Hey AC Gurus! Is this Fraud?

[mpire]

I have a condo downtown that I rent out. I just got a new tenant and she is a young woman, seems nice enough.

She says the AC is broken and won't even turn on. I get a call from my property manager and they sent out their preferred contractor guy to fix the unit.

The unit is an old GE unit. It doesn't leak refrigerant, and its pretty solid all around despite being really old and looking old.

Anyway, there is a breaker inside, and there is one right next to the compressor on the outside wall. I had flipped them both off because the power was cut off as my last tenant disappeared in the night after 2.5 years.

I assume that one of the breakers were off, I was using the AC a couple weeks ago when I was cleaning the carpet. It was blowing cold enough to dehumidify the carpet.

Anyway, I stop by to look at the unit and they took off the top of the outside unit and disconnected the power wires to the compressor and and taped them off then stuffed them under the compressor.

Is there any reason to disconnect the compressor power supply at the compressor and not at the contactor 8 inches away?

I have my AC guy Sean going by in the morning to look at it, he doesn't know why anyone would open the main housing other than to replace the fan on top of the unit. The fan works just fine.

Anyway, they told my property manager that it was a total loss and I needed a whole new system and gave an outrageous quote. Which is what EVERY AC company says other than Sean who doesn't ******** me.

I've used Sean for 10+ years, he is worth a little extra for the service call.

But this guy went further than anyone and disconnected wires and hid them so it definitely wouldn't work even if both breakers were on.

That really doesn't feel right to me.

What do you think?

 

[Rock knocker]

Hey AC Gurus! Is this Fraud?

Maybe. Did you give the "preferred contractor" any money? If no, then no fraud occurred.

If the answer is yes, was any money for anything other than a service call? If no, no fraud occurred. If yes, then fraud occurred, but you have no case.

Fraud is a criminal matter, so you will have to contact the police.

And neith you nor the police will have any proof that the "preferred contractor" committed a crime.

 

[sreeb]

Sounds more like vandalism.

 

[ddawg16]

sounds like a scam to me. Wires don't tape themselves.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

sounds like you should of called Sean in the first place.

I can't for the life of me think of any reason he would go threw the trouble of disconnecting those wires at the compressor unless it's like you said "some kind of scam"

I'll bet when he hooks the wires back up it's starts right up.

 

[SALIV8]

When diagnosing a compressor I've rung out the legs of the comp. maybe these guys did that and found the windings shorted. I always disconnect the wires also.

 

[driftpin]

I'm not an electrician, but to keep a dangerous electrical component from getting re-energized, that seems like the prudent thing to do. Was there any mention in their report of having-done this? I would think that is probably where I would double-check.

 

[Strouty]

I would be curious to hear what Sean says. He will know if the thing is junk or not. As others have said, they may have discoed it due to sparks or some internal issue, so someone would not turn the thing back on. Or they are total Aholes and did this in order to get more money out of you.

 

[mpire]

There is no reason not to hook the wires back up even if you had a reason to disconnect them.

I have a management company, and they cost me two months rent, but I'm terrible at renting my condos. I'm not a salesman, and I know my shortcomings.

There is friction when they send out contractors that regularly attempt to rip me off. The dryer repair guy wanted $400 to install a $15 heating coil. I have to scrutinize every repair charge.

The AC issues just don't add up and then the wires disconnected throws all kinds of red flags.

 

[Trey T]

I wouldn't say that it's 100% fraud or something to that extent, but most of us know what you mean.

You do have a very good assumption, but it's cheaper to get a second opinion. You should call'em out, both the management company and the tech (or HVAC company). You pay management company for both of their labor and competent. If anybody is ripping you off, it's the management company - that's how I look at it.

 

[Bretny]

Sounds like you need to have a serious talk with the "property manager" let him know that no one should be touching your property unless instructed to do so.

Hire your own people and sounds like Sean is a good knowledgeable guy. house AC is not rocket science and many old systems dont even have a high/low cut off so there quity simple.

Take pictures before you hook the power back up and save them. If it happens again i would be calling the cops. Might be worth calling them now and having them make a report.

