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Above 1200 Sq/FT Restored 1930's Auto Shop

Wokspaces above 1200 squarefeet.

Sweet Old Bill

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La Belle Dame sans Merci!

You are truly blessed to share her life with her, and she with you.

When I fail to pass the test, will that mean I get to read it all over again. Not such a bad fate.

Thanks again for sharing your journey.
 
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markviii

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Yep, Boosted1, that looks to be pre-Road America 2010 when the race cars were with us for the entire summer racing season (end of May through Labor Day weekend when we all left for Lime Rock, CT. Very memorable time for us. The barn had been completed during the Fall 2009 (just before we started this thread).

A note to everyone (especially Sweet Old Bill): Don't get stressed out and go trying to re-read parts of the thread thinking this will prepare you for the quest. Believe me, if you've been with us for the journey, it's all good. And Fun! Did I mention Fun?

Chris
 

Thirdyfivepickup

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I cheated a little around page 350 and started skipping pages to get to the current events... like Christmas... I wanted to see the reveal, the "finished product."

I'm guessing you will probably never be finished... there will always be something to change or something new to add.

Frankly I hope that's the case because I cant get enough of your updates.
 
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BB767

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Geo Thermo Floor Heat - More Test Material!!!!

We passed something of a milestone yesterday.



Part of the radiant floor system was flushed and...



...filled for the first time with about 130 gallons of distilled water. Curtis is filling the flush cart with water, the empty bottles are in all the boxes on the right.



The flush cart connects to the radiant floor tubing manifold and return water from those lines goes into the flush cart where it is filtered and air is purged from the lines. Then the water is returned to the WaterFurnace heat pump. This is only done when initially filling the system.



After a couple of hours of operation the heat pump was providing 103º F (39º C) water to the radiant floor water heater. (eventually it was proving 112ºF water later that afternoon) Shown is the output water temp from the heat pump.



As the water leaves the heat pump it is pumped to a water heater tank. Above the water heater tank are 2 thermostats measuring output and input floor water temps.



This is the temp of water in the water heater after a couple hours of system operation.

If the heat pump can't elevate the floor water temp high enough, the water heater will provide additional heat to the water. My radiate floor water heaters will use natural gas to supplement heat if necessary. I don't think they'll ever be needed. The gas portion of my heaters is still not operational so the heat pump is the only heat source as of now. We'll have the entire system operational this coming week.



The water temperature leaving the water heater tank as shown is 99º F. The water then was circulated through the floor loops in the garage floor, slowly heating the concrete floor up.



The return water temp out of the garage was 67º F. The 32º temp differential between input and output was absorbed by the floor concrete mass where it will slowly dissipate into the garage, heating it.

When we first started heating the garage yesterday, the air temp in there was 53º. Less than 18 hours later it was 66º in the garage and the input and return water line temps were both 72º meaning the concrete mass was completely heated and not needing any additional heat.

So far the radiant floor heat has been an unqualified success. As we get more of the system operational we'll see how well it will work, heating the main house. Stand by for that.

Warm and toasty Thomas
 

AZpilot

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OMG! That is a great system. Wish I had that in my garage when I was in Missouri. In Arizona I need radiant cooling.
 
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BB767

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OMG! That is a great system. Wish I had that in my garage when I was in Missouri. In Arizona I need radiant cooling.

It's an all round pretty slick operation, just a little costly upfront. My heating and cooling energy costs should be very reasonable for a long time to come. Well.... that's the theory anyway, we'll see.



This system will also be providing radiant cooling in the summer. :)

Thomas
 
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BB767

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Why is in-floor heating described as 'radiant' in the US? Surely the heat transfer to the air is by convection?

Pete

Terrific question Pete and thank you so very much for asking. A favorite subject of mine! :) Now we can get into a discussion involving physics. Chris is going to go wild with that on "The Test"!!!! :evil::willy_nil:willy_nil

Radiant vrs Convection Heat

A kilowatt of radiant heat and a kilowatt of convection heat do not have the same heat transfer properties. While both take a kilowatt of energy to produce, their heat transfer properties are markedly different, implying dramatic differences in the amount of heat capacity you need to install and the length of time you need to run them. So as far as heating your home, office or work space goes, there is a considerable energy difference at stake.

Convection:

Convection is the transfer of heat by movement of liquids or gases. Its properties are:

* Convection currents naturally rise as the hot medium (air in this case) expands and decreases in density and as the cool air increases in density and sinks. Convection in a central heating context therefore implies warm air rising to the ceiling and then circulating gradually to lower levels in the room, being at its coldest near the floor.

