Why so much waste during garage build?

[Jarwop]

>Originally Posted by Jack_Toepfer View Post
>I’ll try to answer a few, but wanted to address this one specifically.
>There is a mountain of UNTOUCHED lumber on the floor of the garage. I’ve >attached pics. 20’ 2x10s, probably 100 10’ 2x6s, 2x8s everywhere.
>
>I didn’t bring my lumber to the party, I’m doing draws like construction loans >would typically do, only I am giving them cash.

Did the builder quote a fixed price for labor and a fixed price for material?

If so, and he asked later for more material money, what would you think? (He under bid to get the job!)

If it is fixed price for material, then it is his material and not yours. You get the finished building for the fixed price of labor and material he quoted.

 

[larry4406]

The waste is awful.

Quite common for our companies stick built homes (4-5000 SF) to go thru 2-3 30 yard dumpsters of lumber waste. House is under roof in 7 days though...

The "framers" grab the first piece of lumber that is closest to them. Doesn't seem to matter to them to take 16' sticks and cut it up into blocking, and when it is too short to safely hold while using a skill saw, chuck it. Oh, and then use nice lumber for temporary bracing, put 30 nails into it to hold the wall, then remove and chuck it in the dumpster vs pulling the nails. Oh and then order a hack of studs for punchout to then use only 1/3-1/2 but at least there was more than enough to ensure they could finish in one trip!

20 years ago I had a framing crew and there was an older man on the crew that all he did was cull the lumber, remove nails, stack by length, and then run a miter saw for all the off-cut needs. Same house and less than half of one dumpster when under roof.

Our framers DON'T provide the lumber which is the problem. In their view, minimizing their hours on a fixed price framing contract is all that matters and too bad if the GC's lumber costs go up.

Drives me nuts! I have lobbied for turn key framing and lumber supply as well as changing to panel construction but no go.

 

[DFB]

Wow I find all this hack contractor waste hilarious, I grew up knowing a few top notch home builders. scraps ya but never "piles" of waste. Like some of these guys have said short pieces become blocking and nailers till its too small to be useful anymore, but I will admit the lumber used to be a lot better and much does really **** these days. Often there are a lot pieces too cupped and bowed to be very useful for framing at all, especially if it just sent by the supplier. And can warp fast after they are unbanded too What's up with KD anyways I recently bought 6 2x4 for a workbench frame and eyed everyone at the lumberyard and after a week in my garage 4 out 6 warped and 2 were virtually unusable for my needs but I made them work using shims and no one will ever see it

The last floor I did too with shiplap pine was unbelievable the percentage of board that weren't very straight made things harder than it should be.




When I took the apprentice test for the union all them years ago they gave 3 plans and pile of lumber to each trainee and only one piece in that pile was 16ft. If you cut that one wrong you failed the test because there would be one project you wouldn't be able to complete. So you had to figure your cuts right!

I was also taught in training if someone bends over to check your work to close kick 'em the ***

 

[Jack_Toepfer]

$50k was the price. Each payment has an action assigned to it.
$5000 down payment
$10000 concrete
$10000 lumber
$10000 framing
$10000 siding and roof
$5000 doors and finishing

So, if he quoted me $10k for lumber, looks like I bought a bit extra?

For reference the first pile on the right is 20’ of 2x10.

 

[jd_1138]

Did the plans come with a materials cut list for the carpenters to work from? If so, it'd be simple for them to have one guy making all the cuts and labeling them and stacking them up near the build site. Less waste that way -- saves you time on the materials AND the contractors' hours (unless they're not being paid hourly).

I guess the proof is in the pudding. If the carpenter doesn't tell you you need to buy more lumber, then there was enough lumber there and they didn't cut it in a boneheaded way.

Maybe tell the lumberyard you want to return the unused stuff that wasn't cut. If they sold you too much. I imagine you can sell it though pretty easily, if they refuse the material that was cut.

 

[Jack_Toepfer]

I hear ya. Just wasn’t used to this much based off of the few years I built houses. Wasn’t sure if times had changed so much that it was “worth” it to waste so much.

 

[Randy in Maine]

My 40'x28x12' garage was built out of SIPS/trusses.

I had maybe 2 pick up truck loads of waste anything from the construction. We pay about $120 a ton for stuff going to the dump.

