Im trying to figure out what you mean and i hope I answer this correctly without making myself look stupid but alot of vises were casted like that. The swivel base belongs to that vise. Im guessing the vise may have been sold either way. With or without a swivel base. The company could easily slap a swivel base onto a non swivel vise so they could sell it for more money or just sell the base separately as an accessory.
The VISES of Garage Journal
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Im trying to figure out what you mean and i hope I answer this correctly without making myself look stupid but alot of vises were casted like that. The swivel base belongs to that vise. Im guessing the vise may have been sold either way. With or without a swivel base. The company could easily slap a swivel base onto a non swivel vise so they could sell it for more money or just sell the base separately as an accessory.
gman007
Well-known member
Dear vise experts
This might be a loaded question and opinions might vary but I am hoping there is a consensus on whether trading a Prentiss Bull Dog 524 for a Morgan Chicago 140 (or "Vice"
versa) both of which are in excellent shape is a reasonable and equitable trade?
Thx much
007
This might be a loaded question and opinions might vary but I am hoping there is a consensus on whether trading a Prentiss Bull Dog 524 for a Morgan Chicago 140 (or "Vice"
versa) both of which are in excellent shape is a reasonable and equitable trade?Thx much
007
Dear vise experts
This might be a loaded question and opinions might vary but I am hoping there is a consensus on whether trading a Prentiss Bull Dog 524 for a Morgan Chicago 140 (or "Vice"
Thx much
007
This is just my personal preference. Trade off the bull dog for the Morgan. Every bull dog I see is either cracked or broken in some way. I've seen too many with cracked slides and various broken pieces throughout the vise. I really think Prentiss was a poor excuse for an American made vise. They had to of used cheap castings or something. There is just too many cracked slides and various broken pieces being seen on these vises for it to be a coincidence. Just my opinion.
You sure about that?
The Wilton 600S (6" jaw, swivel base) I just posted weighs 155lbs. A Wilton C3 (6" jaws, pipe jaws, swivel base) weighs 200lbs.
To be fair, Wiltons aren't all that heavy for their jaw width....some brands are heavier.
A Rock Island 577 weighs right at 150lbs and the regularly sells for hundreds of dollars....like $400 easily.
Columbians are generally on the light side for the jaw size.
Most vintage 5" vises do weigh around 100lbs give or take. Stepping up to 6" means another 50lbs or more.
Here's a 5" Wilton bullet on the left and 6" on the right....big difference.
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gman007
Well-known member
mrcrawfish
Member
Okay. Fair enough. All I know is that I paid under $100 for my Columbian and I've seen many vises of similar sizes and ages for under $100.
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Shiftless
Well-known member
007
Prentiss has a lot of cool design features that may or may not appeal to some people. I only have 2 in my little collection but neither of them have cracked slides. They ARE notorious for cracks there. Depends on how they are used.
Are you looking for a user or a display vise?
The Morgan is more heavy duty.
Aesthetics aside, if the 2 vises are both in equally good condition, my nod would go toward the Morgan.
Here is a crappy photo of a Morgan Chicago 40 I will be picking up next weekend.
Looks to be a solid example worthy of restoration. No swivel though.
Prentiss has a lot of cool design features that may or may not appeal to some people. I only have 2 in my little collection but neither of them have cracked slides. They ARE notorious for cracks there. Depends on how they are used.
Are you looking for a user or a display vise?
The Morgan is more heavy duty.
Aesthetics aside, if the 2 vises are both in equally good condition, my nod would go toward the Morgan.
Here is a crappy photo of a Morgan Chicago 40 I will be picking up next weekend.
Looks to be a solid example worthy of restoration. No swivel though.
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Agreed with Shiftless. I should have included this in my previous comment. For as much as I think Prentiss is a low quality vise, the lines and the look of their vises are very very good. Too bad they can look so good but break so easily
Shiftless
Well-known member
Thanks Bcom...
Do many of us have Prentiss vises as users? My 2 sit on shelves. My only user right now is a Wilton C1 which replaced a Wilton 500N.
Do many of us have Prentiss vises as users? My 2 sit on shelves. My only user right now is a Wilton C1 which replaced a Wilton 500N.
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gman007
Well-known member
Shift
Thank you for the comment and quick response. In my case it is a display vise.
I thought I had seen such concerns regarding Prentiss being too brittle raised here before but was not sure. Overall based on BCOM and your comments, it seems Morgan is superior to Prentiss as far as working vise is concerned. So I will try a trade
Regards
007
Shiftless
Well-known member
007:
Your self control is to be commended for not merely keeping the Prentiss and acquiring the Morgan to add to your collection. Most of us cannot part with any of our old vises and watch helplessly as our one or two vises somehow multiply into 10 and then 20 and then...