*This air movement cannot be controlled and heat transfer always works from hot to cold which you cannot control in the air. If a door to a cold corridor is opened, drafts exist, etc, the warm air will naturally flow there.

*You cannot feel a convection current to the side of a convecting surface (any heat you feel would be radiant) only above it.

*Air absorbs heat poorly and transfers it back out to other objects poorly.

*Air is not “zone-able” and rapidly cools when the thermostat switches off (i.e. the heater is only effective when on).

Radiant Heat:

Radiant heat has considerable advantages over convected heat for comfort heating because:

*Radiant heat has a higher “flux” (watts output per meter per degree centigrade of the heater) than convection heating. You require less radiant heat for less time to do the job of more convected heat for more time.

* A Radiant heater directly heats objects in an environment, not the air in between. So you are heating surface area of objects in an environment which warm up and turn the environment into a 360° radiator. This effect is felt less with heated air which transfers heat into objects poorly.

* Objects retain heat better than air, so residual energy maintains temperature in the environment for longer e.g. if a door is opened to a colder room, or when the thermostat turns off the heat source.

*You can manage the heater by a thermostat set to a lower air temperature because it is the environment that heats up first, not the air.


Different Effects of the Same Kilowatt
:

You'd think that is “A kilowatt of heat is a kilowatt of heat: you can’t get more out of one kilowatt from one heater than you can out of another”, wouldn't you?

A kilowatt of heat – while indeed being a kilowatt of energy from whatever source it emanates – does not mean the same physical heating effect occurs regardless of the type of heat transfer method. Thinking about a 2kW oven versus an 800W microwave should make this instantly apparent. It’s all a question of what you’re wanting that kilowatt to achieve and employing the correct type of heat for the correct function.


What Does It All Mean?

You can get very different physical properties out of heaters each rated 1kW. But some heaters are evidently optimal in certain situations where others are not. And therefore use of that kilowatt really depends what you want it for. Miss-application results in an inefficiency in the use of that energy. As much as heaters that are too hot for a particular application represent wasted energy, heaters that are too cool also represent wasted energy because you need more of them. What you really want is the optimum heater for the correct application. In terms of comfort heating a room, when comparing one kilowatt of Far Infrared** against one kilowatt of Convection, you can experience up to say, a 60% difference in the heated area and running times using 1 kilowatt of radiant heat versus 1 kilowatt of convection.

**Far infrared (FIR) is a region in the infrared spectrum of electromagnetic radiation. Far infrared is often defined as any radiation with a wavelength of 15 micrometers (µm) to 1 mm (corresponding to a range of about 20 THz to 300 GHz), which places far infrared radiation within the CIE IR-B and IR-C bands.

Bottom Line:

Radiant heat, heats objects not air and it just feels good. It's as simple as that.

Thanks again Pete, I hope that was helpful.

Thomas

BTW...



... Count Rumford figured some of this out 3 centuries ago and employed it with his Rumford fireplace design. That's one of the reasons I used it in my fireplace. It relies more on radiant heat not convective heat.
 

Spareparts

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You almost out ran my country boy brain on that one, seriously, you explained that so the average person can understand. I know flying is your love but you would make a hell of a good teacher, and we would have a lot more intelligent people in the world because of you. Did I suckup enough to get a ride in GUS if we make it up your way. LOL
 

stillp

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To Thomas:
Mmm. I'm OK with the difference between the human perception of radiant heat as being more effective that convected heat, what I'm struggling with is to see a concrete floor (particularly if covered by carpeting or wood flooring) as a source of radiant energy, since concrete has fairly low emissivity. I have no problem with the Rumford fireplace since the fire itself is clearly a radiant source and the design will reflect that radiant energy into the room.

To everyone else:
I'm deeply, deeply sorry for introducing physics into Miss Chris' forthcoming test paper.

Pete
 

bulletpruf

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To Thomas:
Mmm. I'm OK with the difference between the human perception of radiant heat as being more effective that convected heat, what I'm struggling with is to see a concrete floor (particularly if covered by carpeting or wood flooring) as a source of radiant energy, since concrete has fairly low emissivity. I have no problem with the Rumford fireplace since the fire itself is clearly a radiant source and the design will reflect that radiant energy into the room.

To everyone else:
I'm deeply, deeply sorry for introducing physics into Miss Chris' forthcoming test paper.

Pete

Amazon reports that thousands of copies of "Physics for Dummies" have been purchased in the past few hours...majority of purchasers are men in the 20's - 70's, most with a tool addiction...

