Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
See my post above.
Wilton Bullet Vise date stamping. show yours with or without EXP on slide
- Thread starter drivesitfar
- Start date
The database was evolving as I did it and I added some columns without going back and adding the data from previous entries.
The first column DATE was a sorting column. Chicago vises without dates were added as 1/1/1941 and Schiller Park vises were added as 1/1/1957.
Outlaw, that is why there are 1/1/1957 dates, there were no bullets STAMPED with that date.
I added the ACTUAL STAMP column of the date actually stamped on the slide later. Since I still wanted it sortable I put the AS in front of it and did not include GUAR EXP since there was already a column for that.
Thee are things I would do different if I started over but if you assume 10 minutes average for researching and updating each vise entry I have well over 40 hours of working on this database. And that might be a bit low on my estimate.
The first column DATE was a sorting column. Chicago vises without dates were added as 1/1/1941 and Schiller Park vises were added as 1/1/1957.
Outlaw, that is why there are 1/1/1957 dates, there were no bullets STAMPED with that date.
I added the ACTUAL STAMP column of the date actually stamped on the slide later. Since I still wanted it sortable I put the AS in front of it and did not include GUAR EXP since there was already a column for that.
Thee are things I would do different if I started over but if you assume 10 minutes average for researching and updating each vise entry I have well over 40 hours of working on this database. And that might be a bit low on my estimate.
Outlawmws
Well-known member
So which Col is hard data? the ACTUAL STAMP, or the DATE-GUAR?
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Having created several worksheet tools like this in Excel for very similar tool research efforts (wartime alloy restrictions timeline, Willys MB production timeline, midget socket set changes in fed specs and collected examples, etc - and trust me, I could go on and on...), it's a fine database and served its purpose well once you understand the schema. Well done, bluebolt.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
ACTUAL STAMP, except he did not enter the EXP GUAR prefix, which is no big deal (since redundant). If there is a YES in the GUAR EXP column (E), it means that accompanied the date in the ACTUAL STAMP column (B).
You mean post #146 LOL?
A: DATE: Date stamped on slide, if bare (un-stamped) it has 1/1/1941 for Chicago vises and 1/1/1957 for Schiller Park vises.
Edit: I put all these with a month/day/year format even if they only had a month/year stamp so they could be sorted. If you see a date with "1" for the day that means it only had a month/year stamp.
B: ACTUAL STAMP: Exactly what is stamped on slide for a date.
C: DATE-GUAR: For those with GUAR EXP stamped on them this is the stamped date minus the guarantee length, 5 years for bullets, 3 years for Cadets.
D: JAW WIDTH: Width of jaws, if followed by a P it is a C series combo vise with pipe jaws, followed by SJ it's a swivel jaw.
E: GUAR EXP: Is it stamped with GUAR EXP, YES or NO
F: REMARKS: Markings on vise, Patent Pending, Wilton "straight" or "curved". 14 is the handful of vises with the 2 digit postal code.
G: LOCATION: Where it was made, Chicago or Schiller Park, note Heftylefty's very early vise only marked USA!
H: AVATAR: Who posted it notice I got some from Ebay.
I: THREAD: Exactly which thread it came from, VT is the big vise thread, WDT is this Wilton Date Thread, VIN FOR is the Vintage Tool Forum, GTF is the General Tool Forum. Ebay vises have the day they closed out.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
I will go back to see if I mistakenly miscounted a Cadet in the numbers, Outlaw. It would have no affect on the conclusions. The salience of the point remains the same and hopefully it is clear. Some number of the bullet vises in the 1-945 through 4-47 range had date stamp AFTER the reference to a 1-year guarantee (January 1942) and BEFORE the reference to a 5-year guarantee (June 1947), and some number of the bullet vises in that range had a date stamp AFTER the reference to the 5-year guarantee (June 1947) and well before the GUAR EXP date stamps start showing up (as I stated in my first post, 12-31-59 for a bullet).Outlawmws said:
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Some of my pertinent posts all in one post!
03/15/2015: After doing all this data research I am going to give my own conclusions. Notice I did not say FACTS. We may never know some information well enough to call it a fact.
1. I believe the early dated vises are when the START of the warranty period was. There are several reasons for this.
One thing to remember is we don't know exactly when in the manufacturing process the vise was stamped.
A. When it was first cast?
B. When it was machined?
C. When it was put on the "next batch out" shelf?
We have no idea if all the castings were machined right after casting or if some were put aside and may not be machined months or even years later. The baby bullets are the best example, there have been Chicago cast "baby's" found with date stampings all the way up to 1980! And there is a 6" swivel jaw Patent Pending vise with a 1972 date code!
A: You are not supposed to put Patent Pending on something until it has actually been applied for at the US Patent Office. So Patent Pending vises should not have a date before September 1946 (patent applied for 1 August 1941) if the stamped date was an expiration. And the patent was approved 3 March of 1942 so if the date stamp is an expiration all vises should be patent pending before a date stamp of 4/1947. But as seen by the data this is not the case.
B. After seeing all these vises the casting variations become obvious. The 4" is the most obvious example. You could write a LONG post just about the 4" casting variations. The most interesting 4" ones:
1. Pat Pending No 4 without[/B Chicago, only says USA. Possibly the first batch of Wilton's cast for sale to the government. After I started looking for these found a lot more, many on Ebay.
2. Pat Pending No 4 with Chicago. These are actually more common than you think. Saw plenty on Ebay.
3. The common Chicago USA with the Wilton being curved, no patent pending.
Point being lots of variations but the if the date stamps were date of expiration you would expect more separation between them in the dates in my opinion.