 

[ybnormal70]

I would say if you hook it back up and turn the breakers back on and everything works, yes they were trying to SCAM you into buying a new unit from them. If you hook it back up and turn the breakers back on and it still doesn't work, then that is a different story.

Kevin

 

[EOC_Jason]

Depends on what your AC tech says...

Usually the only reason to disconnect the wires from the compressor is when you are going to have to swap out compressors... In some cases I've seen a fried wired or two when the compressor locks up and the breaker doesn't trip (or trip right away)... Or some animal get the munchies... Did you inspect the wiring & contactor?

Other than that I honestly can't think of a good reason... Maybe just incompetent?

Maybe the property manager gets a kickback from his "preferred AC guy" when they do big jobs like that?

 

[TRWham]

When diagnosing a compressor I've rung out the legs of the comp. maybe these guys did that and found the windings shorted. I always disconnect the wires also.

Exactly. The only way to test the windings accurately is to disconnect from everything else. If he condemned the compressor, there would have been no reason to reconnect the leads.

 

[eddieK]

There is no reason not to hook the wires back up even if you had a reason to disconnect them.

I have a management company, and they cost me two months rent, but I'm terrible at renting my condos. I'm not a salesman, and I know my shortcomings.

There is friction when they send out contractors that regularly attempt to rip me off. The dryer repair guy wanted $400 to install a $15 heating coil. I have to scrutinize every repair charge.

The AC issues just don't add up and then the wires disconnected throws all kinds of red flags.

If I found a compressor shorted (shorting to the casing) I do disconnect and leave the wires disconnected because I was the last person to work on the unit...if I did reconnect them and told the tenant not to run it...and they did anyway, I could be held liable if the direct 220v short caused damage at the panel or worse yet... a fire.

Is there a spot on the compressor where some paint was scraped away. The proper way to ohm the compressor is at the compressor contacts.

BUT - I always make it very clear in writing exactly what I did and WHY.

 

[eddieK]

I would say if you hook it back up and turn the breakers back on and everything works, yes they were trying to SCAM you into buying a new unit from them. If you hook it back up and turn the breakers back on and it still doesn't work, then that is a different story.

Kevin

Dangerous - Before you hook it back up and possibly send a direct short to the panel... Talk to the company that disconnected the wires.

 

[EOC_Jason]

Oh yeah... Forgot about this instance... Very true...

If I found a compressor shorted (shorting to the casing) I do disconnect and leave the wires disconnected because I was the last person to work on the unit...if I did reconnect them and told the tenant not to run it...and they did anyway, I could be held liable if the direct 220v short caused damage at the panel or worse yet... a fire.

Is there a spot on the compressor where some paint was scraped away. The proper way to ohm the compressor is at the compressor contacts.

BUT - I always make it very clear in writing exactly what I did and WHY.

 

[tyme2par4]

When I was in high school, my parents had taken a week vacation to go to Canada. One day the smoke alarms went off and I ran down stairs and the basement was full of smoke. Shut the boiler down and opened the bulkhead and used a fan to clear it out.
I called to oil company and they sent a guy out that day to take a look. I bulled the burner off and disassembled a few things before telling me the whole boiler was shot and needed to be replaced. I called my dad, and they were going to be back in 2 days, so he said just wait and he'll take a look.
Turned out the thing was just really dirty. He called the oil company and they sent another tech out. He cleaned the whole thing out and put it back together and it ran for another 10 years.

 

[bonneyman]

If I found a compressor shorted (shorting to the casing) I do disconnect and leave the wires disconnected because I was the last person to work on the unit...if I did reconnect them and told the tenant not to run it...and they did anyway, I could be held liable if the direct 220v short caused damage at the panel or worse yet... a fire.

Is there a spot on the compressor where some paint was scraped away. The proper way to ohm the compressor is at the compressor contacts.

BUT - I always make it very clear in writing exactly what I did and WHY.

^^^^This!

 

[brewchief]

Something caused the A/C to not work, it very well could be a failed compressor, I don't think I've ever seen a GE unit newer then maybe the mid eighties so it could have simply failed from age. If troubleshooting found a shorted/grounded/open compressor I wouldn't bother reconnecting the wires either. With a unit that old we wouldn't even consider replacing the compressor, it would be time for a complete system replacement.