 

[jd_1138]

My 40'x28x12' garage was built out of SIPS/trusses.

I had maybe 2 pick up truck loads of waste anything from the construction. We pay about $120 a ton for stuff going to the dump.

Wood? You could probably have sat that out front with a "free" sign on it, and it would've disappeared. Even the small stuff is useful when building shelving, outdoor furniture, etc..

 

[rangda]

I'm in the middle of a 24x25 garage + 6x12 breezway build right now. The framers generated about 2 trash barrels of waste wood. The siding guys were worse around 3 barrels of waste. The stairs generated another barrel or so of waste, mostly from all the 45 cuts.

 

[James-W]

I'm in the middle of a 24x25 garage + 6x12 breezway build right now. The framers generated about 2 trash barrels of waste wood. The siding guys were worse around 3 barrels of waste. The stairs generated another barrel or so of waste, mostly from all the 45 cuts.

Welcome to the forum.

When doing siding you want to try to avoid using a lot of small pieces. You want as few seems as is possible. Because of that you do tend to end up with more waste but the job will look a lot nicer if you avoid using too many small pieces.

 

[PugetDude]

When I was framing my cabin, any board that got cut off was immediately marked with the length with a construction crayon and set aside by the miter saw. If I needed something les than a stock length it was easy to scan the offcuts for something suitable. Sometimes I was taking off a sawkerf width...Almost zero waste, nothing over 2'-3' long.

Of course, I was buying the materials and my time was my own... just couldn't stand the idea of cutting blocking/headers/ window jacks out of full-length prime framing lumber.

 

[Mikeske]

When I had my pole building built the contractor provided everything. The building was built and the pile of scrap wood would fit on a pallet about 2 feet high. The GC was awesome. I then had him over for more projects. They built my carport, covered front and back porches and my old pole building had never had the floor done. In all of this they only took back some uncut cedar boards from the back porch which was the wrong size. That pallet of wood ended up being on all the projects no higher then 3 feet high. I still pull chunks off of it for other projects around my place but mainly used for something odd I need.

 

[mmb617]

When I built my garage and on any other project I was very careful about not having waste. Cutoffs were saved and if I needed a short piece they would be checked to see if one of them could be used before cutting a new piece. There was very little waste, but I wasn't concerned about how fast I could get the job done.

I can see that a contractor couldn't afford to spend the time I did minimizing waste, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't care about it at all. There is a middle ground that balances speed and waste management. Some of the practices mentioned here like grabbing a new 16' piece and cutting it down when there are smaller pieces that would work all around just makes no sense at all.

 

[Mpower5266]

I am in the middle of an addition, and I asked my contractor about all the scrap when I came home and saw this.

Untitled by mpower5266, on Flickr

He said anything cut I could keep if I wanted, but it usually goes in to the dumpster or the workers take it for projects. Anything untouched goes back to lumber yard for a credit and he orders extra so if there is an issue they arent waiting on a shipment. A few days later the builder's teenaged son made the mess look like this, granted after several "phone breaks."

Untitled by mpower5266, on Flickr

 

[lakeroadster]

$50k was the price. Each payment has an action assigned to it.
$5000 down payment
$10000 concrete
$10000 lumber
$10000 framing
$10000 siding and roof
$5000 doors and finishing

So, if he quoted me $10k for lumber, looks like I bought a bit extra?

For reference the first pile on the right is 20’ of 2x10.

Those are progress payments, just round about numbers so you have a warm fuzzy feeling when making the payment.

I felt the same way as you during my barn build. Here is what I learned.

You bought a garage at a fixed price... when they are done if you have a garage that you are happy with, they have met the original agreement.

 

[850xpeps]

When I built my garage and on any other project I was very careful about not having waste. Cutoffs were saved and if I needed a short piece they would be checked to see if one of them could be used before cutting a new piece. There was very little waste, but I wasn't concerned about how fast I could get the job done.

I can see that a contractor couldn't afford to spend the time I did minimizing waste, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't care about it at all. There is a middle ground that balances speed and waste management. Some of the practices mentioned here like grabbing a new 16' piece and cutting it down when there are smaller pieces that would work all around just makes no sense at all.