Related story, man in Midlands, UK was tarred and feathered this evening. Apparently retribution for monumental repercussions of having asked the wrong question on an internet forum...
 
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BB767

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To Thomas:
Mmm. I'm OK with the difference between the human perception of radiant heat as being more effective that convected heat, what I'm struggling with is to see a concrete floor (particularly if covered by carpeting or wood flooring) as a source of radiant energy, since concrete has fairly low emissivity........

To everyone else:
I'm deeply, deeply sorry for introducing physics into Miss Chris' forthcoming test paper.

Pete

OK Pete, I think(?) I understand your concerns. Is it seeing concrete's emissivity as a deterrent to a radiant heat source? Without getting too technical, take a look at the following...

*The thermal energy radiated by a blackbody radiator per second per unit area is proportional to the fourth power of the absolute temperature and is given by



For hot objects other than ideal radiators, the law is expressed in the form:



where e is the emissivity of the object (e = 1 for ideal radiator). If the hot object is radiating energy to its cooler surroundings at temperature Tc, the net radiation loss rate takes the form



The Stefan-Boltzmann relationship is also related to the energy density in the radiation in a given volume of space.

Thermal radiation is energy transfer by the emission of electromagnetic waves which carry energy away from the emitting object. For ordinary temperatures (less than red hot"), the radiation is in the infrared region of the electromagnetic spectrum. The relationship governing the net radiation from hot objects is called the Stefan-Boltzmann law:





While the typical situation envisioned here is the radiation from a hot object to its cooler surroundings, the Stefan-Boltzmann law is not limited to that case. If the surroundings are at a higher temperature (TC > T) then you will obtain a negative answer, implying net radiative transfer to the object.

Or let us look at concrete emissivity itself.

Surface Emissivity – why this matters
:

For heat to be stored or released from an exposed soffit it must of course pass between the surface and occupied space below, and although heat moves relatively quickly through concrete, it is generally more limited at its surface, which acts to some extent as a thermal bottle neck.

Where possible, encouraging turbulent air flow across the soffit (as previously mentioned) will improve convective heat transfer performance, however the radiant heat transfer rate is determined by another factor called surface emissivity. This basically relates to how shinny or matt a surface is, measured by a factor ranging between 0 and 1. Emissivity matters because matt surfaces, such as that of concrete, have a high emissivity level of between 0.85-0.95, making them very good at absorbing and emitting radiant heat. In contrast to this, relatively shinny surfaces such as galvanized steel have a much lower emissivity of around 0.22-0.28 that limits radiant heat flow. Since heat transfer to and from the soffit is typically about 2/3 radiant and 1/3 convective, a low surface emissivity has a significant impact on overall performance.

In practical terms, this very much limits the thermal mass performance of exposed composite floors (steel decking with thin concrete topping), which may be further reduced if permeable ceiling tiles are used to visually screen the metallic soffit. An exposed steel composite floor has a modest cooling output of about 10-14 W/m2, falling to around 4-9 W/m2 when a permeable/open ceiling is added. This contrasts with a value of around 15-25 W/m2 for a simple exposed concrete soffit. This can increase to around 60 W/m2 when the cooling potential of the slab is fully optimized.

In other words from all the above I think we can imply that, while concrete is not an ideal radiator, it works well for this application.

Like I said Pete, I don't want to get too technical but did that clarify it a bit? :dunno:

Thomas

PS, are you feeling the love of all our fellow Garage Journal members like I am?? :D If you're not having fun.......what's the point. Thanks Pete for being part of our gang here! :thumbup:
 
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BB767

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You almost out ran my country boy brain on that one, seriously, you explained that so the average person can understand. I know flying is your love but you would make a hell of a good teacher, and we would have a lot more intelligent people in the world because of you. Did I suckup enough to get a ride in GUS if we make it up your way. LOL

You got some serious suckup points with that post Spareparts!

GUS awaits your impending arrival. :thumbup:

Suitably impressed Thomas

BTW, besides being a flight and simulator instructor for many, many years, I taught at Parkland College for several years and I loved it. I almost didn't leave teaching but the siren call of flying big jets for the airlines was too great to resist. :)
 
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oldironfarmer

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Very interesting discussion on radiant heating. With all due respect to all involved, since radiant energy transfer is based on the differences of the fourth power of the temperatures of the radiator and radiatee, when those temperatures are close, the difference of the fourth powers of the absolute temperatures are not that great. A wood stove at 400F will radiate nicely, as will an incandescent light bulb at 2,500C. So the predominate heat transfer mechanism for a hot water floor heating system is convection. Quote from US DOE article promoting radiant floor heating:

"Despite its name, radiant floor heating depends heavily on convection, the natural circulation of heat within a room as air warmed by the floor rises."

