Structural question

[Rydwny26]

So I plan on building a barn this spring and last year I came across a deal in steel framed building for a killer deal that I bought. Well now I realize that this building won't exactly be ideal for what I want. It only has a 9' ceiling and id like to be at least 12. The building was designed to sit on a concrete pad so initially I thought the only way to increase the ceiling height was to pour a footer and stem wall to then sit the bottom plate on. However I was kicking around some cheaper options and would some opinions on this. The trusses are made from 4x4 square tubing so I was thinking I could set 6x6 posts like you would a pole barn, then notch the top down to a 4x4 which will slide up into the truss about 16". Then sandwich the top of the posts with 2x10 headers along the length that will sit on those notches and bolts through the headers, truss and post. Then on the inside block it out with a 2x6 and then run maybe a 2' 2x6 down the post for more support. Sorry if it's not really to clear of an explanation, just thinking it would be a much easier and more economical way for me to raise the ceiling height.

 

[joe--h]

Stem wall. Anything else is going to be a flimsey mess.
And what are you going to use for the extra 4' of side wall? What is the existing siding & can you get something that matches?
Stem wall and be done with it.
Joe H

 

[mike93lx]

And what are you going to use for the extra 4' of side wall? What is the existing siding & can you get something that matches?

Joe H

could do stucco or a contrasting color/material as a wainscoting

 

[Rydwny26]

Stem wall. Anything else is going to be a flimsey mess.
And what are you going to use for the extra 4' of side wall? What is the existing siding & can you get something that matches?
Stem wall and be done with it.
Joe H

Maybe a dumb question but why would it be any more flimsy than a traditional pole barn? I would think it would even be more rigid than a pole barn being that each truss would be set on a post. So basically you have a 6x6 sunk 4' in the ground with truss mounted on top and then the rest built like a pole barn. There is no current siding I would be starting fresh with the whatever I chose. I'm not sure what you mean by the extra 4' if sidewall question unless you were referring to the siding as well.

 

[OldNeons]

I agree with Joe above. CONCRETE STEM WALL! You will regret doing anything else. Do it right the first time. This will be rock solid, keep rodents out, allow you to wash inside without water issues, no wood in the ground to rot, etc etc etc.

Not to mention how much faster it will be than all of the "cobbling" to try to maybe make your trusses fit squarely on top of a 6x6.

Did I mention how nice a solid level concrete platform to build your structure on will be? Also it's possible to integrate structural ties for the framework into the concrete.

Look into having the foundation designed so you can pour footings and stem wall all as one unit. Anything other than a concrete base for this structure is asking for trouble and you will long regret it in my opinion.

Good luck!

 

[Rydwny26]

I get where you guys are coming from but the reason I was thinking of other options besides digging a footer and pouring a stem wall is because that pretty much blows my budget. If that's the only way of doing it im better off selling this steel frame, and just building a pole barn. You're probably talking 5-7k just in the footer and stem wall alone I would guess. This barn is going to be used for my pigs, sheep, and probably to pull my tractor and skid steer in out of the weather.

I guess I just don't see how it would be flimsy or cobbled together. If you cut the top foot of a 6x6 into a 4x4 and it slides up into that truss that alone is an anchor point, then it's sandwiched with 2x10's that span the posts as headers and bolted through. It sure seems like it would be a pretty rigid structure. Youd still have your normal 2x6 skirt boards and girts going up the walls as well. I'm not trying to come off as a dik or discredit anyone's knowledge just trying use my resources and think outside the box a little to get a building up that will suit my needs.

 

[firebirdparts]

Converting it to a pole barn is much stronger than perching a little metal building on top of a stem wall. FWIW.

I don't think the pro-stem-wall guys understand what you meant. But then again maybe I don't understand what you meant.

 

[sberry]

The wall would be ideal for livestock and the right way, the 5 to 7 grand is actually economical way to raise it depending on size.

 

[Rydwny26]

Converting it to a pole barn is much stronger than perching a little metal building on top of a stem wall. FWIW.

I don't think the pro-stem-wall guys understand what you meant. But then again maybe I don't understand what you meant.

I'm not sure we are all on the same page either lol. I wish I was handy with sketchup to make it simple for everyone to understand what I'm babbling about.

The wall would be ideal for livestock and the right way, the 5 to 7 grand is actually economical way to raise it depending on size.

5 to 7 grand vs maybe 2 grand for lumber. Why is a stem wall "the right way" vs making it a pole barn?

Let me ask this. If all you had were the metal trusses like the picture in the first post, how would you support them? They are 4x4 square tube.

