sberry
Banned
I use mostly Cman, no one beats me on rusted and stuck. Yes I know the difference ands what its sposed to feel like and I know when someone figures they got a golden arm too.
Can anyone make a case for China Craftsman?
- Thread starter Aerocraft74
- Start date
sberry
Banned
I cant even remember the last time I stripped or rounded a fastener.
d.mcfarland
Well-known member
Those dang #2 phillips screws never seem to work perfect when you need them too...
But I agree with sberry that my Craftsman (although not new Chinese) has worked pretty well for me. Maybe someone with a digital caliper could do some investigating with a bunch of different Chinese made sockets compared to USA made sockets on how precise they are.
nyrapscalion
Well-known member
I have a simple answer.
NO.
Something I will never buy. If I'm forced to borrow, ok, forced because there's NOTHING else at hand.
This is the end of sears. The stores here are empty...not being restocked.
We used to have an amazing hardware store, old timers and all.
Tools of every variety, knowledgeable people, like a dream now.
Vanished...they were a one of a kind, bought out by True Value....that was the end.
The store was empty, shelves were empty too.
No good reason for made in china, no good reason at all.
Snap On making their stuff in china is a hanging offense.
Sears is just the end of an era in American shopping.
NO.
Something I will never buy. If I'm forced to borrow, ok, forced because there's NOTHING else at hand.
This is the end of sears. The stores here are empty...not being restocked.
We used to have an amazing hardware store, old timers and all.
Tools of every variety, knowledgeable people, like a dream now.
Vanished...they were a one of a kind, bought out by True Value....that was the end.
The store was empty, shelves were empty too.
No good reason for made in china, no good reason at all.
Snap On making their stuff in china is a hanging offense.
Sears is just the end of an era in American shopping.
anndel
Well-known member
I can, several years ago when I was using an adjustable wrench instead of a box wrench. I was taking down a ham radio tower.
Having read most or all of your posts, I've reached the conclusion this has very little to do with the tool and everything to do with the mechanic, technique, use of penetrating oils, care, heat, touch etc etc.
So while I appreciate your comments here (and elsewhere generally), I don't feel you are a good indicator of tool quality. I think you could make an aluminum wrench work.
FergusonTO35
Well-known member
My first auto job was at Sears Auto Center, 1997-1999. We were connected to the main store and most of the techs bought Cman because they got a 20% discount, it was always on sale, and they could just take a 5 minute walk anytime to get something warrantied. This was at a time when most of the tools were still USA but quality was fast going downhill. Their Cman tools got the job done for the most part. Appearance wise they would look like **** pretty fast. The chrome sockets would turn to a scratchy gray color and the RP wrenches would always lose chips of metal off the open ends. The ratchets were gritty and constantly needed rebuild/replacement. The Cman tool boxes other than the industrial series would rust easily and the drawers would wobble when loaded. These techs didn't care. They knew they were in a bottom feeder tire/alignment shop that had been whored out on low prices and low quality a long time ago, and their only mission was to earn a living until the place died.
One tech who was older than dirt had a Snap-On box and tools from the 70's. His tools were worn but still attractive and functioned like new. The quality of his work was better than the other guys too. He also didn't kill himself trying to get as many vehicles out the door as he could. If a job took extra time to do the right way then he would take the extra time. His reputation as a good tech was sterling, and I always strove to do the same. Now, I know that wasn't because he used SO and not Cman but rather because of his decisions and conduct. I think this story does illustrate the stark difference between the two tool companies at the time. And, the difference between how technicians work. One emphasizes low price, low expectations, high volume, little to no concern about the future. The other emphasizes high quality and expectations regardless of price or volume, and remembering that what we do today creates the future. I chose the latter philosophy both for the tools I bought and how I conducted myself as a tech and have no regrets.
One tech who was older than dirt had a Snap-On box and tools from the 70's. His tools were worn but still attractive and functioned like new. The quality of his work was better than the other guys too. He also didn't kill himself trying to get as many vehicles out the door as he could. If a job took extra time to do the right way then he would take the extra time. His reputation as a good tech was sterling, and I always strove to do the same. Now, I know that wasn't because he used SO and not Cman but rather because of his decisions and conduct. I think this story does illustrate the stark difference between the two tool companies at the time. And, the difference between how technicians work. One emphasizes low price, low expectations, high volume, little to no concern about the future. The other emphasizes high quality and expectations regardless of price or volume, and remembering that what we do today creates the future. I chose the latter philosophy both for the tools I bought and how I conducted myself as a tech and have no regrets.
