No cost Solar; Anyone tried it?

[bren5270]

So I know obviously that nothing is ever free, but has anyone out there tried one of these "No Cost Solar" programs? Im curious if its a complete scam or if theres any kind of legitimacy to it.

I hear somewhere that they were true but they only reduce your bill like 10% when you do the free option ... but 10% seems better than nothing right?

Anyone out there have any experience with these?

 

[ForceFed70]

I've seen a couple of these schemes. Which type are you referring to?

The 2 I've seen are:
1) Setup where they install and put you on a financing plan. You pay monthtly for the panels/system, but you're supposed to be saving as much or more on on your monthly energy bills. The net effect is supposed to be "no cost". I'm skeptical.
2) Setup where they install a panel system on your property and sell the power back to the grid. On months where they make a little extra, that extra goes to you as payment for letting them use your property.

Both schemes I'm very wary of and would want to talk to a few other customers in my area before I'd consider them. They're likely overselling it.

 

[DCarr2]

These types of programs, you need an attorney to go over the contract. I am very serious here.

There have been situations where people sign up for this, and the ownership of the panels doesnt transfer to you for a very long time, so while you get the benefit of cheap electric, the ownership of the panels is their stuff.

Need a new roof? needs to be an approved installer, approved shingle by them.

Selling yourhouse? THAT can get ugly

House falls into an estate? Yikes!

nothing is 'free' and no company is going to place $50K worth of equipment on your house for free, and then let you reap all the rewards.

Local ordinances come into play, special equipment needs to be attached to the house wiring ect... its very involved.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

NEVER put any solar on a roof, period.

If you can do a land based farm, only do it if you lay out $0, they just use your land and you get free or discounted power. They install, maintain, service, replace, inspect (etc.) the panels.
Very many of the "free" residential solar companies dump the stuff on your roof, take your money or leech from you for a couple years and then disappear.

Tommy

 

[Toothaker]

I have a neighbor who sells solar power equipment. I think he's a standup guy. He was telling me just the other day how he's dealing with other companies that over-sell the benefits, power production and efficiencies, lifespan, etc. of the technology they are selling. For example, selling a panel as a 300W panel, when in fact it is going to much less - even when new and pointed directly at the sun. Then factor in the aging process, dirt, cloudy days, short days in winter, indirect aiming due to time of day and the season - the list goes on and on - the actual power produced by that 300W panel might be just 80% of that, and will decline with age.

Then layer on the "free solar" scam - which is all based on those overly optimistic numbers - and you will be sorely disappointed. It ain't gonna be free.

And remember, you will buy your electricity at retail, and sell them your excess power at wholesale rates.

I think every new industry get this sort of action. There were a lot of quick buck, shyster, con-artist operators in railroading in the 1800's and in the DotCom bubble of 2000 and everything in between. Now it's solar.

 

[6768rogues]

The companies that make and sell electricity for a living don't use solar unless it is heavily subsidized. I have no reason to think that I could make money at it. My brother in law just spent over $25k for solar. That would pay my electric bill for considerably more than 10 years. Natural gas is cheap and plentiful and electricity can be made with it cheaply.

 

[Bretny]

I looked into the no cost solar companys. Basicly your banking on the fact that energy costs will go up and thats the only real benefit. Need a new roof or to sell your house you loose. I was looking at 25-30yr lease systems. There just not practical here in the northeast with our 4.2hr of average useable sun. Solar in general where i am just isnt practical as i dont get enough sun. Southeast or south west you can get 2x as much as here.

 

[Bretny]

I have a neighbor who sells solar power equipment. I think he's a standup guy. He was telling me just the other day how he's dealing with other companies that over-sell the benefits, power production and efficiencies, lifespan, etc. of the technology they are selling. For example, selling a panel as a 300W panel, when in fact it is going to much less - even when new and pointed directly at the sun. Then factor in the aging process, dirt, cloudy days, short days in winter, indirect aiming due to time of day and the season - the list goes on and on - the actual power produced by that 300W panel might be just 80% of that, and will decline with age.