C. And the biggest issue in my opinion is the total lack of a bullet with a date stamp between 1954 and 1959. But you say Cadets have stamps in that time period. And that leads to my new theory!
CADET'S caused all the damn GUAR EXP trouble!
I don't know exactly what year Cadet vises came out but I suspect it is 1952 or maybe 1951 by the handful of dates I have seen. My theory is since they looked like Bullet's which had a 5 year guarantee Wilton may have from the start on the Cadet's (with their 3 year guarantee) put the Expiration date to eliminate confusion. ( but only made it worse for us years later LOL.) And then around 1954 they started doing the same to the bullets. And then in 1959ish they went back to having the "release for sale" date on the slide.
Now we may find some vises that change this theory. So keep your eyes open and post up!
TO BE CONTINUED
03-16-2015 There may not have been much of a problem with getting the new factory going. It was less than 13 miles from the old factory at 941 W. Wrightwood Avenue Chicago to the new factory at 9525 W. Irving Park Rd., Schiller Park, IL 60176. Wilton's official history says it was a transition and I think the new factory may have been at least partly operating for a while before they closed the old one.
From "Peter" on Practical Machinist website.
"I have several old wilton catalogs. I found this information in the 1956 catalog. List of patents:
131498 Wilton vise
2693727 Wiltomatic power bench vie
2708381, 2708382 Milomatic power machine vise
2430458 woodworker vise
2430458(?) Powrlock c-clamps
2354937,2359925 Powrarm work positioners
D-29738 Cadet mechanic vise
164143 Shop King vise
154001 Torco vise
Statement, a new plant opened in 1955 at Schiller Park, Chicago of 68,000 sqft
Later catalogs show a line of drill press and band saws.
In both 1950 & 1951 catalogs they boast of 40,000 sqft on Wrightwood, Chicago On a company letter, I see Alex J. Vogl was president in 1961 and he signed the correspondence in person.
03/18/2015 Added your SJ to the database VA. It's the latest GUAR EXP date in the database so far although there is a C1 that shares it.
Looking at the data looks like Wilton stamped bullets with the GUAR EXP for the years 1954-1959. Cadets started earlier with the earliest so far being made in 1952.
Even with the added data (155 vises so far) I still believe it goes like this.
1941-1944 all vises produced for the military, not stamped.
1945-1953 Bullets stamped with the "release for sale soon" date. This is not when it was made, vises may have been made years earlier but not sold.
1952 (or maybe earlier) Cadets stamped with GUAR EXP date for the expiration of 3 year warranty
1954-1959 Bullets stamped with GUAR EXP date for the expiration of 5 year warranty
1960 Wilton starts putting the "release for sale soon" date on them again.
9/29-2015: Since Drivesitfar brang it up again yes the dates for BULLETS And C-series vises appear to go like this so far. I am not discussing Cadet's at this time because their changing length of guarantee on the early years and it confuses things. This is a sampling ov over 200 vises.
1941-1944: US gov't vises no stamp. Over 30 vises like this.
1945: first stamped vises date from 1-945 to 6-945 with a 3 digit year code.
1945-1953: vise with 2 digit year code found 8-45 which the stamp appears this way up to 12-53.
1954, 1955, 1956, 1957, 1958, 1959. No bullets so far with any of these years stamped UNLESS they have GUAR EXP stamped also (some GUAR EXP 12-31-1959 vises).
GUAR EXP BULLET vises have date stampings so far from 12-31-1959 to 12-31-1964. Twertsy has a GUAR EXP vise with a 12-30-66 but this does not line up with the other ones and may be a miss-stamp.
Vise stampings that don't have GUAR EXP stamped show up with dates of 6-30-60 and after.
_________________
03/15/2015: After doing all this data research I am going to give my own conclusions. Notice I did not say FACTS. We may never know some information well enough to call it a fact.
1. I believe the early dated vises are when the START of the warranty period was. There are several reasons for this.
One thing to remember is we don't know exactly when in the manufacturing process the vise was stamped.
A. When it was first cast?
B. When it was machined?
C. When it was put on the "next batch out" shelf?
We have no idea if all the castings were machined right after casting or if some were put aside and may not be machined months or even years later. The baby bullets are the best example, there have been Chicago cast "baby's" found with date stampings all the way up to 1980! And there is a 6" swivel jaw Patent Pending vise with a 1972 date code!
A: You are not supposed to put Patent Pending on something until it has actually been applied for at the US Patent Office. So Patent Pending vises should not have a date before September 1946 (patent applied for 1 August 1941) if the stamped date was an expiration. And the patent was approved 3 March of 1942 so if the date stamp is an expiration all vises should be patent pending before a date stamp of 4/1947. But as seen by the data this is not the case.
B. After seeing all these vises the casting variations become obvious. The 4" is the most obvious example. You could write a LONG post just about the 4" casting variations. The most interesting 4" ones:
1. Pat Pending No 4 without[/B Chicago, only says USA. Possibly the first batch of Wilton's cast for sale to the government. After I started looking for these found a lot more, many on Ebay.
2. Pat Pending No 4 with Chicago. These are actually more common than you think. Saw plenty on Ebay.
3. The common Chicago USA with the Wilton being curved, no patent pending.
Point being lots of variations but the if the date stamps were date of expiration you would expect more separation between them in the dates in my opinion.
C. And the biggest issue in my opinion is the total lack of a bullet with a date stamp between 1954 and 1959. But you say Cadets have stamps in that time period. And that leads to my new theory!
