About six months ago I installed a set of GB Racing engine covers on my motorcycle in order to help protect it in the event of a crash. These covers bolt right over the stock clutch and stator covers. I followed the included instructions which basically consisted of removing a few of the stock bolts, placing the new cover over the stock one, and installing it with the included bolts that came with the kit, torque to spec, and that's about it. Pretty basic. Nowhere on the instructions did it mention using anti seize. I also watched a couple guys installing them online, and the majority of them didn't use anti seize either. Recently I found out the bolts that were supplied with this kit are A2 stainless steel. Since I threaded these into an aluminum engine, should I have used anti seize? If so, after being installed on the bike for six months, do you think it's too late to remove them, apply anti seize and reinstall them. If so, which type of anti seize would work best with stainless steel and aluminum, as there are several types to choose from. Or should I just leave them alone? I really appreciate any advice you guys can give me.
Should I have used anti seize?
- Thread starter jgelack
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Know Wosad
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A2 isnt stainless. It's a tool steel. My favorite for making blades actually.
You wont have too many issues with dissimilar metals on a bike.Jet ski is another rodeo tho !
Give them a twist and tighten them back and maybe just a shot of penetrating oil.
You wont have too many issues with dissimilar metals on a bike.Jet ski is another rodeo tho !
Give them a twist and tighten them back and maybe just a shot of penetrating oil.
sberry
Banned
I rarely use that stuff. I spray with common penetrating spray, just something to keep them from dry seize during install and it displaces any moisture that comes along. Even use it for submerged work, rust the exposed threads right away and come apart no problem. As it is would probably leave it alone.
gdocktor3
Well-known member
I wouldn't worry much about it, but if you're willing and able, it surely wouldn't hurt.
rlitman
Well-known member
A2 is also a designation for 304 stainless.
I just checked the packaging, which I saved. In the contents is says, A2 stainless steel cap head bolts. When I installed them I read the directions, but failed to see this in the contents listed. If I decided to remove them, do you guys think I'll have any problems after they've been installed for 6 months?
rlitman
Well-known member
The low force "blue" lock tite is pretty good at preventing corrosion, which makes it a reasonable anti-seize as well. Not a bad idea if it isn't exposed to too much heat.
Highly doubt it. If they are 304 Stainless and the bike is stored indoors, it would be years before you would have serious galvanic issues.
Yeah, the bike is always stored indoors and has never seen rain, snow or salt.
bsaint
Well-known member
He must not live in the US
No, I live in PA. The company that manufactures the engine covers is from the UK.
A2 or 304 stainless is the most corrosion resistant type stainless and it's pretty tough. You could take those covers off daily without too much problems. Since it's been 6 months why not crack em loose and re torque them just to be safe.
You could do an experiment and put never seize on half of them. Never seize will likely effect your torque though so add a few more pounds.
You could do an experiment and put never seize on half of them. Never seize will likely effect your torque though so add a few more pounds.
So I torque a little higher? I was told when the threads are wet/lubricated to set the wrench to about 80% of the dry torque spec.
Fretters
Well-known member
If they're from the UK, and there was no suggestion in the instructions to lube them, you're fine. With the shite weather, combined with road salt in winter, which we have across here, the instructions should have suggested if it was necessary.
Plain galling would be of more concern than corrosion, IMHO, where stainless is concerned.
Yeah, absolutely no mention of having to apply anti seize to the bolts.
Just leave them.
Galvanic corrosion requires electrolyte to happen. Unless there's a pocket around the bolt head to collect water, galvanic corrosion is impossible.
If you do add anti-seize, you want to REDUCE the install torque. Anti-seize is a lubricant.
Galvanic corrosion requires electrolyte to happen. Unless there's a pocket around the bolt head to collect water, galvanic corrosion is impossible.
If you do add anti-seize, you want to REDUCE the install torque. Anti-seize is a lubricant.
bczygan
Well-known member
OCD alert......
You probably have a fairly decent amount of information here already to make a decision, but here is a link that may help you decide what to do.
Bimetallic (galvanic) corrosion risks from contact with galvanised steel or aluminium
http://www.bssa.org.uk/topics.php?article=89
Bimetallic (galvanic) corrosion risks from contact with galvanised steel or aluminium
http://www.bssa.org.uk/topics.php?article=89
The stainless HW issue is also galling, not so much trivial glavanic corrosion (eg like slip fits). All stainless HW typically should have anti-seize on it for that reason. A bit of anti-seize is easy and won't kill anyone.
The short timeframe of 6 montsh and dry/covered storage should not be an issue. Easy to redo and leave it be for a long time. No worries.
Most factory or good aftermarket kits will give you the torque spec for the actual hardware and alloy combinations (dry/lube etc) that they expect to be used. If you go about mix and matching on your own, maybe consult a resource on the subject. If you have stainless HW into ALU my guess is the factory spec is assuming wet (eg, anti-seize) assembly.
