Need advice for drainage outside my barn...

[moneyisflying]

So I put up a barn a couple years ago and have slowly been finishing it. One thing I have learned is that since my barn is dug into a hill that some water when it gets really wet outside has been pooling up around the south side and when it rains hard, has been coming in my barn. The good news is that the barn is still on a hill and about 50ft east of the barn I have a natural easement. This is good because I know if I run some 4" or 6" tile on a downslope to the easement that I have a place for the water to go.

What I don't know and what I need help with is how do I create a drain, or means to collect the water in the low area beside my barn to funnel it into the drainage tile? At first I thought to look into if they have any perforated drainage tile and just covering it with gravel and making a drain that way to go to the rest of the tile, but I have seen none. I have seen some actual drains that would be fairly simply to plop down outside the tile, but I don't know that it would be the best way as I was thinking it would be clogged by dirt, sticks, stones, leaves ect.

Anyone have any advice?

 

[moneyisflying]

This
And a 12 inch culvert, cut in half so it is now a 40 foot long long plastic ditch when it used to be a 20 foot long tube, that catches the run off from the French drain that surrounds the patio and from the commercial type drain that is imbedded in the patio to catch the patio water.

Anything else is a bandaid and not a fix for any barn built into a hill side or below grade.

Do you have a picture of what you are talking about? We are visual creatures and I am having a hard time picturing what the oh are talking about.

I will also try to get some pics to show the area so everyone can see what I am talking about also.

 

[ptgarcia]

What do mean by "natural easement?" Can you just cut a swale from the low spot to this area?

 

[kbs2244]

Do you have gutters?
It easier to install them and downspouts than to dig.
Go commercial oversized, not house sized.

 

[moneyisflying]

What do mean by "natural easement?" Can you just cut a swale from the low spot to this area?

I'll get some pictures.

I could cut one, but it would be a much bigger project and require either a TON of back breaking work or a larger added expense of getting an excavator and making a lot more mess than just renting a trencher for $45 and laying a $40 tile.

Do you have gutters?
It easier to install them and downspouts than to dig.
Go commercial oversized, not house sized.

No. I don't have gutters. The rainfall from the roof I believe is only a small portion of the rain collected in the low area compared to just the fact that it's in a lower area at that portion of the barn.

 

[moneyisflying]

So here is a pic of the affected side of my barn. The pictures may not do it full justice but the area at the side of the barn is a good 5' lower than the area around the barn.

This is looking at it the other direction. My 5 year old son is down at the lower area I want to take the drainage tile to. There is a lower area there with an already made culvert that goes under my driveway.

Finally, here is the area my son was again looking at the lowest area where I want to draw the water to. It measured out to be about 93 feet, so if I got a 100' roll that should work about perfect.

 

[Radix2]

Although everyone here love love loves to talk about french drains and tiles, what you should do is borrow some equipment (say a tractor with a box blade or so) and regrade around your barn and down to the ditch.

You are in Indiana... when it is wet and miserable and the spring snow is melting, the ground is frozen and your tile will do nothing.

Get a proper grade.

It works 100% of the time rain or shine and needs zero maintainance like unclogging grates, leaves and weeds choking gravel beds, etc etc.

Leave the complex stuff for the guys stuck on tiny lots with few options.

Out there in Gods country, do as a god intended...let the water run downhill

Amen. IMO

 

[ptgarcia]

Although everyone here love love loves to talk about french drains and tiles, what you should do is borrow some equipment (say a tractor with a box blade or so) and regrade around your barn and down to the ditch.

You are in Indiana... when it is wet and miserable and the spring snow is melting, the ground is frozen and your tile will do nothing.

Get a proper grade.

It works 100% of the time rain or shine and needs zero maintainance like unclogging grates, leaves and weeds choking gravel beds, etc etc.

Leave the complex stuff for the guys stuck on tiny lots with few options.

Out there in Gods country, do as a god intended...let the water run downhill

Amen. IMO

I agree. I design this stuff for a living and would always recommend this first.

 

[Shawn S]

Get a proper grade.

It works 100% of the time rain or shine and needs zero maintainance like unclogging grates, leaves and weeds choking gravel beds, etc etc.

