teach me about air nailers

[vavet]

It seems like there are 4 basic flavors of air nailers:
1. framing
2. finish/brad
3. stapler
4. roofing/coil type

I see 15, 16, 18 gauge finish nailers.
What would I want to use for something like a fence or building a small fixture in my garage? It seems I want something stronger and bigger than a finish nail. I want a larger head, but I don't necessarily need a framing nailer. That seems like that is to build a wall in a house.

Can I get a 15 gauge nailer using clipped head or full head nails instead of finish nails?

 

[Fbmoose48]

Do you want you fence or fixture as strong as a wall or molding/trim/cabinetry?

That should answer the framing vs finish debate.

 

[Fbmoose48]

Also keep in mind angled vs straight for the finish nailers, as well as the fact that not all angles (DA and FN) are the same. I prefer Hitachi nails and the flexibility of an angled clip, so I stick with 34° nails for 15 ga. While others will disagree, 16 ga is relatively irrelevant if you already have 15 and 18 ga, unless you're a pro finish carpenter. 23 ga pins have their place as well.

 

[GJtoolnut]

Finish nails are surprisingly strong. A 2" 16 gauge finish nail will be plenty strong for building most things around the house.

A framing nailer is really only necessary for framing walls (duh), subflooring, workbenches etc.

 

[trainer]

I have an 18 ga. Brad nailer and a framing nailer. The brad nailer gets used often, framing nailer only comes out for really big projects. Anything in between usually gets a screw.
Whenever practical use glue with a Brad nailed joint.

 

[EOC_Jason]

For a fence I would imagine you could use a coil nailer or framing that will shoot at least 2" ring shank nails.

I have an 18ga nailer for small projects and I'm real happy with it... For little projects never underestimate the power of wood glue + 18ga brad nails that are of proper length.

EDIT... Haha ^^^ He posted the same about glue & brad nails... great minds think alike I guess...

 

[Bretny]

For a fence. Use screws. Look up the price of proper exterior coated nails.
Finish guns are for intrior non scructual.

 

[ItsNemo]

For a fence. Use screws. Look up the price of proper exterior coated nails.
Finish guns are for intrior non scructual.

Fence you want a framing nailer with 2" ring shank galvanized nails. Screws for fence boards is ridiculous, 1) it will takes ages to build even with the best impact driver and 2) you will split a metric **** ton of boards unless you pre-drill them all.

Fixture in the garage, I assuming shelving or work tables or something, screws are best.

 

[kwschumm]

Finish nails are surprisingly strong. A 2" 16 gauge finish nail will be plenty strong for building most things around the house.

A framing nailer is really only necessary for framing walls (duh), subflooring, workbenches etc.

Please don't use nails for subfloors, use glue and screws. You might save someone down the road from having never ending floor squeaks.

 

[vavet]

Fence you want a framing nailer with 2" ring shank galvanized nails. Screws for fence boards is ridiculous, 1) it will takes ages to build even with the best impact driver and 2) you will split a metric **** ton of boards unless you pre-drill them all.

Fixture in the garage, I assuming shelving or work tables or something, screws are best.

LOL @ metric **** ton....it sounds so official, so proper, so correct. But yet...it's not.

 

[ChaseDE]

Good answer here, my only contribution to this is that Home Depot and maybe others sells a combo pack or all the air nailers you need for a pretty good price. I have this set and have used it a bunch, good stuff.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/HDX-Pneumatic-Finishing-Kit-4-Piece-HDX4PFNK/204323604

 

[rlitman]

Finish nails are surprisingly strong. A 2" 16 gauge finish nail will be plenty strong for building most things around the house.

A framing nailer is really only necessary for framing walls (duh), subflooring, workbenches etc.

Finish nails are surprisingly strong, BUT the 16 gauge finish nails have a serious weakness, common with all straight nail strips.

By having nails aligned in a straight strip, the heads must only be T shaped, and that limits the head size, so while it may take a lot of force to pull a 16 gauge nail out, it takes comparatively little force to rip something right off the nail. You get the same issue with 18 gauge brads. And pin nails don't have heads at all.

The advantage of a 15 gauge angled finish nailer is that the nails are on an angled strip. This allows the use of D head nails, which will not pull through so easily, and that's what I'd be using to attach fence pickets.