Then layer on the "free solar" scam - which is all based on those overly optimistic numbers - and you will be sorely disappointed. It ain't gonna be free.

And remember, you will buy your electricity at retail, and sell them your excess power at wholesale rates.

I think every new industry get this sort of action. There were a lot of quick buck, shyster, con-artist operators in railroading in the 1800's and in the DotCom bubble of 2000 and everything in between. Now it's solar.

This is true for my local electric company also. And why you will never really make money.

 

[ForceFed70]

I have a neighbor who sells solar power equipment. I think he's a standup guy. He was telling me just the other day how he's dealing with other companies that over-sell the benefits, power production and efficiencies, lifespan, etc. of the technology they are selling. For example, selling a panel as a 300W panel, when in fact it is going to much less - even when new and pointed directly at the sun. Then factor in the aging process, dirt, cloudy days, short days in winter, indirect aiming due to time of day and the season - the list goes on and on - the actual power produced by that 300W panel might be just 80% of that, and will decline with age.

Not really the re-seller's fault. It's what the manufacturer sells them at, even the reputable manufacturers.

My experience has been exactly as your example. Brand new panel in perfect conditions of alignment, intensity of sun, clean, cool (panels loose efficiency if they get too hot) etc - and you'll get up to about 80% of the panel's rating.

Another way they stretch the truth is when they say "It'll even generate power when it's cloudy". Which is technically true but you'll be lucky to get 10% of the panel's rating when it's cloudy.

 

[Bretny]

One other thing to think about is how far solar has come in 15 years...now think how useless todays pannels will be in 15yrs. If they can find a way to produce better batterys in 15 yrs we might be seing a major decline in power companys.

 

[WhiffySpark]

One other thing to think about is how far solar has come in 15 years...now think how useless todays pannels will be in 15yrs. If they can find a way to produce better batterys in 15 yrs we might be seing a major decline in power companys.

Mr musk is working on that. He's working on some crazy stuff

 

[Git]

I have a neighbor who sells solar power equipment. I think he's a standup guy. He was telling me just the other day how he's dealing with other companies that over-sell the benefits, power production and efficiencies, lifespan, etc. of the technology they are selling. For example, selling a panel as a 300W panel, when in fact it is going to much less - even when new and pointed directly at the sun. Then factor in the aging process, dirt, cloudy days, short days in winter, indirect aiming due to time of day and the season - the list goes on and on - the actual power produced by that 300W panel might be just 80% of that, and will decline with age.

Then layer on the "free solar" scam - which is all based on those overly optimistic numbers - and you will be sorely disappointed. It ain't gonna be free.

And remember, you will buy your electricity at retail, and sell them your excess power at wholesale rates.

I think every new industry get this sort of action. There were a lot of quick buck, shyster, con-artist operators in railroading in the 1800's and in the DotCom bubble of 2000 and everything in between. Now it's solar.

When it comes to solar panels you have the "Nameplate Rating" (Standard Test Condition) - the amount the Manufacturer says that panel will produce

Then you have the 'Real World' test conditions - PVUSA rating or PTC for short. You can go to this website and download the results of their testing and look up a particular panel:

http://www.gosolarcalifornia.ca.gov/equipment/pv_modules.php

For example, I have LG 320N1C-G4 panels. They are rated for 320 watts and will degrade at the rate of .6% per year and they are warrantied for 12 years. The PTC rating of this panel is 298.7 watts or about 93% of the nameplate rating.

If you really want to get into it, there are websites like PVWatts that will run a simulation, based on the weather in your area, the slope and orientation of your roof, etc. BUT - most decent solar companies should be doing the same thing with their own software.

http://pvwatts.nrel.gov/


Most people could care less about all these numbers, panel ratings, etc - all that really matters is how much electricity will the system produce on an annual basis?

