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Another 'What Is It' and Unique Item Thread

7th Kahuna

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Attended my first barn sale. You know we don't get many of those here in the city. Unfortunately they didn't actually let us into the barn. The owner, who appeared to be in either his late 70's or early 80's said his family had just been stuffing stuff into it since his grandfather built it oh so many years ago. I have to say I believe it. (Kitchen sink, check; Victorian piano, check; harvest boxes, check; Model 'A' parts, check; buck board, check) Though it was well picked over before I got there, there was still a lot of interesting stuff. I mostly picked up odds and ends however; brass screws, brass chain, brass pipe fittings, stuff that costs you an-arm-and-a-leg at the box store, assuming you can find it at the box store. I wish I could have seen it before it all got drug out into the yard and mixed up. Anyhow here are a few items that came home with me.

aug16myst01.jpg


First are the two Blackhawk Sockets. I found a reference to these in the 1928 catalog. I have never seen sockets for square nuts before. I remember seeing large square nuts on various old equipment as a kid. Is that the sort of thing these were for or did they have another more common use? These are for 1" and 1.25". They almost look galvanized. Perhaps a heavily oxidized cadmium coating?

The Craftsman wrench was of interest. I have not seen one like it before. Pre WWII I'd guess. 1/2" and 9/16".


The item with the navy blue shaft appears that it would work with a standard brace (i.e. brace and bit). The only marking on it says 1/2". The curved sheet metal portion has a taper ground on the inside of the curve. It appears to be new, but I can't imagine what it was intended for unless it was for winding something. Anyone?


The final item in this photo appears to be a plumb bob but there are things going on that I don't understand. First, the form is odd, long and thin, and knurled. Then, as you might have noted in the photo below, the top screws off. Inside the body, note the threaded plug. I can't budge the plug and I am not sure I want to. There is something behind it. I am wondering if it might be filled with mercury. Something moves around inside when I shake it. It feels neither like a spring nor like water. Mercury would help to settle it, if it is a plumb bob, but the long narrow body seems like it would defeat any advantage such a dampener might have provided. Then the knurling would suggest there is a reason to want to open it. If it were a plumb bob, especially a mercury filled plumb bob, there's no reason. It would be like having a removable door on the side of a shot filled dead blow hammer. So what is it?

aug16myst02.jpg


aug16myst03.jpg


Now I'm pretty sure this one is a plumb bob, but it is the size of a small avocado and weights two pounds. There is a hole in the middle of the top cap but it doesn't go through. I have been experimenting with ways to tie it through the large side opening and still have it fall straight. You would think given the weight it would fall straight no matter what, but that isn't necessarily true. In any case, it will work as a plumb bob for longer drops. I'd just like to know if that was the original intent.


The little brass catch is a curiosity. I expected when I pushed the arm from one side to the other that a catch would be released (like a window lock). When I got it home, I realized that all it does is extend or retract the 'T' shaped portion on a cam. In the photo it is in its extended position. It came out of a box of old carriage and car parts but my guess is that it isn't more than 40 years old. Thoughts?

aug16myst04.jpg


aug16myst05.jpg


This last item came out of box of maintenance items from UC San Diego. It looks to have been shop made. My guess is that it is for chiseling (embossing) boxes into wood for small signs or something similar. I'm just not sure how effective it would be unless you hit it really hard or the wood was really soft. This leads me to ask if maybe it was for some other purpose. (It seems to have gypsum dust on it?) I know it's a long shot but maybe someone has seen something like it. Maybe someone here is retired from UCSD's maintenance department. Whoever made it did a nice job.

aug16myst06.jpg


aug16myst07.jpg


More stuff for those who are curious. There are a few gems in there but mostly just stuff. As I joked with the guy, 'From your barn to my garage.' :D

aug16st01.jpg


That gouge, which doesn't appear to have ever been used, was made in Sheffield England by King George's official 'x' maker. I'm not sure what 'x' was but I'm guessing it had something to do with blades.