Your wrong with wasting time on cutoffs. We can build fine and use cutoffs at little to no expense in time as that goes to how we treat cutoffs. We don’t throw them 500’ away we know what we need during the day and make sure it’s close.


We also keep the job site clean at the end of the days. It’s part of our work we do. Clean site.

 

[Gerry347]

You bought a garage at a fixed price... when they are done if you have a garage that you are happy with, they have met the original agreement.

You are spot on man.... We might not like or agree how some things are done but as long as what you agreed to pay for was completed as ordered then everything's good.

 

[myredracer]

A good framing crew/carpenter leaves a very small scrap at the end - it's just that simple. Oftentimes, if you supply the material, there's no incentive to be efficient so can end up with a lot of expensive waste like in above pics. Some guys will grab what's closest and cut a short piece off because it's not coming out of their pockets. Pretty shameful waste of natural resources. If someone unnecessarily cuts little pieces off full lengths, you can in some cases have to make a run to the lumber yard to get more full lengths and end up wasting a LOT of time in the process. Getting rid of a pile of scrap can be a problem too and some jurisdictions won't allow burning of construction waste (like here).

Even pieces of 2x4 and 2x6 under 14-1/2" can be useful during the back framing stage. I hired a crew to frame our 7K+ house & attached garage and there was almost no scrap left over. I did all the back framing that was needed and ended up having to buy quite a few 8' lengths to slice up into little pieces. I couldn't believe how many short pieces were needed by the time I was done.

KD lumber has a max. moisture content by code but there is just so much dimensional lumber out there nowadays that is 2nd & 3rd growth and has wide growth rings and some is just gonna warp and cup no matter what. Sometimes it sits outside unprotected and gets wet. Sometimes you can make relief cuts in studs already in place to straighten them out enough for drywall. Just a normal part of the job. If it's too warped on the ground they can usually be used for something. I've had KD 2x6 shrink more than it should to 5" wide in the heat of the summer. I remember the days (decades ago) when lumber was mostly tight grain Douglas fir but in recent times the quality has gotten so much worse that span tables in building codes had to be revised. When it comes to cedar, the 2nd and newer growth lumber isn't like old growth and will rot easily. And then, a lot of the top grade stuff gets shipped to Asia and we get the leftovers...

Sometimes lumber yards buy lots of lumber at auction. I bought a few slings of 2x4 to 2x12 KD spruce when building a previous house and when I got part way through the piles found fungus and rot. About 1/2 of it was unusable for anything. Lumber yard refused to do anything and had to file a small claims court action before they took it back. Rotten wood makes lousy firewood.

 

[nes999]

You paid x amount efor a garage any extra is the builders whether he gives you it or not its his choice. I must agree that 20% waste is what we generally hear. If a carpenter has to waste an extra 15-30 seconds looking for a board that fits vs just grabbing one. That is 23.7-47 cents in labor extra per board. Multiply that by the entire crew it adds up. (Note in my local area carpenter scale is 54 per hour before bennies).

Now lets say they play as little scrap game and run short. Let's make it simple and assume the yard is 20 min away. You have to pay a worker to drive to and from, plus fuel. Next thing you know that 10 dollars in wood cost you and additional 60 bucks.

Its easy to talk about how little scrap there is when you work on your own stuff. Your time isn't coming out of your pocket directly. You cant exactly expect it to be profitable to have someone cut a board, mark the length with a lumber crayon then stack it. Then measure what he needs then sort through the used stock to find if something fits/what fits the best.

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[myredracer]

I am in the middle of an addition, and I asked my contractor about all the scrap when I came home and saw this.

Couldn't help noticing the '02. Nice! I used to be really into them and had a number of them including a couple of Tiis.

 

[850xpeps]

You paid x amount efor a garage any extra is the builders whether he gives you it or not its his choice. I must agree that 20% waste is what we generally hear. If a carpenter has to waste an extra 15-30 seconds looking for a board that fits vs just grabbing one. That is 23.7-47 cents in labor extra per board. Multiply that by the entire crew it adds up. (Note in my local area carpenter scale is 54 per hour before bennies).

Now lets say they play as little scrap game and run short. Let's make it simple and assume the yard is 20 min away. You have to pay a worker to drive to and from, plus fuel. Next thing you know that 10 dollars in wood cost you and additional 60 bucks.