It has been my experience that better quality installers will also have a 'production' warranty. They will sell you a system that at a minimum will produce X amount of kWh per year or they will either fix the system so that it does or pay for the shortfall in kWh.

I wouldn't recommend leasing or going through one of the companies like Solar City, but if you buy the system, you should get a pretty good return on your money - of course depending on your location, roof orientation, etc

My system was installed just over a year ago and the target was 18,500 kWh annually. It actually made over 21,000 kWh

 

[Jazz1]

Big issue will be disposing of all these panels when the time comes. Various # on how long before they lose efficiency.

 

[Ole Slewfoot]

The eclipse will put you under, check out free coal instead.

 

[teddlett]

I live up in the woods, one look at my house on Google earth and they say no. The guys who wander the isles at Home Depot see me coming and hide now.

I'm personally more interested working on is a battery bank. Now that our Power Co. Is going to push us on to a "time of day" rate plan, charge up at night and run off the batteries in the afternoon.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

 

[1932highboy]

Green Mountain energy,which isn't available everywhere, pays 100% retail rate what you put back to the grid. So far this year they owe me $400 in credits . I have a 7KW system on my roof. My house is over 2,000 SqFt.

 

[Stuff]

A friend went with SolarCity and their "free" 30 year lease deal last year. Monthly bills are now around 10% higher than before. She is still happy as likes being green and a tech leader.

 

[soob]

Residential rooftop solar is basically a scam to milk government subsidies. It's hugely inconvenient and inefficient. If you want to help the 'urf buy more insulation.

 

[dogdog]

Scams.... don't go for it.

 

[ForceFed70]

I'm personally more interested working on is a battery bank. Now that our Power Co. Is going to push us on to a "time of day" rate plan, charge up at night and run off the batteries in the afternoon.

Make sure you do the math including cost of replacing batteries, panels, real world power generation projections, etc.

I doubt you'll find that adding your own solar system with battery bank is cheaper than paying the POCO unless they charge much higher than average rates.

Some setups in the right part of the country (lots of sun, high cost of power) can just barely pay for themselves when used as a grid-tie system. Have not seen one that pays for itself when totally off grid.

 

[jacob_coulter]

A lot of these plans assume the subsidies will never be phased out. When that money stops, my guess is the homeowner will be footing the difference.

Are we still going to be throwing taxpayer dollars at solar installation 30 years from now?

In my state, they've already rolled quite a bid of the subsidies like net metering back as too many people were using it and it was going to drive rates through the roof for people who don't use solar.

 

[soob]

I saw this a while back. Ever wonder why, even with the huge government subsidies and mandates requiring power companies to pay for it, the deals look so bad to the homeowner that no one would consider rooftop solar unless they were doing it for the perceived ecological benefit (or as a status symbol?).

Residential solar is a racket.

 

[1932highboy]

I have solar on my roof. I no longer have electric bills. My payback will less then 6 years. Some scam.

 

[ForceFed70]

I have solar on my roof. I no longer have electric bills. My payback will less then 6 years. Some scam.

Must have come with a great subsidy and a low install cost.

I pay $930/year for power (gas heat and hot water). For a solar system to pay itself off in less than 6 years I'd need to have the whole install done for $5500 or less.

When I looked into costs - It was somewhere around $25,000-$30,000 to install an array large enough to offset our usage. Even with a subsidy, I was looking at an ROI of MAYBE 15 years. Right about the same time all of the panels would need to be replaced.

 

[WhiffySpark]

Must have come with a great subsidy and a low install cost.

I pay $930/year for power (gas heat and hot water). For a solar system to pay itself off in less than 6 years I'd need to have the whole install done for $5500 or less.

When I looked into costs - It was somewhere around $25,000-$30,000 to install an array large enough to offset our usage. Even with a subsidy, I was looking at an ROI of MAYBE 15 years. Right about the same time all of the panels would need to be replaced.