In the whole place I saw four sockets and I went through a lot of boxes to find those. There were of course the two Blackhawks mentioned earlier and the two 12 point sockets you see here, a Plomb and a New Britian. The first I found was the 1/2" drive, 12 pt, 7/8", war finish Plomb socket. Several years back I picked up a set of 1/2" drive, 12 pt, mostly war finish, mostly Plomb sockets. I say mostly Plomb because the 7/8" socket was a Proto. Funny how these things work out. I didn't realize my luck until I got home.

aug16st02.jpg


Those boring bars, I assume they are boring bars, look to be hand forged. The body of each is a unique size. The blunt ends look to have been torn from the original stock. They don't look like much, but I think they could break our little Logan metal lathe.

aug16st03.jpg
 
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drivesitfar

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7th: great idea to start a thread of your items that you find that you want to know what they are or how to use them. finding a drawer full of old door locks and window locks is a good thing especially if you want to build something that looks somewhat vintage. a lot of them might be brass so shine them up and find a good spot for them or if you don't need them maybe another member might have a trade or cash in mind for them.

if you want to learn a little more about how to shine up some brass take a peek at DON LONG'S garage gallery thread and i'm sure you'll like the other stuff on it too. here's the link.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=153099

yes the avocado size piece is a plumb bob so get some string and use it because the heavier the better usually. also some were made out of brass, but that one looks like cast, but either way you can spiff it up and find a use for it if you don't already own a nice one.

i'll pop in and check out your stuff as i can and thanks for reviving the old Pics thread that i really like and forgot about. yes old Long C craftsman tools were pre WWII and keepers.

cheers
 

Lee Celtic

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The Knurled bob thing.. does it look like it takes a junior hacksaw blade to turn it into a sort of pad saw.?

And the rectangular punch.. is it for punching outlet socket placements in drywall.? you can get modern tools that are similar and fit into SDS drills. (hammer setting only)
 
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7th Kahuna

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7th: great idea to start a thread of your items that you find that you want to know what they are or how to use them. finding a drawer full of old door locks and window locks is a good thing especially if you want to build something that looks somewhat vintage. a lot of them might be brass so shine them up and find a good spot for them.

cheers

Thanks as always <b>drivesitfar</b>, I really do need to start a proper Kahuna thread, maybe more than one. I have been holding off until my dad and I got our shop underway / finished but that has been delayed due to a serious injury.

There are certain bits of hardware I just can't pass up, as I suspect you can tell. This guy had quite a range. I was wondering if the brass chain may have been for suspending window weights on double hung windows. The window locks are iron, but the old door locks do appear to be brass and will probably go in my shop when I finally get a chance to build one.

The 2 lb plumb bob is cast, I haven't found any deals on brass plumb bobs. I have a couple small ones as well. When my dad and I set the ridge beam for the new shop we used one of my small ones on the end of a 15 foot string. It wouldn't hang still. I bought the big one almost as a joke. He just came home from 4 months in care. The giant plumb bob was to say 'hurry up, let's get back to work.' :)

The Knurled bob thing.. does it look like it takes a junior hacksaw blade to turn it into a sort of pad saw.?

And the rectangular punch.. is it for punching outlet socket placements in drywall.? you can get modern tools that are similar and fit into SDS drills. (hammer setting only)

Interesting idea, but I don't see how, I'll have to look into 'pad saws'. As for the punch, you may have hit the nail of the head as we say. Not sure how well it would work, but it is about the right size. I figured there would be no response on that one. :thumbup:
 

Davefr

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I don't think that's a plumb bob. I'm guessing it's a counterweight for raising and lowering window sashes. The window latch next to it is kind of a clue IMHO. (along with the sash cord and other window hardware)

A plumb bob without a fine point and without a center hole would be kind of useless for it's intended purpose IMHO.

The rectangular thing might be a door hinge mortise jig but it's just a guess.
 
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Provincial

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If you used the rectangular punch to mark/cut the drywall for an electrical outlet box, the hole would not have to be at a stud, since "remodeling" boxes are readily available that slip into place from the outside and have clamps that tighten to lock them to the drywall.

Lots of neat stuff! The family must have had eclectic interests in order to accumulate such a variety.
 

drivesitfar

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Provi: i bet you are right or that cutting tool is for something like that. or it could be used for something like that.

Dave: it's got enough of a point to work as a plumb bob and i can't say i've seen any window weights that big or that shape and i've seen more than a few. you could be right, but i bet with a little string and cleaning up the point it could work.
 

woody 73

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Don't you dare clean up that point (drivesitfar go finish your golf game) leave that point alone period!

