell phones - but at the expense, of other things, that may be important, in some cases paying bills, properly feeding their kids, or saving for old age.
Neither for me. I don't buy what I have to, I buy what I want to. I buy what will hold up and get the job done. My money goes for stuff that really matters to me. My 15 dollar extendable 72 tooth 1/2" HF ratchet is my favorite out of any I've used, and flawless after something like 4 years now. Why is a Snap-On needed to turn a socket? The $150.00 I saved bought something I wanted or needed... MY US General tool boxes have held up without issue, and for thousands less that a tool truck box. I spend my money where I want, and tools just isn't it for me. I like my house, my land, my tractors, my cars, my trials bike and on and on. Those give me pleasure, tools really don't. Not everyone fits into a mold and some people see it as silliness when it's not needed, my Dad was one of those people.
If money were no object, I'd have at least one of everything Snap On makes and keep it all in one of their silly sized tool wardrobes. Just because it would be cool to have. Now, since I am a responsible working guy and money is in shorter supply than I want it to be, I have to make smart tool purchases. I do have some stuff that came off the tool trucks but only a small percentage of the total is a high end brand. I simply couldn't afford to buy $300 wrenches when I also had to put food on the table and shoes on the feet of my kids. So I bought the $100 wrenches instead.Know what? I still managed to buy good tools which got the jobs done and I'm guessing that my tool collection has served me about as well as a "bragging set" would have. I actually do brag about my tools sometimes but not because they cost alot. I brag about them because they have served me well and didn't break my bank account doing it. I suppose I'll always be a "best bang for your buck" tool shopper. A few months ago I needed a set of line wrenches so I stepped onto the local Snappy guys rolling showroom. When I heard what he wanted for the set, I just couldn't bring myself to pull the trigger. Sure they were beautiful but nobody's going to tell me they'd work much better than the Toptul set I bought for less than 1/4 their price. I'm going to keep doing what I always have; spend my tool money wisely. That means a mix of domestic and import brands which are capable of getting the job done, no matter where they come from and without lowering my bank account to uncomfortable levels. Cheers!
Ozwelder
Well-known member
An empathetic AMEN! to that brother PMD1966 !
I am a former buyer of Chinese tools.What drove me back to better quality tools was the general lack of longevity among the majority of Chinese made tools.Me, being a bit strange expect a tool to last out the warranty and then some.
I will happily buy Taiwanese and Indian Tools as those countries have now realised that onward improvement of the quality is good for the manufacturing country as well as the end use customer. Once impressed the customer will buy again from the same source.
I have a mobile stand of plastic parts bins several years old which are disintegrating due to the plastics used. I also have some same sized bins made in Australia that are twice as old but as good as the day they were made.
The Chinese practice quality fade (mentioned in the book) and the article manufactured in the 1st production run is generally good but diminished in the quality of its materials and manufacture in successive production runs.
Being retired these days and not requiring many new tools,I frequent second hand tool and garage sales to acquire the few hand and powered tools I require these days. They will last longer than I will.!
Cheers
Ozwelder
If you work with your tools a lot, you should buy a few really nice ones to see how you like them, if there is a difference that is worth the money to you.
I've gotten so I really like some tools of specific brands, and buy them every chance I can, usually used. Others I don't care that much as long as it works.
In 1960 everything from Japan was junk, nobody could touch American, English, and German electronics. By 1985 Japan was the world leader in all but a few categories. We don't have a lot of time to get smart people into government, and get manufacturing going again in the USA.
I've gotten so I really like some tools of specific brands, and buy them every chance I can, usually used. Others I don't care that much as long as it works.
In 1960 everything from Japan was junk, nobody could touch American, English, and German electronics. By 1985 Japan was the world leader in all but a few categories. We don't have a lot of time to get smart people into government, and get manufacturing going again in the USA.
Weird Tolkienish Figure
Well-known member
Manufacturing will be 90% robots and automation in a few years. This isn't the 30's.
Exactly. Politicians talk about bringing manufacturing back, what they leave out is the automation part. If they do bring back manufacturing to the U.S. I'm not counting on a lot of job creation
kctyphoon
Banned
Not all people buy HF cause they can't afford better - a lot of it is just the amount of use they will see.. Why rent tools when you can buy a cheap version and throw it on the shelf.. I have their bearing press kits - I've used it twice already, so money well spent. I've gone in there and said , oh offset wrenches.. Not that I've ever needed one, but for $15 why not throw it in a drawer.. If they get used once and save me 2 hours of aggravation then it was a great buy. If I never do, then I'm out the cost of lunch and who really cares..
If I bought all snap on I'd be able to fit all my tools in a handheld box, but craftsman / gearwrench and HF allowed me to fill up a 44" top/bottom chest and a tool cart too.. It's a rare occasion when I have to buy a tool out of necessity.. The cost of the purchases are worth the convenience of buying them to have on hand BEFORE I might need it.. You don't wait for the flood to build the arch..