 

[Todd.Brock]

I started with a 18 ga HF brad nailer. It works great for trim. Used a Hitachi 15 ga trim nailer for a while. That was good for a little larger project of putting on exterior trim on a shed project. I settled in on a Paslode Cordless nailer , 16 ga angled which does all interior trim (base, crown, chair rail , etc. if you get into really fancy stuff may need 18 ga or a 23 ga pinner.

For framing I use the Paslode framer. It works well for outdoor projects with 2 3/8 galvanized ring shanks. It was faster than deck mates for a temp ramp for my dog to go outside that had surgery. It really depends on what your doing , but there isn’t crossover between framing and finish. 16, 18, 15 is a little murkier. 16 ga will do my next set of mudroom benches.

 

[packet]

Use screws for a fence. No matter what type of nail you use, they will eventually start to pop down the line and your fence will look like ****. A fence isn't going to get a ton of shear force applied to it, so nails aren't really required.

Same thing for subfloors. Glue and screw them all.

Framing nailers I use on studs for framing walls and the like (duh). That's about it.

Finish nailers or brad nailers are used for trim and stuff that isn't structural.

 

[Rarified27]

Could someone who uses nailers constantly throw in the average pressure/cfm for the gauges?

I know a lot of folks get hung up buying separate nailers and compressors because they think their mega nailer can bump fire a 3 inch, 100 round coil running on a 1 gallon at 40psi.

I was one of those guys once!

 

[PelicanPines]

And there is a whole subcategory of finish nailers...

Pin
Angled
Straight

And FWIW... framing nailers won't work with that 1/4" coiled air hose...

 

[ItsNemo]

Could someone who uses nailers constantly throw in the average pressure/cfm for the gauges?

I know a lot of folks get hung up buying separate nailers and compressors because they think their mega nailer can bump fire a 3 inch, 100 round coil running on a 1 gallon at 40psi.

I was one of those guys once!

Pressure varies at the gun to get the depth you need...usually means a regulator somewhere in the 80-110psi range depending on hose length, fastener and hardness of the wood. This is on top of depth adjustment at the gun.

Whatever it is, make sure low cut in pressure on the compressor is 120psi. Anything lower and you end up having nails not fire flush. Tank size will just determine how often it runs, but you're right, you won't be bump firing framing nails for 5 minutes straight on any small pancake compressor. My older 26 gallon could bump fire framers for quite a while and never fall behind with only one nail gun running on it. My big 60 gallon 5hp that I use at home now could bump fire until the cows came home with a half dozen people.

 

[850xpeps]

Best nailer I’ve used for framing has been hitachi. Seems to hit hard and cleaner than any other I’ve used. And I’ve used lots of brands. Uses less air it seems as well put pancake cycles less on it as it seems to put more air into the nail as opposed to put the back. Have a little makita for finishing seems to work. If driving 2” nails for sheathing or something my reg is set to 100 psi and for framing nails it’s set to 120 + whatever the compressor puts out.

 

[engineer2]

Sold my framing nailer, not doing much framing these days. You need ring-shank nails for good holding power.
Still have my palm nailer which is handy between joists.
15 ga angled finish nailer is a good all-around tool for trim and some furniture.
18 ga stright brad nailer is good for base shoe or small more delicate projects.
A narrow crown stapler is handy for furniture. It's the most common way furniture manufacturers assemble cheap furniture.

With any nailer be careful. Never put you finger near where the nail or brad is going in. I've had them hit a hidden knot or a nail, bend into a U and come back out half an inch.

 

[LandofRath]

Fence you want a framing nailer with 2" ring shank galvanized nails. Screws for fence boards is ridiculous, 1) it will takes ages to build even with the best impact driver and 2) you will split a metric **** ton of boards unless you pre-drill them all.

.

Disagree, although it does take longer to screw boards up I have only used screws for years and have split very few fence boards that I can recall.. and I never get call backs anymore because someone kicked a plank out. Use self tapping deck style screws.. And to me it just holds up longer and looks better.

 

[ItsNemo]

Disagree, although it does take longer to screw boards up I have only used screws for years and have split very few fence boards that I can recall.. and I never get call backs anymore because someone kicked a plank out. Use self tapping deck style screws.. And to me it just holds up longer and looks better.

I'm up in the snowy great white north but in my experience, it's rarely the boards/nailing that have issues...it's usually frost heave and rot that takes the fence.

Splitting with normal construction style/decking style screws on most fence boards (regular pressure treated stuff) is pretty frequent; I haven't tried self tapping style screws though. Installation speed with a nail gun is much faster as well.