CADET'S caused all the damn GUAR EXP trouble!
I don't know exactly what year Cadet vises came out but I suspect it is 1952 or maybe 1951 by the handful of dates I have seen. My theory is since they looked like Bullet's which had a 5 year guarantee Wilton may have from the start on the Cadet's (with their 3 year guarantee) put the Expiration date to eliminate confusion. ( but only made it worse for us years later LOL.) And then around 1954 they started doing the same to the bullets. And then in 1959ish they went back to having the "release for sale" date on the slide.
Now we may find some vises that change this theory. So keep your eyes open and post up!
TO BE CONTINUED
03-16-2015 There may not have been much of a problem with getting the new factory going. It was less than 13 miles from the old factory at 941 W. Wrightwood Avenue Chicago to the new factory at 9525 W. Irving Park Rd., Schiller Park, IL 60176. Wilton's official history says it was a transition and I think the new factory may have been at least partly operating for a while before they closed the old one.
From "Peter" on Practical Machinist website.
"I have several old wilton catalogs. I found this information in the 1956 catalog. List of patents:
131498 Wilton vise
2693727 Wiltomatic power bench vie
2708381, 2708382 Milomatic power machine vise
2430458 woodworker vise
2430458(?) Powrlock c-clamps
2354937,2359925 Powrarm work positioners
D-29738 Cadet mechanic vise
164143 Shop King vise
154001 Torco vise
Statement, a new plant opened in 1955 at Schiller Park, Chicago of 68,000 sqft
Later catalogs show a line of drill press and band saws.
In both 1950 & 1951 catalogs they boast of 40,000 sqft on Wrightwood, Chicago On a company letter, I see Alex J. Vogl was president in 1961 and he signed the correspondence in person.
03/18/2015 Added your SJ to the database VA. It's the latest GUAR EXP date in the database so far although there is a C1 that shares it.
Looking at the data looks like Wilton stamped bullets with the GUAR EXP for the years 1954-1959. Cadets started earlier with the earliest so far being made in 1952.
Even with the added data (155 vises so far) I still believe it goes like this.
1941-1944 all vises produced for the military, not stamped.
1945-1953 Bullets stamped with the "release for sale soon" date. This is not when it was made, vises may have been made years earlier but not sold.
1952 (or maybe earlier) Cadets stamped with GUAR EXP date for the expiration of 3 year warranty
1954-1959 Bullets stamped with GUAR EXP date for the expiration of 5 year warranty
1960 Wilton starts putting the "release for sale soon" date on them again.
9/29-2015: Since Drivesitfar brang it up again yes the dates for BULLETS And C-series vises appear to go like this so far. I am not discussing Cadet's at this time because their changing length of guarantee on the early years and it confuses things. This is a sampling ov over 200 vises.
1941-1944: US gov't vises no stamp. Over 30 vises like this.
1945: first stamped vises date from 1-945 to 6-945 with a 3 digit year code.
1945-1953: vise with 2 digit year code found 8-45 which the stamp appears this way up to 12-53.
1954, 1955, 1956, 1957, 1958, 1959. No bullets so far with any of these years stamped UNLESS they have GUAR EXP stamped also (some GUAR EXP 12-31-1959 vises).
GUAR EXP BULLET vises have date stampings so far from 12-31-1959 to 12-31-1964. Twertsy has a GUAR EXP vise with a 12-30-66 but this does not line up with the other ones and may be a miss-stamp.
Vise stampings that don't have GUAR EXP stamped show up with dates of 6-30-60 and after.
_________________
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Outlawmws
Well-known member
OK, my corrected data, and NOW it supports Lugs conclusions.
ACTUAL Date STAMP / Date gap col D
08-45 start
08-45 0.0
09-45 0.1
09-45 0.0
09-45 0.0
11-45 0.2
11-45 0.0
11-45 0.0
12-45 0.1
02-46 0.2
03-46 0.1
03-46 0.0
03-46 0.0
04-46 0.1
04-46 0.0
06-46 0.2
07-46 0.1
07-46 0.0
08-46 0.1
08-46 0.0
11-46 0.3
11-46 0.0
11-46 0.0
12-46 0.1
12-46 0.0
01-47 0.1
01-47 0.0
02-47 0.1
02-47 0.0
02-47 0.0
02-47 0.0
02-47 0.0
03-47 0.1
03-47 0.0
03-47 0.0
04-47 0.1
06-47 0.2
09-47 0.3
09-47 0.0
11-48 1.2
12-50 2.1
03-51 0.2
05-51 0.2
09-51 0.3
11-51 0.2
03-53 1.3
05-53 0.2
06-53 0.1
12-53 0.5
12-53 0.0
12-59 6.1 Start of the MARKED "EXP" dates - So actual Mfg. date would have been 5 years earlier.
ACTUAL Date STAMP / Date gap col D
08-45 start
08-45 0.0
09-45 0.1
09-45 0.0
09-45 0.0
11-45 0.2
11-45 0.0
11-45 0.0
12-45 0.1
02-46 0.2
03-46 0.1
03-46 0.0
03-46 0.0
04-46 0.1
04-46 0.0
06-46 0.2
07-46 0.1
07-46 0.0
08-46 0.1
08-46 0.0
11-46 0.3
11-46 0.0
11-46 0.0
12-46 0.1
12-46 0.0
01-47 0.1
01-47 0.0
02-47 0.1
02-47 0.0
02-47 0.0
02-47 0.0
02-47 0.0
03-47 0.1
03-47 0.0
03-47 0.0
04-47 0.1
06-47 0.2
09-47 0.3
09-47 0.0
11-48 1.2
12-50 2.1
03-51 0.2
05-51 0.2
09-51 0.3
11-51 0.2
03-53 1.3
05-53 0.2
06-53 0.1
12-53 0.5
12-53 0.0
12-59 6.1 Start of the MARKED "EXP" dates - So actual Mfg. date would have been 5 years earlier.