How much was the "outrageous quote" and what did it include?

 

[EOC_Jason]

Yeah, if you replace the compressor you are probably going to end up with a leak in the evaporator... happens every time...

 

[AA7483]

If it were me, and I got to the service call and found a tripped breaker I would disconnect 1 thing at a time until the breaker didn't trip anymore to find the culprit. If I disconnect the compressor and the breaker still trips I would move on to the fan motor. If I tried the compressor first, perhaps I would tape the wires to keep them from hitting anything while performing the test. If the breaker didn't trip after disconnecting the compressor then there would be no reason to go any further. Ohm the compressor to confirm its shorted to ground and then condemn it.

 

[eddieK]

If it were me, and I got to the service call and found a tripped breaker I would disconnect 1 thing at a time until the breaker didn't trip anymore to find the culprit. If I disconnect the compressor and the breaker still trips I would move on to the fan motor. If I tried the compressor first, perhaps I would tape the wires to keep them from hitting anything while performing the test. If the breaker didn't trip after disconnecting the compressor then there would be no reason to go any further. Ohm the compressor to confirm its shorted to ground and then condemn it.

I would start ohming things first before I just kept sending a direct short to the panel. I also would be inspecting the panel where the breaker ties in and be sure there's no damage to the bars.

 

[ddawg16]

I have a condo downtown that I rent out. I just got a new tenant and she is a young woman, seems nice enough.

She says the AC is broken and won't even turn on. I get a call from my property manager and they sent out their preferred contractor guy to fix the unit.

The unit is an old GE unit. It doesn't leak refrigerant, and its pretty solid all around despite being really old and looking old.

Anyway, there is a breaker inside, and there is one right next to the compressor on the outside wall. I had flipped them both off because the power was cut off as my last tenant disappeared in the night after 2.5 years.

I assume that one of the breakers were off, I was using the AC a couple weeks ago when I was cleaning the carpet. It was blowing cold enough to dehumidify the carpet.

Anyway, I stop by to look at the unit and they took off the top of the outside unit and disconnected the power wires to the compressor and and taped them off then stuffed them under the compressor.

Is there any reason to disconnect the compressor power supply at the compressor and not at the contactor 8 inches away?

I have my AC guy Sean going by in the morning to look at it, he doesn't know why anyone would open the main housing other than to replace the fan on top of the unit. The fan works just fine.

Anyway, they told my property manager that it was a total loss and I needed a whole new system and gave an outrageous quote. Which is what EVERY AC company says other than Sean who doesn't ******** me.

I've used Sean for 10+ years, he is worth a little extra for the service call.

But this guy went further than anyone and disconnected wires and hid them so it definitely wouldn't work even if both breakers were on.

That really doesn't feel right to me.

What do you think?

Normally, I would 'somewhat' agree with the comments above about disconnecting for safety....but....because of the above, I think it's a scam. If disconnected for safety, why hide them?

Me? I'd disconnect at the breaker and make it obvious. That way the disconnected wires can't get energized.

 

[AA7483]

I would start ohming things first before I just kept sending a direct short to the panel. I also would be inspecting the panel where the breaker ties in and be sure there's no damage to the bars.

Good point. Either way it's not uncommon to see the wires disconnected for testing purposes. I probably would have disconnected them from the contactor before I left but doesn't mean a scam.

 

[mpire]

Well, Sean came out and looked at the system. He did a continuity test between the three lugs on the compressor and said it checked out ok. Definitely need a cap, but the spade/lug was broken off the compressor so he needs some crazy kit to fix the lug and has to order it or something. I'm looking at over a grand to fix it, but the inside unit is original 1974 and the outside unit was replaced at some point but it wasn't new when I bought the place 15 years ago.

So I just asked for a quote to replace the R22 system with a R410a system.

The other company said $6500, Sean's company said $4200 for a whole new 410a system.

Both are quoting me the exact same equipment, so this must be the cheapest stuff out there:

Goodman GSZ140301K ARUF31B14A SEER 14 Heat Pump Air Conditioner Split System

I can buy this for $1700 from various online retailers with free shipping, so one is charging me roughly $4800 to install it, and the other is saying $2500.