Leave the complex stuff for the guys stuck on tiny lots with few options.

This is what I was going to post. This is the answer, unless I am not looking at your pictures right. Looks like you have plenty of ability to get proper grade.

 

[jives]

Get a proper grade.

Out there in Gods country, do as a god intended...let the water run downhill

Amen. IMO

^3
A nicely contoured ditch --more of a swale -- will serve nicely. Mowable, no rocks. Easy-peasy.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Changing grade is probably the best solution, but not always practical.

Been there, done that, and it is posted here !

Start by trenching about 2-3' deep along the side and around the back. You need to install the drain anywhere the grade is ABOVE THE SLAB. Start by laying in a piece of commercial grade landscape cloth, probably about 6-8' wide, in the trench. Lay in a couple of inches of 3/4" gravel. This will make it easier to adjust the pitch of the pipe. I believe that solid pipe is less likely to clog long term so that is why I used it. Solid perforated pipe should be covered with a sock. Add more gravel up to about 12" from grade. Fold the landscape cloth in and then replace the top soil and sod.

I understand the argument about late winter thaws and frozen dirt not allowing drainage. I have not had that problem. I believe that during those late winter/early spring freeze/thaw cycles that the ground defrosts at least to the level of the pipe. Once the water is in the pipe, as long as there is proper pitch. It will be gone in minutes.

 

[lakeroadster]

Indeed.. have a swale cut.

I fought drainage issues with a detached garage when we lived in Ohio. I had an excavator come out and in 4 hours he fixed what I had been fighting for 4 years.

Shallow underground drainage pipes in the midwest will freeze in the winter, then you'll have water backing up around your barn and have the exact same issue you are having now.... at which point you'll be thinking you threw good money after bad.

 

[NUTTSGT]

Seeing how my tile drain has been working on my garage, I swore if I ever put up a new building, I'd go gutterless. Go to post #2331

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=75024&page=117

EDIT:
That'll take you to page 117, keep reading for more on page 118 too.

 

[moneyisflying]

Okay, I appreciate the input, but I have no tractor I can borrow, let alone room to get something to grade on th back of a tractor around the barn. I literally will be again turning the likely $200 job into a $2000 job by getting something like a new grade made.

I already have a tile dug for my barn under it. Had it for a few years even in the frozen winter, and I have never had a problem with it freezing up. If the outdoor one would freeze, you have to consider everything needing drained would also be frozen, and not really need to be drained then either, until it melts, and then what ice that would be in the drain would melt also.

The culvert is mine and is on my property so no problem there with getting water to it.

I spoke with my neighbor that does construction and he said I can just do an outdoor drain and mate it up with a 4 inch tile and that would do it fine. He said with equipment rental and supplies he doubts I'll have more than $150 total in this which would be awesome.

I do appreciate all the input even if it's not the route I would take. Again, the pictures may not give an accurate description of the situation to show what the best method would really be to everyone here.

 

[Radix2]

maybe you are scared by the term "grade" or "tractor" but looking again at the pictures, it doesn't look like you need to move a huge amount of dirt to get things working.

1. make the outside grade where it hits the building 3-6 in below your floor
2. grade down from the outside wall of your building another 6 in over the first 4 feet.
3. make sure your driveway slopes down from your building.


If you can't or don't have these basics right (maybe you do?) then even $150 spent on doing other things is miss-spent.

And given those basics (which it looks like you have space for (and probably have some of already), then it is hard to see where your problem originates.

Is your building sitting right on your property line ?

 

[moneyisflying]

maybe you are scared by the term "grade" or "tractor" but looking again at the pictures, it doesn't look like you need to move a huge amount of dirt to get things working.

1. make the outside grade where it hits the building 3-6 in below your floor
2. grade down from the outside wall of your building another 6 in over the first 4 feet.
3. make sure your driveway slopes down from your building.


If you can't or don't have these basics right (maybe you do?) then even $150 spent on doing other things is miss-spent.

And given those basics (which it looks like you have space for (and probably have some of already), then it is hard to see where your problem originates.

Is your building sitting right on your property line ?