(full disclosure...I have about 40 but 4 more are coming in next weekend)
Your self control is to be commended for not merely keeping the Prentiss and acquiring the Morgan to add to your collection. Most of us cannot part with any of our old vises and watch helplessly as our one or two vises somehow multiply into 10 and then 20 and then...
(full disclosure...I have about 40 but 4 more are coming in next weekend)
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Oregon rock crusher
Well-known member
I do still subject this 6" Prentiss 22 to full duty in my fab shop. It survived for many years on the back of a service truck surrounded by Bubbas so it wasn't exactly dainty. I do have a couple others that are broken though. I know they are not near the strongest vises I have but still pretty tough....Ed.
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gman007
Well-known member
damnesia
What is the model of the Parker (can not tell from the photo) that should help to tell.
I have only three "older" Parkers (204, 955 and 974) so I am no Parker expert (or vise expert period) but based on the shape of the vise (even though it is very crusty) and cylindrical screw knob, the simple rectangular Garter, etc, this looks like might be a later Union Parker vise and IMO it seems the base of vise housing (with stationary ear lob in front) and swivel base of your vise matches the photo's that I have pasted below.
So Bcom might be on to something regarding this vise being sold both as stationary and swivel base vise
regards
007
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I've only had a few Prentiss, but I'm not so sure it's about being brittle as being too thin. The few I've had obviously had slides that weren't nearly as thick (top to bottom) where the typical cracks happen.
I have two Reed 105s with cracked slides, and they're not super thin. People simply used them as a hammering surface and they failed. With Prentiss having thinner slides it probably didn't take much to crack them.
meatsis
Well-known member
Living in NY I come across Prentiss vises all the time. They are excellent vises, but unfortunately there's a lot of gorillas out there that don't understand that a vise is meant to be used as a vise. And not an anvil. I've had them in sizes ranging from 3" all the way up to 7". All with no cracks.
Me personally would take a clean Prentiss over a Morgan.
Me personally would take a clean Prentiss over a Morgan.
You just reminded me that I should have picked up a Rock Island 577 that popped up "locally" on CL for $125, but it was quite a drive. I'll have to be more vigilant and move fast next time.
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6692286&postcount=5060
KMScott
Well-known member
It is my opinion when Prentiss and Reeds are cast the molten material meets at the center of the square slider causing what we call in Plastic Injection Molding a knit line. The material has a cold spot and does not mix like it should. That is why in my opinion you see splits in this area, pounding on it only helps in releasing the stresses. The Parker split because the steel bars were cast in to close to the top surface. Rileysan can comment on this because this is what he does. In Plastic Injection Molding the gate location ( Where the mold is filled) is very important because of this issue.
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Prentiss vise co is definitely my favorite vise mfg. Sure you see a lot with slide cracks but that's not really to bad of a repair and I rarely see them completely broke apart as compared to some other brands think bullets. I also say how few pre 1930 patent Parker vises you find without a jaw insert brazed on or with a slide support intact and not broken. So I think we can all agree that any vise can be broken and damaged with enough use and hammer blows.
Just a little prentiss pride 1 3/4in jaws.
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Just a little prentiss pride 1 3/4in jaws.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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meatsis
Well-known member
Prentiss vise co is definitely my favorite vise mfg. Sure you see a lot with slide cracks but that's not really to bad of a repair and I rarely see them completely broke apart as compared to some other brands think bullets. I also say how few pre 1930 patent Parker vises you find without a jaw insert brazed on or with a slide support intact and not broken. So I think we can all agree that any vise can be broken and damaged with enough use and hammer blows.
Just a little prentiss pride 1 3/4in jaws.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'll add to the Prentiss pride. Here's a beautiful example. A Prentiss 97. Has 7" jaws. Weighs 240 lbs. The second one is a Prentiss 22. 6" swivel jaw. I actually have a bunch of swivel jaw Prentiss vises. None of which have any cracks or damage.
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gman007
Well-known member
Reverend Scott
Sir thank you so much for the as per usual fantastic education.
Oregon rock crusher, Gman, meat,rusty
Thank you all for the great input.
Based on all the great information, it looks like instead of trading I will try to buy one of the two Morgan 140s (a friend recently acquired two of them within a span of a day and both are greats shape-lucky dog)
Shift
Sorry to disappoint you but it seems my "self control" might no longer be "commended"
regards
007
Unruh
Well-known member
Larin is a Chinese brand name usually found in tractor supply farm stores. It's a basic vise and good for light/basic use in a garage.
trijeff
Well-known member
Looks like the static jaw support on that Larin is gone ...