Both want a grand or more to install a new copper line-set, so they want to continue to use the existing copper that was new in 1974.

I gotta make up my mind pretty fast, but this is terrible timing.

 

[mpire]

I don't know if the breaker was tripped, I turned off the breakers on purpose so the AC wouldn't kick on when the power was turned back on by the power company.

This is a straight AC system, not a heat pump.

I didn't know anything until I got a call telling me the whole system was shot by the manager.

I could just install the goodman **** myself and be done with it, I am seriously thinking about this right now.

 

[eddieK]

Normally, I would 'somewhat' agree with the comments above about disconnecting for safety....but....because of the above, I think it's a scam. If disconnected for safety, why hide them?

Me? I'd disconnect at the breaker and make it obvious. That way the disconnected wires can't get energized.

It's not a scam...I've been doing this for close to 40 years. You already have to disconnect these at the compressor to OHM the compressor, once you see it is a direct short, the industry practice is DO not reconnect them. You also write this down on your invoice, that way if someone else does, you are not the one liable.

It isn't that they are shoved under the compressor, they just happen to fall there.

 

[eddieK]

Well, Sean came out and looked at the system. He did a continuity test between the three lugs on the compressor and said it checked out ok. Definitely need a cap, but the spade/lug was broken off the compressor so he needs some crazy kit to fix the lug and has to order it or something. I'm looking at over a grand to fix it, but the inside unit is original 1974 and the outside unit was replaced at some point but it wasn't new when I bought the place 15 years ago.

So I just asked for a quote to replace the R22 system with a R410a system.

The other company said $6500, Sean's company said $4200 for a whole new 410a system.

Both are quoting me the exact same equipment, so this must be the cheapest stuff out there:

Goodman GSZ140301K ARUF31B14A SEER 14 Heat Pump Air Conditioner Split System

I can buy this for $1700 from various online retailers with free shipping, so one is charging me roughly $4800 to install it, and the other is saying $2500.

Both want a grand or more to install a new copper line-set, so they want to continue to use the existing copper that was new in 1974.

I gotta make up my mind pretty fast, but this is terrible timing.

The new system R410a is going to be running at much higher pressures, if anyone at any time did not braze a connection in the copper line set, if they used 95/5 instead (fairly common) you will have problems and the company installing will have warranty issues they must cover and it would not have been something they had done wrong...and the new system may need (usually) larger suction or liquid line depending on what was installed in 74 (might be a 1/4 liquid line installed and 3/8 is required now) ...and the old system used mineral oil, the new system uses POE (synthetic) oil (ALL). The two oils may mix if flush doesn't get it all and that spells problems in about 3 - 5 years.

A new copper line set in a condo is probably a nightmare run (very long and in chases within other tenants walls), hence the high cost, plus copper is about 5 times more expensive today than 74, labor is much higher today than 74

The company putting this in is not "making" $2,500.00. There is liability insurance, Workers comp insurance, gas, labor, nitrogen, crane work (simple one up one down is $450.00), refrigerant, truck payments, filter driers, thermostat, warranty period (free labor potential in future). There's the demolition portion (inside and on the roof)without damaging the property in the process, At some condos the parking is not close and that adds a lot of extra labor, in some condos the outdoor unit access is not just a ladder, it can be a series of them and a crawl to boot, the outdoor unit is probably on a roof, many of the items (tools and tanks) you need at the outdoor unit have to be pulled up (ever lug an Oxy Acetylene set up an extension ladder?) there by rope and then lowered back down. An after treatment to help reduce the risk of the oil mixing and breaking down the compressor winding's comes in a 6 ounce container, the cost is $85.00 for that product (just another hidden cost in this trade). When was the last time you checked the cost of 15% Silafos for brazing? In 74 it was about 15.00...today more like 100.00.

