Above 1200 Sq/FT Cleaning Up My Shop

[jbmatth]

My $0.01 worth of advice would be to pull the engine and at least have a look at the rings with that mark on the wall. It'd be the pits having to do this all over for saving a bit of time now.

Of course if you have it apart to check the rings you might as well just have them on hand to replace them, and bearings, and... well you get the point, before you know it Bob will be Bob the Brawny Builder Bobcat.

You might be wondering why my advise is only worth about half as much as those such as 1/2 Cup that have had at least 27 times the experience with this stuff as I have.
JB

 

[jbmatth]

...

Case in point: When I was commuting and averaging 100 miles per day, I would occasionally slip up and get metal to metal on my disc brakes. I would sacrifice a set of pads and they would slick the rotor right up before they were worn out. You buy pads for both sides, install on the bad side only, then a few thousand miles later install the second set on the bad side. I've never had pulsating pedal, warped rotor, or any other side effects. New pads on grooved rotors wear in quickly and you actually then have more braking area with the grooved profile. This method is not for everyone, and I would not do it on someone else's car, but it was my minimum overall cost solution. Mind you, I never intended to get to metal to metal, but when trying to get pads to under 1/8" to avoid throwing away good pads, sometimes you do get busy and forget to check. Not much of an engineer, am I

Repair centered maintenance at its finest, if you can live with the consequences and can take the downtime, or make the downtime work then I say go for it! I hate to admit it but I do the same thing after weighing the options/consequences.

JB

 

[Terrick down Under]

I used to drive to the end of the pads also. I would carry an old set in behind the back seat and just pull over and jack up the wheel and change them out straight away. It was usually the left hand side that would wear out first, so changing them on the side of the road was not too bad.....don't forget... we are right hand drive!!
Reminds me of a funny story.
We were on a dirt road and I was just winding the jack down on the front left hand side and the jack handle came flying off the jack and smashed me right across the nose, yep broke it. NO, that's not the funny side. A few months before hand I had seen a specialist about my sinus condition ( really bad hay fever) and he had me booked in to get my nose cracked open and straightened.....well the jack handle hit from the correct side and broke it back to straight. Yep I can breathe thru my nose for the first time since I was 16 years old. The surgeon phoned me the next day to confirm the appointment, so I had the greatest pleasure in cancelling.
Well, I thought it was funny.

 

[oldironfarmer]

My $0.01 worth of advice would be to pull the engine and at least have a look at the rings with that mark on the wall. It'd be the pits having to do this all over for saving a bit of time now.

Of course if you have it apart to check the rings you might as well just have them on hand to replace them, and bearings, and... well you get the point, before you know it Bob will be Bob the Brawny Builder Bobcat.

You might be wondering why my advise is only worth about half as much as those such as 1/2 Cup that have had at least 27 times the experience with this stuff as I have.
JB

You hit on precisely why I'm struggling with this. I've got about three hours learning curve to pull the head, and will have a couple of hours in cleanup and then a couple more assembly with a $600 head and $200 in gaskets. I'm expecting 8 to ten hours for me to learn how to pull the engine and once I've got it out, a good used engine is $1,400. Hard to justify an overhaul, probably $2,000 in parts, some outside work, and likely several weeks downtime.

Can you tell I'm confused? Once I settle on a path it's easy to pursue a goal, but determining the best path when you're a novice is difficult.

But I think I found the root problem. The fan drive belt idler seems to be bottomed out. The fan feels tight, but when you pull and let the idler go it seems to hit a stop. I think the fan belt was just at the point of slipping enough to not quite cool the engine properly. Regardless, that's getting corrected. And the temperature sender connection was corroded. I doubt I was getting a good reading on the temperature gauge.

 

[Terrick down Under]

JB is correct, if you have it this far, then it will drive nuts if something shows up next month.
So, a Head job ($600), gaskets ($200), hone the bores, set of rings ($100??) AND FLUSH OUT THE OIL ($50), especially if it has had coolant contaminate it!!! Then it is just your labour and you will know that you have done the right thing.
This is something you don't "want to do 8 or 10 times"

 

[don long]

I really like Phillips' logo but Mr. Skelly won out.

I just found a Phillips 66 pole sign that will require a road trip pulling a trailer.
It's over 18' tall. I will go get it in a few weeks.

 

[jbmatth]

I really like Phillips' logo but Mr. Skelly won out.