I think you are missing the point. I understand making an easement would be the best solution, however I don't have access to a tractor. Unlike popular belief there are not tractors everywhere in Indiana just waiting to be borrowed. To my knowledge there are not any I could even rent locally, nor do I have friends who have one that I could ask to borrow. There are companies that do good excavation work that I do know. But to just unload their equipment and not even turn it on, the prices start at $500.

Further more, when my neighbor who does construction full time says my idea would be ideal, and cheap, it would seem that I have "the basics" to grasp this. I already bought the 4" tile and drain, and signed up to rent the trencher. Total cost is gonna be about $130 before getting grass seed and should only take 4 hours or so with minimal amounts of ripping up my yard.

I do appreciate the input, and am not trying to disregard what ideas have been given, but many times I have found other good solutions to problems I have asked help for here. I find some people are more focused on being upset that I didn't take their personal advice rather than perhaps accept that there are many different ways to find solutions to different problems.

 

[lakeroadster]

I find some people are more focused on being upset that I didn't take their personal advice rather than perhaps accept that there are many different ways to find solutions to different problems.

I don't think anybody is upset.. just looking out for your best interest. It's a good - better - best thing.

Good luck with your project

 

[matt_i]

Although everyone here love love loves to talk about french drains and tiles, what you should do is borrow some equipment (say a tractor with a box blade or so) and regrade around your barn and down to the ditch.

You are in Indiana... when it is wet and miserable and the spring snow is melting, the ground is frozen and your tile will do nothing.

Get a proper grade.

It works 100% of the time rain or shine and needs zero maintainance like unclogging grates, leaves and weeds choking gravel beds, etc etc.

Leave the complex stuff for the guys stuck on tiny lots with few options.

Out there in Gods country, do as a god intended...let the water run downhill

Amen. IMO

Yep, get a tractor with a box blade, take the vertical adjuster on one side of the 3 point hitch and pull it all the way up (shorten the turnbuckle-link). Now start grading/moving dirt.

You are establishing the centerline of the "ditch" with the lower edge that's digging in.

There are two options, either turn the tractor around and cut back the opposite direction, just offset from the centerline, or if you want to pull all of the dirt downhill, its going to require skewing the cutting edge in the opposite direction relative to horizontal. Just reverse the short and long vertical links by turning the "buckle"

 

[ard]

I guess I dont understand why you would post "help me figure this out" when you have already decided what to do!

Water runs down hill. Period

Make a trench around the barn, put your pipe in this. Hopefully the water will flow into the trench then out your pipe.

Until it gets clogged in 8 years, or ice and snow freezes it and the spring thaw runs into the barn. Or both

 

[stm317]

I'm in central Indiana. My house sits on a pretty flat lot and has buried drain tile that the previous owners put in for gutter downspouts. Overall it seems to work ok. No issues with freezing/thawing causing problems that I'm aware of.

However, when I built my pole barn, I buried 4 inch solid PVC for the downspouts as it seemed like they'd flow better and be less likely to clog than the standard drain tile is. It's also more crush resistant, able to fend off tree roots better, and I can run a plumbing snake through it without fear of damaging anything should it ever get clogged. Digging/trenching *****, and for something like this I'd rather pay a bit more and have to do it far less often. I don't think I'll ever go back to normal drain tile.

 

[finn]

Installing drain tile is a temporary solution, at best. It will eventually silt up and become ineffective.

Creating a swale for natural surface drainage will be a forever solution, and from your photos, looks like a simple job.

I had to run drain tile from the back of a house, and around the side recently. A swale wouldn't work because of the septic field location and driveway / patio.

In the process of excavating for the new drain tile, I found two sets of previously installed, but silted in drain tile. The house was built in about 1970.

 

[moneyisflying]

I got the tile in back in late September. Drilled some holes in the top, put some pea gravel on top, and had it run downhill. It has caps at both ends that are easily removable. If for some reason it would get clogged, it would take a hose and about 15 minutes of patience to get it cleaned out again.

I've been waiting for a good set of rainfall to see how this worked, and I have had a few downpours now to see the results.

It works perfect! It takes away the rain water just like I wanted. The barn is bone dry and the best part was I have less than $100 ******* in the whole project and I did NOT have to rip apart the yard or spend a ton creating a natural swale as many suggested.