There are many more hidden costs to finalize the cost to perform this task. The equipment portion is the only cost I can be sure of when I start a project, if the job takes an extra day, because someone did not leave an access key, if an employee got called home for an emergency etc etc etc

The price is still the quote that must be held to. The worst feeling in the world is when you realize after all expenses for a project come in you made little or lost some and you have a warranty period to cover as well. It never seems to cross the minds of many customers that a contractor can actually lose money taking on some projects. This doesn't even bring into play the inherent risks you have to take to your safety in some instances, because of poor access to roofs or what have you. Think about it...you worked your *** off on a very difficult task and probably bled at some point and in the end you even lost money. I only let that happen a few times and never apologized for the expense of a job again.

I wouldn't touch this project for less than $6,000.00 sight unseen, after seeing it I might have to increase that figure depending on access, demo etc etc etc

Most of the problems that will occur with change outs like this will not show up for 3 to ten years...early compressor failure because of high pressures (not changing out copper) or breakdown of compressor from POE and mineral oil mixing - poor evacuation job, not nitrogen testing to high pressure and resulting with a slow refrigerant leak, problem every season, not installing filter driers...etc etc...problems inside can be space related because the 14 SEER equipment has to be physically larger to attain higher efficiency (coil area)...and then there can be drain issues. etc etc

My intention taking on these type projects is long term operation without major problems and/or continuing nuisance problems, to ensure that the labor and the material costs are much higher.

 

[mpire]

I see what you are saying, and while it make sense, this is a super simple job to install. The attic is open, so the copper run would be up a couple feet, over 20 feet, and then down 15 feet to the pad.

Using the old copper makes me really uncomfortable. This is probably the most vital part of the install. I can't seem to keep the copper water pipes from leaking, why the hell wouldn't a 45 year old copper line-set from 1974 NOT leak?

Pricing the copper alone looks like $200 for 50 foot, so they want another $800 to run it, but how can you not replace the copper?

They want to reuse everything existing, thermostat, thermostat wiring, control wiring, condensate drain/drain pump, and existing ducting.

There is currently a 2 ton unit, and they are saying that a 2.5 ton unit won't work because the breaker is only 40 amp or so. This is only a 925 square foot apartment, but it gets hot in the summer, the new system at 2 tons should be adequate.

Of the 2 companies I asked, nether offered to do a manual J or load calculation.

I'm checking with a friend of mine who just got his AC cert, there may be a plan C.

 

[Bretny]

It would be plain and simple stupid to not replace the line set that could be from 1970s.
Line sets should be changed every time you chane the unit.

 

[EOC_Jason]

Using the old copper makes me really uncomfortable. This is probably the most vital part of the install. I can't seem to keep the copper water pipes from leaking, why the hell wouldn't a 45 year old copper line-set from 1974 NOT leak?

Because water and all the minerals are corrosive... Freon isn't...

I would take a look at the evap coil and see what kind of condition its in. 1974 is pretty darn old, but if it's in good shape still, might be worth just repairing the unit outside and see how much longer it will run. They really don't make AC units like they used to... Coils are so thin now for higher efficiency, problem is that also means they will corrode and leak faster. Pressures run higher, meaning the compressor has to work harder and will eventually fail sooner.

I wonder if those guys accidently broke the lug when checking the unit out, or did it on purpose...

Honestly, seeing a bad cap is pretty obvious and one of the first things to check along with the contactor...

 

[Brian_WK]

Because water and all the minerals are corrosive... Freon isn't... Freon can be corrosive if it gets water in the system causing acid sludge.

I would take a look at the evap coil and see what kind of condition its in. 1974 is pretty darn old, but if it's in good shape still, might be worth just repairing the unit outside and see how much longer it will run. They really don't make AC units like they used to... Coils are so thin now for higher efficiency, problem is that also means they will corrode and leak faster. Pressures run higher, meaning the compressor has to work harder and will eventually fail sooner. Pressures are higher but the compression ratio is lower leading to a more efficient system. New Scroll compressors are miles better than old recips.

I wonder if those guys accidently broke the lug when checking the unit out, or did it on purpose... I have seen many compressor leads break/burn off due to bad connections I have also broken a few off on accident trying to remove these heat cycled leads.

Honestly, seeing a bad cap is pretty obvious and one of the first things to check along with the contactor...

All in all that system has used up its useful life. Change it out. Also change the line set its just good practice/insurance when changing refrigerant oil types.

