Challenger socket set date and ID help

[Private Lugnutz]

Challenger's Warrior socket set date and ID help

This complete and unused Challenger 24-pc midget/junior socket set was too good to pass up even though it's not my collecting niche, but now I'm wondering when it was made. When were the molded plastic liners introduced? Is this 1950’s PENENS Challenger, early to mid 1960’s Pendleton Tool Industries Challenger, or late 1960’s Fleet Tool Company Challenger? Did the logo stay the same or change? Looks 60's to me, but that's just a hunch based on the color of the box.

EDIT: I'll post model numbers for everything later if that helps.

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[four.cycle]

I'm not even going to hazard a wild guess, other than to say:
I recognize the "helmet" logo from my childhood - my father carried Challenger in the early 1960s, and I remember that helmet.
Indestro was making the "MPI" (molded plastic insert) socket sets prior to 1964, so there's no reason that somebody else couldn't have been doing it back then too.
I've only got one set of Challenger - a 1/4" kit that's been cobbled together, but I don't have the box for it.
I'm probably not much help on this one.

Fabulous set there, Lugnutz.

 

[DadsTools]

Re: Challenger's Warrior socket set date and ID help

This complete and unused Challenger 24-pc midget/junior socket set was too good to pass up even though it's not my collecting niche, but now I'm wondering when it was made. When were the molded plastic liners introduced? Is this 1950’s PENENS Challenger, early to mid 1960’s Pendleton Tool Industries Challenger, or late 1960’s Fleet Tool Company Challenger? Did the logo stay the same or change? Looks 60's to me, but that's just a hunch based on the color of the box.

EDIT: I'll post model numbers for everything later if that helps.

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May sound crazy, Lugz, but some of my knowledge on plastics in products comes from my collecting/trading in vintage Christmas items! The earliest plastic inserts like these will be made from a firm, thin plastic with a sheen. The closest equivalent we have today that would also be universally recognized by most people is the material used in the plastic lids of those styrofoam take-out coffee cups. This insert would be oif a similar feel but a bit thinner. You wouldn't be able to penetrate the plastic with your fingernail, unlike the later blow-mold case plastics that are softer and 'gummier'. This kind of plastic begins showing up in consumer products around the late 1950s and continued into perhaps the early to mid-1970s. This plastic had a tendency to degrade and become brittle. This would be consistent with four.cycle's recollections.

I have an incomplete version of this identical set. I can tell you that I've found vintage FLEET sockets to fill in some of the missing sockets, and the Fleet are identical in every detail except for the markings (shape, height, broaching, chamfering, etc). Unfortunately, I have no context for the dating of these loose Fleet sockets. However, it might indicate this set came from the Fleet era.

As for the paint, it's been my experience that many green painted artifacts from the early 1960s were fond of the simulated 'hammered' green finish (not the 'crinkled' finishes which were generally earlier).

The movement toward cases made entirely of plastic in economy-priced items heated up around the late 1960s when US mfrs were being overwhelmed with cheap imports from Japan and at this time even Hong Kong.

Taking this all into consideration, my best guess would be late 1960s.

BTW, VERY NICE SET. To find an insert in this condition (if it's made from the kind of plastic I described earlier) is remarkable. You didn't mention what you paid so you can't yet a You **** yet.

Another note of interest is the recess in the insert for the longer extension. The extension in your set does not extend the entire length of the recess. The set I have did have the original extension for that recess, and it's long enough to fill almost the entire recess--it is 6-1/2" long and is correctly marked " -1266 CHALLENGER MFD. U.S.A. - " The stud, however, is more chamfered on the edges than yours is, which appears quite sharp-edged. Since your short extension also appears similarly edged, I'd say it's original. This leads me to suspect further cost-cutting measures while continuing to use the existing inserts. This leans my thinking toward a later interation, perhaps late-1960s to early-1970s when the 'Japanese invasion' really started kicking USA ****.

Hope this is useful.