The short timeframe of 6 montsh and dry/covered storage should not be an issue. Easy to redo and leave it be for a long time. No worries.
Most factory or good aftermarket kits will give you the torque spec for the actual hardware and alloy combinations (dry/lube etc) that they expect to be used. If you go about mix and matching on your own, maybe consult a resource on the subject. If you have stainless HW into ALU my guess is the factory spec is assuming wet (eg, anti-seize) assembly.
SantaAna12
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Yes.
Stainless into aluminum alloy.....yes. Use some never-seize sparingly.
I am surprised I am in the minority on this.
Stainless into aluminum alloy.....yes. Use some never-seize sparingly.
I am surprised I am in the minority on this.
Lubed threads should be under torqued as a greater amount of the fastening torque is applied to turning the fastener since less is lost in friction.
Industry sets the torque values, not text books. And we set torque values based on OUR hardware. Every bit of it has something on it when it gets torqued. That's "dry torque values". Wet torque is for something extra that engineering calls out as a part like anti-seize, threadlock, or sealant.
Never put bone dry stuff together. Never. A little 3 in 1 is almost always appropriate. If you use anti-sieze, don't forget to apply it to the underside of the head. Actually, you should oil there too, not just a blob on the threads.
The galling people are hinting at occurs predominantly with stainless on stainless joints. Antiseize will help, but it's not a cure. When I have to spec out a stainless joint, we usually have the bolt silver plated.
Galling is defined as an exchange of molecules between components. In normal circumstances it occurs with parts under extreme pressure where there is relative movement.
With stainless, they chemically weld together - I've done it. Its BAD. Doesn't take much to cause it to happen. Certain stainless steels gall more readily than others. The standard A286 stuff you get at the hardware store doesn't gall easily. So antiseize is a good and effective cure for that.
As far as a stainless to aluminum joint, they aren't super far apart on the galvanic corrosion chart. I would have applied antiseize because I worry about removing the soft aluminum threads with the screws next time you disassemble. For that reason, I would leave it alone. Had a Porsche with an Al block. Whenever I did anything with that block, especially stuff like a waterpump where the screws had thread lock, I worried I'd strip out the threads. Really better off with helicoils. Where I work, we would never thread aluminum. Always helicoil it. And I've used silver plated helicoils if I thought the fasteners would need to come in and out. The cad plated steel ones can corrode.
Galling is defined as an exchange of molecules between components. In normal circumstances it occurs with parts under extreme pressure where there is relative movement.
With stainless, they chemically weld together - I've done it. Its BAD. Doesn't take much to cause it to happen. Certain stainless steels gall more readily than others. The standard A286 stuff you get at the hardware store doesn't gall easily. So antiseize is a good and effective cure for that.
As far as a stainless to aluminum joint, they aren't super far apart on the galvanic corrosion chart. I would have applied antiseize because I worry about removing the soft aluminum threads with the screws next time you disassemble. For that reason, I would leave it alone. Had a Porsche with an Al block. Whenever I did anything with that block, especially stuff like a waterpump where the screws had thread lock, I worried I'd strip out the threads. Really better off with helicoils. Where I work, we would never thread aluminum. Always helicoil it. And I've used silver plated helicoils if I thought the fasteners would need to come in and out. The cad plated steel ones can corrode.
I am not sure what you are trying to say.
Use "Dry Thread specs when tightening lubed threads?
Use stated spec, no matter what?
Do you use helicoids or threaded inserts?
sberry
Banned
No, he is saying lube it. But most if this isnt torque sensitive, you can torque an oil pan drain and probably should if one cant figure out how to do it. Some cover plates and brackets usually are not that sensitive. 3 in 1 is good, good place for that Kroil.
Last edited:
yhprum
Well-known member
I would use something .... stainless and aluminum don't get along very well together, as mentioned the loctite may provide that funtion, as you cant use anti sieze and loctite together at the same time.
bwringer
Well-known member
Me too. Are we the only other motorcycle riders in the place with real-world experience in such matters?
Seriously, yes, you MUST use antiseize on stainless bolts threaded into aluminum. If not, you (or the next owner) are going to have a very bad, expensive time at some point in the future.
Galvanic corrosion is very, very real, and no, it does NOT need immersion in salt water to get going. Just a few months and the humidity in the air is enough to create one hell of a mess.
Stainless steel and aluminum are quite far apart on the galvanic scale so they WILL corrode when in contact.
A random page with a handy chart:
http://www.kastenmarine.com/metalparts.htm
Note how regular steel is much closer to aluminum, so it's generally used in aluminum parts without special treatments.
Most case bolts are M6, so the required torque is very low (around 6-7 foot-pounds) -- you don't really need to adjust the torque figure to account for antiseize, and torque wrenches aren't that precise in that range.