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Outlawmws
Well-known member
You know guys if you read all 31 pages of this thread a lot of your questions would be answered LOL. Get cracking!
Private Lugnutz, a few things.
First, thanks for taking the time to go over the database and making your observations.
Second, I disagree with your theory that the 1-945 to 6-945 dates are a range of several months each, I still think it is a month-year with the single digit the month and 945 the year. The database goes smoothly from the 6-945 to 8-45, 9-45, 10-45, 11-45 and 12-45. So far a July 1945 vise has not shown up in either 7-945 or 7-45 format.
Third, I haven't seen enough catalogs to know when actually the Cadet warranties changed but the 1954, 1960 and 1963 catalog pages for Cadets were posted earlier in this thread. In 1954 it was 1 year, in 1960 it was 2 years and 1963 it was 3 years.
Fourth, interested in being another keeper of the flame and have access to update the database?
Private Lugnutz, a few things.
First, thanks for taking the time to go over the database and making your observations.
Second, I disagree with your theory that the 1-945 to 6-945 dates are a range of several months each, I still think it is a month-year with the single digit the month and 945 the year. The database goes smoothly from the 6-945 to 8-45, 9-45, 10-45, 11-45 and 12-45. So far a July 1945 vise has not shown up in either 7-945 or 7-45 format.
Third, I haven't seen enough catalogs to know when actually the Cadet warranties changed but the 1954, 1960 and 1963 catalog pages for Cadets were posted earlier in this thread. In 1954 it was 1 year, in 1960 it was 2 years and 1963 it was 3 years.
Fourth, interested in being another keeper of the flame and have access to update the database?
Outlawmws
Well-known member
I think Drives needs to go edit Post One with known hard facts so we DON'T have to read 30-40-100 pages to find out whats what. After all, it's his fault the thread exists! 
OP
drivesitfar
Well-known member
Outlaw: i think all the members that want to know how their Wilton date stamp was stamped should read all the discussions and make their own summary so for now i won't be changing the 1st post. (i haven't read it in a while so if it is wrong i'll change it). thanks for driving the conversation and maybe learning something too.
BLUEBOLT: thanks again for taking all the time to look up and make an Excel sheet so we can all benefit.
Lug: thanks for finding a few more clues and telling us a few of the WWII programs that would have affected Wilton's beginnings. and for sticking your neck out and putting together a valuable summary. WELL DONE!!
ALL:i'm happy we have some sort of collective agreement based on what facts and information we've found so far. i'm not sure it's correct 100%, so leaving the thread open for discussion and having it gather even more information is ok by me.
should we ask why mine and maybe a few other vises are double stamped and why some vises definitely made in Chicago factory molds are stamped well into the 70's and 80's?
ok we are good for now and thanks to all that have participated so far and still looking for more information.
1) when did Vogl move to the United States from Czechoslovakia and did he get permission or borrow YORK'S design
2) how did a brand new company get a good portion of UNCLE SAM'S business at the beginning of WWII?
3) i'm sure there are more and i apologize, but I'll let others mention their questions.
it's been sorta fun so far trying to figure all this out and i think all of us that have participated in this thread have learned something they didn't know before reading it.
BLUEBOLT: thanks again for taking all the time to look up and make an Excel sheet so we can all benefit.
Lug: thanks for finding a few more clues and telling us a few of the WWII programs that would have affected Wilton's beginnings. and for sticking your neck out and putting together a valuable summary. WELL DONE!!
ALL:i'm happy we have some sort of collective agreement based on what facts and information we've found so far. i'm not sure it's correct 100%, so leaving the thread open for discussion and having it gather even more information is ok by me.
should we ask why mine and maybe a few other vises are double stamped and why some vises definitely made in Chicago factory molds are stamped well into the 70's and 80's?
ok we are good for now and thanks to all that have participated so far and still looking for more information.
1) when did Vogl move to the United States from Czechoslovakia and did he get permission or borrow YORK'S design
2) how did a brand new company get a good portion of UNCLE SAM'S business at the beginning of WWII?
3) i'm sure there are more and i apologize, but I'll let others mention their questions.
it's been sorta fun so far trying to figure all this out and i think all of us that have participated in this thread have learned something they didn't know before reading it.
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KMScott
Well-known member
Thanks Blue for all your work, I go to your spreadsheet almost as much as FMC's. I get calls everyday with persons wanting dates and info that you guys have researched. I understand this takes time, and Thanks again for your work. I just spent 5 days (10 hour days) building 2 pairs of Parker jaws for vises that were used without them and know we do this not for money but for the fondness of vises. Private Lugnutz and Outlaw are also appreciated by the vise crew. Keep up the good work guys.
Shiftless
Well-known member
Kevin said it all. Thanks to all you guys for keeping this whole wonderful thing going. 