I get a kick out of reading how the pros brag about how they needed a tool and the snap on truck saved the day.. But most times a cheaper version would have worked just as well and they would have probably had it by now if the gearwrench and craftsman sets weren't "beneath" them. Why not be more equipped and get a cheaper set just to have?. I see no point in buying one socket or torx bit at a time as you need it to build a set. It's the most expensive and time consuming way to buy tools for people that swear time is money..
If I bought all snap on I'd be able to fit all my tools in a handheld box, but craftsman / gearwrench and HF allowed me to fill up a 44" top/bottom chest and a tool cart too.. It's a rare occasion when I have to buy a tool out of necessity.. The cost of the purchases are worth the convenience of buying them to have on hand BEFORE I might need it.. You don't wait for the flood to build the arch..
I get a kick out of reading how the pros brag about how they needed a tool and the snap on truck saved the day.. But most times a cheaper version would have worked just as well and they would have probably had it by now if the gearwrench and craftsman sets weren't "beneath" them. Why not be more equipped and get a cheaper set just to have?. I see no point in buying one socket or torx bit at a time as you need it to build a set. It's the most expensive and time consuming way to buy tools for people that swear time is money..
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Al Bundy
Well-known member
Your attitude toward this guy really makes no sense. There was no mention of him having thousands of dollars worth of tools that were causing him financial hardship. And we're talking about a lift, not groceries. You demonized this guy based on assumptions.
Al Bundy
Well-known member
Snap On regularly sells for half the truck price unless it's abused which is about the limit of what I'll pay. If you have any available for 1/3 of that price, send me a PM and I'll give you the address to ship it. Even the garage sale guys won't touch HF at pennies on the dollar so I have no idea where you get your resale values for that stuff.
sberry
Banned
I went to an auction, the snaps were not in good condition but brought nothing and several rings of HF beat to snot brought more than new. Mechanic John proved this out on this forum, bought HF and used it a year, got as much or more than he paid.
sberry
Banned
In the thread above you mention they bring 1/2 if they are in good condition, this is an estimate of at least 50% in error.
This is why the warranty and extended warranties and trade in is so successful for a dealer. Most people really don't do the real math.
Buy a dollar wrench, use it, throw it away and you are out a dollar assuming it didn't work which is probably not the case, buy a 30$ wrench and you lost 15 depreciation before it make it out the door.
sberry
Banned
Buy a HF wrench for a buck and the next one you make is yours and its still worth a buck, buy a premium and its worth 1/2 to start with and you have to make 30 to replace it. Car dealers make this sell,,, it has better resale,,, so you should pay 10 large for it today so you can get 5 more 4 years from now.
No wonder other countries are winning the math game.
No wonder other countries are winning the math game.
^^^
Never looked at it quite this way but your logic makes sense to me. First guy I ever worked for never had more than a small tool chest which he kept in the back of an old car. He never had a tool that didn't come from Craftsman or maybe the local hardware store. Yet, he was a master at what he did and his mechanical skills and abilities elevated him to a level where he was considered a mechanical "Artist." He was that good and he did it all with tools he didn't mind losing. In that regard, I'd much rather be known for my mechanical abilities than the fancy tools I owned.
-Valentine
Never looked at it quite this way but your logic makes sense to me. First guy I ever worked for never had more than a small tool chest which he kept in the back of an old car. He never had a tool that didn't come from Craftsman or maybe the local hardware store. Yet, he was a master at what he did and his mechanical skills and abilities elevated him to a level where he was considered a mechanical "Artist." He was that good and he did it all with tools he didn't mind losing. In that regard, I'd much rather be known for my mechanical abilities than the fancy tools I owned.
-Valentine
Weird Tolkienish Figure
Well-known member
In the 90's I had two manufacturing jobs and I would have preferred McDonalds to be honest. One I was an electroplater's assistant, dipping lead parts (yes it was a lead line) into a tin-acid solution that was boiled and electrified. Now I may find aspects of it neat, but then I was just a 20 year old college student, I found the job terrible. Next terrible manufacturing job was making atomizers (perfume bottles, we made the Michael Jordan cologne bottles). Factory was more high tech but job was still terrible.
I would never trade my now service job (system administrator) for my then manufacturing job.
The worst manufacturing job was my brother's, who lasted a week filling bottles of pure ethyl (drinking) alcohol.
I would never trade my now service job (system administrator) for my then manufacturing job.
The worst manufacturing job was my brother's, who lasted a week filling bottles of pure ethyl (drinking) alcohol.
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I never purchased a user tool thinking of warranty or resale value.
I got them to use them to get paid.
Items purchased to flip for a profit are just merchandise and not tools to me.
I have bling that I have to wear out to get my moneys worth and India junk that had become profitable the first job, still kicking a decade later.
I know which was the better investment.
The forgotten cheapy losers were easily offset by the more numerous winners in terms of value recovered.
But still in my case a bling ratchet to use with dreaded import sockets with nearly a decade of flawless use is all I need.
Your mileage should vary, you don't do the same jobs I do.