Look at the very top for a tiny microscopic hole you will put your string into that hole (you might need a needle) when it goes through take a pick and either push or pull the string left/or right tie a knot and you are good to go. Do not clean it up and leave that point alone it should set straight when hung upright.
 

drivesitfar

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Woody: sorry to admit this but i have only played 2 rounds of golf in the last 5 years, but i could probably still compete in the GJ tournament and hold my own.

that said glad to hear i got your Scandinavian or German or Irish blood or whatever you have in your arteries and veins running a bit better.

so any pictures of it in it's actual use? you know we LOVE PICTURES

cheers and glad we figured it out because 7th's dad want's to finish his shop before he goes to that great garage/shop in the sky.
 
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7th Kahuna

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I don't think that's a plumb bob. I'm guessing it's a counterweight for raising and lowering window sashes.

The rectangular thing might be a door hinge mortise jig but it's just a guess.

I wondered about the counterweight idea but that seems like a strange approach for a window small enough to be balanced by even a pair of two pound weights. Why not narrow and longer to fit easily into a small pocket. It also suffers the same issue it suffers as a plumb bob as the string does not self center. You would have to tie some fancy knot.

I have really discounted the idea of the other item being used with wood. The 'cut' measures 2.5" x 4.25". The cutting edge appears to be an old planer knife. Imagine how hard you would have to hit it to sink 13.5 linear inches of chisel into even soft pine. I have the same concern with drywall. The force required could do some damage. I'll have to dig out an old piece of drywall. I am curious about it's use but unlike the other items, I didn't actually choose to come home with that one. It came of its own accord.

Lots of neat stuff! The family must have had eclectic interests in order to accumulate such a variety.

Five generations on one property all cleaning house into the same barn . . . It was bound to happen. I really wish I could have gone inside.

Don't you dare clean up that point (drivesitfar go finish your golf game) leave that point alone period!

Look at the very top for a tiny microscopic hole you will put your string into that hole (you might need a needle) when it goes through take a pick and either push or pull the string left/or right tie a knot and you are good to go. Do not clean it up and leave that point alone it should set straight when hung upright.

Perhaps it is a casting issue, but the hole you see in the top doesn't go but half way through. I've punched at it pretty hard. If I want a hole, I'm going to have to drill it out. Without that hole, it really doesn't offer any easy means of hanging it straight. I've been running through all the Boy Scout knots I can remember. :lol: My other concern is one of age. If this plumb bob predated nylon, you'd be contemplating hanging a two pound pointy object from a fairly fine cotton or linen thread, fished through a hole with potentially sharp edges. Now if it predates nylon, I'd suggest it predates OSHA, but just the same, a larger hole would have made better sense than what we see there. Maybe that hole was just to start the drill.

so any pictures of it in it's actual use? you know we LOVE PICTURES

cheers and glad we figured it out because 7th's dad want's to finish his shop before he goes to that great garage/shop in the sky.

My best luck so far was a harness tied from an old flat shoe lace, but i wasn't satisfied. Next I'm planning a double looped hangman's knot. Never seen one? Neither have I. Not sure if I can tie one. If it is going to end up being a plumb bob, then I will probably have to drill out that hole. If on the other hand it isn't a plumb bob, I hate to damage it. Thursday I killed an assassin bug after misjudging its purpose in life, don't want to make the same mistake with this, not just yet.

Dad almost made that trip sooner than expected. He had an extension ladder collapse out from under him. Fractured his skull, broke his arm, broke one rib, tore his septum, and broke five vertebra in his neck. The emergency doctor said it was the worst neck break they had ever seen a patient survive. That was in late March. He just returned home three weeks ago. After being in the brace and on his back for so long, he is having a bit of trouble getting around, and being the stubborn man he is, we are having a hard time getting him to do the work he needs to do to rebuild the muscles in his neck and legs.

We still don't know what happened with the ladder. Folks had been up and down it several times over two days before it let go. He is planning to retire all his ladders now. Probably a good idea, unfortunately, he wants to retire mine as well. Brings new meaning to being grounded.
 
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7th Kahuna

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I love those trammel points!

Which set? I went from not having any to having two sets in one day. The heavy set was rusted solid. They are steal with brass knobs. I've got one point loose, which I suppose is all I need, but I don't intend to quit until I've got it all apart and working like new. They appear to be stamped T.A.Lewis. I haven't been able to find any info on the maker and I'm not sure what those would have been used for. Maybe for laying out walls?

The smaller ones, which turned out to be solid brass with steal points, are missing their rod, but a new one can be made. One of the points has a 'mount' on the side with a locking screw. Oddly it is not quite big enough to fit a standard pencil. (Nothing a little sandpaper won't solve.) Not sure what fit in it originally. For all I know it was in the box. That box was a real mess with more than a few sharp edges. Found a few items in there. :D Like the other set, I need to get this one cleaned up. Someone has sprayed one point with red paint.
 