I just found a Phillips 66 pole sign that will require a road trip pulling a trailer.
It's over 18' tall. I will go get it in a few weeks.

As you and OIF know I'm a fan of P66, especially those two days a month when their name is on the check I get in exchange for 60-100 hour weeks. I'd like it more if they paid overtime for salaried employees though.
JB

 

[North Run Grader]

We just picked up our 1998 863 from the mechanics shop. Repair bill included rebuilding a steering cylinder for our motor grader, so I'm not sure of the price breakdown yet. Horse traded some steel beams left over from my Dad's acreage for a final bill of $806.

Oil cooled Deutz engine that was overheating. We supplied all the parts and supplies, best money we have spent. Replaced the thermostat, 2 oil heater lines, 2 weeping hydraulic lines, fan belt tensioner components, repaired some bad electrical grounds, all new belts, filters, and engine mounts. My garage is not tall enough to lift the cab and I do not have the patience to work in a Bobcat engine compartment anymore.

We used to remove snow around remote oilfield plants, with the last oil boom, there were 32 local skid steers for a town with a population of 2000 people. As a result we haven't used the 863 commercially for the last 2 years as it wasn't worth the hassle of losing a motor grader operator to make $50 less per hour. So other then our driveways, it has been a handy lawn ornament. Now with around half of the competition going bankrupt, downsizing, or moving away we have picked up 2 contracts in town and if I can log another 1000 trouble free machine hours the 863 will have paid for itself around 8 times over.

My long winded point is this, unless you have a long term commitment I wouldn't bother with a full engine rebuild. As you said, it may smoke a little and consume a little oil, but it's not being asked to be doing 10 hr shifts for the foreseeable future. On a small farm setting I think if you track the hour meter I very much doubt you will average more then 10 hrs a week.

I just wanted to add, I've been enjoying your thread from the beginning and until now didn't have anything to contribute. I want to thank you for continuing to post your progress and I check in every day to follow along with your journey. I grew up on a small farm and many days, especially during harvest I miss it, my one regret when my Dad sold his acerage is I didn't have anywhere to store his 1952 Case tractor. It was the very first piece of equipment that I ever ran, almost 35 years ago now. Please feel free to post more pictures of your collection.

 

[oldironfarmer]

I used to drive to the end of the pads also. I would carry an old set in behind the back seat and just pull over and jack up the wheel and change them out straight away. It was usually the left hand side that would wear out first, so changing them on the side of the road was not too bad.....don't forget... we are right hand drive!!
Reminds me of a funny story.
We were on a dirt road and I was just winding the jack down on the front left hand side and the jack handle came flying off the jack and smashed me right across the nose, yep broke it. NO, that's not the funny side. A few months before hand I had seen a specialist about my sinus condition ( really bad hay fever) and he had me booked in to get my nose cracked open and straightened.....well the jack handle hit from the correct side and broke it back to straight. Yep I can breathe thru my nose for the first time since I was 16 years old. The surgeon phoned me the next day to confirm the appointment, so I had the greatest pleasure in cancelling.
Well, I thought it was funny.

Your brake pad story is good enough, then you let on about your self administered surgery. I'm glad I'm not the only one that used (used?) to carry spare parts with him rather than change them early. Thanks for sharing that story!

JB is correct, if you have it this far, then it will drive nuts if something shows up next month.
So, a Head job ($600), gaskets ($200), hone the bores, set of rings ($100??) AND FLUSH OUT THE OIL ($50), especially if it has had coolant contaminate it!!! Then it is just your labour and you will know that you have done the right thing.
This is something you don't "want to do 8 or 10 times"

I've struggled with this for a couple of days. Earlier today I decided to go ahead and pull the engine. It is a big job to pull the engine out on a Bobcat. It's not like all I have to do is pull the pan and get the rod caps off. If I could get to the rod caps they would already be off. Got started cleaning out and prepping to pull it. Came in for lunch and read North Run Grader's comments and got back on the fence.

I really like Phillips' logo but Mr. Skelly won out.

I just found a Phillips 66 pole sign that will require a road trip pulling a trailer.
It's over 18' tall. I will go get it in a few weeks.

You ****!

I could save you the trouble of taking a taxing road trip

As you and OIF know I'm a fan of P66, especially those two days a month when their name is on the check I get in exchange for 60-100 hour weeks. I'd like it more if they paid overtime for salaried employees though.
JB

And for those of us that live near Route 66, the Phillips 66 signs are just great.