Ummm, not quite.
304 stainless is kind of middle of the road corrosion resistant. Not 'bad', but not really the best.
It is also known as 18-8 stainless, because it has ~18% chromium and ~8% nickel.
For general corrosion type of corrosion, 316 has a 'better' corrosion resistance than 304. 329 has a bit better corrosion resistance in salt water than 304 or 326.
As to the OP, short answer is Yes. Use a touch of anti seize. Or some low strength anaerobic thread locker (aka 'blue' Loctite 242 or similar).
Does it matter what kind of anti seize I use? I know there are several types, copper, aluminum, nickel based. I'm not sure how true it is, but I've heard not to use a copper based anti seize because it doesn't react well with stainless steel.
Regular permatex, grey in colour, is OK.
https://www.permatex.com/product-category/lubricants/specialty-lubricants-anti-seize/
Bellaireroad
Well-known member
Take them out
Put anti-seize on
Put them back in
Then forget about it
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Put anti-seize on
Put them back in
Then forget about it
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Galling is the bigger concern before you torqued the screws. Yours are torqued, so if you galled them when you put them in, taking them out to apply antiseize to prevent galling won't be worthwhile. In fact, it may not be possible since you may not be able to remove them. Galling is very very bad.
So in your particular situation your decision now need only consider corrosion.
I'd pull them and use antisieze. SS into Al would just worry me. If you find they are stuck, re-assess. Could be galling.
I use C5-A, though there my be better.
So in your particular situation your decision now need only consider corrosion.
I'd pull them and use antisieze. SS into Al would just worry me. If you find they are stuck, re-assess. Could be galling.
I use C5-A, though there my be better.
Yes. No such thing as a "dry torque" value. The numbers come from industry where every fastener has something on it. Our general definition of dry is a used car's oxidized or slightly rusty lugs. That's not something industry would test or develop numbers for. We know such fasteners exhibit something called stick slip that causes the torque to be either too high or too low.
Moral of the story is, always lube. Just a little oil is usually sufficient. Even WD-40 is better than nothing. And when you want accurate torques, your parts must be in like new condition, clean, lightly oiled, make sure under the head is clean and lightly oiled. Then use the dry torque value. Wet numbers are for heavy greases, sealants etc
You guys are right. Somewhere along the line I've been over torquing neversieze thinking with less friction it spins up to torque so easily it is more likely to vibrate loose. Loctite on the other hand I use regular specs knowing it will set to a super bond in 24 hr.
Ummm, not quite.
304 stainless is kind of middle of the road corrosion resistant. Not 'bad', but not really the best.
It is also known as 18-8 stainless, because it has ~18% chromium and ~8% nickel.
For general corrosion type of corrosion, 316 has a 'better' corrosion resistance than 304. 329 has a bit better corrosion resistance in salt water than 304 or 326.
Ha ha, now we're splitting hairs. I was generalizing, austenitic stainless steel (group 200 - 300) is the most corrosion resistant of the 4 classes of wrought stainless steels was my meaning. The makers of the fasteners would have chosen that group for it's resistance to corrosion but of them 304 offered other properties of importance to the application for them.
I just want to thank you guys for all the great advice. Seems like people are on both sides of the fence on this one, but it seems everyone agrees that anti seize can't hurt. So I'm going to CAREFULLY ease out the bolts, apply some anti seize and tighten them back up. If the bolts give me any resistance, I'll stop. From this point on I'll be sure to use anti seize. Thanks again guys.
That sounds like a good approach. Always lube everything. Its the right thing to do. I even lube screws into a plastic to keep them from rusting.
Make sure you do under the head, then wipe the final installation clean with mineral spirits or WD-40. You don't want gobs of stuff on your parts.
You can use the wet torque value. Should be about 5% lower. Wet vs dry is not as important as clean and technique. Both effect the pull up to a much larger extent which is why I tell people not to bother torque stuff if they aren't interested in controlling these two things. Really, easier for us in industry to do a good job because every part is clean, every fastener pre-lubed. So maintenance work requires MORE skill, not less.
Good luck, PM me if you have any further questions (anyone).
MemphisR32
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Great choice on the GB covers. I have them on my Triumph STR and have no issues with them installed without any treatment to the bolts. Saved my engine also on a slow side. They work well!
Forget exactly were I found the information, but I recall "dry" being clean, dry, and uncoated threads.
If (and this is the big "IF") it is a torque critical fastener, Any lubrication, even using plated threads lowers the amount of torque required to get the desired clamping force.
That said, 99% of fasteners are not critical, and critical fasteners are going to torque plus angle specifications.
If (and this is the big "IF") it is a torque critical fastener, Any lubrication, even using plated threads lowers the amount of torque required to get the desired clamping force.
That said, 99% of fasteners are not critical, and critical fasteners are going to torque plus angle specifications.