 

[RM209]

Not sure about the date; with the plastic liner, I'm guessing very late 60's.
Nonetheless, that's a great find!

RM209

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I recognize the "helmet" logo from my childhood - my father carried Challenger in the early 1960s, and I remember that helmet.

Thanks, four.cycle! Very helpful.

The extension in your set does not extend the entire length of the recess...[ ]... Since your short extension also appears similarly edged, I'd say it's original. This leads me to suspect further cost-cutting measures while continuing to use the existing inserts.

That's what I was thinking. Thanks for the confirmation.

Not sure about the date; with the plastic liner, I'm guessing very late 60's.

Thanks, RM209.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

A Google search turned up this photo.

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It's obviously the same set. Mine is 100% complete, and my box and pieces are in NOS and near-mint condition. But his has the cool label!

I just wish he had shown a close-up of the label. It might include a date or a hint or two.

CONTENTS

3/8-inch drive Ratchet 1260
3/8-inch drive Extension, 3”, 1265 (with the family “*” mark on the indent)
3/8-inch drive Extension, 5-1/2”, 1266 (ditto)
3/8-inch drive Spark Plug Socket 1326
3/8-inch drive (female) to 1/4-inch drive (male) Ratchet Adapter 1253
Nine (9) 1/4-inch drive sockets, 3/16” to 1/2”, 1006 to 1016, including a 7/ (1007), 9/ (1009), and 11/32” (1011) if that helps with date
Eight (8) 3/8-inch drive sockets, 9/16” to 1”, 1218 to 1232

Here is a close-up of the ratchet, spinner, extension heads, adapter, and spark plug socket. The ratchet is the only piece that is marked like the logo brand name (“challenger”), with no capital letters, all the others are all caps (“CHALLENGER”).

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All the sockets are marked in two lines - with the model number, “CHALLENGER” brand, and the size, over “MFD. U.S.A.”….

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….except for these two (2) sockets, the 3/8-inch drive 1218 9/16” and the 1/4-inch drive 1010 5/16”, which are marked [PROTO]® U.S.A. !

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One more thing. There is an “X 9082” mark under the spark plug socket. That has nothing to do with the spark plug socket, and it almost looks like a set number to me.

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[DadsTools]

A Google search turned up this photo.

View media item 76430
It's obviously the same set. Mine is 100% complete, and my box and pieces are in NOS and near-mint condition. But his has the cool label!

I just wish he had shown a close-up. It might include a date or a hint or two.

CONTENTS

3/8-inch drive Ratchet 1260
3/8-inch drive Extension, 3”, 1265 (with the family “*” mark on the indent)
3/8-inch drive Extension, 5-1/2”, 1266 (ditto)
3/8-inch drive Spark Plug Socket 1326
3/8-inch drive (female) to 1/4-inch drive (male) Ratchet Adapter 1253
Nine (9) 1/4-inch drive sockets, 3/16” to 1/2”, 1006 to 1016, including a 7/ (1007), 9/ (1009), and 11/32” (1011) if that helps with date
Eight (8) 3/8-inch drive sockets, 9/16” to 1”, 1218 to 1232

Here is a close-up of the ratchet, spinner, extension heads, adapter, and spark plug socket. The ratchet is the only piece that is marked like the logo brand name (“challenger”), with no capital letters), all the others are all caps (“CHALLENGER”).

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All the sockets are marked in two lines - with the model number, “CHALLENGER” brand, and the size, over “MFD. U.S.A.”….

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….except for these two (2) sockets, the 3/8-inch drive 1218 9/16” and the 1/4-inch drive 1010 5/16”, which are marked [PROTO]® U.S.A. !

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One more thing. There is an “X 9082” mark under the spark plug socket. That has nothing to do with the spark plug socket, and it almost looks like a set number to me.

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Here's what I have. Mine did not come with the ratchet:

Where I am, there dwells what I call the Ratchet Angel of Death. Just like in Biblical Egypt, the Angel passes over the county I'm in just before the weekend and vaporizes all the ratchets. The only ones it leaves behind are those unmarked round-head Taiwan rats. It's true, I tell you!!! I must have 50 of them that found their way into every conceivable USA socket set.