We just picked up our 1998 863 from the mechanics shop. Repair bill included rebuilding a steering cylinder for our motor grader, so I'm not sure of the price breakdown yet. Horse traded some steel beams left over from my Dad's acreage for a final bill of $806.

Oil cooled Deutz engine that was overheating. We supplied all the parts and supplies, best money we have spent. Replaced the thermostat, 2 oil heater lines, 2 weeping hydraulic lines, fan belt tensioner components, repaired some bad electrical grounds, all new belts, filters, and engine mounts. My garage is not tall enough to lift the cab and I do not have the patience to work in a Bobcat engine compartment anymore.

We used to remove snow around remote oilfield plants, with the last oil boom, there were 32 local skid steers for a town with a population of 2000 people. As a result we haven't used the 863 commercially for the last 2 years as it wasn't worth the hassle of losing a motor grader operator to make $50 less per hour. So other then our driveways, it has been a handy lawn ornament. Now with around half of the competition going bankrupt, downsizing, or moving away we have picked up 2 contracts in town and if I can log another 1000 trouble free machine hours the 863 will have paid for itself around 8 times over.

My long winded point is this, unless you have a long term commitment I wouldn't bother with a full engine rebuild. As you said, it may smoke a little and consume a little oil, but it's not being asked to be doing 10 hr shifts for the foreseeable future. On a small farm setting I think if you track the hour meter I very much doubt you will average more then 10 hrs a week.

I just wanted to add, I've been enjoying your thread from the beginning and until now didn't have anything to contribute. I want to thank you for continuing to post your progress and I check in every day to follow along with your journey. I grew up on a small farm and many days, especially during harvest I miss it, my one regret when my Dad sold his acerage is I didn't have anywhere to store his 1952 Case tractor. It was the very first piece of equipment that I ever ran, almost 35 years ago now. Please feel free to post more pictures of your collection.

After reading your post, I had second thoughts about pulling the engine. I went back out after lunch and realized I had not checked the other two cylinders, the ones without a crack in the head.

They both have the same mark on the exhaust side, but it is so faint you can't feel it. The head does not appear to be cracked in those two cylinders so I really lost my concern over cracked rings. It's time to get another head and get it back together.

I got the deck cleaned pretty good, using my dull knife and shop vacuum.

I put paper towels soaked in ATF in the cylinders to help catch any debris which may fall into the cylinders. The deck cleaned up pretty good. I can see the pattern of the old head gasket but can't feel it.

It feels really good, though, to have a path forward to work toward.

Thanks for all the comments guys!

 

[1/2 Cup]

Andy, good choice IMHO

Regards

 

[oldironfarmer]

The sheetrock mudders finished up today, the sanders show up Monday and should be finished.

I'm really liking it! The overhead door installer is also showing up Monday, so the monkey is getting ready to be back on my back. I should have a few days waiting on a head for Bob. I'm ready to get back to work

In the interim I finished up a small project for my brother. He has a fancy hand cranked jack for his car carrying trailer he loaned me to go get Miss Vicky (Thanks Bobby!). The jack will not only hold the tongue, you can steer and crank the support wheels to move the trailer, like to park it or get it over the ball.

He said it works great but the height adjustment sleeve was loose on the shaft it goes on, and it also was pretty flimsy. For unrequested rent on the trailer I told him I would stiffen it up a little.

The jack is to the left, the adjustment column is the square tube with holes, and the drive mechanism is to the right. It has high speed and low speed crank positions.

Another view:

Here is the original height adjustment sleeve. I had to remove a spring loaded locating pin and a mounting bracket on the other side.

To make a precision square replacement tube, I trimmed 2"x2"x1/4" angle and milled out the radius between the legs, then welded them together.

This is a test fit of the cylinder and locating pin removed from the original. You can see I had to radius the side of the bracket toward the jack for clearance.

 

[oldironfarmer]

I did the machine work some time back but can't find any pictures

Here's the assembly in the vise (vyce) ready for tacking.

Tacked

Welded, and I also welded the long seams again, lapped a little over into the inside. I remember being a better welder. I remember being young, too

One of the issues with making a thicker box section is the pin was too short to go through the far side. So I welded up the end of the pin and ground it back round. And if it is too long, it won't retract fully. However there was enough stroke for 1/4" box material without disassembling the pin/spring cylinder.