 

[readhead]

Do you know anything about this material? Was it engineered for a specific purpose? Are there permits involved? We don't know where you are. Are there snow, wind or seismic loads to consider? That is very light gauge material. This material may not be such a good deal. I'm all for some sound DIY engineering but you haven't given me enough information to go on and I am in the steel building business.

 

[driftpin]

You're trying to convince readers that your idea is workable, and people are telling you, "you have a lot to consider here, we need more-information, but you proposal isn't optimal."

Surely you see that a stem-wall is a solid foundation to accept the base members, more-so than cobbling some wood posts? Perhaps you should sell this and buy something that is engineered for your actual needs and don't try to fit the sister's shoe into the glass slipper, it's liable not to-fit.

Also, local building codes, if you have them would dictate if you can do what you want. I think you would need an engineered solution at a minimum, and that is likely to be costly. It's hard to get an engineer around here to do anything for $500 or less. They are accepting a lot of liability, and who knows what the type of steel alloy is? Did you get any manufacturer's documents with the building?

 

[Rydwny26]

Do you know anything about this material? Was it engineered for a specific purpose? Are there permits involved? We don't know where you are. Are there snow, wind or seismic loads to consider? That is very light gauge material. This material may not be such a good deal. I'm all for some sound DIY engineering but you haven't given me enough information to go on and I am in the steel building business.

I don't know a ton about the material and I can't find much info on this building anywhere so it's also one of the things causing me a headache. What I know is it's a 30x40 building, trusses were on 5 foot centers, bolted to a 4x4 metal post, and then bolted to a bottom plate that was secured to a concrete pad. I live in southwest pa so snow and frost heave are issues. I'll have to get a local township permit but that's relatively easy and they don't provide a ton as far as structural requirements and what have you just so long as it conforms to zoning regulations.

If I can't use these trusses or building frame it's not the end of the world, I'm just trying to use what I have.

 

[Rydwny26]

You're trying to convince readers that your idea is workable, and people are telling you, "you have a lot to consider here, we need more-information, but you proposal isn't optimal."

Surely you see that a stem-wall is a solid foundation to accept the base members, more-so than cobbling some wood posts? Perhaps you should sell this and buy something that is engineered for your actual needs and don't try to fit the sister's shoe into the glass slipper, it's liable not to-fit.

Also, local building codes, if you have them would dictate if you can do what you want. I think you would need an engineered solution at a minimum, and that is likely to be costly. It's hard to get an engineer around here to do anything for $500 or less. They are accepting a lot of liability, and who knows what the type of steel alloy is? Did you get any manufacturer's documents with the building?

Sure I realize I have a lot to consider that's why I'm here having this discussion. I agree a stem wall would be a good solid foundation to work off of but that doesn't mean it's the only way to do it and it certainly isn't the most economical. I have no problem ditching my idea all together but no one is telling me WHY it won't work. Once again "cobbling" wood posts? How is what I explained cobbling wood posts? There's thousands upon thousands of pole barns built in that fashion.

 

[ard]

I wish I was handy with sketchup to make it simple for everyone to understand what I'm babbling about.

Can you operate a pencil and paper?

Take a picture of that laying on a table, post it.

(IMO The pre-occupation with drafting/drawing apps is mindboggling. The objective is to transmit enough info to describe a physical design- NOT have a nice, colored, square, perfect little drawing..)

 

[wssix99]

I get where you guys are coming from but the reason I was thinking of other options besides digging a footer and pouring a stem wall is because that pretty much blows my budget.

A pier and beam footing may be best for you. It will be less expensive than a traditional footer and appropriate for the type of structure you are building. Think of a pole barn with a section of structural wall structurally tied to the poles/piers.

 

[Rydwny26]

Can you operate a pencil and paper?

Take a picture of that laying on a table, post it.

(IMO The pre-occupation with drafting/drawing apps is mindboggling. The objective is to transmit enough info to describe a physical design- NOT have a nice, colored, square, perfect little drawing..)

Yea I'll doodle something up here in a little bit that should help clear things up

A pier and beam footing may be best for you. It will be less expensive than a traditional footer and appropriate for the type of structure you are building. Think of a pole barn with a section of structural wall structurally tied to the poles/piers.

This would work great as an alternative to a footer but still doesn't raise the ceiling height of the building.

 

[GMCGarage]

Maybe a dumb question but why would it be any more flimsy than a traditional pole barn? I would think it would even be more rigid than a pole barn being that each truss would be set on a post. So basically you have a 6x6 sunk 4' in the ground with truss mounted on top and then the rest built like a pole barn. There is no current siding I would be starting fresh with the whatever I chose. I'm not sure what you mean by the extra 4' if sidewall question unless you were referring to the siding as well.

anytime you have a discontinuity in a member it provides a 'hinge' point in the structure. The best analogy here for what he is doing would be like building a structure with flexible straws, and the bendy bit is his connection. Sure, you can make it stout, but still would be a weak hinge point.