Brownsfan
Well-known member
All things being equal. Meaning all the major retail outlets where you can buy tools. Craftsman is still the best value. When on sale the sets are dirt cheap and the tools are still decent. On par or better than all the other options out there. Look at the 300+ piece set that goes on sale all the time for 200. There is no better set out there when it comes to what you get for the money. Most of my hard line sockets, extensions and wrenches are Craftsman from the 1990s and all work great still
OutsideMachinist
Well-known member
The case against them would be most of their stores closing. I have to drive past probably ten stores selling tools to get to sears, including northern tool and harbor freight. Thats with one still being fairly close to me all things considered. As well as industrial suppliers selling USA tools. I never cared about warranty but thats another long drawn out argument we have frequently.
So the case against them would be less easy access to them and the price. Once you have a basic starter set, even craftsman one, it usually isnt worth it to keep grabbing other items from them. I use their rp wrenches as a backup set and bought the 300pc socket set 2-3 years ago still use them everyday. Sears isnt my first thought or even first couple choices for buying tools anymore though.
So the case against them would be less easy access to them and the price. Once you have a basic starter set, even craftsman one, it usually isnt worth it to keep grabbing other items from them. I use their rp wrenches as a backup set and bought the 300pc socket set 2-3 years ago still use them everyday. Sears isnt my first thought or even first couple choices for buying tools anymore though.
WhiskeyRanger
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2015
- Messages
- 398
Same here... Well, other than some cheap Chinese Phillips screws that I ran down with an impact. I was camping and was more worried about getting the roof of the shed secured with a makeshift fix before a storm blew in. Hack work, but it worked.
Doing things the right way seems to solve a lot of "cheap tool" problems.
Schurkey
Well-known member
God bless you, Ferguson.
mrjaw14
Well-known member
Has anyone mentioned that a Chinese craftsman 1/2" beat a US made one? I'm sure most of you've seen this:
http://www.fourwheeler.com/product-reviews/1406-half-inch-ratchet-shootout/
Now I'm a Snap-On ratchet fan and am slowly buying them here and there. Having said that, I've put down craftsman ratchets when I felt them giving a little before they broke, so I've never broke one. The one I was using at the time was a Chinese made 1/4" drive. I was only bolting some 7/16 nuts on some chain link fence bolts, nothing that should have stressed it
http://www.fourwheeler.com/product-reviews/1406-half-inch-ratchet-shootout/
Now I'm a Snap-On ratchet fan and am slowly buying them here and there. Having said that, I've put down craftsman ratchets when I felt them giving a little before they broke, so I've never broke one. The one I was using at the time was a Chinese made 1/4" drive. I was only bolting some 7/16 nuts on some chain link fence bolts, nothing that should have stressed it
hmmm.. motorcycles fasteners usually can be seen, wrenching with chinese .... will leave marks and mangled bolts and nuts, that probably will cost you more than the tools.
you need 2 jis screwdrivers #2 and probably #3
6,8,10,12,14 wrenches ( combination if possible)
depending on you model a set of 3/8 sockets could be all you ever need.
buy smart, once and german, you'll never need warranty ...well the screwdrivers can be made in Japan
What kinda strange bikes are you working on anyway? Mine's almost all allen bolts.
Attachments
SantaAna12
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2012
- Messages
- 1,091
Thanks for that. Well said.
The difference between mediocrity and commitment.
Or, to use a more pertinent analogy: the difference between your average Joe and a Craftsman.
FergusonTO35
Well-known member
Schurkey and Santa Ana, thanks for the kind words. I really enjoy working as a tech on a very part time basis in my own garage. I can take as long as I want to make sure a job is done right and turn down a job if I don't want it. Customer doesn't like it? C-ya!
Last edited:
sberry
Banned
This,,,, it aint nothing special but it works and how much of a loss is it all if it fell out of the boat tomorrow? The cost is so extremely cheap the value is hard to beat.
sberry
Banned
I agree with this general sentiment. The super deal is in the big sets and the smaller stuff isn't a bargain in comparison. They aint getting rich but if you make a line by line comparison others have a better deal.
FergusonTO35
Well-known member
Stopped in the Frankfort, KY Sears store today as I happened to to be in that area. This is a small franchise store that only carries appliances, hardware, and lawn and garden. In other words, just the things that Sears should focus on. Looked through the tools and was happy to see that most hand tools other than wrenches/sockets/ratchets were USA and didn't look like they had been sitting there forever. All the roll around toolboxes were USA and looked to be decent quality for how little they cost. The hand boxes were Chicom or south of the border. I bought a ball pein hammer for my portable kit to give them some props.
From what I was seeing, Sears could do ok with this model. Trim away all the **** they haven't been competitive with in years (clothing, housewares, auto service, etc.) and focus on a few product lines they are still strong in. The small franchised stores are more flexible and can be located in a lot more places than the big box retailers who have been spanking Sears for decades. The opportunity is there, whether corporate Sears can get their heads out of their asses enough to recognize it is uncertain.