Rileysan
Well-known member
My employer doesn't cast anything in gray iron - we cast chrome iron, steel, and manganese alloy steel. I am not a metallurgist (though I work with, and share my office with one), I am a foundry sand & molding expert.
What I know about gray iron is taken from AFS (American Foundry Society) cast metal defects classes I have taken over the years so can only speculate why that area of a slide is has a tendency to crack.
The idea of a knit line isn't a bad thought. In metal casting, we would call it a fold. Very much like taffy being gently folded together, but not mixing.
Gray iron is "very fluid" compared to other ferrous alloys, and can be poured well above freezing temperature without affecting the grain structure. Gray iron also remains "liquidus" longer than any other ferrous alloy and is notorious for finding weak spots in a mold and running out before it freezes.
The most likely orientation of the dynamic jaw in a mold would be exactly as it sits assembled on your bench, meaning the top of the dynamic jaw would be the last spot to receive metal since molds are designed to be filled from the bottom up.
Here's a common design: Pouring cup on top. Sprue fills a runner that feeds gates into the part being poured.
If the liquid were freezing off too soon, the top of the jaw would be incomplete or full of voids. All this is to basically say that it is highly unlikely for a knit line to take place.
I think there are two possible things that could contribute to this problem. The first takes place in the the hollow of the slide.
Dynamic jaws and slides are not cast as a solid piece, then machined. The void in the center of a slide comes from a sand "core" that is placed in the mold. A core is used to reduce the amount of metal needed to fill a mold and to reduce the amount of machining that is needed to finish a product. This is called "yield" - the ratio between the weight of metal melted vs the weight of the finished product. It is a very important cost saving metric.
One of the most common casting defects within a casting happens when a core is made from inferior materials, the sand recipe is mixed incorrectly, or both.
All foundry sand will experience "thermal expansion". Silica sand, the most commonly used foundry sand, can expand up to 2% when heated. To counteract thermal expansion, additives are mixed in with the sand that will burn off when the molten metal is added to the mold - allowing the core sand to expand without fracturing the casting. If the ratio is wrong (it's easy to do with automated mixing systems), the end result will look something like this picture of Chris Farley.
Knowing what goes into carbon testing of molding sand, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if this was the culprit. In fact, I would bet on it. The technology used to test for carbonaceous material in sand has changed dramatically in the past 20 years (meaning: it's a hell of a lot easier than is used to be). Thermal expansion of a core could easily create micro-fractures in the slide which would be extremely difficult to detect. This scenario seems the most plausible to me.
The other potential issue has to do with the alloy content of the metal, but since I'm not a metallurgist, I can't talk intelligently about the topic, so I'll leave that alone.
Hope this sheds some light on the topic!
Brian
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damnesia
Well-known member
Wow I'm batting 0 for 2 for vise bases lately. This is a Union Parker vise, and everything seems to be well made and pretty heavy duty, but the base looks like ****. It's hard to believe that they would sell a vise with a swivel base that doesn't fit base of the vise. It really seems like this base was not originally part of this vise. I suppose I can see including a swivel base on a vise that has a non-swivel base cast into it, but the circumferences are different sizes.
KMScott
Well-known member
Brian, first thanks for the detailed time it took to write this response. I learned something today. The coring for the screw sounds like the culprit. Gating the bottom of the long dynamic sure brings up other questions but I will save that for researching or another day. Thanks again. Kevin
va.grouseman
Well-known member
Damnesia, your vise is a Union Parker but it appears that it's swivel base is a donor base, as you can see in these pics from Google.---The bases all seem to be flush in size to the vise's base.---I do agree with Bcom in that your vise as well as many other brands and models were cast so they could be sold as swivel or stationary based, depending on the order.---There is usually a center threaded hole in the bottom of the vise that is useless to a stationary vise.---This allows for the addition of a swivel base if desired.---Morgans still come this way.
CLICK THIS GOOGLE LINK and see what you think.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Par...=z2CwWY2wN4uU0gKNuo2wCQ#imgrc=jrZ5enNP4tpnWM:
FMC1959
Well-known member
McCraw, first thing, you should post your location under your screen name, when making comments about what vises go for in your area. For sure prices can vary from one region of the country to another.
Another thing to consider is that 4-5 inch vises are the most common size, are easily available, and usually carry entry level pricing. Although not an 8", 6" vises are becoming harder to come by. Keep an eye at all these vises you see, probably most are 4 & 5 inch. Yes, you could find a 6 or 8 cheap, but in general a 6 carries a bit of a premium and obvisiosly 8's evevn more
va.grouseman
Well-known member
Bcom, I have several Prentisses but they are all swivel jaw so I don't want to mess them up.---I like collecting Prentisses but for my beaters I have a #608 Columbian and a #6 Yost.---With those two, I'm covered, all the rest are just for looking.