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
I can't and won't speak for Outlaw, but the January 1942 issue of The Tool Engineer, in concert with the June 1947 issue of Popular Mechanics and the page from the 1950 Wilton catalog, certainly helped clinch the conclusions I had already been formulating just from a review of the ACTUAL STAMP data in the database alone. In fact, they are crucial. The 1-year guarantee advertised in the January 1942 trade journal in particular illustrates that Vogl started offering a guarantee from the very beginning of his operations in 1941, which coincided with our build-up to war. Whether Wilton actually followed through on the guarantee for the vises he was selling to the US Government and/or its war production contractors directly (IH, Buick, Atlas, etc) is unknown. With no vises in the database with date stamps earlier than 1945, he had to have been using paper records prior to that. Perhaps the potential problems implicit in that prompted him to start date stamping in 1945.
Hugh Vogl was a citizen of Czechoslovakia and working as salesman for York when he applied for Design Patent D131,498 on August 1, 1941. He established Wilton Tool Mfg Co in January 1942. The York vise, designed by a citizen of Czechoslovakia, and built in Czechoslovakia, was patented in Germany (DE685,893) in 1939. (Keep in mind that Czechoslovakia was occupied by Germany at that time, so what this patent actually meant in terms of rights, is suspect.)
If you've never looked at both patents side by side, Drives, you should. There is zero doubt in my mind that Vogl copied the vise he was selling. As I noted in a post upthread at the end of my conclusions, Design Patents are quick and easy to begin with (two views, outline drawings of shape only, no mechanical description, no internal mechanical drawings). Imagine how much quicker and easier it would be if you were drawing the shape of an existing vise as a model. Imagine also how much quicker and easier it would be to reverse engineer and build.
EDIT: On November 12, 1947, when Vogl applied for his second patent (D154,001), also a Design Patent, for the other style (Torco) bench vise Wilton made starting in the late 1940's, he was a citizen of the US.
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Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Agreed. Also, and more damning in my mind, the 8-45 and 9-45 date stamps would be redundant. Thanks.
Sure, sign me up.bluebolt said:
Full admission that I have dozens of these kinds of databases and worksheets going on another forum that I am always delinquent in keeping up to date (no comments from "the peanut gallery", d42jeep, User Name Already in Use, and twertsy!)
twertsy
Well-known member
Agreed. Also, and more damning in my mind, the 8-45 and 9-45 date stamps would be redundant. Thanks.
Sure, sign me up.
Full admission that I have dozens of these kinds of databases and worksheets going on another forum that I am always delinquent in keeping up to date (no comments from "the peanut gallery", d42jeep, User Name Already in Use, and twertsy!)
Username already in use
Well-known member
I'm just happy to see the research/worksheets updated on occasion. You have a knack for it.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
See, that's what I love about this hobby. If you ask for a YOU ****, you'll never reach true **** status, and if you say "No comments from the peanut gallery," you're sure to take comments, open fire, and smacks on the head from the peanut gallery! 
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
No problem.
I have added Wilton to my list of companies to look up the next time I visit these books at the institution they are kept:
If Wilton had “major” contracts (only includes those worth $50,000 or more), I will be eager to see when the first one was awarded! It might helps us get more definitive than "1941". (At the retail prices I have seen advertised in the 1940’s, I am skeptical of Wilton having the capacity to fill an order that large.)
Switching subjects to Limitation Order L-216.
As I mentioned in several posts upthread, and in various threads over the course of the last 5 years where it has come up in discussion, L-216 limited what US manufacturers could make and sell commercially. It was published in schedules, for each type/category of tool. The intent was to optimize their efforts for war production. If you’ve ever studied any wartime hand or power tool catalog, or seen the examples I have posted in various threads when it has come up, you’ll see the fingerprints/end result of L-216 in the form of caveats and warnings about materials, warnings about not being able to sell entire tool-sets, and redlines (strike-throughs), eliminating particular tools or sizes of tools. These were tools that could not be sold commercially. They were only being made for war contracts. L-216, along with various M (Material) Orders restricting steel compositions, have been instrumental in helping wartime collectors understand wartime wrenches, DOE’s and DBE’s in particular.
I have now reviewed Schedule VI (Vises) thoroughly.
Where do you "vise guys" recommend I post a summary? It is not pertinent only to Wilton, obviously. So I don’t know if this thread is the best place. Maybe nobody cares.
Outlawmws
Well-known member
Lug, I would post it both here and in the "Vises" thread, as most applicable. I don't see an issue with double or even >triple posting where it is relevant. Where it often gets "lost" is in independent threads IMO, as most are short lived.
Outlawmws
Well-known member
Totally agree. This info has been missing in all other discussions I've seen on the topic, here at GJ, and other places found in Google searches on the topic.
Having the database with sufficient dates to close all the gaps in Mfg, dates, but for that 5 (6) year gap nailed it down. while its possible the data in that gap is simply missing, it's in my opinion unlikely to be any other answer than the start of the EXP dates.
The only thing that surprises me in the DB is the number of undated Wilton vises. BB, is that because there was no date, or it was just unavailable? Only you could give an estimate. There are actually more with no Actual Date Stamp than with...
twertsy
Well-known member
No problem.
I have added Wilton to my list of companies to look up the next time I visit these books at the institution they are kept:
If Wilton had “major” contracts (only includes those worth $50,000 or more), I will be eager to see when the first one was awarded! It might helps us get more definitive than "1941". (At the retail prices I have seen advertised in the 1940’s, I am skeptical of Wilton having the capacity to fill an order that large.)
Switching subjects to Limitation Order L-216.