 

[KenC]

So I plan on building a barn this spring and last year I came across a deal in steel framed building for a killer deal that I bought. Well now I realize that this building won't exactly be ideal for what I want. It only has a 9' ceiling and id like to be at least 12. The building was designed to sit on a concrete pad so initially I thought the only way to increase the ceiling height was to pour a footer and stem wall to then sit the bottom plate on. However I was kicking around some cheaper options and would some opinions on this. The trusses are made from 4x4 square tubing so I was thinking I could set 6x6 posts like you would a pole barn, then notch the top down to a 4x4 which will slide up into the truss about 16". Then sandwich the top of the posts with 2x10 headers along the length that will sit on those notches and bolts through the headers, truss and post. Then on the inside block it out with a 2x6 and then run maybe a 2' 2x6 down the post for more support. Sorry if it's not really to clear of an explanation, just thinking it would be a much easier and more economical way for me to raise the ceiling height.

It would really help if we could see a pic of the entire truss. Are the sidewalls part of the truss and you just need to add a few feet or??? How were the walls attached to the truss and slab?

The little pic leaves a lot of info missing.

with my limited understanding, it seems to me that a few feet of the support post material and a welder is the quickest solution. Longer posts, more wall covering, done.

 

[Homerr]

It would really help if we could see a pic of the entire truss. Are the sidewalls part of the truss and you just need to add a few feet or??? How were the walls attached to the truss and slab?

The little pic leaves a lot of info missing.

with my limited understanding, it seems to me that a few feet of the support post material and a welder is the quickest solution. Longer posts, more wall covering, done.

Looks like lighter gauge galvanized metal though.

 

[Rydwny26]

anytime you have a discontinuity in a member it provides a 'hinge' point in the structure. The best analogy here for what he is doing would be like building a structure with flexible straws, and the bendy bit is his connection. Sure, you can make it stout, but still would be a weak hinge point.

So my train of thought is like this, the truss will be attached to the wood post the same way in was attached to the metal post it's original form. Using a 6x6 post sunk in the ground would be one less point of of attachment than using a stem wall, then attatching the bottom plate and post to the stem wall and then post to truss.

It would really help if we could see a pic of the entire truss. Are the sidewalls part of the truss and you just need to add a few feet or??? How were the walls attached to the truss and slab?

The little pic leaves a lot of info missing.

with my limited understanding, it seems to me that a few feet of the support post material and a welder is the quickest solution. Longer posts, more wall covering, done.

Yea I'm gonna snap a few pics but we have so some snow so hopefully I can get decent enough pics. Each truss sat on a metal 4x4 post that was "male" and slid up into the truss and bolted. Yes just adding a few feet of that square stock would accomplish raising the height but it adds 2 more points of possible failure. A solid 6x6 that is the length I need would accomplish the same thing I would think.

Looks like lighter gauge galvanized metal though.

^this is my problem with trying to add length and weld. In a perfect world id just find the metal posts in the correct length and do away with the current ones

 

[Rydwny26]

Ok hopefully these will help. Here is pics of the full truss, end of truss that would slide over the notch i was talking about, piece of the side wall, male end of original post that the truss sat on, and a sketch of my idea.

 

[readhead]

Was this building up and complete somewhere near you? Did you take it down? Did it have four walls? Just trying to get some background. I sell a similar style building and the whole building is a system. Modifying certain aspects could cause trouble down the road.

 

[Rydwny26]

Was this building up and complete somewhere near you? Did you take it down? Did it have four walls? Just trying to get some background. I sell a similar style building and the whole building is a system. Modifying certain aspects could cause trouble down the road.

It was a standing frame when I looked at it then they disassembled it a I went and picked it up. It had 4 walls but the 2 open ends were just framed in with metal 2x4's

 

[KenC]

If that is 14ga or thicker, I thing welding and extension would work. If you have any doubts you could insert an internal brace plug welded to the two pieces. Or even better, if you can locate some similar tubing that would slip over the uprights. An overlap of a foot or so would help and maybe even allow you to do this with 16 ga.

structural welding of those thicknesses is done every day in car factories everywhere.

 

[readhead]

I suspect that it started life as a carport. There was probably no engineering for the original structure. The 4x4 tubing suggests that someone had knowledge of local snow conditions.

