Heater/AC condensate drain help. (Freezing prevention)

[Jamie V]

I've been working on the "new" pole barn for a few years now and I need some options. I'm a union sheet metal worker by trade so I'm not foreign to heating and cooling but I need a better idea than what I can come up with.

I'm trying to heat and cool my garage year-round and figuring out what to do with the condensate has me stumped. Here are some pictures for reference.





You can see the PVC sleeve on the back wall where I plan to run the line sets and condensate drain out of the building.

The only problem is on the outside of the building I have a concrete apron poured around the pole barn.





I don't want to run the condensate drain right out of the building and have it drip right on the concrete apron. But if I run a long piece of PVC on the outside of the building to get it away from the concrete I will create a freezing problem when the heater is running in the winter time.

I'm trying to make whatever I do look as nice as possible but I also need it to be strong enough so that when my kids and their friends are playing in the yard they don't break anything

My biggest problem is that I have severe OCD and I do not like to put any unnecessary holes through the pole barn or in the concrete. Screwing something to the siding is never going to be an option for me. And I will try everything in my power not to have to put any more holes through the building.

 

[C-Mac]

Any way to stub it out right beside the down spout? That way it could be hidden and drain onto the same ground diverted at the bottom. Small length of heat trace in 1" pvc drain if it's going to be run outside for any considerable length.

 

[Jamie V]

I did consider trying to get into that diverter but with all the framing (4x6 posts, 2x4 girts, 2x4 wall joists and 3/4 sheathing) by the time I put another hole out the side of the barn (which I don't really want to do) I'd be 10" or so from the downspout.

I'm probably going to go out that back sleeve then turn along the back wall and run to the diverter. I'll probably come up off of the concrete with pipe supports to mount it.

Can you put heat trace inside of the pipe?

 

[Ohmthis]

Run it out and 90 it towards the down spout. Either wrap insulation around it or run a heat tape on it and wrap it with insulation. The insulation can be painted if you want it to match.

 

[Jamie V]

That has been the last option for a while I was hoping someone had some brilliant idea that I didn't think of. I was hoping for something I didn't need heat tape with (one more thing to go wrong/bad)

 

[JerryC]

My friend had a new Furnace installed in his house and the installer ran the condensate drain to overflow drain. It froze up at point the drain exited the house and the backup flooded his attic. This in Memphis, I don't see how you avoid that same problem without heating the drain line. His fix was to run the condensate line into the sewer line for the house.
Maybe if the drain has a steep angle to the outside, such as turning the line from the furnace to point directly to the building exit without turning a 90 at the endpoint? You could put another concrete splash guard under that to carry the water off the apron. I'd smooth/chamfer the end of line so that there is not pace for water to catch and freeze to start a dam.

 

[zak77]

How much condensate will be generated in the "freezing" months?

If not much, i wouldnt think there would be when it's in heat mode, that maybe use the bucket route in the cold months but plumb a line outside, down the wall and over to where the splash block is tucked up again the building. T in a shut off valve that'll divert any condensate into the bucket or outside when needed. Yeah it's not 100% automatic but may solve your dilemma on the cheap.

 

[JerryC]

A quick google came up with this:
https://yorkcentraltechtalk.wordpress.com/2012/10/15/furnace-condensate-new-d-o-e-rules-part-2/

 

[Jamie V]

My friend had a new Furnace installed in his house and the installer ran the condensate drain to overflow drain. It froze up at point the drain exited the house and the backup flooded his attic. This in Memphis, I don't see how you avoid that same problem without heating the drain line. His fix was to run the condensate line into the sewer line for the house.
Maybe if the drain has a steep angle to the outside, such as turning the line from the furnace to point directly to the building exit without turning a 90 at the endpoint? You could put another concrete splash guard under that to carry the water off the apron. I'd smooth/chamfer the end of line so that there is not pace for water to catch and freeze to start a dam.

I would have ran another splash guard but the concrete extends 4' on the back of the barn. I don't want the acidic water running off the splash guard onto the apron.

 

[jconnor3]

Maybe use a condensation pump that you run to a floor drain or utility sink?