As I mentioned in several posts upthread, and in various threads over the course of the last 5 years where it has come up in discussion, L-216 limited what US manufacturers could make and sell commercially. It was published in schedules, for each type/category of tool. The intent was to optimize their efforts for war production. If you’ve ever studied any wartime hand or power tool catalog, or seen the examples I have posted in various threads when it has come up, you’ll see the fingerprints/end result of L-216 in the form of caveats and warnings about materials, warnings about not being able to sell entire tool-sets, and redlines (strike-throughs), eliminating particular tools or sizes of tools. These were tools that could not be sold commercially. They were only being made for war contracts. L-216, along with various M (Material) Orders restricting steel compositions, have been instrumental in helping wartime collectors understand wartime wrenches, DOE’s and DBE’s in particular.
I have now reviewed Schedule VI (Vises) thoroughly.
Where do you "vise guys" recommend I post a summary? It is not pertinent only to Wilton, obviously. So I don’t know if this thread is the best place. Maybe nobody cares.
In terms of "help wanted" newspaper advertisements, there is 1 in 1942, 3 in 1943, and hundreds and hundreds for 44 and 45. That is probably a good indicator........
OP
drivesitfar
Well-known member
LUG: thanks again for continuing to add to the research and that patent and where Vogl was living in 1941 is very helpful along with the other things you've found.
since i get asked quite a bit on the vise repair 101 thread other than this one that would be a good place to post your summary and if you take a look at post #2 the members and i have gathered quite a list of vise companies you might like to see. i'll cut and paste your summary onto one of the earlier pages of that thread that i reserved for information that gets asked all the time.
also in case you might need any help with your new (old) wilton bullet posting pictures and questions on that thread sometimes will get you a quick answer.
just a thought i wonder if Wilton doesn't have a lot of it's history records kept because of it's owner's past and the YORK connection??
thanks again for your help
TWERTSY: well albeit a little late to the party it's still going on and we'd still like to find out more information about Wilton and their vises if you happen upon any in your research. oh and don't shoot LUG!!
since i get asked quite a bit on the vise repair 101 thread other than this one that would be a good place to post your summary and if you take a look at post #2 the members and i have gathered quite a list of vise companies you might like to see. i'll cut and paste your summary onto one of the earlier pages of that thread that i reserved for information that gets asked all the time.
also in case you might need any help with your new (old) wilton bullet posting pictures and questions on that thread sometimes will get you a quick answer.
just a thought i wonder if Wilton doesn't have a lot of it's history records kept because of it's owner's past and the YORK connection??
thanks again for your help
TWERTSY: well albeit a little late to the party it's still going on and we'd still like to find out more information about Wilton and their vises if you happen upon any in your research. oh and don't shoot LUG!!
The Actual Stamp column was added later, I tried updating it but many of the pictures are gone from old posts and it is time consuming. Plus in the giant vise thread the post numbers are off due to people being banned or removing their posts. I have started putting down the date instead of the post number, easier to find!
So unless it has a 1/1/1941 date for Chicago vises or 1/1/1957 date for Schiller's they had a date stamp, I just didn't have the Actual Stamp column at the time.
For most vises it's easy to figure out what the actual stamp would read by looking at others of that era.
I also have color codes I haven't mentioned, blue digits are GUAR EXP vises, red digits are anomalies that don't fit the patterns.
OP
drivesitfar
Well-known member
ALL: while we are on the beginnings of WILTON which might be the best marketed vise in history in the USA i'm sure it had something to do with the demise of other old vise companies like PARKER who bought PRENTISS, ROCK ISLAND, DESMOND STEPHENS.
with Uncle Sam's order to slow down and/or stop production and bringing Wilton (a brand new vise company) into the picture i bet there were more than a few unhappy vise company owners.
I'm not sure how many vise companies dated their vises, but only Rock Island comes to mind and the Craftsman 519x's were dated similar to Rock Island which is leading that thread to think Rock Island might have been trying to stay alive by making vises for Sears after the war.
LUG: i'm not so good with patents and drawings, but some day i will be and thanks again for the tip to check out Wilton/York connection and maybe JKB, Bl00 or other Patent experts that are members will do a summary post on it.
thanks again for your help!!
with Uncle Sam's order to slow down and/or stop production and bringing Wilton (a brand new vise company) into the picture i bet there were more than a few unhappy vise company owners.
I'm not sure how many vise companies dated their vises, but only Rock Island comes to mind and the Craftsman 519x's were dated similar to Rock Island which is leading that thread to think Rock Island might have been trying to stay alive by making vises for Sears after the war.
LUG: i'm not so good with patents and drawings, but some day i will be and thanks again for the tip to check out Wilton/York connection and maybe JKB, Bl00 or other Patent experts that are members will do a summary post on it.
thanks again for your help!!
PghJKB
Well-known member
My 2¢
I found Patent #1887829 during one of my category searches last year. It is titled Screw Vise and submitted by one Hugo Vogl of Prague, Czechoslovakia. This individual also received a Czech patent for this same submission. This is too much to be a coincidence. (You know what Mulder had to say about coincidences)
I gather Vogl was a smart, vise and patent savvy person. And, most probably, well connected in the "Vise World".
Whenever he did get to the US, IMHO he decided there was little market for his patent and went with the York design.
There was nothing about the York that would qualify for a Utility patent so he went the way of a Design patten. Every feature but the shape was prior work.
To paraphrase the Pvt, he needed to put something together fast and took the path of least resistance.
Here is the USPTO link to the patent 1887829:
http://pdfpiw.uspto.gov/.piw?PageNu...1=1887829.PN.%26OS=pn/1887829%26RS=PN/1887829
According the the website http://libertyellisfoundation.org/passenger-result a Hugo Vogl made three (3) arrivals to the US from Czechoslovakia. First one, 1930, second one, 1936 (on the Queen Mary!). Final arrival 1937 at age 42. He was probably not making these trips in steerage.