From what I was seeing, Sears could do ok with this model. Trim away all the **** they haven't been competitive with in years (clothing, housewares, auto service, etc.) and focus on a few product lines they are still strong in. The small franchised stores are more flexible and can be located in a lot more places than the big box retailers who have been spanking Sears for decades. The opportunity is there, whether corporate Sears can get their heads out of their asses enough to recognize it is uncertain.
Farmall450
Well-known member
I don't know about that unless Apex buys Craftsman from Sears Holding
The moral of the story seems confusing, if you use Craftsman tools, you are a lousy mechanic, or if you work in a Sears Auto center, you should use only Snap On tools?
Not too hard to figure how this old veteran shined, right along with his gently used tools.
Never heard of a Sears Auto Center, being anything else.
Personally, I wouldn't give you a nickel for any "NEW" China made wrench vs a finish worn well used vintage USA MADE Craftsman (or other USA Made equivalent).
I have a tool box chock full of well used American Made tools which served me (and my father before me) with no complaints. Of late, I broke a USA Made 15mm 6 point socket. I took it back to Sears for replacement...but, was offered a China made unit to my dismay. The hell with that! I kept my busted socket & told them what I thought of their new product line. I'll replace it with an alternate USA Made socket. Sears & any Craftsman outlet re-seller has seen the last of me.
They're (Sears) chasing the bottom line has reduced a once proud product line to a fleeting memory.
On a side note: What can you expect from a retailing giant that is now under the corporate umbrella of it's parent company... K-Mart. For those of you who did not know it, Sears went bankrupt a few years ago & was gobbled up by lowly old K-Mart when it emerged from re-structuring. YES FOLKS, K-Mart owns Sears lock stock & barrel. There was an initial backlash from the Sears exec staff when lowly K-Mart decided to inject some cheaper lines... i.e. China (and other 3rd world) made junk. So, look what we have now? It's hard to find much of anything in Sears which is not made off-shore. It's come 180 degrees in a short time.
In actuality, why would anyone buy the new Craftsman China made stuff for upwards of 3X the price over Harbor Freight' s product line which offers the same warranty. Not that I like them any better but, they are popping up everywhere.
Thankfully, I'm closer to the end rather than the beginning of my mechanical repair career. To all you younger folks, all I can offer is to advise you to invest in quality because it pays big dividends. Quality tools Will last you a lifetime.
As for my busted 15mm 6 point socket, it's now a paper weight (with it's own story - which I will relate to anyone who'll listen).
I have a tool box chock full of well used American Made tools which served me (and my father before me) with no complaints. Of late, I broke a USA Made 15mm 6 point socket. I took it back to Sears for replacement...but, was offered a China made unit to my dismay. The hell with that! I kept my busted socket & told them what I thought of their new product line. I'll replace it with an alternate USA Made socket. Sears & any Craftsman outlet re-seller has seen the last of me.
They're (Sears) chasing the bottom line has reduced a once proud product line to a fleeting memory.
On a side note: What can you expect from a retailing giant that is now under the corporate umbrella of it's parent company... K-Mart. For those of you who did not know it, Sears went bankrupt a few years ago & was gobbled up by lowly old K-Mart when it emerged from re-structuring. YES FOLKS, K-Mart owns Sears lock stock & barrel. There was an initial backlash from the Sears exec staff when lowly K-Mart decided to inject some cheaper lines... i.e. China (and other 3rd world) made junk. So, look what we have now? It's hard to find much of anything in Sears which is not made off-shore. It's come 180 degrees in a short time.
In actuality, why would anyone buy the new Craftsman China made stuff for upwards of 3X the price over Harbor Freight' s product line which offers the same warranty. Not that I like them any better but, they are popping up everywhere.
Thankfully, I'm closer to the end rather than the beginning of my mechanical repair career. To all you younger folks, all I can offer is to advise you to invest in quality because it pays big dividends. Quality tools Will last you a lifetime.
As for my busted 15mm 6 point socket, it's now a paper weight (with it's own story - which I will relate to anyone who'll listen).
It seems odd to single out and demonize Sears (or even Kmart), for doing something, most every manufacturer on planet earth, has already done, including Snap On (to some extent) etc., which is to move their factories out of the US.
A bankrupted Sears, insisting on paying higher wholesale costs, just for American made tools, is just not realistic in today's global economy.
Asking why anyone would want to pay more for China made Cman over HF, is a very good question. Refusing to do a free warranty swap, because the replacement is made in China, seem fruitless, IMO.
Maybe the socket will be all right. The American made one, obviously did not hold up.