Its easy to talk about how little scrap there is when you work on your own stuff. Your time isn't coming out of your pocket directly. You cant exactly expect it to be profitable to have someone cut a board, mark the length with a lumber crayon then stack it. Then measure what he needs then sort through the used stock to find if something fits/what fits the best.

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54 an hr plus benefits holy. Where do I sign up.

 

[nes999]

54 an hr plus benefits holy. Where do I sign up.

Union carpenter in my area. They used to try and force us to have one when setting forms even though that's laborer work.

Iron workers make more. Ironcally the iron worker stayed in his truck the entire day while one of my laborers did his job (tightening 16 bolts). Eh the contract required ironworkers and we had one.

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[ford33]

If you like the carpenters work then you are so much ahead of others who have had bad experience with construction quality. It is easier to fix too much material than it is to fix bad construction.

Just return the extra material that you can and give away the rest. Put an add on Craigslist "free" section. It will be gone.

 

[BC1]

You are spot on man.... We might not like or agree how some things are done but as long as what you agreed to pay for was completed as ordered then everything's good.

This is the only thing that matters. If it's done on time and you're happy with the product, who cares? It's the builders lumber as well, you paid for a building.

Some of these responses are akin to yelling at your butcher because the steak you bought must have had too much wasteful trimming.

 

[77Birdman]

Its easy to use the time is money argument, that if they take an extra 30 seconds picking thru lumber it will cost so much more by the end of the day multiplied by so many workers. This isn't reality though. I am sure there is plenty of time wasted on dumber things than picking a straight board. Most of the young guys I see on jobs spend as much time on their cell phones as they do working. I have been building for 35 yrs and know very well the value of a unit of time. On the lighter side, my uncle would go around the job site at break times and pick up nails, if they were bent he would straiten them. Also, if we threw a board on the ground with a nail in it Pop would blow a gasket. I am a 4th generation builder and learned things the old school way.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

"a couple of grand"??

56 four foot 2x6s is $250

Where's the other 1750?




All you can do is stack it, save it, use it...like an Indian with the buffalo...knee walls, bracing, fire blocking, nailers for trim, E box supports, firewood, kindling....

tooth picks in the end.

There's lots of places short pieces of material get used up on

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

I lost track of how this all started out,but I'd say it all depends on how it was bid.
If I bid a plumbing job for say $10,000.00 plus fixtures all materials excluding the actual fixtures are included in my price.
So if I show up with a truckload of extra copper and pvc and related fittings they're still my property when the job is done.
I don't normally show up with an exact number of any particular piece,it takes too much time.
Same goes for wiring or hvac work.
Now if I'm just supplying labor on the job,like I do for a couple contractors I still do work for because they think it saves them money. Then the bones left over are theirs unless they tell me to keep them.
If I'm supplying the labor and materials for a project for for a bid job and I'm having Ferguson deliver plumbing materials it's sometimes cheaper for me to have them bring extra materials.
It helps allow for things I forget,or get screwed up/broke in the process of the job.
But at the end of the job the extra parts I ordered are still mine as long as I'm supplying all materials and not adding them on as extras on the original estimate.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Of course, because you're the one paying.

For one of the GC's I've heard of around here, he has his engineers plan out exactly how many of everything is needed - for example, for plumbing, you need X number of 1/2" elbows, etc. He only pays for that exact material; if you're the plumber and you mess up and need another one, it's on the plumbers dime.

Untill the carpenter or concrete guy screws up and puts something in the wrong place causing extra work and materials for the plumber/electrician or hvac guy.
That's why I don't deal with contractors like that,even when we did multi million dollar projects back in the day there was always room for extra labor and materials figured in the estimate.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

>Originally Posted by Jack_Toepfer View Post
>I’ll try to answer a few, but wanted to address this one specifically.
>There is a mountain of UNTOUCHED lumber on the floor of the garage. I’ve >attached pics. 20’ 2x10s, probably 100 10’ 2x6s, 2x8s everywhere.
>
>I didn’t bring my lumber to the party, I’m doing draws like construction loans >would typically do, only I am giving them cash.

Did the builder quote a fixed price for labor and a fixed price for material?

If so, and he asked later for more material money, what would you think? (He under bid to get the job!)

If it is fixed price for material, then it is his material and not yours. You get the finished building for the fixed price of labor and material he quoted.