BTW - The signatures on the patents do not match. But none of the signatures on his patents match one another.
BTW On Monday I requested that Google open The Tool Engineer. My requests have been 31/31 successful. Hopefully they are not sick of seeing another request by me and my streak continues.
JKB
Attachments
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Agreed! Clever approach, Todd. Gears are already turning for how that correlates with L-216 info. And I am wondering how it will fit with the contract info.
Second good laugh of the day!
Excellent! I was planning a trip to Rutgers University one day, where they have 1941 and 1942 on microform. Even though my search on 'Wilton Tool Mfg Co' did not show up in 1941, only in 1942, Volume 11, I want to double check.PghJKB said:
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Overview of War Production Board Limitation Order L-216 Schedule VI (Vises)
Issued: September 7, 1943
Suspended awaiting amendment: October 13, 1943
Amended: January 4, 1944
Amended: March 18, 1944 (Revised Material Restrictions)
Revoked: October 6, 1944
Summary of the September 7, 1943 order:
On and after this day…
- Vises could only be made of carbon steel, or cast or malleable iron
- Jaw facings could be made of tool steel
- Jaw caps could only be made of lead or lead-based alloy
No manufacturing of any machinists' bench vises for commercial inventory EXCEPT FOR the following type and sizes (inches):
- Combination, bench and pipe, swivel base: 4-1/2, 6
- Stationary base, stationary jaw: 3, 3-1/2, 4, 4-1/2, 5, 6, and 8
- Swivel base, stationary jaw: 2, 3, 3-1/2, 4, 4-1/2, 5, 6, and 8
- Swivel base, swivel jaw: 3-1/2, 4, 5, and 6
While the order includes all kinds of vises (blacksmiths’, woodworkers’, jewelers’, etc), I am only reporting on the machinists’ vises
Summary of the January 4, 1944 amendment:
On and after this day…
No changes to materials limitations.
No manufacturing of any machinists' bench vises for commercial inventory EXCEPT FOR the following type and sizes (inches):
- Stationary base, stationary jaw: 4, 4-1/2, 5, 6, and 8
Summary of the March 18, 1944 amendment: DO NOT HAVE A COPY OF THIS
Summary of what all this means:
Before September 7, 1943, there were no restrictions.
Between September 7, 1943 and January 4, 1944, there were restrictions, but they don’t seem very restrictive to me. You "vise guys" may see more sizes missing (and therefore, restricted from making and selling or storing) than me.
Between January 4, 1944 and October 6, 1944 the restrictions were severe. The US Government was basically taking all the vises they could get, except stationary base and jaw vises.
EDIT: Even though you guys don't know him, I want to credit a research colleague, Roger Milam of the UK, for help with the WPB Limitation Order L-216.
Issued: September 7, 1943
Suspended awaiting amendment: October 13, 1943
Amended: January 4, 1944
Amended: March 18, 1944 (Revised Material Restrictions)
Revoked: October 6, 1944
Summary of the September 7, 1943 order:
On and after this day…
- Vises could only be made of carbon steel, or cast or malleable iron
- Jaw facings could be made of tool steel
- Jaw caps could only be made of lead or lead-based alloy
No manufacturing of any machinists' bench vises for commercial inventory EXCEPT FOR the following type and sizes (inches):
- Combination, bench and pipe, swivel base: 4-1/2, 6
- Stationary base, stationary jaw: 3, 3-1/2, 4, 4-1/2, 5, 6, and 8
- Swivel base, stationary jaw: 2, 3, 3-1/2, 4, 4-1/2, 5, 6, and 8
- Swivel base, swivel jaw: 3-1/2, 4, 5, and 6
While the order includes all kinds of vises (blacksmiths’, woodworkers’, jewelers’, etc), I am only reporting on the machinists’ vises
Summary of the January 4, 1944 amendment:
On and after this day…
No changes to materials limitations.
No manufacturing of any machinists' bench vises for commercial inventory EXCEPT FOR the following type and sizes (inches):
- Stationary base, stationary jaw: 4, 4-1/2, 5, 6, and 8
Summary of the March 18, 1944 amendment: DO NOT HAVE A COPY OF THIS
Summary of what all this means:
Before September 7, 1943, there were no restrictions.
Between September 7, 1943 and January 4, 1944, there were restrictions, but they don’t seem very restrictive to me. You "vise guys" may see more sizes missing (and therefore, restricted from making and selling or storing) than me.
Between January 4, 1944 and October 6, 1944 the restrictions were severe. The US Government was basically taking all the vises they could get, except stationary base and jaw vises.
EDIT: Even though you guys don't know him, I want to credit a research colleague, Roger Milam of the UK, for help with the WPB Limitation Order L-216.
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PghJKB
Well-known member
Agreed! Clever approach, Todd. Gears are already turning for how that correlates with L-216 info. And I am wondering how it will fit with the contract info.
Second good laugh of the day!
Excellent! I was planning a trip to Rutgers University one day, where they have 1941 and 1942 on microform. Even though my search on 'Wilton Tool Mfg Co' did not show up in 1941, only in 1942, Volume 11, I want to double check.
Google unlocked The Tool Engineer
Here it is:
https://books.google.com/books?id=XZojAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
Several references to its one year warranty.
JKB
Outlawmws
Well-known member
Three (possibly 4, but...) ads all mentioning the 1 year warranty. That was the 1942 Vol 11, so Lugs finding confirmed for '42.