 

[Jamie V]

My pole barn doesn't have any drainage so that's not an option. I wish I had have had enough foresight to put a drain on for the condensate.

 

[Jamie V]

I ran the heater this past winter with 5 gallon buckets being swapped out for the condensate and the vent hardly dripped at all. I'm not sure if it's because it is very short in length and the water isn't having an chance to condense or if it's condensing in the pipe (which I pitched back) ???

But back to the original question you asked.....

I know I don't want to just let the condensate drip right on the concrete apron whether it be from the air conditioner or the heater. I have no problem running some PVC piping away from the building (supported from the concrete below along the back of the wall towards the gutter downspout). What I'm trying to come up with is another idea besides having to do that and then wrap it with heat tape. It just seems like the heat tape is one more thing that can break causing a problem.

One idea that I heard was to not put a trap in the drainpipe where the condensate comes out of the evaporator coil. This was to allow warm air to blow down the drain pipe when the heater is running. I'm not sure if that's enough warm air to keep it from freezing on the outside of the building.

 

[Jamie V]

I'm trying as hard as I can not to put another hole in the barn but that might be the best idea yet.

I could run the drain around the back of the heater to the other side before going out so I don't have to go in front of my trick return filter rack/stand.

 

[arsco]

please for the love of all things great change that filter stand to hold at least a 2" if not more filter

 

[Jamie V]

please for the love of all things great change that filter stand to hold at least a 2" if not more filter

Sorry, I'm not remaking it.

 

[gregtwojeeps]

No need in changing the filter rack size to 2 in.really. The OP if needed, can just go to a higher efficiency filter. Appears he is using a 35% and could go to a 65% but being a shop... at the risk of more often filter changes and a little reduced air flow. Depends on how well he wants to keep the inside of his duct work clean. JMO

 

[914wilhelm]

How about taking that drain and running it straight down through a hole drilled through the slab adjacent to the building? Then tunnel under the sidewalk to the pipe stub and either run pipe to the stub out to the edge of the side walk and then dig a dry well or pack under the sidewalk with gravel. All of this should not take more than two hours.

 

[Jamie V]

So core a hole down then tunnel under to it from outside.... Interesting.....

Wonder how hard it will be to dig through the crushed concrete under the slab????

 

[Jamie V]

So update.... I decided just to poke it out the sleeve that was already there then I put a 4' splash guard under it to get off the concrete apron.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Your lack of water last winter was from not having a trap. BTW, the one you have now is worthless, especially the way it's piped. You need (2) traps on that system, one one each drain outlet and you need a cap on the cleanout.

Tommy

 

[Jamie V]

Tom, I'm a bit confused so help me out if you can.

Lack of water was referring to dripping from the concentric vent not lack of water coming from the heater itself. It filled the 5 gallon bucket no problem after a good Saturday out there. There is a trap built into the heater inside.

Why can't one trap be used for both the heater and evaporator?

I plan on capping the top pipe.

I'll take any info I can get.

 

[Jamie V]

Hello? You come on here and tell me that I do it all wrong and then don't follow up with any recommendations?

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Sorry for not checking in. I didn't understand what you meant when you said the furnace wasn't making water. I also didn't mean to infer it's all wrong. If the furnace has an internal trap it's obviously fine, but there still needs to be a trap on the condensate drain on the evaporator up above. Air can **** backwards from the furnace drain and prevent proper drainage of the evaporator.

I said the trap was worthless because those super shallow U-traps are not properly designed and shouldn't even be sold. They are not deep enough to hold enough water to create a proper seal. As for the cleanout, you just need a cap on the top if the cleanout, like you just said you were going to do. Without it, the trap does not function at all as the air just ***** right in from the top.

Tommy

 

[bonneyman]

It also looks like it's a condensing-type of furnace: they make very acidic condensate when the furnace is running. You probably don't want that just dripping onto the concrete slab outside.

 

[Jamie V]

It also looks like it's a condensing-type of furnace: they make very acidic condensate when the furnace is running. You probably don't want that just dripping onto the concrete slab outside.

I know, that's why I started the thread.