 

[aabirdman]

Looks like they still has some walls and stairs to do. However if they are done with all the framing i'd return it. If you paid the lumber company then its your dime get some of it back. If the contractor paid the lumber company then its his lost and he's wasting money. It will catch him one day.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

$50k was the price. Each payment has an action assigned to it.
$5000 down payment
$10000 concrete
$10000 lumber
$10000 framing
$10000 siding and roof
$5000 doors and finishing

So, if he quoted me $10k for lumber, looks like I bought a bit extra?

For reference the first pile on the right is 20’ of 2x10.

So it sounds to me like he bid the job for $50,000.00 including materials,the extras are his then.
No room to ***** about wasted materials on your end.

 

[Justanoldguy]

Looks like they still has some walls and stairs to do. However if they are done with all the framing i'd return it. If you paid the lumber company then its your dime get some of it back. If the contractor paid the lumber company then its his lost and he's wasting money. It will catch him one day.

It seems like a price to do the full job was accepted by Jack.
Anything left over does not belong to Jack.
It belongs to the contractor.
The contractor obviously paid the lumber supplier so the left over is his to keep or return.
No complicated issues involved here.

 

[doctordirt]

Agreed, 50,000. Is cost

 

[jd_1138]

Looks like they still has some walls and stairs to do. However if they are done with all the framing i'd return it. If you paid the lumber company then its your dime get some of it back. If the contractor paid the lumber company then its his lost and he's wasting money. It will catch him one day.

They need lumber to build those walls and stairs. Maybe that's what all that leftover material is for?

 

[lakeroadster]

Aforementioned post... The guys here educated me on this topic...

Left Over Lumber... Mine, Right?

 

[Jack_Toepfer]

The scrap is mine, we agreed to it. The “extra” is sitting there untouched, and it’s his. I agree.

The question was why is there so much waste. Doesn’t matter who paid for what or who owns what, it’s the waste that was a concern to me.

If the new stuff can be returned and that’s what he does - great. No problem there, but there are a LOT of pieces there, would take a lot of mistakes to use it up.

So far the Construction looks good. Was supposed to be done before Christmas... so there is that.

Siding was delivered today, COD... no heads up from contractor and no response to inquiry. Good thing I was home.

 

[lakeroadster]

The question was why is there so much waste. Doesn’t matter who paid for what or who owns what, it’s the waste that was a concern to me.

Why did I buy studs that were 4’ too long and then pay guys to cut them? Anyone have any ideas?.

I guess we misunderstood... nonetheless.

Got a wood burning fireplace or know somebody that does?

The smaller drops are great for kindling.

All the rest is great for odd jobs and projects.

 

[Jack_Toepfer]

I see your point John. Whether he paid for the 4’ of scrap or I did, it’s still a waste. At the end of the day, I’m paying for it whether it’s in the burn pile or in the wall, and I don’t have money to burn.

The boys and I will probably use every inch that I recovered.

 

[86turbodsl]

Sometimes the lumber yard pads the take off. On my house build, the take off was done by the lumber yard who also provided financing. WAY more material showed up than needed to build. I had a WHOLE PALLET of ice guard of which i used maybe 1/3. Didn't get a chance to take it back. i'm still trying to get rid of it 8 years later. I had sheets and sheets of osb and lumber left over. Same with the drywall guy. He even admitted they usually take the drywall left over and do jobs for themselves with it. The lumber yard charged me for it and it padded the loan.

 

[MrSurly]

When I built mine since I did it all myself and on a budget, I bought all the lumber according to the plan. I didn't originally buy the '% extra for waste', I just bought the plan and as I neared the end of the framing I went for a few boards as needed. I had the luxury, of course, of not having to race a clock, so I was not forced to over-buy as I could 'get that other 2x6 tomorrow'. I had one burn pit of scrap lumber cuts and almost no leftover boards. I bought a 2500ct box of Paslode nails and ended with a single rack + eight nails left over.
Where I was impressed was with the metal package that came from Michiana Metals. I sent them my drawings, talked with Richard, they calculated and sent the metal. 4700lbs of steel in four colors and two gauges and a lot of screws. At the completion of the build I went to the scrap yard with 180 lbs of steel scrap. I was quite impressed by the accuracy of the metal package with