I don't disagree that doing the swale would have worked just fine, but it was not the best solution for me with the budget I had at the time for this. As with most any project, there are multiple ways to get things accomplished. One way may be best for one person but may not be for another.

 

[jives]

As with most any project, there are multiple ways to get things accomplished. One way may be best for one person but may not be for another.

Amen. Happy it worked out for you at such a low cost!

 

[moneyisflying]

Amen. Happy it worked out for you at such a low cost!

Yeah dude! It was exactly what I wanted. I am trying to finish the barn and before I put the drywall up I needed to make sure water would not come in anymore, and did not want to spend a ton on it to get it done (leaving me more $ to spend on the barn itself).

 

[ard]

A swale will work for 200 years. Zero maintenance.

Report back when the spring thaw hits and everything is frozen below grade and water melting above.

 

[tncatadjuster]

Pat yourself on the back, you defied logic and have a successful solution, a man does not get many of those.

Sounds as if you got it all done in three days, impressive.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Installing drain tile is a temporary solution, at best. It will eventually silt up and become ineffective.

The world is temporary !

If the drain pipe/till is installed as I showed in my write up, I am confident it will last 50 years, maybe 100 !

Good quality, synthetic fiber, landscape cloth will keep the "fines" out of the pipe for a long, long time. If the end goes to "daylight" or a reasonable large dry well you should be able to flush it from a clean out at the opposite end.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Report back when the spring thaw hits and everything is frozen below grade and water melting above.

My system has been in almost 10 years now. Spring rains of frozen soil was a major problem. My low area is now about 3' of gravel. Never a problem with the system freezing.

My only problem is the dry well overflowing when there are heavy rains or extremely warm weather after heavy snow. Even that overflow drops below grade within about 24 hours (before the dry well that area would be wet for 3-5 days after a heavy rain).

 

[lakeroadster]

Report back when the spring thaw hits and everything is frozen below grade and water melting above.

Re-quoted for truthiness.

Might take 2 months, might take 10 years... but near surface level drainage pipes in cold weather climates are a **** shoot.

 

[firebirdparts]

I assume the original question was what to set up for intake, yes? It's not like you don't know what a pipe is, or don't know what gravity is. I thought it was a good question.

A catch basin seems like a good idea. They sell prefab ones at the store, but I personally have not used them. https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=drainage+catch+basin You can of course make your own too. It needs to be lower than the problem, and for that reason it's hard to keep dirt out of them. You are going to need to clean that out.

The trench with gravel, to me, is going to get covered with dirt and quit working.

 

[rburke65]

Had I guy come in with a small track hoe. Took out 6 pines and 2 maples and cut in a swale to direct water to where we wanted it to go. No pipe....just him on his track hoe. Worked well. Hire it out and be happy.

 

[moneyisflying]

Sounds like some people are listening and others are still set that it's their way only.

I will report back in the spring and am happy to keep everyone updated. The thing is the end of the pipe near my barn has a cap that's easily removable. If the pipe did get filled I could easily take the cap off and rinse the pipe out. But drainage during the spring was never an issue I have had. As in there's just not a ton of water that comes from that area with snow. My drainage issues had always been when we would have a rare extreme hard rainfall and it would back up into my barn. I have had a few of those since it's been up and it has worked perfect.

The other thing about this project that I needed was to be sure it was cheap. I didn't have a lot of extra money to spend getting this problem resolved. Hence I did not have the ability to have someone come out with equipment to make the swale. Some people have not seemed to grasp that part I guess. I don't doubt the swale would have worked with less maintenance, however, if it was a solution that I couldn't afford or do at all, I fail to see how it would have been an actual solution. At any rate, the fix is done. Time will tell how it holds up but even if it clogs I have an easy way of cleaning it. If it comes to that I can do it. Not a big deal.

 

[theoldwizard1]

The trench with gravel, to me, is going to get covered with dirt and quit working.

OP has "tile" (pipe) buried, but it too will fill with dirt if there is no landscape cloth.

I you review my project, the trench is First lined with landscape cloth, then some gravel (mostly for leveling), then pipe. The PVC pipe with holes has a a cloth sleeve on it. More gravel is added up to about 12"-18" below grade and the cloth is folded in before back filling with top soil.

It has been working perfect for about 10 years.