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neophyte

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That item from the first photo, you think might be a plumb bob, but are not sure of, is likely s mercury filly plumb bob.

Starrett and other companies that made machinists tools, manufactored plumb bobs with a similar long round shape, sometimes with knurling, and a removable top. The recessed section on the screw in cap, next to the knurling would be were you wind the plumb bob string.

That particular plumb bob sort of looks likes some made by Brown and Sharpe. I would presume if it was made by brown and Sharpe it would have been marked, but it could have slso been made private label, or from one of the outside contractors Brown and Sharpe contracted with during their union troubles. It could also be from another machinist tool manufacturer since alot of designs from different compsnies can be very similar.
 
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7th Kahuna

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That item from the first photo, you think might be a plumb bob, but are not sure of, is likely a mercury filly plumb bob.

How very interesting. I guess I should take my own guesses more seriously. I had no basis for thinking mercury other than a very lightly educated guess. Never occurred to me to google it. My theory for why mercury would be used was off however. From my research:

MERCURY IS HEAVIER THAN IRON OR BRASS. SO IT
WAS USED TO MAKE A PLUMB BOB HEAVIER. A
MERCURY FILLED PLUMB BOB HAS LESS SURFACE AND
LESS RESISTANCE FOR THE WIND FORCE AS A BRASS
OR IRON PLUMB BOB OF THE SAME WEIGHT.


So far I have been unable to find a match for it online, but there are several that look similar. Thanks.
 

Rileysan

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Very nice haul!

The item with the navy blue shaft appears that it would work with a standard brace (i.e. brace and bit). The only marking on it says 1/2". The curved sheet metal portion has a taper ground on the inside of the curve. It appears to be new, but I can't imagine what it was intended for unless it was for winding something. Anyone?



I believe it is a a wood dowel/plug cutter.


Now I'm pretty sure this one is a plumb bob, but it is the size of a small avocado and weights two pounds. There is a hole in the middle of the top cap but it doesn't go through. I have been experimenting with ways to tie it through the large side opening and still have it fall straight. You would think given the weight it would fall straight no matter what, but that isn't necessarily true. In any case, it will work as a plumb bob for longer drops. I'd just like to know if that was the original intent.

It's a plumb bob. I will join the others in speculating and say that it is an unfinished tool. The bottom should be drilled and tapped to allow for replaceable tips and the hanger portion appears to show rough casting that was never cleaned up. There's a thread dedicated to unfinished tools on GJ that shows a lot of interesting items. I'd guess your plumb bob would fit in nicely.


Brian
 
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neophyte

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How very interesting. I guess I should take my own guesses more seriously. I had no basis for thinking mercury other than a very lightly educated guess. Never occurred to me to google it. My theory for why mercury would be used was off however. From my research:

MERCURY IS HEAVIER THAN IRON OR BRASS. SO IT
WAS USED TO MAKE A PLUMB BOB HEAVIER. A
MERCURY FILLED PLUMB BOB HAS LESS SURFACE AND
LESS RESISTANCE FOR THE WIND FORCE AS A BRASS
OR IRON PLUMB BOB OF THE SAME WEIGHT.


So far I have been unable to find a match for it online, but there are several that look similar. Thanks.


I think I might have found a match for your plumb bob. It's not exact, but it's close enough that yours might be a slightly earlier or later model, or maybe a slight variation due to being a different weight from the one pictured. The plumb bob I found is an early variation of the L.S. Starrett model 87 mercury plumb bob, pictured in The Iron Age, volume 69, from 1902. The bob pictured has the string coming directly out of the top, rather than a through hole, which is how starrett still manufactures the design of the their plumb bobs, so I would presume yours might be an earlier example.

https://books.google.com/books?id=c...AQgpMAM#v=onepage&q=mercury plumb bob&f=false
 

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drivesitfar

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Neo: thanks for the picture because some of us (or at least I was) were talking about this being a big Avocado size plumb bob. i still think the bigger one (in this picture) is a plumb bob and not a window weight, but i can be persuaded with proof either in a catalog picture or something with a picture of it in use.

i totally agree that the little thing is a plumb bob but it would never work outside especially in the midwest or south where the wind would have it blowing all over the map.

7th: here's to your DAD and hoping he keeps getting better so he can finish some of the stuff on his (and maybe yours) TO DO LIST.
 