My insert is warped from the Florida garage heat--you've heard me talk about that before (oh how I wish I could be back in NJ flea markets!). The top of the box is roached--again, from Florida garage heat & humidity.

My insert does NOT have the number molded in the bottom of the SP socket recess.

It looks as if the photo you found is not identical to yours--it appears as if the recess for the nut driver is reversed from yours. My insert recess for the driver is oriented the same as yours.

It doesn't seem that the PROTO-marked sockets are original. The bottom of the 1218 socket is not even chamfered like the others.

More in a moment....

 

[DadsTools]

I wanted to study the lid label a little closer. The stylized fonts used in the "Challenger" "Warrior" and "Combination" is quite telling. You would not have seen this kind of liberal 'flowery' font application in earlier product, especially switching from one font to the next. Again, I deal in lots of other vintage collectibles with printed boxes and so I have a bit of a feel for this. The "made in America" is a reactionary phrase to the oriental invasion, which would have been very unusual to see during the time when USA goods also dominated the entry level product niche. The calligraphic italic font for the price would have also been unusual at that time. I think the set in the photo is very late 1960s into perhaps first half of the 1970s. It is almost certainly later than the examples you and I have.

 

[Username already in use]

Beautiful set Lugz. That would have for sure followed me home as well. Nice pickup.
I think the Proto/Challenger sockets are original to the set. Likely transitional pieces. I have a couple of dual marked Penens/Challenger sockets, so they have a history of being dual marked. Makes sense to me.

I think the key to dating them is the * symbol that Penens used to put on their sockets. Initially, that looked a bit like a 4 leaf clover, then changed into more of a * like you see on the early Proto L.A. marked sockets, then the star was removed. Do your sockets have the star stamped into them? Maybe they only did that on the 1/2in drive sockets?

Here's some of my 1/2in drive sockets. From left to right:
Penens, Challenger/Penens, Challenger, and the Vlchek socket because I think they were made by Penens as well.

Thanks for posting the pic of the ratchet. I was wondering who made this Vlchek 3/8in drive ratchet. Looks to be a spot on match to your Challenger ratchet. Which makes sense after looking at the sockets side by side.

Again, nice set. There's probably a copyright date on the label from that other set. If that's an active auction, you could send the seller a message and see if you can get a better shot of the label.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

The bottom of the 1218 socket is not even chamfered like the others.

None of the socket drive openings on any of these sockets are chamfered. I think it's a discoloration from the machining or an optical illusion you're seeing.

 

[Username already in use]

Looks like they changed the branding shortly after your set was minted.
There is a CHALLENGER by PROTO 'warrior's set' on eBay right now. Looks like the same set. Almost all of the sockets are dual branded Proto/Challenger.

Oddly enough, the 3/8" socket in 1/4" drive looks like it's a P&C socket. Added after the fact? Error at the factory... who knows.

Link to the auction is HERE.

 

[Username already in use]

Found an ad online from Machanix Illustrated dated March 1966.
Your box appears to be slightly later. Notice the box in the ad has very rounded corners and two hasps to lock the lid. The spinner looks different as well. However, the ratchet and the extensions look spot on.

I'd put your's at late 60s. Just my $0.02.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Beautiful set Lugz. That would have for sure followed me home as well. Nice pickup.

Thanks. It was one of those brief moral dilemma purchases at my second flea market stop, the one on "Geezer" (real name "Leisure") Village road.

I think the Proto/Challenger sockets are original to the set. Likely transitional pieces. I have a couple of dual marked Penens/Challenger sockets, so they have a history of being dual marked.

Agreed. I've seen enough guys post mixed sets in much more questionably original condition for it to be more than feasible. And when I look at this set - box in perfect condition, nothing missing, everything except two sockets marked the same, 72-year old seller who said he never used it - I tend to think they came with it. I can't see this particular seller gong through the trouble of finding those two as replacements, or fibbing about it, and then selling it to me for peanuts.