True radiant heating is not as comfortable as most people like. The air is not warmed significantly by the radiant energy. Those who have true radiant heating in ceilings will confirm that sitting may be comfortable, unless your legs are under a table, and they will get cold. Lying on a couch you will get very warm with no covering. I didn't like the ceiling radiant heating system we had for that reason.

If the floor is at 75F and the rest of the room is at 70F Stefan-Boltzmann constant with an ideal radiator (e=1) results in a radiant energy transfer of about 5 BTU/sq ft per hr. So a 15 ft by 20 ft room would get a maximum of 1,550 BTU per hour from radiation. To put that in perspective, a 1,500 watt portable heater puts out about 5,100 BTU/hr. If the radiator is a polished floor, or carpet, you would expect maybe 300 BTU per hour into the room from radiation. The convection component is much greater and "radiant" floor systems work great in rooms with 8 ft ceilings.

My dad was a WaterFurnace dealer and installer for many years (long before they became popular), and they are excellent systems. Thomas and Chris will have reliable efficient heat for many years. My Dad never got around to installing backup heat in the system he installed for me in 2005, and it continues to perform flawlessly.

I'm continually impressed by the quality of construction in the marvelous house in the Center of the Universe.:bowdown:
 

donnie

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Being from the Midwest hot water heat is the best. I know I really simplified your system [emoji53] does not burn all of the moisture out of the house. I wonder what it will be like in the summer. Will the system keep the house cool but not remove the humidity I do not see an AC if you have one running very much with the water cooling the house. Do you have a dehumidifier?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Bob Heine

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Thomas, my best example of radiant heat involves my steel garage doors. When the sun hit them in the afternoon they warmed up to about 130*F, measured with a cheap Harbor Freight infrared thermometer gun. The outside air temperature was 90*F. Standing near the door inside the garage, you can feel the radiant heat coming off the door. There is no red glow or flame involved -- it is simply radiating heat energy. Two inches of Styrofoam has dramatically reduced the radiated heat.

My concrete driveway also radiates heat when the sun warms it on those same afternoons. The surface temperature also reaches 130-140*F (measured with the IR gun and verified by my bare feet) and retains much of that heat late into the evening, although the entire slab is losing heat to the permanently damp ground at the same time.
 

realvc

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I still can't figure out the wind shield factor the weather man talks about when it gets cold. It looks to me like the wind shield temp. would depend on how fast the car or truck is moving but they never say anything about that.

Looking forward to the test if its multiple choice I have a real good shot at passing it.

Thanks one more time for a great thread.

Also thanks for the "Beltsville Shell" book. It is so cool to think of the miles that one little book has on it.
 
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stillp

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Thomas, I had a feeling your career had included some teaching - something about the measured pace and considered level of detail in your explanations. My physics teacher, umpty-something years ago, had a techniques that consisted mostly of dictating the contents of textbooks at breakneck speed, and occasionally introducing a practical demonstration, which few of his students could understand since the dictation was too rapid to allow comprehension. About all I learned from him was to be a little more leisurely when I taught radio & TV servicing.

Yes, my problem was mostly in seeing a concrete floor as primarily a radiator. As oldironfarmer suggests, the actual heat transfer must be a combination of radiation and convection, and it would be interesting if someone could measure just how much of the heat lost from the floor is by radiation and how much from convection. I'd not really thought about it before I discovered GJ, since over here we just refer to UFH (under-floor heating) or more rarely IFH (in-floor heating). However in a central heating system we commonly refer to the things that transfer heat from the circulating heated water to the air of the rooms as radiators, although they almost always have a glossy white finish that must have quite a low emissivity.
My experiences with heat transfer were mostly to do with getting heat out of electronics, or, in the case of some engine-compartment automotive electronics, keeping the heat out!

"Feeling the love"? Yes, although I don't like the sound of that tar-and-feathering!

Pete
 

realvc

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I'm not sure if this was supposed to be a funny or if a facepalm is appropriate.

If the latter, the term is wind chill factor.


I thought it was funny, but then again I spend a lot of time by myself and enjoy the company.

Sorry, Thomas and Chris for my attempt at humor on your thread.
 

avmaine

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Oddly, my iphone takes great photos from the pointy end at night. Although thats a no no technically. DSLRs are okay though. long story that you probably remember. My Pentax DSLR does great night shots. I think it has a lot do to with vibration. my camera has an anti vibration setting i'm not a great photo though




I'd like to do just that. I've never shot a night time exposure with any success but my current camera does have a setting for it. I presume I'll need a tripod to steady the camera for the slow shutter speed.