Now it was time to file out the corner welds which were overlapped inside. Started with a die grinder and finished up with a file. The lower right in the previous picture has been ground and not filed, and the upper left has not been started. just the ends ground flat.

Finished, and it fits. It took a lot of filing.

Next is to weld the mount on the side and assemble. That's tomorrow.

 

[oldironfarmer]

Andy, good choice IMHO

Regards

Thanks, 1/2 Your opinion counts If you had only relocated last year you could have been in the thick of it.

 

[1/2 Cup]

Thanks, 1/2 Your opinion counts If you had only relocated last year you could have been in the thick of it.

Andy, thank you.

Great work one the jack BTW..

Perhaps it time for you to move out this way

Regards

 

[oldironfarmer]

Andy, thank you.

Great work one the jack BTW..

Perhaps it time for you to move out this way

Regards

OK! I'll make you a deal. Whomever has the least stuff moves. How much stuff do you have (tons)

 

[1/2 Cup]

Andy, you win hands down...

 

[Fueler]

old iron,
I saw you mentioned desiring a tig. You are a metal man. You need a tig.
You already realize you have too much stuff you don't really use and isn't earning it's keep.
Sell it off and buy a modern tig from Miller or lincoln. You won't regret it.

First you have to quit buying mo stuff to fill up space you haven't finished yet.

 

[Rex_A_Lott]

old iron,
I saw you mentioned desiring a tig. You are a metal man. You need a tig.
You already realize you have too much stuff you don't really use and isn't earning it's keep.
Sell it off and buy a modern tig from Miller or lincoln. You won't regret it.

First you have to quit buying mo stuff to fill up space you haven't finished yet.

I'd have to agree here, but its hard to tell man to get rid of some of the stuff he worked hard to get. I'd just add make sure you get an AC/DC high frequency machine so you can do aluminum.
I'm caught up now, enjoying the thread.

 

[oldironfarmer]

Andy, you win hands down...

Finally, I've won something based on the volume of junk I've accumulated

old iron,
I saw you mentioned desiring a tig. You are a metal man. You need a tig.
You already realize you have too much stuff you don't really use and isn't earning it's keep.
Sell it off and buy a modern tig from Miller or lincoln. You won't regret it.

First you have to quit buying mo stuff to fill up space you haven't finished yet.

I just can't seem to pull the trigger on buying a TIG. I generally do light welding with oxyacetylene. Using baling wire for filler. It must have high silicon content because it welds well and and smooth. Since I learned on gas moving to Heliarc was quick and easy. My Idealarc should handle a TIG rig just fine, so I'll probably start out with just the torch and no power supply. Soon.

I'm partial to Lincoln, so that's the way I'll go.

Sell is a four letter word, you know.

Mo stuff, mo stuff, mo stuff

I'd have to agree here, but its hard to tell man to get rid of some of the stuff he worked hard to get. I'd just add make sure you get an AC/DC high frequency machine so you can do aluminum.
I'm caught up now, enjoying the thread.

Glad you're enjoying the thread!

Thanks for the visits, guys!

 

[oldironfarmer]

Welded the mounting bracket on the adjustment sleeve, and installed it on the jack. I neglected to take any pictures until it was painted and installed. Makes the welds look better, though!

Well, a little better. Ok, not much better. But it is finished.

Since there was some discussion on bins, I thought I'd post a picture of my home made bolt bin. Not very pretty but has served me for many years. I won't abandon it, but I have more bolt items than will fit in the 96 spots so I'll have to split some sizes into new bins.

This is my Son in Law's local Walmart.

 

[oldironfarmer]

Had some QST today. I got started trimming out the walk through door on the shop addition. Going to trim it in red oak. It weathers well, and I have lots of it, and it holds screws very well, making for a secure door mounting.

This is one stash of oak in the mezzanine of the shop:

It had been stacked and stickered neatly, but I have sold some and restacked some to get boards out. I've found several quarter sawn boards, and I won't sell them, so the stack has gotten messier. More messy. Cluttered.

There's a stack of cedar and old yellow pine there too.

I pulled out five boards. These are rough sawn red oak from a tree my neighbor cut down on my side of the fence. He asked me about it first, concerned it would fall on the fence. It was in good shape, but he was rebuilding the fence and cutting it later would mean fixing the fence again. I think he just wanted to cut a tree.