Do your sockets have the star stamped into them? Maybe they only did that on the 1/2in drive sockets?

The clover/star marks on PENENS/Proto family sockets are marking the locations of the detent spot on the inside of one of the drive walls, for the ball on the male drive stud on the ratchet or spinner or extensions. The 1/4-inch sockets in my PENENS set do not have clovers or stars, because they don't have detents on the inside of a drive wall. The 1/4- and 3/8-inch sockets in this Challenger set do not have them either, for the same reason. One inside wall on the female openings on the extensions have detents, and they have elongated stars marking them.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Found an ad online from Machanix Illustrated dated March 1966.
Your box appears to be slightly later. Notice the box in the ad has very rounded corners and two hasps to lock the lid. The spinner looks different as well. However, the ratchet and the extensions look spot on.

I'd put your's at late 60s. Just my $0.02.

Agreed! And thanks much for the legwork!

 

[DadsTools]

None of the socket drive openings on any of these sockets are chamfered. I think it's a discoloration from the machining or an optical illusion you're seeing.

I was speaking about the outer rim of the bottom of the socket, not the drive openings.

The bottom outside edge of that socket is almost sharp while the other sockets are all beveled around the bottom outside rim.

The photo in the ad shows the long extension almost completely filling the length of its corresponding recess like the one I have.

If it is all original, one would probably just need to find out when Proto began putting both names on the socket.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Ah. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[DadsTools]

I was speaking about the outer rim of the bottom of the socket, not the drive openings.

The bottom outside edge of that socket is almost sharp while the other sockets are all beveled around the bottom outside rim.

The photo in the ad shows the long extension almost completely filling the length of its corresponding recess like the one I have.

If it is all original, one would probably just need to find out when Proto began putting both names on the socket.

I edited this after you replied.

 

[bill300d]

There is an ad from 1964 Here of your set Lugs

 

[DadsTools]

The ads found show this type of set dates back to at least the mid-1960s. However, the square box corners with the single latch, the shortened extension bar (both probably cost-cutting moves) and the transitional sockets in your set, Lugz, still point to a later date IMO. The label inside the lid of the square-cornered box you discovered in your Google search is slightly different than the ones shown in the ads. I think we're still talking late-1960s or a few years later on this. I think the fact that the Google find, my set, and the two ads show one orientation for the driver handle recess while your set has the opposite orientation is also a clue to a different production year.

Once again, I think a more precise dating can be had if we can determine when Proto began marking its sockets with both the Proto and Challenger names. There had to be a starting point for this.

 

[four.cycle]

I'm going to interject something here based on observations of things other than Challenger:

I'm not sure I'd put much stock in the number molded into that plastic insert tray - it might be the contract number or work order number the plastics manufacturer was working with on that job. OR, as suggested, it might be the part number for that set, but without knowing the part number of the set there's no way to confirm that.

As to the two odd sockets, I'd go with the "transition" theory. I've seen many a set of Indestro where mixed "Indestro Super" and "Duro Indestro" was factory-packed in the same package, and instances where there were differences in decorations, i.e., single plain band band or double plain bands or single knurled band.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

There is an ad from 1964 Here of your set Lugs

Thanks kindly, Bill. That's the same set as the ad in the '66 Mechanix Illustrated that Unaiu posted above, but it's nice to see it in color! Basically the same as mine except the two latches and the spinner handle, as Unaiu pointed out, and the molded plastic insert, which I noticed has the spinner facing the other way on mine. But yeah, basically that's it, just earlier probably.

I Google Book'ed on several different word combinations and can't seem to find an ad later than 1966.

 

[DadsTools]

I'm going to interject something here based on observations of things other than Challenger:

I'm not sure I'd put much stock in the number molded into that plastic insert tray - it might be the contract number or work order number the plastics manufacturer was working with on that job. OR, as suggested, it might be the part number for that set, but without knowing the part number of the set there's no way to confirm that.