 

[rlitman]

...And FWIW... framing nailers won't work with that 1/4" coiled air hose...

Heck yes they will. Nailers have an air reservoir in the handle. Framers have a bigger tank than finishers for just this reason. Have you seen the ludicrous lengths of 1/4" air hose that roofers regularly use?

 

[rlitman]

Use screws for a fence. No matter what type of nail you use, they will eventually start to pop down the line and your fence will look like ****. A fence isn't going to get a ton of shear force applied to it, so nails aren't really required.

Same thing for subfloors. Glue and screw them all.

Framing nailers I use on studs for framing walls and the like (duh). That's about it.

Finish nailers or brad nailers are used for trim and stuff that isn't structural.

Have you seen these?
http://www.nailgundepot.com/scrails

Collated screws that are fired in with a framing nailer. I don't think I'd trust them for a subfloor, but they're probably fine for decking.

 

[trainer]

If you have too many boards splitting it's probably an issue with technique. Too close to the edge or end of the board, multiple screws lined up.in the grain, driving a screw into a knot or existing split, etc.

 

[catron44]

While I have a framing nailer, stapler, 15, 16 & 18ga in both pneumatic and paslode guns, this might be the answer:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/RIDGID-3-in-Drywall-and-Deck-Collated-Screwdriver-R6791/100646501

I've got the senco version and the ridgid 18v version. It makes driving screws really fast.

 

[ItsNemo]

If you have too many boards splitting it's probably an issue with technique. Too close to the edge or end of the board, multiple screws lined up.in the grain, driving a screw into a knot or existing split, etc.

Fence boards split...screws split things easier than nails...nails are WAY faster for fence building and 99% of the pro's out there use them.

Heck yes they will. Nailers have an air reservoir in the handle. Framers have a bigger tank than finishers for just this reason. Have you seen the ludicrous lengths of 1/4" air hose that roofers regularly use?

Not exactly...the reason framing nailers have larger "tanks" on them is because there is a larger piston in there which generates more force (think about pounds per square inch on a big round plate pushing down a very small hammer).

 

[rlitman]

...Not exactly...the reason framing nailers have larger "tanks" on them is because there is a larger piston in there which generates more force (think about pounds per square inch on a big round plate pushing down a very small hammer).

No, I'm not talking about the size of the piston cylinder. The hand grip itself is a hollow air tank on air nailers. It is designed to hold enough air to fire one nail. If you installed a valve inline with the QD fitting, you could fill up the nailer with air from your hose, shut the valve, and fire a nail. The hose is only needed to refill the reservoir.

 

[packet]

Have you seen these?
http://www.nailgundepot.com/scrails

Collated screws that are fired in with a framing nailer. I don't think I'd trust them for a subfloor, but they're probably fine for decking.

Huh. That's super interesting. Have you tried them? I can't imagine they have the hold of a screw put in with a drill, but who knows.

 

[packet]

Fence boards split...screws split things easier than nails...nails are WAY faster for fence building and 99% of the pro's out there use them.

Yeah the pros are mostly concerned about getting the job done as quickly as possible and don't have to live with the fence for 15 years. If you're doing it for a customer, a nail gun is likely the way to go. If you're doing it for yourself, screws are going to be the better option.

I'm generally of the opinion that I don't ever want to do a project a second time. So, it's better to spend some extra time up front to make sure it lasts. Screws will last significantly longer. Same reason everyone uses screws for drywall now rather than nails.

 

[PelicanPines]

No, I'm not talking about the size of the piston cylinder. The hand grip itself is a hollow air tank on air nailers. It is designed to hold enough air to fire one nail. If you installed a valve inline with the QD fitting, you could fill up the nailer with air from your hose, shut the valve, and fire a nail. The hose is only needed to refill the reservoir.

Funny you said that... I actually had that discussion with my contractor buddy. We did JUST THAT... put a valve on the end of the nailer... "charged it" and fired... we got between 75 and 80% penetration in a 2 x 4 with 3 inch nails... we put a 3/8" pigtail hose 24" long on the nailer... put the valve after that... redid the test... BINGO... it went 100% in. It needed that extra 3/8" x 24" pigtail.

FYI... it's a Senco framer.. don't remember the model... it's about 20 yrs old now.

The whole reason we did it... we were arguing about the air nailers that used cartridges instead of a compressor.