I'm like the other fellows here, I find it hard to believe that typical daily use (pressing things between two jaws), would pop a crack in the back of the slide.---Some engineer is going to have to show me just how the stress in the press is transferred to the back of the slide.
va.grouseman
Well-known member
Kicked to the curb at $625.00.---But it don't hurt quite as bad when you know it's coming.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Emmert...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Emmert...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649
I took these pics at an auction in Montreal. I had hoped to buy it but somebody else wanted it more. I can not make out the model on my cell phone pic, maybe somebody here can see better. What was this Vanderman vise designed for?
I can not make out the model on my cell phone pic, maybe somebody here can see better. What was this Vanderman vise designed for?Attachments
va.grouseman
Well-known member
Meatsis, did you have new inserts put on the 97 and the 22, or were they in that good of condition when you got them?
va.grouseman
Well-known member
I took these pics at an auction in Montreal. I had hoped to buy it but somebody else wanted it more.
Pipe rigging.
meatsis
Well-known member
VA Those are the originals. On both.
AngryBeaver
Well-known member
I'd like to know why my Reed 2C, if such a brute, has about 10 cracks in the slide...5 on top, 2 on each side and I hadn't even gotten all the paint off.... lol
I love my little Prentiss. my 1903 patent parker 259x only had a couple chips in the slide at the back. you know the "anvil" part
, but no cracks.
Wiltons must all be junk since I got two that had busted static ledges...
I have a dented dynamic jaw Columbian. yes the jaw is hollow.. why was someone beating on it? and enough to dent it multiple times? broke the nut retaining pin after it wouldn't press U joints or something similar?
Why was my reed 104 busted on the support ledge and crack in the dynamic? I can only assume from downward strikes.
I think we all know why....any 250lb meat head with a big enough motivator can and will destroy anything. usually the bigger the meat head, and the bigger the swinging thing, the more collateral damage when strikes miss...
If any of the brands were junk... they wouldn't have lasted during there time, or a hundred years later or more.
I love my little Prentiss. my 1903 patent parker 259x only had a couple chips in the slide at the back. you know the "anvil" part
, but no cracks. Wiltons must all be junk since I got two that had busted static ledges...
I have a dented dynamic jaw Columbian. yes the jaw is hollow.. why was someone beating on it? and enough to dent it multiple times? broke the nut retaining pin after it wouldn't press U joints or something similar?
Why was my reed 104 busted on the support ledge and crack in the dynamic? I can only assume from downward strikes.
I think we all know why....any 250lb meat head with a big enough motivator can and will destroy anything. usually the bigger the meat head, and the bigger the swinging thing, the more collateral damage when strikes miss...
If any of the brands were junk... they wouldn't have lasted during there time, or a hundred years later or more.
va.grouseman
Well-known member
va.grouseman
Well-known member
Previously posted by AngryBeaver.
I have a dented dynamic jaw Columbian. yes the jaw is hollow
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fill her full of lead.
I have a dented dynamic jaw Columbian. yes the jaw is hollow
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Fill her full of lead.
Rileysan
Well-known member
I'd like to know why my Reed 2C, if such a brute, has about 10 cracks in the slide...5 on top, 2 on each side and I hadn't even gotten all the paint off.... lol
I love my little Prentiss. my 1903 patent parker 259x only had a couple chips in the slide at the back. you know the "anvil" part
Wiltons must all be junk since I got two that had busted static ledges...
I have a dented dynamic jaw Columbian. yes the jaw is hollow.. why was someone beating on it? and enough to dent it multiple times? broke the nut retaining pin after it wouldn't press U joints or something similar?
Why was my reed 104 busted on the support ledge and crack in the dynamic? I can only assume from downward strikes.
I think we all know why....any 250lb meat head with a big enough motivator can and will destroy anything. usually the bigger the meat head, and the bigger the swinging thing, the more collateral damage when strikes miss...
If any of the brands were junk... they wouldn't have lasted during there time, or a hundred years later or more.
So you're the one buying all the broken vises out there! To each his own, I guess!
Brian
Outlawmws
Well-known member
Bcom, I don't agree that is a Parker base, at least its not for that particular Parker. Parker did a much better job of aligning the base and vise. this pic clearly shows the base is smaller that the vise:
bagged89s10
Well-known member
I'm pretty sure that's not a Parker swivel base. The later model Parker still had a similar style swivel bases as the older ones, which use a brake shoe style locking mechanism.