It was 42" at the stump, and my friend's sawmill will only cut 36" so I had to split the bottom 9 ft section with wedges. Then I borrowed his sawmill and cut it up in the woods. It was stickered outside for two years, then moved to the mezzanine about six years ago. It's good and dry.

Thought I would detail turning this board from rough sawn to finished lumber.

First establish a straight edge that gives the most lumber from the board. I did this with a chalk line.

This is the view from the other end, to see that the board angles underneath at this end.

I cut along the line freehand on the table saw. This is not recommended, however I have an old Craftsman table saw and it will stall in a bind instead of hurting me. I don't want a high powered one. This saw is safe for me, and I have it set up to cut square and clean.

After establishing the straight side, the next step is to plane. My planer is in a 20 ft nominal room so unless I move it, 9 ft is about as long as I can plane. These boards happen to be about 8' 10" long. Here's the view of the board clearing the wall just as I'm starting to plane.

Here's the planer

And the board as it is just out of the planer.

A couple of inches to spare.

12" planer, 11" board.

After the board is planed both sides, needed to trim a rotted spot from one end

And cut two boards from it for the top of the door and one of the windows.

Then edge joint the straight side.

Jointing the edge allows for a good rip to width next.

The board yielded the two boards mentioned with end pieces (on the right) with rot spots and two trim pieces on the left. Typical waste from a rough sawn board.

The next board has quite a twist. Planing it will result in a planed, twisted board. So it needs to be face jointed. My planer is convertable to a 12" jointer. It only takes a minute to convert but it seems like forever when you're doing it.

Outfeed table down, infeed table still up (right)

Both tables down and locked and fence in place.

After a couple of jointing passes, you can see the planed areas.

This is quarter sawn, you can see the flecks after it is planed.

After one side is flat, the planer is converted back to planing action and the other side is planed to be parallel with the jointed side. This is after a couple of planing passes.

Then I set up and varnished the three top pieces in the paint booth. Where else?

After a little more work, the sides of the door frame and both sides of both windows are planed, trimmed, and ready to cut to length and finish.

Thanks for looking in!

 

[gordyy]

Great work as always fun to watch

 

[madoc1]

i know this is a silly question, but what is the diff between planing and jointing ? great visuals though. thx

jim

 

[jimreed2160]

WooHoo! Woodworking at last. I am an avid ww and really enjoy watching others with their projects. The barn expansion has been a real blast. Andy, your writing skills are as good as your craft skills. Great tutorial.

 

[Grumblebum]

Some beautiful red oak boards Andy.

The plaster work must be some of the neatest I've seen.

Cheers GB.

 

[Craptain]

i know this is a silly question, but what is the diff between planing and jointing ? great visuals though. thx

jim

Jointing is the process of flattening the surface and then getting a flat edge at rt angle to the original face. Planing will only give a truly flat and square surface if the jointing has been done properly first.
If you but a board through the planer it will take a smooth cut but may not actually end up flat.

Sent from my LG-D801 using Tapatalk

 

[neilc]

i know this is a silly question, but what is the diff between planing and jointing ? great visuals though. thx

jim

Jointing is used to remove stock from either an edge or a face of a board. The board is moved across the rotating cutter with the grain to prevent tear out. You typically joint the first edge and the first side before going on to the planer. That gives you a reference right angle with two adjacent sides - an edge and a face. Once you have that reference, you can rip the board with a saw to create a consistent width. And you can go to a planer to create a consistent thickness.

Jointing can also be used to create tapers, for example on table legs. It's a more advanced technique but useful for a smooth and straight taper. You can also do it with a hand plane or a tablesaw, but the jointer is my personal preference for doing so.

As an example of a jointer in use, you may have a rough sawn board that has twists or bows, or edges that still show tree bark. A jointer creates one smooth and straight edge. When you complete jointing, you typically will not have a consistent thickness of the board. That's where the planer comes in. And if you are working on a project like a table top, you want consistent thickness across the boards that you glue up. So you run them all through a planer to create that consistent thickness.

Planing may use a combo machine or separate machines depending on the design. But a planer is where you move to achieve a consistent thickness to a board after you have a jointed face. You move a board through a planer with the jointed side down and running under the rotating cutter to create a parallel side to the bottom jointed face. The planer typically has an auto-feed to pull the board through and prevent it from jamming due to potential inconsistencies in width. Multiple passes may be needed to remove and create a parallel side along the entire length and width of the board.