As far as resale goes in my area cheaper brand tools sell faster and sometimes double of purchase price. Buy the set at X a unit and resell singles at 2X after using them a while, not a problem to break even on the less desired sizes.
SO and CM are easy resale while SK and all others mentioned here so often have no brand recognition and sell as cheap Asain stuff does, not always carrying the profit margin.
Mostly not worth messing with anymore.
I got them to use them to get paid.
Items purchased to flip for a profit are just merchandise and not tools to me.
I have bling that I have to wear out to get my moneys worth and India junk that had become profitable the first job, still kicking a decade later.
I know which was the better investment.
The forgotten cheapy losers were easily offset by the more numerous winners in terms of value recovered.
But still in my case a bling ratchet to use with dreaded import sockets with nearly a decade of flawless use is all I need.
Your mileage should vary, you don't do the same jobs I do.
As far as resale goes in my area cheaper brand tools sell faster and sometimes double of purchase price. Buy the set at X a unit and resell singles at 2X after using them a while, not a problem to break even on the less desired sizes.
SO and CM are easy resale while SK and all others mentioned here so often have no brand recognition and sell as cheap Asain stuff does, not always carrying the profit margin.
Mostly not worth messing with anymore.
Automation is ghastly expensive, if you aren't making tens of thousands of almost exactly the same thing, its cheaper to use other methods. Many tasks don't work well in automation, flexible materials, processes that are variable and depend on visual input etc.
What I don't see happening is a return to 50 years ago, not due to automation, as much as min wage and employment costs.
OTOH if you work in any industry that outsources, the cost of manufacturing in another country has a LOT of overhead, QC, and risk, plus the transportation costs.
Some things will come back, some won't, and it will depend on the net costs and predicted long term costs.
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sberry
Banned
When you break it out this way and from real experience, not simply repeating clichés this is a pretty accurate assessment of tools,,,,, which has nothing to do with how people feel about them, jobs, China etc but the actual tools. I have seen a lot of this junk used in a rough world and I am really impressed with some of it, as was said the losers aint but a handful and lunch money over a decade.
sberry
Banned
I got nothing against nice tools or expensive ones but if one is trying to make a logical economical argument for buying top of the line today they should go back to grade school math.
It has got so competitive that the bottom has came way up and this is partly due to Walmart,,,,,,,,,,,,, yes, and other vendors like them. They shop hard for both quality and price. Someone makes a cheaper wrench than Stanley but not at that cost. Same for flea markets, rarely see real **** wrenches anymore, who is going to buy a junk India for 3$ when you can get a good China for 4? A guy may buy China for 4 when premium is 40.
It has got so competitive that the bottom has came way up and this is partly due to Walmart,,,,,,,,,,,,, yes, and other vendors like them. They shop hard for both quality and price. Someone makes a cheaper wrench than Stanley but not at that cost. Same for flea markets, rarely see real **** wrenches anymore, who is going to buy a junk India for 3$ when you can get a good China for 4? A guy may buy China for 4 when premium is 40.
PMD1966
Well-known member
Started working at GM in October, 1966. Wages were $2.91 per hour. Retired in November, 2011. Wages were $29.10 per hour.
Inflation is almost inline with that increase. 2.91 in 1966 is worth 20.20 in 2011. Not too far off.
PapaGrande
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2016
- Messages
- 74
And worker productivity went up WAY more than that.
dutchgray
Well-known member
Which means 45 years of work there was only worth $8.90 extra an hour.
What was a new worker getting in 2011 ?
I wouldnt make that claim. Generally pay in manufacturing facilities goes up as seniority does. I remember during the auto industry collapsed seeing an article about some of the most senior plant assemblers who got offered early retirement were making upwards of $100/hr.
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+ 45 years of retirement match & healthcare coverage. Wages are only part of an employees compensation.
Awesome for those lucky enough to receive it. for nearly everybody else those days are gone forever.
It's also why GM wants to build cars in Mexico and China
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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dutchgray
Well-known member
That was the point I was making 45 years of seniority was only worth $8.90 in real terms or as later answered $11.10 over a new employee. Blue collar wages have got worse in real terms and there is less chance to progress upwards in a company today, you basically stay at or near the bottom unless you improve your education and get a better job.
kctyphoon
Banned
All true, but the second you mention good wages, Union jobs, people going on strike to hold out for more money, better benefits, keeping a pension, in the hopes of providing a better life for themselves and for their families - you will watch the public turn.. all of a sudden the American worker becomes a bunch of greedy, lazy jackasses that are driving the companies into poverty no matter how many billions of dollars some of those companies make every year. This country will never go anywhere while the have nots are too concerned with making sure NOBODY else gets anything g they don't get themselves. Instead of argueing about how we should all be given good pay and benefits for the people that dedicated their lives to make companies successful, most people would rather argue - why should you get a pension and free healthcare when I have to pay for mine.. the working class here will always fight harder to keep each other down, then they ever will to help hold each other up..
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