As to the two odd sockets, I'd go with the "transition" theory. I've seen many a set of Indestro where mixed "Indestro Super" and "Duro Indestro" was factory-packed in the same package, and instances where there were differences in decorations, i.e., single plain band band or double plain bands or single knurled band.

This could very well be. I've been poking around the internet trying to find any reference to when the marking changed from just Challenger to Challenger by Proto. The closest I could find were a couple of combo wrench sets attributed to the late 1970s that are marked 'by Proto', which implies that the dual-name mark came later than the single name mark. If these two sockets in Lugz' set are in fact transitionals, I think that points to a dating on that particular set toward the late 1960s into the 1970s.

 

[DadsTools]

There are references in the ads to Ingersall Rand. Several sources say the IR acquisition was "early 1960s" and another more specific, listing 1964 s the year. It may be this set was introduced in 1964 when it was first advertised.

Lugz: your Google-searched photo shows on the right of the label a pre-printed price along with indicating that the warranty was factory-direct. These were placed there for the benefit of a retailer, not for a direct-to-consumer distribution channel. But the 1966 MI ad offers a catalog and seems to imply that these could be ordered factory direct. These considerations may be helpful in narrowing the date. The later retailer-oriented channel could be why factory ads stopped in 1966.

Still think the key, however, is finding when that dual-name format started.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I'm not sure I'd put much stock in the number molded into that plastic insert tray - it might be the contract number or work order number the plastics manufacturer was working with on that job. OR, as suggested, it might be the part number for that set, but without knowing the part number of the set there's no way to confirm that.

I think it's a red herring, four.cycle. I can't find any reference to it in anything else. I'm convinced it's inconsequential.

As to the two odd sockets, I agree.

 

[bluebolt]

A Google search turned up this photo.

View media item 76430
It's obviously the same set. Mine is 100% complete, and my box and pieces are in NOS and near-mint condition. But his has the cool label!

I just wish he had shown a close-up of the label. It might include a date or a hint or two.
CONTENTS

3/8-inch drive Ratchet 1260
3/8-inch drive Extension, 3”, 1265 (with the family “*” mark on the indent)
3/8-inch drive Extension, 5-1/2”, 1266 (ditto)
3/8-inch drive Spark Plug Socket 1326
3/8-inch drive (female) to 1/4-inch drive (male) Ratchet Adapter 1253
Nine (9) 1/4-inch drive sockets, 3/16” to 1/2”, 1006 to 1016, including a 7/ (1007), 9/ (1009), and 11/32” (1011) if that helps with date
Eight (8) 3/8-inch drive sockets, 9/16” to 1”, 1218 to 1232

Here is a close-up of the ratchet, spinner, extension heads, adapter, and spark plug socket. The ratchet is the only piece that is marked like the logo brand name (“challenger”), with no capital letters, all the others are all caps (“CHALLENGER”).

View media item 76423
View media item 76426
View media item 76427
View media item 76429
All the sockets are marked in two lines - with the model number, “CHALLENGER” brand, and the size, over “MFD. U.S.A.”….

View media item 76424
View media item 76425
….except for these two (2) sockets, the 3/8-inch drive 1218 9/16” and the 1/4-inch drive 1010 5/16”, which are marked [PROTO]® U.S.A. !

View media item 76428
One more thing. There is an “X 9082” mark under the spark plug socket. That has nothing to do with the spark plug socket, and it almost looks like a set number to me.

View media item 76431

I think that label gives a very strong hint. I see a PTII marking on it which likely stands for Pendelton Tool Industries Inc. That logo is not on the 1964 up box labels posted. So it's likely 1963 or earlier.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

That's a great eye, BB. Not sure what it says about my set though, now that it appears that mine is a little different than the sets in the '64 and '66 ads and the set in the photo ('63 and earlier).