I don't want to run the condensate drain right out of the building and have it drip right on the concrete apron.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

It also looks like it's a condensing-type of furnace: they make very acidic condensate when the furnace is running. You probably don't want that just dripping onto the concrete slab outside.

I totally forgot that. You need a neutralizer by code.

Tommy

 

[Jamie V]

You need a neutralizer to just dump outside? I thought only if you went into the building drain pipes.

 

[bonneyman]

Oops. Didn't realize you knew about the acidity.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

You need a neutralizer to just dump outside? I thought only if you went into the building drain pipes.

It's code around here on all condensing gas fired equipment. Maybe not in your area. I also just remembered why I originally said the A/C and furnace must have separate drains. Running them together can cause the furnace Blocked Drain Shutdown switch to malfunction, the furnace has a built in trap so the drain needs an open top and the A/C drain needs an external trap with a capped clean out.


Tommy

 

[Jamie V]

We don't need a neutralizer here that I know of unless you're going into the buildings drains.

I went and got a P-trap this morning and I'm going to re-do the set up. I'm not running two separate lines out the building though especially when only one item runs at a time. i'm going to try and put a trap right off of the coil and then tie both lines together.

If the drain line has an open top after both of the traps wont that allow insects to enter the building?

 

[LS6 Tommy]

We don't need a neutralizer here that I know of unless you're going into the buildings drains.

I went and got a P-trap this morning and I'm going to re-do the set up. I'm not running two separate lines out the building though especially when only one item runs at a time. i'm going to try and put a trap right off of the coil and then tie both lines together.

If the drain line has an open top after both of the traps wont that allow insects to enter the building?

The open top is usually teed in right at the furnace drain outlet. I'd just cut in a tee on the "run" in after the A/C P-trap outlet and stub up from the "bull" like a cleanout, but just don't put a cap on it.

Most installation manuals usually have a piping diagram if there are specific requirements. If you have the manual I bet you can refer to it.

Tommy

 

[Jamie V]

Sure wish the AC was on out there, it HOT.

I came up with this, what do you think?

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Perfect! Beautifully done.
Now is where I start to sound like a jerk.
Is that a secondary condensate drain on the evaporator ssection? I didn't notice it in the first set of pictures as I was only looking at the drain lines. If it is, it's technically supposed to have a separate drain, but it's not critical to the operation of the machine. If you ever decide to add one, I'd just pipe it down to a bucket or a small pan under the stand. It never drains anything in normal use, only if the main drain line plugs.

Tommy

 

[Jamie V]

Now I'm totally confused???

 

[Jamie V]

Now I got you.



The secondary is if the primary gets clogged. So I can just put a pipe out down to the floor (it's just a garage) and water will only come out if the first one clogs. Do I have to trap that line too?

All these lines are nuts? Do you put a drain pan under your toilet incase the kids overflow it? It's redundancy at it's finest....

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Now I got you.



The secondary is if the primary gets clogged. So I can just put a pipe out down to the floor (it's just a garage) and water will only come out if the first one clogs. Do I have to trap that line too?

All these lines are nuts? Do you put a drain pan under your toilet incase the kids overflow it? It's redundancy at it's finest....

I would trap it. NJ also requires an emergency pan under the whole unit with it's own drain line. Most of the time, the secondary just drains into the emergency pan and the drain from that is piped out of the attic to an area where the dripping would be quickly noticed..

Tommy

 

[Jamie V]

So I have to have a emergency pan under the unit and a drain line off a secondary drain for a unit that heats a garage sitting on the garage floor?

We're not talking about a unit that feeds a house, or living space. We're talking about a unit that heats/cools my vehicle.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

So I have to have a emergency pan under the unit and a drain line off a secondary drain for a unit that heats a garage sitting on the garage floor?

We're not talking about a unit that feeds a house, or living space. We're talking about a unit that heats/cools my vehicle.

I agree completely. I was just stating how nuts the requirements can be...

Tommy

 

[Jamie V]

Yea, I'm just going to leave it the way it is now. I ain't doing all that!

 

[BD1]

Just curious, do you have a manual with your unit ?? Most have detailed instructions on what they want and what to do.
Is adding a condensate pump and running discharge to a better location a option ?