I think that your biggest problem may be permiting the new structure. You will have no information on this material or the truss construction. If that is not an issue then ask around and see if you can find the original supplier and get new legs or extensions for the ones you have. The curved corners are not uncommon but not ideal for the kind of roof you should install. A corner bracket will square up the corners and then install purlins at about two foot on center and apply the roof sheeting the correct way.

 

[LX-Markham]

Sure I realize I have a lot to consider that's why I'm here having this discussion. I agree a stem wall would be a good solid foundation to work off of but that doesn't mean it's the only way to do it and it certainly isn't the most economical.

The reason everybody here is suggesting a stem wall as the best solution to raising the height is it does not involve modifying the existing structure. Your suggestion of simply extending the verticals would involve checking and re-engineering those trusses. Since there is no other information available to actually do that, the stem wall is much simpler.

Realizing that is not the answer you are here looking for.

I think that your biggest problem may be permiting the new structure. You will have no information on this material or the truss construction.

exactly this.

 

[Rydwny26]

6

I suspect that it started life as a carport. There was probably no engineering for the original structure. The 4x4 tubing suggests that someone had knowledge of local snow conditions.

I think that your biggest problem may be permiting the new structure. You will have no information on this material or the truss construction. If that is not an issue then ask around and see if you can find the original supplier and get new legs or extensions for the ones you have. The curved corners are not uncommon but not ideal for the kind of roof you should install. A corner bracket will square up the corners and then install purlins at about two foot on center and apply the roof sheeting the correct way.

I'd guess it was some type if car port as well. I was thinking with the the rounded corners I could follow the roofline with 2x4's and make a corner bracket to the header creating an eve. The building did have strips of metal going across the trusses and walls like purlins but I don't believe the provided much for structure, more so just as something to screw the tin to. I do still have all those pieces though.

The reason everybody here is suggesting a stem wall as the best solution to raising the height is it does not involve modifying the existing structure. Your suggestion of simply extending the verticals would involve checking and re-engineering those trusses. Since there is no other information available to actually do that, the stem wall is much simpler.

Realizing that is not the answer you are here looking for.


exactly this.

I see. Why would they need re-enginerred though? They are being fixed to a post in the same fashion in which they were designed originally, also with even more support. That 6x6 solid post is much stronger than the the galvanized 4x4 it was previously attached to. The truss isn't being contorted to do anything other than what it already did on that 4x4 metal post. If anything I believe doing this way provides a more solid structure than the original building. I will concede to the fact that I don't have engineered drawings of the trusses and don't know what they are rated for and what not. My argument is that I'm not asking any more from the truss than what it already accomplished in it's old form and I believe I'm providing an even better mount for it.

I can agree with the comment about getting it permitted though, I'm not sure how to approach that yet. I understand the stem wall and how simplistic it is in theory but Its more than 5x as expensive.

 

[readhead]

As far as the building department is concerned you are starting from scratch. They are not interested in the fact that it was already up. It probably didn't have a permit the first time. They will want calculations and reactions for the truss components and the columns also in this case since they are part of the truss. You may be better off selling this material and using the money to start fresh.

 

[Rydwny26]

As far as the building department is concerned you are starting from scratch. They are not interested in the fact that it was already up. It probably didn't have a permit the first time. They will want calculations and reactions for the truss components and the columns also in this case since they are part of the truss. You may be better off selling this material and using the money to start fresh.

Ah ok, so the problem would necessarily be with my design it's providing the proper documentation to support it. I wish I knew the manufacturer to see what kind of information I could get off of them.

 

[PugetDude]

Ah ok, so the problem would necessarily be with my design it's providing the proper documentation to support it. I wish I knew the manufacturer to see what kind of information I could get off of them.

Add your location to your profile, so the GJ can suggest local carport manufacturers... You should be able to match up the components, they may even sell you the correct height posts and a set of generic truss calculations.
Identify the manufacturer, walk in with photos and a sample and tell them "sell me everything I need to make this a 12' building."
Impossible to help if we don't know whether you're in Poughkeepsie or Pakistan.

 

[Toomanytools?]

What part of the world are you in? If you are putting this up on the back 40 somewhere then maybe a permit isn't needed. Otherwise it's hard to put this structure up and not have someone notice it, county assessor, building inspector, neighbor. Then you will need some sort of engineering stamp of approval.
That said I have seen exactly what you are proposing, it was a carport frame 4" square tube about a 12' span. The guy wanted to park a motorhome under it so he set 6x6 laminated PT posts in the ground the middle was a 4x4. He put the trusses over the 4x4 bolted it down added a few girts around the building covered it in metal and done.