 

[ItsNemo]

No, I'm not talking about the size of the piston cylinder. The hand grip itself is a hollow air tank on air nailers. It is designed to hold enough air to fire one nail. If you installed a valve inline with the QD fitting, you could fill up the nailer with air from your hose, shut the valve, and fire a nail. The hose is only needed to refill the reservoir.

Hmm, that's interesting...either way, agreed that 1/4" hose is plenty. I use a short 1/4" self retracting coil hose whip with my brad and finish nailers so I don't have to fight as much with heavy 3/8" rubber hose.

Yeah the pros are mostly concerned about getting the job done as quickly as possible and don't have to live with the fence for 15 years. If you're doing it for a customer, a nail gun is likely the way to go. If you're doing it for yourself, screws are going to be the better option.

I'm generally of the opinion that I don't ever want to do a project a second time. So, it's better to spend some extra time up front to make sure it lasts. Screws will last significantly longer. Same reason everyone uses screws for drywall now rather than nails.

Well if you know a way to stop frost heave and rot...I'm all ears. Every fence I've ever seen or built up this way has inevitably failed due to frost/rot, never from losing a board or two. In fact, the only time I've ever had to replace boards on the fences is when they get hit with something (sports, ladders, etc).

Funny you said that... I actually had that discussion with my contractor buddy. We did JUST THAT... put a valve on the end of the nailer... "charged it" and fired... we got between 75 and 80% penetration in a 2 x 4 with 3 inch nails... we put a 3/8" pigtail hose 24" long on the nailer... put the valve after that... redid the test... BINGO... it went 100% in. It needed that extra 3/8" x 24" pigtail.

FYI... it's a Senco framer.. don't remember the model... it's about 20 yrs old now.

The whole reason we did it... we were arguing about the air nailers that used cartridges instead of a compressor.

Neat.

 

[PelicanPines]

Funny you said that... I actually had that discussion with my contractor buddy. We did JUST THAT... put a valve on the end of the nailer... "charged it" and fired... we got between 75 and 80% penetration in a 2 x 4 with 3 inch nails... we put a 3/8" pigtail hose 24" long on the nailer... put the valve after that... redid the test... BINGO... it went 100% in. It needed that extra 3/8" x 24" pigtail.

FYI... it's a Senco framer.. don't remember the model... it's about 20 yrs old now.

The whole reason we did it... we were arguing about the air nailers that used cartridges instead of a compressor.

Additionally... with that pigtail... i was able to fire nails all day long with a 1/4" coil hose feeding it. WITHOUT that pigtail... it would NOT completely sink a nail.

Updated:... if only we had a real compressor that did something beyond 125psi...

 

[rlitman]

Huh. That's super interesting. Have you tried them? I can't imagine they have the hold of a screw put in with a drill, but who knows.

Nah, can't say I've used them. Just found it an interesting concept.
But I have had some experience trying to pull GOOD nails that were fired in by my air framer. Many have so much pullout resistance that I've seen the shanks fail in tension before they budge. I've had this particular issue with coated nails (for hot dipped galvanized, spiral nails come close).

Much of a nail's holding power is related to how it directly displaces and engages wood fibers in one direction. The bending of the fibers in the direction of the nail's travel allows the nail to continue forward, without allowing it to back out (until sufficient force is applied to reverse these fibers). In many cases, nails have that as an advantage over screws.

Funny you said that... I actually had that discussion with my contractor buddy. We did JUST THAT... put a valve on the end of the nailer... "charged it" and fired... we got between 75 and 80% penetration in a 2 x 4 with 3 inch nails... we put a 3/8" pigtail hose 24" long on the nailer... put the valve after that... redid the test... BINGO... it went 100% in. It needed that extra 3/8" x 24" pigtail.

FYI... it's a Senco framer.. don't remember the model... it's about 20 yrs old now.

The whole reason we did it... we were arguing about the air nailers that used cartridges instead of a compressor.

I could see that. But that just means that if you were to crank up the pressure just a little bit to account for that tiny volume of air, you'd be right as rain. And it also pretty much confirms that a 1/4" hose of an arbitrary length could be just fine.

 

[PelicanPines]

I could see that. But that just means that if you were to crank up the pressure just a little bit to account for that tiny volume of air, you'd be right as rain. And it also pretty much confirms that a 1/4" hose of an arbitrary length could be just fine.

Yea... back then we only had a 10 gallon crapsman compressor... 125psi... You are probably absolutely correct. If i could have fed it with 150psi... for sure.