Holy ****. Our electric bill is never less than $650 a month

 

[1932highboy]

7KW system, total cost $21K. My out of pocket $9K. I can't imagine a $650 electric bill. Is your house 10,000 SQFT?

 

[manwithtools]

7KW system, total cost $21K. My out of pocket $9K. I can't imagine a $650 electric bill. Is your house 10,000 SQFT?

We need more info, where are you located? That will be helpful for further postings we hope you make. Please add it to your profile.

You say you no longer have an electric bill? When was system installed, what is your current kWh cost and what are you selling your power for (kWh sell price)? Do you have a guaranteed rate contract? Is it with your utility or a solar re-seller? How long is it good for?

$21k system with $9k out of pocket - did you take the tax credit and is that your net out of pocket? Or is that what you paid a re-seller to install the system? How many kw is your system?

 

[teddlett]

Oh I wasn't going to get solar panels, just charge up off the grid at night then at what ever time they kick to the higher rate flip to the battery bank. I know that it's not cheeper, but so long as it's not way more expensive I'd rather not reward PG&E for forcing me to switch rate plans.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

 

[1932highboy]

We need more info, where are you located? That will be helpful for further postings we hope you make. Please add it to your profile.-Done-north Texas

You say you no longer have an electric bill? When was system installed, what is your current kWh cost and what are you selling your power for (kWh sell price)? Do you have a guaranteed rate contract? Is it with your utility or a solar re-seller? How long is it good for?-2014 system installed,mid year. 2015 my total bill for year was $50. 2016 my electrical provider owed me. Current cost per KWH is $0.116. Selling it back the same rate. Green Mountain is the provider, they are not available everywhere. They buy back every KWH you send to the grid that you don't use. In the winter months I build credits, in the summer I eat into the credits. But, I come out ahead because I make a lot of electricity and I conserve a lot. The rate is good for two years.

$21k system with $9k out of pocket - did you take the tax credit and is that your net out of pocket? Or is that what you paid a re-seller to install the system? How many kw is your system?

I took the 30% credit and my electrical service,Oncor had rebate which I used.
$9K is all I paid after those two items.
My system is 28 panels,generating 7KW.

 

[Git]

The 30% Federal Solar Tax credit has been extended to 2021. That is 30% off the top back in your pocket

California now is pushing battery storage - they have a new program > Self-Generation Incentive Program (SGIP)

http://news.energysage.com/california-energy-storage-incentives-sgip-explained/

So I can get a Tesla PowerWall 2.0 (14kW Battery) installed for my system for about $12.5K. The SGIP rebate is about $7k and I *think* I would still qualify for the 30% Federal Tax rebate, but I have to look into further

So roughly $5k for the Solar Wall which when you compare it to a whole house standby generator isn't really that bad. Still thinking about it....

 

[Bretny]

I have solar on my roof. I no longer have electric bills. My payback will less then 6 years. Some scam.

Your in TX. You prob get 6hrs of useable sun? And not many cloudy days. Not everyones climate is like that.
How much did the system cost you?

Currently in NY we are paying .17cents a KW. With 4hrs of useable sun a day average it would take quite a long time to pay for its self. Not including equipment failure or maintenance.

 

[WhiffySpark]

7kw system, total cost $21k. My out of pocket $9k. I can't imagine a $650 electric bill. Is your house 10,000 sqft?

4200

 

[Git]

Residential solar is a racket.

Do you have any actual experience with Solar or did you just read something on the internet....

In July, we completed our first year with Solar and had our "True Up". That is when you settle up, if you used more electricity than you generated, you have to pay them or if you use less, they will pay you (or you can roll it over)

Here is my July bill - we had a $443 credit which we just rolled over. Our system generated about 21,500 kWh for the year

If I take that number and multiply it by the CHEAPEST rate in my area, which is 16¢ per kWh (tiered usage, the more you use the more it cost) that is about $3,450 a year MINIMUM.