Before I retired from Continental, I tried taking a B767 cockpit picture at night in flight and no matter how hard I tried to steady myself it still blurred. I suspect using a tripod would have made it work.



With the cockpit dome light on, the additional light stopped the blurring but the glass instruments didn't photograph. Clearly I'm no professional photographer. Good thing I didn't quit my day (night) job! :eek:

Here we're flying at 37,000' on a north heading so we're headed back to Newark (EWR) from Sáo Paulo (GRU) somewhere over the south Atlantic. For those with sharp eyes, the standby altimeter reads 37,100' (red arrow) while the left side Primary Flight Display - PFD (yellow arrow) is showing 37,000' exactly. Without getting overly technical, the autopilot uses the PFD for it's flight information so the aircraft is being flown at the correct altitude. The standby altimeter is only used if the 2 PFD's fail.

I'll see what my night time photography skills will produce showing the house outside lighting. This will be interesting.

New career bound Thomas
 
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BB767

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First Fire !!

Well I'm glad we're all on the same page now regarding heating terminology. And speaking of heating...



...my buddy Steve came over to help break in and celebrate the first fire in the new fireplace. You might remember Steve is the one who helped engineer and build not only this fireplace, but the one in our first house 36 years ago.

The fireplace isn't finished as yet. I've still got to seal the stone, set the mantel and install the finished hearth. I'm still searching for the proper type of stone sealer, I can't set the mantle until the stone is sealed and we can't do the hearth until the finished hardwood floor is installed buttttttt...



...it's done enough so I can burn small fires to slowly break in the firebox. The idea is to build a series of small fires to heat the masonry slowly, a little bit at a time and let all the various pieces/parts settle in without thermo shocking them with one huge roaring fire.

To that end I borrow a pair of andirons...



...uncovered the external combustion air ducts, opened the damper, lit a match and...



...I made a fire, right there in our great room! The chimney worked exceptionally well, easily drawing smoke up and out of the room, even after everything was well warmed up and the damper set nearly closed. Remember, the damper only needs to be open enough to draw smoke out and no more. That greatly aids in the fireplace efficiency.



To keep track of firebox temperatures I used my infrared thermometer which is equipped with a laser pointer so you know where the reading is being measured from. With the fire burning nicely for 20 minutes or so, here were some of the readings. This is the firebrick in the back of the box, 5 rows up from the bottom. It's showing 166ºF (74ºC)...



...same place, 4 rows up, 203º F, (95º C)...



...3 rows from the bottom and it's 310º F, (154º C)...



...2 rows from the bottom and back of the firebox, very nearly level with the heart of the fire, we're at 656º F, (347º C). Pointing the thermometer right at the fire itself the reading was off scale high at over 1000º F (538º C).



Then we checked the temperature of the lintel stone and the reading was 67º F (19º C). You can see where the laser pointer is showing on the lintel stone.



We didn't add any extra wood so the fire burned for less than an hour and we let it die down. Notice in this picture we placed boards around the air ducts to help direct the flow of air coming in. The finished duct covers will have louvers to direct the air flow. With the ashes cool, I opened the ash dump door and shoveled the ashes into the ash pit, closed the damper and sealed the air ducts, ready for the next fire. I'll let that fire burn for a couple of hours but will still keep it small. Heat penetrates through the firebrick at the rate of about 1 inch an hour, so a 2-3 hour fire will eventually warm the firebrick all the way through. I'll keep the first few fires small but will run them increasingly longer each time.

So there you have it, a nice, toasty warm fire in the room, contained with perfect safety and we're one step closer to finishing the project. Check back for more. Thanks everyone. :)

Happy Camper Thomas
 
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Lyndon

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Thomas and Chris

I've been visiting regularly to watch the goings on over here, and always leave agog . . . :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Anyway, the reason for the post is to say have a fantastic Christmas, and a New House kind of New Year.

Lyndon
A day closer to a visit from the jolly fat man in red. ;) :hellobye: :hellobye:
 
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Grizz1963

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Aaaahhhhh Thomas !!!!!'


I am on the train to London for the last day work this year and just laughed out loudly in joy at your landmark.

This fire is a big landmark in the build for me.

Well done to you and Chris and your extended team.

Everyone should share in the glory for sure.

Fire is one of the elements that always makes me smile.

Must be the caveman in me.
 
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