I always forget people fire nails with "real compressors"... i always envision them like me... some piss poor pancake or dual hot dog set up...

 

[GarageGuy89]

It seems like there are 4 basic flavors of air nailers:
1. framing
2. finish/brad
3. stapler
4. roofing/coil type

I see 15, 16, 18 gauge finish nailers.
What would I want to use for something like a fence or building a small fixture in my garage? It seems I want something stronger and bigger than a finish nail. I want a larger head, but I don't necessarily need a framing nailer. That seems like that is to build a wall in a house.

Can I get a 15 gauge nailer using clipped head or full head nails instead of finish nails?

My advice is to go to home depot and look at the different nails on the shelves, and make your decision based on that. All the sizes and options are grouped together so it gives you a good visual on what each one can do. It gives you a perspective that online pictures can't.

As for the actual nailer, they are all the same, they just vary in size based on the nail gauge.

There is a reason there are so many sizes...we will go in circles all day here talking about why one size is the best.

 

[SRSemenza]

I too would use screws for most fence applications. Get self drilling / counter sinking such as GRK brand. If close to an end or edge or in wood that is prone to splitting pre-drill. You can speed things up by predrilling the stack of boards before you start putting them up. You can also make putting them with screws less of a three handed job by going through quickly and tacking them all in place with a nailer of your choice. Makes it real easy to go through and put the screws in fast when you don't have to hold each board in place. If you have a helper then it doesn't make much difference.

For smaller shop projects and small to medium size trim an 18ga that shoots up to 2" in brads will do most if not all jobs in that range. 18ga is agood place to start. Then if you need bigger or smaller 15ga and 23ga (or the newer 21ga). I had previously used older Porter Cable nailers that were very good. Not sure how the newer ones are. Recently switched to Bostich Smart Point in 18 and 15. The features and very narrow nose are really good. I have always found 16ga to be a compromise between 18 and 15 .... not bad , but not the best for either.



Seth

 

[850xpeps]

Hmm, that's interesting...either way, agreed that 1/4" hose is plenty. I use a short 1/4" self retracting coil hose whip with my brad and finish nailers so I don't have to fight as much with heavy 3/8" rubber hose.







Well if you know a way to stop frost heave and rot...I'm all ears. Every fence I've ever seen or built up this way has inevitably failed due to frost/rot, never from losing a board or two. In fact, the only time I've ever had to replace boards on the fences is when they get hit with something (sports, ladders, etc).







Neat.

Put the post in below the frost line...... that should almost illuminate it. No one wants to put a post 6’ down? Why not? That’s what I do. Can also wrap poly around the bottom of the post so the ground won’t grab it. While that mightvtrape moisture it’s in the ground anyway.


1/4” airline will operate a framing nailer with eeze. It’s what we use and run 200’ or more at times. Building walls or nailer top plates or beams together with fast nailing.


And people who screw fence boards on are hacks. Staples will hold better but come on do it right and screw it. Pros screw it they don’t nail it for time. That’s what a hack does. Sometimes you need to drill and countersink because the material is garbage. Whatever nets a good end result long term. Same with deck boards. They should be screwed closer to the edges to prevent cupping and no **** joints should seen. Scarf only.

 

[Fbmoose48]

Frost line varies by location, although I agree - if you don't want it to heave it ought to be set beneath it

 

[Mr Ratchet]

I have all the nailers you mention plus a brad nailer as well as a Makita Auto Feed driver. For fences with boards 1/2" to 3/4" thick I use my 15 ga 7/16" crown stapler. I use the 2 1/2" length. Super fast, cheap, and they hold great. I've put up several fences and they are all holding tight even after 15 or so winters. I also use this stapler on the bottom of decks to hold vertical deck planks instead of lattice. My deck is pushing 20 years with no loose boards. I also use it for other projects for holding plywood/OSB.

 

[850xpeps]

I have all the nailers you mention plus a brad nailer as well as a Makita Auto Feed driver. For fences with boards 1/2" to 3/4" thick I use my 15 ga 7/16" crown stapler. I use the 2 1/2" length. Super fast, cheap, and they hold great. I've put up several fences and they are all holding tight even after 15 or so winters. I also use this stapler on the bottom of decks to hold vertical deck planks instead of lattice. My deck is pushing 20 years with no loose boards. I also use it for other projects for holding plywood/OSB.

I use staples on lbs sheathing and plywood sheathing. I use screws on decking a and fencing for hold and aesthetics. Staples look crappy imo.


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