Professionals or serious hobby users typically will have both machines, either in separate or combo machines. But they are really useful and many would say necessary to create dimensionally consistent and straight boards for making furniture, cabinets or finish carpentry.

Hope that helps.

 

[oldironfarmer]

Great work as always fun to watch

Thanks for stopping by! And I appreciate the kind comments

i know this is a silly question, but what is the diff between planing and jointing ? great visuals though. thx

jim

I used to always say there are no silly questions, and said that in a meeting one day. My boss then asked a question and I had to say "I stand corrected". There are just some things your boss should know, or at least know enough to keep his mouth shut in public. Around here, if you don't know you won't learn as much if you don't ask. And in many cases the poster (me) is using the wrong terminology and a question may flush it out.

I think someone else answered your question, I may comment on his comment

WooHoo! Woodworking at last. I am an avid ww and really enjoy watching others with their projects. The barn expansion has been a real blast. Andy, your writing skills are as good as your craft skills. Great tutorial.

Wow! Thanks for the great comments! I get to rambling on, and the later the more I ramble. Then I wonder if I've made a fool of myself or just exposed it. Thanks for the visit, hmmm... "your writing skills are as good as your craft skills That could be taken two ways, his writing is just as good as his pitiful craft skills Oh well, it's me and I don't apologize for being me! (I know you meant a compliment, thanks!)

Some beautiful red oak boards Andy.

The plaster work must be some of the neatest I've seen.

Cheers GB.

Thanks for stopping in. I love red oak, and like to work with it. These boards are from near the stump and have lots of defects and streaks, but nothing I can't work with. Since I cut them I have a feel for what they are. I know they were sawn straight, but some really warped during drying. Look at this guy:

Hmmm..... that was clearer in real life The end got cut off, it looked like it was in a crotch, lots of wild grain.

Me too, I'm real happy with the sheetrock work.

 

[oldironfarmer]

Jointing is the process of flattening the surface and then getting a flat edge at rt angle to the original face. Planing will only give a truly flat and square surface if the jointing has been done properly first.
If you but a board through the planer it will take a smooth cut but may not actually end up flat.

Sent from my LG-D801 using Tapatalk

Thanks for the accurate comments!

Jointing is used to remove stock from either an edge or a face of a board. The board is moved across the rotating cutter with the grain to prevent tear out. You typically joint the first edge and the first side before going on to the planer. That gives you a reference right angle with two adjacent sides - an edge and a face. Once you have that reference, you can rip the board with a saw to create a consistent width. And you can go to a planer to create a consistent thickness.

Jointing can also be used to create tapers, for example on table legs. It's a more advanced technique but useful for a smooth and straight taper. You can also do it with a hand plane or a tablesaw, but the jointer is my personal preference for doing so.

As an example of a jointer in use, you may have a rough sawn board that has twists or bows, or edges that still show tree bark. A jointer creates one smooth and straight edge. When you complete jointing, you typically will not have a consistent thickness of the board. That's where the planer comes in. And if you are working on a project like a table top, you want consistent thickness across the boards that you glue up. So you run them all through a planer to create that consistent thickness.

Planing may use a combo machine or separate machines depending on the design. But a planer is where you move to achieve a consistent thickness to a board after you have a jointed face. You move a board through a planer with the jointed side down and running under the rotating cutter to create a parallel side to the bottom jointed face. The planer typically has an auto-feed to pull the board through and prevent it from jamming due to potential inconsistencies in width. Multiple passes may be needed to remove and create a parallel side along the entire length and width of the board.

Professionals or serious hobby users typically will have both machines, either in separate or combo machines. But they are really useful and many would say necessary to create dimensionally consistent and straight boards for making furniture, cabinets or finish carpentry.

Hope that helps.

Very nice description, thanks for the comments! What can I add? I'll think of something

The auto feed of the thickness planer includes pressure rollers to hold the board firmly down to the table. If the board is not held down to the table it could bounce and chatter and make a very rough cut. That then presents a problem when thickness planing a board that is not flat against the table. A thin cupped board will be pressed flat, or nearly flat, and the cutters will mill it while it is flat. Then on exiting the planer it will resume it's cupped shape. If it is wide and very thin that could be ok, you can fasten it down and keep it flat on the finished installation. But generally it is unacceptable. Twists are the same way. Plane a twisted board and you'll have a smooth twisted board.