 

[stormking]

Thought I'd see if these sets might help you a bit. I'm not a Challenger collector but can't resist picking up NOS or lightly used sets when I see them. First is a NOS set from the early-mid 1960's. Second is a very little used plastic case w/interior by Pendelton tools sticker, these are likely from the mid 1960's. Last is the later "by Proto" set also NOS. These might help you date your's.
DSCN2213 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/119819727@N06/, on Flickr
Challenger by https://www.flickr.com/photos/119819727@N06/, on Flickr
Challenger by https://www.flickr.com/photos/119819727@N06/, on Flickr

 

[four.cycle]

^ the first image shows a label that says "Cleveland 4, Ohio" - which makes it pre-1964.

the second image shows a label that says "Official Hand Tools of the Indianapolis 500", which begs the question: exactly which years was Proto the "Official" tool at Indy? was it always the "Official" tool, or was there another brand before or after?

the third image has the bottom edge of the label hidden behind the box, and I have to wonder if there's something printed at the bottom of that label that might offer a clue.
the font used for "12-pc. 1/2" drive socket set" is what we referred to (in the sign-making business) as "Helvetica Medium", and didn't really come into vogue in this country until the late 1960s, and became really popular in the 1970s.

 

[bluebolt]

Found an ad online from Machanix Illustrated dated March 1966.
Your box appears to be slightly later. Notice the box in the ad has very rounded corners and two hasps to lock the lid. The spinner looks different as well. However, the ratchet and the extensions look spot on.

I'd put your's at late 60s. Just my $0.02.

I thought the socket case with the PTII was earlier but now I have to rethink that. Look at the lower right corner of the picture above, notice the little "earth" picture that has Pendleton Tool Industries Inc. around it.

 

[bluebolt]

Found this great P & C site with catalogs, the "Warrior" combo set I did not see so far. Catalogs only go to 1966. https://www.pnctools.com/pc-catalogs/

 

[Private Lugnutz]

First is a NOS set from the early-mid 1960's.

How are the tools marked in this set, stormking?

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Looks like they changed the branding shortly after your set was minted. There is a CHALLENGER by PROTO 'warrior's set' on eBay right now. Looks like the same set. Almost all of the sockets are dual branded Proto/Challenger.

In reviewing the entire thread to suss all the input out, I discovered that I completely missed this post, Unaiu!

I agree with you. It appears to be identical in every way to mine - from the shape of the box, the single center latch, the configuration of the tools and the MPI, etc,... except for the markings.

I saved the images for when the sale goes dead. (See thumbnails)

Nearly all of the pieces in the eBay set are CHALLENGER [PROTO](R) U.S.A. The only piece I can see that is CHALLENGER MFD. U.S.A. is the short extension. Making this later than mine. And mine is clearly later than stormking's 1957 - 1964 Challenger Tool, subsidiary of PTTI, Cleveland 4, Ohio set, the 1964 - ? Challenger Tool, subsidiary of PTTI, Cleveland, Ohio 44104 ad and the same 1966 ad.

Still not sure about the first other set I posted. Rectangular box single latch but different configuration and the PTTI label.

I have to give credit to DadsTools for guessing late 60's early 70's on mine and saying early on that transition from MFD. U.S.A. to [PROTO](R) U.S.A. would be key.

The question remains exactly when?

Per TA, Proto closed the Vlchek factory in Cleveland in 1968.

Also per TA, Proto shut down the [P&C] brand in 1973, but continued making Proto and Challenger tools in the same factory.

I'm ecstatic my set is super clean/NOS, but it would help to have a label.

 

[elidas]

Fleet set

 

[Ole Slewfoot]

It looks like they just knocked the factory down. in maps its a dump, but in street fiew from the right, its still there.
https://goo.gl/maps/zbqeNjZPiS52

as late as 1970, Welding Engineer vol 55 lists Vlchek tool at that address.

 

[Kev442]

Since this thread has several nice Challenger sets, I present my uncle's near NOS Challenger's Dagger. Anyone know when the plastic cases started?

 

[My Old Tools]

I bought the same set in high school about 1970.

 

[four.cycle]

1963 Challenger Tool catalog now available for download at ITCL