Was it right? Maybe not, worked for him.
Have you looked for the 4x4 metal legs in the height you want? Might be the same cost as a 6x6 post.
Again I think it's all a moot point until you figure out permitting or not.
Good Luck

 

[Rydwny26]

Add your location to your profile, so the GJ can suggest local carport manufacturers... You should be able to match up the components, they may even sell you the correct height posts and a set of generic truss calculations.
Identify the manufacturer, walk in with photos and a sample and tell them "sell me everything I need to make this a 12' building."
Impossible to help if we don't know whether you're in Poughkeepsie or Pakistan.

What part of the world are you in? If you are putting this up on the back 40 somewhere then maybe a permit isn't needed. Otherwise it's hard to put this structure up and not have someone notice it, county assessor, building inspector, neighbor. Then you will need some sort of engineering stamp of approval.
That said I have seen exactly what you are proposing, it was a carport frame 4" square tube about a 12' span. The guy wanted to park a motorhome under it so he set 6x6 laminated PT posts in the ground the middle was a 4x4. He put the trusses over the 4x4 bolted it down added a few girts around the building covered it in metal and done.

Was it right? Maybe not, worked for him.
Have you looked for the 4x4 metal legs in the height you want? Might be the same cost as a 6x6 post.
Again I think it's all a moot point until you figure out permitting or not.
Good Luck

I live in Bulger Pennsylvania zip code 15019, in a rural township on 20 acres. I know a permit is required by the township but it's usually just go down to the municipal fill out the application and pay the fee. I'll have to look further into what else may be required.

I can't seem to find much in the way of options for taller leg posts, it's one of the reasons I came up with all this in the first place.

 

[LX-Markham]

Why would they need re-enginerred though? They are being fixed to a post in the same fashion in which they were designed originally, also with even more support.

Because the truss forms the top part of a moment frame that is giving the structure stability. If you increase the height of the structure it will see more wind load and thus more overturning moment that the truss must resist. Not saying the trusses won’t resist that force, but we don’t know.

 

[Rydwny26]

Because the truss forms the top part of a moment frame that is giving the structure stability. If you increase the height of the structure it will see more wind load and thus more overturning moment that the truss must resist. Not saying the trusses won’t resist that force, but we don’t know.

Ahhh ok I see what you're saying, that's something I didn't think of. So basically I need the drawings for the trusses to determine ratings and such to understand whether or not they would work.

 

[wssix99]

This would work great as an alternative to a footer but still doesn't raise the ceiling height of the building.

You would just make the beam 4' deep.

However; seeing the pictures you posted, it would be far less expensive just to pay a local engineer to design extension posts for you and make the thing a pole barn. Hundreds for the professional will be less than the thousands for the foundations. (They would also be able to specify any stiffeners you would need for wind loads, etc.)

 

[Firebrick43]

Buy two shipping containers and set them on top. Raises the structure, provides strength, and lockable storage.

 

[Rydwny26]

Buy two shipping containers and set them on top. Raises the structure, provides strength, and lockable storage.

I like the way you think. That's actually not a bad idea, it would essentially be a 30x40 building with a lean to on each side.

 

[d300]

...can you buy 2 sea-cons for less than the cost of the stem wall? Yes, additional secure storage has big value so it is a bit of a trade. You will still need some sort of foundation to park the sea-cons on....sitting them in the mud won't cut it.

 

[readhead]

That's assuming the building department will allow containers with a roof. Not a bad idea at first but can create another problem. That is a fairly common practice around here. The best way is to set the containers and install trusses that are the full width so snow can shed off the roof. If the truss's only cover the space between the containers the snow has no where to go and can lead to a collapsed roof. When you own a crane service you get to see all kinds of things that fall down.

 

[Rydwny26]

...can you buy 2 sea-cons for less than the cost of the stem wall? Yes, additional secure storage has big value so it is a bit of a trade. You will still need some sort of foundation to park the sea-cons on....sitting them in the mud won't cut it.

Yea I was thinking about that also. What about some type of pier foundation to set them on? The additional storage space would be huge. Also with the sea cons, I could put some pig pens in there and it would be super easy to clean with that steel floor.

That's assuming the building department will allow containers with a roof. Not a bad idea at first but can create another problem. That is a fairly common practice around here. The best way is to set the containers and install trusses that are the full width so snow can shed off the roof. If the truss's only cover the space between the containers the snow has no where to go and can lead to a collapsed roof. When you own a crane service you get to see all kinds of things that fall down.

What if you were able to span the trusses between the containers but follow the roof pitch to the outside of the container? If done right it would create even more storage on top of the containers.