All that being said, a thick board which is pretty straight can be jointed in the planer if you take light cuts and work carefully. I only jointed two of the five rough boards I milled yesterday. The others went straight into the planer just like a novice would do. With good results

I have two six inch jointers and they are used for edge jointing regularly. In making a table top, it is usually best to rip board to four to six inches, flatten them, then glue them back together, with alternating grain, so I got along with narrow jointers for many years. I bought a 15" planer years ago and it was great. Unfortunately I lost it in my shop fire. I bought the convertible planer/jointer because of all the green lumber I was drying: red oak, walnut, poplar, bois d'arc, etc.

I looked for a large traditional jointer and just could not find one. The Grizzly one I bought has segmented carbide cutters which do pretty well in wild grain. But I would rather have a 16" jointer and 20" planer. Really don't have the room and can't justify the cost. I don't like dual purpose machines but this one works pretty well. It is usually in the planer mode and I am very pleased with it.

As a side note, the longest hand planes were called jointers and were used to create straight edges just like a power jointer.

Here's a table I made last year and used my grandfather's jointer to flatten glue up offsets (errors).

The picture was the approval step for my wife, before finishing.

 

[1/2 Cup]

Andy, wow that's some fantastic timber you have there.

PS you are a man of many talents and thank you for sharing it with us..

Regards

 

[oldironfarmer]

Andy, wow that's some fantastic timber you have there.

PS you are a man of mini talents and thank you for sharing it with us..

Regards

Thank you so very much!

P.S. I corrected your typo

P.P.S. We use the word timber to describe a heavy beam like 4"x6" and larger, and also to describe large trees. I think I've got some fantastic timber so I'll try to go take a few shots of some of my larger trees.

P.P.P.S. I know you were referring to the lumber.

P.P.P.P.S. I just had to P one more time

P.P.P.P.P.S. Part of being old is the need to P. By the way, I'm thinking about trying out for the Harlem Globetrotters (comedy basketball team), at this age I'm getting pretty good at dribbling, I think I might make the team.

P.P.P.P.P.P.S. We were having peas and carrots for dinner (side dish) when my grandson announced he was going to "eat every carrot and pea on my plate". Made me laugh so hard I had to go.

 

[Craptain]

Andy, it is truly a delight to see comments from someone who actually understands, or at least talks as if they understand the wood. Not just the tech school answers. I tried to keep it simple but you and neilc so well went further. I personally manage with a 6 1/8" jointer and a 13"planer. But as you point out the majority of glue ups use narrower boards that fit my jointer.

A question though. Why varnish before the job is (almost) finished?

 

[oldironfarmer]

Andy, it is truly a delight to see comments from someone who actually understands, or at least talks as if they understand the wood. Not just the tech school answers. I tried to keep it simple but you and neilc so well went further. I personally manage with a 6 1/8" jointer and a 13"planer. But as you point out the majority of glue ups use narrower boards that fit my jointer.

A question though. Why varnish before the job is (almost) finished?

I try to talk like I understand

Understanding wood movement in cabinetry and furniture is something a surprising number of people don't grasp.

The walk through door frame is exposed on edge to the elements. So I want the entire door frame to have a sealer on the hidden surfaces as well, so I decided to varnish one coat before I installed it. Window top boxing was ready and I had a wet brush so why not? They could get some sweating on the joint next to the window, but it was really not necessary.

 

[oldironfarmer]

Sheetrockers were supposed to finish up tomorrow, but they showed up today, complete surprise. Said one of them had a dental appointment tomorrow, and they know the door installer is coming tomorrow and they wanted to finish up before they had metal in the way.

I was glad to see them. They do good work, aren't overpriced, and showed they cared about schedule as well as quality. They sanded it down today, looks great! (I'm prejudiced, maybe) although the picture probably looks like the last one.

I got busy and swept up their dust. Used a home made broom, by the way. And then got the top door frame up and top piece on both window boxing.

There's the door piece installed, and you can see the insulation inside the header of the window. My impetus to get these installed is to prevent vibration during overhead door installation from dislodging insulation in the open bottom headers.

When I decided I needed to varnish the boards I looked in my cabinet for varnish.