Google didn't have '41 JKB?
Google didn't have '41 JKB?
Outlawmws
Well-known member
More volumes on Google books (but not 1941..) - might save Lug some library trips...
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=editions:50qTb_CMJHQC&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiVk6HPpuPTAhUhqVQKHeXHDa0QmBYIKTAA&biw=1366&bih=662&dpr=1
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=editions:50qTb_CMJHQC&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiVk6HPpuPTAhUhqVQKHeXHDa0QmBYIKTAA&biw=1366&bih=662&dpr=1
PghJKB
Well-known member
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Thanks, JKB! February, March, and April 1942. I still plan to review the 1941 on microform - one of these days.
OP
drivesitfar
Well-known member
ALL: keep up the great work and i thought we'd get some idea that made sense if we can't find a 95+ year old owner or worker at Wilton that will post what he knows.
While you all are looking at patents do all the Wilton bullets have hollow jaw towers or when did they change or what models have and don't have them?
cheers
While you all are looking at patents do all the Wilton bullets have hollow jaw towers or when did they change or what models have and don't have them?
cheers
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
All,
While it would be nice to know the exact date that they started in 1941, I'm inclined to trust this snippet from a longer statement by Mr. Vogl in front of the Select Committee on Small Business, United States Senate, Eighty-fifth Congress, first session (1957), on the impact of federal taxation on small business, that it was, indeed, 1941, as the company's website says.
“I am Hugh W. Vogl, president of the Wilton Tool Manufacturing Co. We are a small, family-owned concern. We do about $2 million worth of annual business, and have over 100 employees. We started out in 1941 when the priority system was already in existence. I was forced by such circumstances, and by lack of ...”
Hearings, Volume I, US Government Printing Office, 1957
https://books.google.com/books?id=K...ved=0ahUKEwioq-qHqeXTAhVFbSYKHYm0DckQ6AEIJjAB
https://books.google.com/books?id=Z...ved=0ahUKEwioq-qHqeXTAhVFbSYKHYm0DckQ6AEIKjAC
JKB,
I don't know how to request Google to "unlock" a book, otherwise I would do so myself. Perhaps you could make the request and share the link again. I am eager to read the rest of his statement to see if it provides any more insight into their first year of business.
While it would be nice to know the exact date that they started in 1941, I'm inclined to trust this snippet from a longer statement by Mr. Vogl in front of the Select Committee on Small Business, United States Senate, Eighty-fifth Congress, first session (1957), on the impact of federal taxation on small business, that it was, indeed, 1941, as the company's website says.
“I am Hugh W. Vogl, president of the Wilton Tool Manufacturing Co. We are a small, family-owned concern. We do about $2 million worth of annual business, and have over 100 employees. We started out in 1941 when the priority system was already in existence. I was forced by such circumstances, and by lack of ...”
Hearings, Volume I, US Government Printing Office, 1957
https://books.google.com/books?id=K...ved=0ahUKEwioq-qHqeXTAhVFbSYKHYm0DckQ6AEIJjAB
https://books.google.com/books?id=Z...ved=0ahUKEwioq-qHqeXTAhVFbSYKHYm0DckQ6AEIKjAC
JKB,
I don't know how to request Google to "unlock" a book, otherwise I would do so myself. Perhaps you could make the request and share the link again. I am eager to read the rest of his statement to see if it provides any more insight into their first year of business.
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va.grouseman
Well-known member
Good stuff Lugnuts.---If all you fellows keep digging, you're bound to strike gold.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
After further thought, this qualification - "...when the priority system was already in existence..." - is extremely helpful in refining the date.
As I mentioned upthread, and in other threads when the subject comes up, I have done an extensive amount of research into the War Production Board and its predecessor, the Office of Emergency Management (effectively, only a name change in January 1942, a month after the "Emergency" officially became a war for the U.S.), pertaining mainly to alloy restrictions and commercial tool sales limitations.
The "priority system" Mr. Vogl is referring to was established on August 28, 1941, pursuant to EO 8875, when the Office of Production Management within the Office of Emergency Management established the Supply Priorities Allocation Board, which was responsible for coordinating the supply and allocation of defense-related materials and commodities.
Since he was not in business before August 28, 1941, it means he applied for the patent (on August 1, 1941) first, before he went into production, as I and several others before me suspected.
EDIT: Patent to production to ads for a precision vise with a 1-year guarantee within 6 months is very impressive. But as Drives suspected, and I noted, and as JKB elaborated on, he had quite a technical and strategic head start in the industry with his former position for York.
As I mentioned upthread, and in other threads when the subject comes up, I have done an extensive amount of research into the War Production Board and its predecessor, the Office of Emergency Management (effectively, only a name change in January 1942, a month after the "Emergency" officially became a war for the U.S.), pertaining mainly to alloy restrictions and commercial tool sales limitations.
The "priority system" Mr. Vogl is referring to was established on August 28, 1941, pursuant to EO 8875, when the Office of Production Management within the Office of Emergency Management established the Supply Priorities Allocation Board, which was responsible for coordinating the supply and allocation of defense-related materials and commodities.
Since he was not in business before August 28, 1941, it means he applied for the patent (on August 1, 1941) first, before he went into production, as I and several others before me suspected.
EDIT: Patent to production to ads for a precision vise with a 1-year guarantee within 6 months is very impressive. But as Drives suspected, and I noted, and as JKB elaborated on, he had quite a technical and strategic head start in the industry with his former position for York.
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