Schurkey
Well-known member
If enough of us demonized them, production would return to North America. I liked the "old" Craftsman--USA production for USA market, Canadian production for the Canadian market. (I have no idea what they did in Mexico.)
Among the biggest lies told to the American consumer is that "there's a global economy". It's not global unless you allow it to be. Given any choice, I won't allow it to be.
I'm right there with him. I refused a warranty swap on a worn-out RHFT "Sears Best" 3/8 ratchet when they tried to give me a "refurbished" piece of **** Chinese replacement. I wouldn't have accepted a brand-new Chinese replacement.
FergusonTO35
Well-known member
The moral of this story is, that my coworkers who used Craftsman did so because it was cheap and convenient, not because they actually cared about their tools. I think this is also why they worked at Sears instead of trying to better themselves somewhere else. These guys resembled the company they worked for. Mediocrity, thy name is Sears!
sberry
Banned
Do these tear jerkers have anything to do with the actual tool?
Why did the old guy stay there?
ganymede
Well-known member
That and apparently amusing somehow...
" I think I'll create a troll persona and start a Craftsman offshoring thread..'tee hee hee ! "
People are already "demonizing" Sears/Kmart - by not shopping there. That's working out pretty well.
Living in denial won't change anything. We Americans like to think "it's all about us", but it really isn't any more.
For instance.
Snap On is in business to turn a profit, for their investors and they know full well, that in order for them to compete in that silly old "global economy" they cannot push their overpriced American made tools globally, so they are opening up factories around the world.
They really don't have a choice. They rest of the world has money to spend also and they could care less, if it's "made in America".
FergusonTO35
Well-known member
My understanding was that he had pay, benefits, and retirement that were no longer available and it was pretty much impossible to find a mechanic job with that kind of compensation. Not to mention the fact that he was such a fixture there that no one could tell him what to do. He began working there around 1967, last I heard he retired a little while after I left.
Wakefield
Well-known member
Go to guy if someone was stumped on a problem ?
FergusonTO35
Well-known member
Yes, he certainly was. Also he had a clientele that would not let anyone else work on their cars.
Very good point. Many made a reasonable career out of working for Sears, for decades.
FergusonTO35
Well-known member
I would have happily stayed there if Sears had given me a reason to. The 2.5 years I spent there showed me quite clearly the direction that the company was heading so I jumped ship.
garthg
Well-known member
I have one Chinese Craftsman socket in my rack of S-K, Craftsman and Snap On 1/2" drive sockets and if I didn't point it out you wouldn't see the difference right away. It's a 15mm so it gets used quite a bit.
I also recently acquired a 1/2" drive breaker bar in a mixed lot of ebay tools and the finish is as nice or nicer than the old Craftsman. It could be Taiwan or China. I have no reason to believe it won't perform as it should.
I also recently acquired a 1/2" drive breaker bar in a mixed lot of ebay tools and the finish is as nice or nicer than the old Craftsman. It could be Taiwan or China. I have no reason to believe it won't perform as it should.
WhiskeyRanger
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2015
- Messages
- 398
I just found out that the Craftsman floor jack I've been using for over 20 years was made in China. Cheap Chinese ****.
I think an easy case can be made.
1. Competition, including off shore competition combined with improved quality from off shore sources have basically forced Sears (and/or their vendors) to move production out of the US to keep prices competitive.
2. The dip in quality is likely more imagined than real. Yes, some of the off shore stuff is lower quality than the old stuff. Some isn't. Also, keep in mind that the cost in adjusted dollars of Cman tools today is cheaper than it was 10, 20, 30+ years ago.
3. Much of the Chicom quality is junk views are not based on a really comparison but instead based on perceptions which can include perception bias.
1. Competition, including off shore competition combined with improved quality from off shore sources have basically forced Sears (and/or their vendors) to move production out of the US to keep prices competitive.
2. The dip in quality is likely more imagined than real. Yes, some of the off shore stuff is lower quality than the old stuff. Some isn't. Also, keep in mind that the cost in adjusted dollars of Cman tools today is cheaper than it was 10, 20, 30+ years ago.
3. Much of the Chicom quality is junk views are not based on a really comparison but instead based on perceptions which can include perception bias.
Corndoggeh
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 2, 2016
- Messages
- 1,198
Sometimes a thought comes across my mind once a month why we go crazy about the quality of old tools. Then I remember that what is leftover would be considered the creme of the crop and the crappy ones of the batch ended up in the trash. Hence why you rarely if ever hear or see antique cast iron anvils, they all got trashed or melted down and the best ones remained.
drink
Well-known member
What the heck, you know the saying. No matter how many tools you have it seems like you always will need another tool of some sort. Yep, I went to Sears and bought more tools to go in my set but these were made in the USA. If a person needs a tool they will buy it.