Polyurethane would have been nice, but the one can I had was a dark stain and I've decided to put clear on the oak. the can of Red Devil would do. If it wasn't jelled. I don't remember when I bought it. Looks like a date code

Hmmm.... looks like it is only 25 years and one month since manufacture date. So, realistically, it's only really about 20 years after it's best used by date (not put on cans in 1991, or is that 1891?). But it smelled OK, and it was liquid, and the can looked good inside. Stirred it up and brushed it on. Then it seems like I remember old varnish might not harden It was supposed to dry in six hours. After ten hours it was still sticky. Next morning it was lightly sticky. When I installed it today, it was still a little sticky

Will I use the rest of the can?

 

[Jo Diesel]

I think you should leave the rough edge on the outside when trimming out the windows. Give it a rustic feel. What my dad did in his man cave.
Pretty awesome to trim your shop in RED OAK

 

[dlcwent]

Still here. Nothing to add. You amaze me Lazy Andy. If I think about it, I'll bet I can find something that you don't know or do. But at this point, I'm starting to doubt it.

 

[BUGTHUG]

I'll give you some free advice on the sheetrock. Maybe "ole wise one" you know already? But if you take a bucket of water, get a big fat sponge and you can wipe the joints and wall. Since you had the sanding done already, it should go fast. If you did the mud yourself, then the sponge works good so you have less sanding.
Are you spraying the walls or roller? Let the fun begin!

 

[madoc1]

thx. everyone for the jointer tutorial. now i think i understand it a tad better. at least the principal.

jim

 

[oldironfarmer]

I think you should leave the rough edge on the outside when trimming out the windows. Give it a rustic feel. What my dad did in his man cave.
Pretty awesome to trim your shop in RED OAK

My front porch is rough sawn eastern red cedar. I sawed it thin for my daughter then she wanted something else so I have a passle of /12" thick cedar boards. But I really don't like rough sawn inside. We're all different

It's hard to cut the red oak stash up. But, it is time to start using it.

Thanks for stopping by.

Still here. Nothing to add. You amaze me Lazy Andy. If I think about it, I'll bet I can find something that you don't know or do. But at this point, I'm starting to doubt it.

One thing I just can't learn to do: interpersonal relationships. And I'm just not too good at finishing sheetrock

Glad to have you stop in.

I'll give you some free advice on the sheetrock. Maybe "ole wise one" you know already? But if you take a bucket of water, get a big fat sponge and you can wipe the joints and wall. Since you had the sanding done already, it should go fast. If you did the mud yourself, then the sponge works good so you have less sanding.
Are you spraying the walls or roller? Let the fun begin!

I did learn several years ago to use a sponge to ease sanding, and on small jobs you can eliminate sanding. Especially nice when you are making a repair in the house.

But, I haven't thought about wiping the sanding dust off with a sponge. Thanks!

Think I'm going to spray, most, anyway. Going to prime then finish coat.

Thanks for the advice. Let's see, are you "ole wise one" or was that me? I don't feel too wise. But my cracks are smart, I have many wise cracks.

thx. everyone for the jointer tutorial. now i think i understand it a tad better. at least the principal.

jim

I'm glad you asked. I'm also glad others answered so I didn't look so stupid.

Hope you'll visit again!

 

[oldironfarmer]

Short day today. Had to take my loving wife to investigate getting implants.

I made some door stop for the exterior door, and was starting on the interior doors when I realized I'd be better off buying prehung doors. I really don't want to spend the time to make custom doors.

Ripping a piece of scrap you can see how well the wood is air dried, the kerf is neither opening nor closing.

Ripping the second piece I made some nice paint stir material.

Then the door stop needed rounded edges to save your knuckles. Several options as to how to round a corner. I could spend ten minutes finding and getting a small roundover bit into the router, adjust it, and then clamp down a 3/8" piece of spaghetti board. But Lazy Andy grabbed a smoothing plane and eyeballed it without clamping the board.

I had to clean the bench off enough to get the board a place to lay. Then a little sanding and the edge is nice and round. (You'll have to believe me, no photograph)

That actually wasn't very hard. the edge is usually pretty clean because long boards on the radial arm saw lay on the front couple of inches of the bench. Bench was built to match the radial arm saw table height.

Garage doors showed up today, and after he asked nicely I let him install the doors I bought too. Finish tomorrow. He ordered a 12 ft high door for the big one even though he himself measured 11 ft so he has to bring back four smaller panels tomorrow.

Man! Am I pleased!