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Provincial

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Two for One Answer Photo:

This is from the Number 28 Starrett tool catalog, dated 1938.

The top illustration shows how the large plumb bob can be hung without a center hole.

The bottom right illustration shows how the small plumb bob is used, and also a cut-away of the mercury-filled chamber.

Enjoy! Also a larger version in PDF - :pimpflash
 

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7th Kahuna

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I believe it is a a wood dowel/plug cutter.


It's a plumb bob. I will join the others in speculating and say that it is an unfinished tool. The bottom should be drilled and tapped to allow for replaceable tips and the hanger portion appears to show rough casting that was never cleaned up. There's a thread dedicated to unfinished tools on GJ that shows a lot of interesting items. I'd guess your plumb bob would fit in nicely.


Brian

Interesting thought on the plug cutter. Surprisingly, or not, there is a similar, but much nicer made, forged version on eBay right now. The problem with mine is it has no cutting edge, even if you could work out how to start it. It would need at least one tooth. :dunno: Could it be that it was the precursor and model for the raft of cheap, occasionally functional tools, that would begin to arrive from Asia 30 or 50 years later. That too might explain why a search for vintage plug cutter turns up nothing that looks like it. They all got tossed long ago.

Thanks for the note about the unfinished tool thread, I'll have to take a look.

I think I might have found a match for your plumb bob. It's not exact, but it's close enough that yours might be a slightly earlier or later model, or maybe a slight variation due to being a different weight from the one pictured. The plumb bob I found is an early variation of the L.S. Starrett model 87 mercury plumb bob, pictured in The Iron Age, volume 69, from 1902. The bob pictured has the string coming directly out of the top, rather than a through hole, which is how starrett still manufactures the design of the their plumb bobs, so I would presume yours might be an earlier example.

Thanks for taking the time to look and share. They do look very similar. I have searched mine for a name or number, but there is nothing. I'm certainly glad I picked it up, none the less.

Neo: thanks for the picture because some of us (or at least I was) were talking about this being a big Avocado size plumb bob. i still think the bigger one (in this picture) is a plumb bob and not a window weight, but i can be persuaded with proof either in a catalog picture or something with a picture of it in use.

i totally agree that the little thing is a plumb bob but it would never work outside especially in the midwest or south where the wind would have it blowing all over the map.

7th: here's to your DAD and hoping he keeps getting better so he can finish some of the stuff on his (and maybe yours) TO DO LIST.

I am going to have to do some research into window weights, but for the reasons I stated above, like you I tend to doubt that was it's purpose. More over, if it were a window weight, they would have cast the top differently to make tying the cord more straight forward.

As for the 'mercury' plumb bob, I thought I would weigh my collection. I think I need to top off the mercury. Here we are, excluding the two pound avocado.

bobs.JPG


From left to right; a modern box store General Instruments model 6 oz,
the mercury filled model 7 oz,
the child's top 10 oz
the large Millers Falls model 12 oz

My scale isn't super accurate for these lighter items, but you get the idea.

I spent Sunday with dad, each week seems better. Getting him back into physical therapy this week should help.

Two for One Answer Photo:

This is from the Number 28 Starrett tool catalog, dated 1938.

The top illustration shows how the large plumb bob can be hung without a center hole.

The bottom right illustration shows how the small plumb bob is used, and also a cut-away of the mercury-filled chamber.

Enjoy! Also a larger version in PDF - :pimpflash

Thanks, needed to look at the pdf before I quoted your post. Can't read the photo. In the 1967 version of the Starrett catalog, they offer four plumb bobs, two mercury and two steel.

Mercury:
87A 3.5 oz
87B 6 oz

Steel
177A 2.75 oz
177B 5 oz

Both 'A's and both 'B's have the same barrel length and diameter.
 

jimreed2160

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Re: your trammel sets
The brass ones are perfect for woodworking. The woodworker would craft a suitable beam. Most of mine are 24-36" long, but I once used a six foot beam for laying out an arc. The steel trammels are for metalwork. Soak them in liquid wrench or wd40 and they will probably work just fine.

Re: the plumb bob mystery
I will throw my hat in the ring on this one. I think the plumb bob is a mason's bob and was used to pull a line for brickwork. Plumb bob precision depends on the task. Some tasks require great precision and some require less precision. Because of its shape, I think your bob was more about the plumb line than where the bob pointed.

Looks like you made a nice haul. Congrats.
 
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