I paid a premium price for my install - moved roof vents and plumbing stacks. All the conduit was run through the attic, etc. Even then, the system will have paid for itself in a little over 8 years. The panels are warrantied for 12 and should last for 20 years

Solar is not a racket, and I certainly didn't do it to 'go green' - but it does depend on where you live, etc

ps - our house if 4,000 sq ft

 

[manwithtools]

warrantied for 12 and should last for 20 years

Solar is not a racket, and I certainly didn't do it to 'go green' - but it does depend on where you live, etc

Depends entirely on where you live and what the lobbyists have manged to promote into legislation in terms of incentives. The house of cards will eventually come tumbling down, especially when your utility charges you a transmission fee - a very large one to offset the earlier negative deals they signed up too. If you agreed to a PPA, it will be thrown out when the lawyers and courts get a hold of it. Particularly if they can prove it will bankrupt a public utility....

These deals do not make any sense for a utilities prospective, they can produce the power much cheaper from their own grid tied solar installations if they choose to.

 

[Git]

It's true that Nevada did something extremely stupid last year with their Net Metering program and no doubt due to political lobbying by the electrical utilities. BUT, it seems they have seen the light and are trying to correct the situation

In California - although the big electrical utilities like SCE may be called a 'public utility' they are actually "investor owned'.

Cooperative utilities are owned by the customers they serve. They are usually found in rural areas. Publicly owned utilities are non-profit. Private utilities, also called investor-owned utilities, are owned by investors and operate for profit, often referred to as a rate of return.

I am pretty sure the State is not going to be bailing out a private company and my Net Metering Agreement is good with them for 20 years...

Regarding production - California can't keep up with demand. They have several programs to cut down on electrical usage during high demand periods - like extremely hot days. For example, one of their programs they will attach a device to your air conditioner that will allow them to send a signal to it and turn it off for a couple of hours, reducing demand. In return, you get a credit for a couple of hundred dollars each year. At least they have moved away from the 'rolling blackouts' we used to have

Remember - California is full of 'green lovers' and they forced San Clemente Nuclear Power Plant to be shut down early

 

[manwithtools]

I am pretty sure the State is not going to be bailing out a private company and my Net Metering Agreement is good with them for 20 years...

Let's see how that plays out in the next few years. I'd venture that Tesla is one of many that might see public bailouts in the future. A public utility would not be a surprise either.

 

[Bretny]

Do you have any actual experience with Solar or did you just read something on the internet....

In July, we completed our first year with Solar and had our "True Up". That is when you settle up, if you used more electricity than you generated, you have to pay them or if you use less, they will pay you (or you can roll it over)

Here is my July bill - we had a $443 credit which we just rolled over. Our system generated about 21,500 kWh for the year

If I take that number and multiply it by the CHEAPEST rate in my area, which is 16¢ per kWh (tiered usage, the more you use the more it cost) that is about $3,450 a year MINIMUM.

I paid a premium price for my install - moved roof vents and plumbing stacks. All the conduit was run through the attic, etc. Even then, the system will have paid for itself in a little over 8 years. The panels are warrantied for 12 and should last for 20 years

Solar is not a racket, and I certainly didn't do it to 'go green' - but it does depend on where you live, etc

ps - our house if 4,000 sq ft

.16c KW...is that retail or wholesale?

 

[PelicanPines]

Put it this way... One of my friends worked as an Accountant for a group of companies ... one of which was a Lease Solar dealer/installer...

He didn't have panels put on his house...

 

[Git]

.16c KW...is that retail or wholesale?

Retail

Here is the current tier rate. A normal household gets into Tier 2 pretty easy and during the summer Tier 3 (31¢ KWh)

some more info on net metering
http://news.energysage.com/net-metering-2-0-in-california-everything-you-need-to-know/

 

[ForceFed70]

Holy ****. Our electric bill is never less than $650 a month

Ouch! I'm in Canada so cooling costs are low. Heating is done with gas.

My average electrical bill is $155 every 2 months. That low electrical requirement also ment I didn't need a huge solar array.