Brian

 

[eddieK]

I see what you are saying, and while it make sense, this is a super simple job to install. The attic is open, so the copper run would be up a couple feet, over 20 feet, and then down 15 feet to the pad.

Using the old copper makes me really uncomfortable. This is probably the most vital part of the install. I can't seem to keep the copper water pipes from leaking, why the hell wouldn't a 45 year old copper line-set from 1974 NOT leak?

Pricing the copper alone looks like $200 for 50 foot, so they want another $800 to run it, but how can you not replace the copper?

They want to reuse everything existing, thermostat, thermostat wiring, control wiring, condensate drain/drain pump, and existing ducting.

There is currently a 2 ton unit, and they are saying that a 2.5 ton unit won't work because the breaker is only 40 amp or so. This is only a 925 square foot apartment, but it gets hot in the summer, the new system at 2 tons should be adequate.

Of the 2 companies I asked, nether offered to do a manual J or load calculation.

I'm checking with a friend of mine who just got his AC cert, there may be a plan C.

A horizontal FAU install is much more expensive than a closet install, if the air handler is in the attic, you have TWO plenums to replace and instead of just connecting a slide plenum to the supply end and setting the appliance on a platform, you have to demo the old unit, plenums and duct connections, re configure the platform area, attach two plenums, cut the appropriate holes in them, insulate, duct seal joints, add and/or alter existing ducts...while working IN an attic and balancing on joists. Labor Labor Labor. It sounds simple until you actually do the job.

A simple 1,000 sf condo - load calc is extreme overkill.

It isn't so much about leaking, especially if they are not leaking now - refrigerant line sets have few connections and they are usually brazed Type K soft copper (fairly thick wall), not sweated.

It's more about proper sizing for higher efficiency/higher pressure R410 systems...and the oil mixing.

Cost for new lineset includes : buying it, delivering it, demo the old one, not damage anything in the process and weather seal penetration and warranty it.

Condensate pump and thermostat should be upgraded. Control wiring if it has enough wires should be fine. Existing ducting depends (needs inspection). 1974 disconnect on the roof, I would replace it.

Condensing unit minimum amp requirement up to 3 tons is 30 amp. Indoor depends on heat strips. A 220v air handler without heat strips draws about 5 - 7 amps... maybe. I recommend heat strips at least for defrost. 40 amp should cover 7.5 KW.

Load calc is probably not needed...Your ducting was originally sized (400 CFM for every 1,200 btu's - 2 ton is 2,400 btu's - for a 2 ton system) - most likely, if you upgrade beyond 2.5 then you will have issues if the ducting is in fact, too small.

NOTE - In response to those that recommend repairs to coil etc...New compressor comes with synthetic oil, requiring a thorough flush. That 1974 indoor coil will not work with an R22 system and even if you could alter a new coil by changing the metering device(probably a check flo rater piston), that coil cannot achieve anywhere near the same efficiency. When it was made there was no SEER value determined, probably about 6 SEER and all new units are 14 SEER - even a used unit is going to be 10 - 12 etc...

 

[eddieK]

All in all that system has used up its useful life. Change it out. Also change the line set its just good practice/insurance when changing refrigerant oil types.

Brian

^^^^^ this ^^^^^

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Leaving the wires off the compressor terminals taped up tells me the tech may have found the compressor was a burnout. If I had a burnout, I wouldn't put them back on, either and I would probably wire nut or tape them to eliminate any safety issues.

Tommy

 

[Falcon67]

I could just install the goodman **** myself and be done with it, I am seriously thinking about this right now.

If Sean has been your guy, best let him make some money once in a while. Letting him do the whole install seems to me would guarantee not only the work but also the equipment and save you money in the long run. AC Techs gotta eat too.

 

[mrpizza]

6k for a two ton install doesnt seem out of line.

 

[Richard Cranium]

that is what my thoughts are, Sean helped you out, now it is your turn to help him out. Let him do your install.

 

[tapered-pin]

on occasion, property managers and their "preferred subcontractors" work together to hustle money out of property owners..

preferred guy gets paid to repair the defective component, property manager gets to send you a bill for the repair cost "plus their markup"..


I'm just sayin'