redwrench60
Well-known member
Hurl insults all you wish. I won’t take the bait. Do you have anything constructive to contribute? Do you own any of the tools being discussed here? Do you use tools at all?
Knipex needlenose- twisty, mushy, bendy
- Thread starter Itsjustdirt
- Start date
Hurl insults all you wish. I won’t take the bait. Do you have anything constructive to contribute? Do you own any of the tools being discussed here? Do you use tools at all?
If the Knipex catalog descriptions are to be taken as gospel with regard to tip strength, how should one interpret this wording on the page for the 38 series mechanics pliers? That seems to be referring to the same feature (or deficiency) OP saw in the 26 series...
Edit: Don't know how to make that screenshot show up full size, but the highlighted part says, "tips bend and snap back into place".
Edit: Don't know how to make that screenshot show up full size, but the highlighted part says, "tips bend and snap back into place".
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redwrench60
Well-known member
If the Knipex catalog descriptions are to be taken as gospel with regard to tip strength, how should one interpret this wording on the page for the 38 series mechanics pliers? That seems to be referring to the same feature (or deficiency) OP saw in the 26 series...
Here’s a pic of my own Klein Journeyman’s, Channellock 318’s and Knipex 26 series. All are intended for electrical use having a side cutter and it’s pretty obvious to me which one is the lightest duty of the bunch but I’m told my comprehension skills are lacking
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I have no idea what the reviewers experience is, I just thought the part about elasticity and 'springy' steel might interest some here. Perhaps that's a feature to some users and garbage to others.
If you aren't happy with the CLs or Knipex, bite the bullet and get the Snap Ons. I cant Imagine you'll be disappointed. Are you using these tools for electrical? Automotive?
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Here’s a pic of my own Klein Journeyman’s, Channellock 318’s and Knipex 26 series. All are intended for electrical use having a side cutter and it’s pretty obvious to me which one is the lightest duty of the bunch but I’m told my comprehension skills are lacking
Yeah, I don't think anyone is arguing that the 26 series are not for light duty use. What's confusing is that a couple of users suggested the 38 series are for heavier duty use, but that does not seem to be the case. They're the same dimensions and are also made with flexible tips designed to spring back. So what's special about the 38 series that makes them more appropriate for heavier duty use?
Here’s a pic of my own Klein Journeyman’s, Channellock 318’s and Knipex 26 series. All are intended for electrical use having a side cutter and it’s pretty obvious to me which one is the lightest duty of the bunch but I’m told my comprehension skills are lacking
Or perhaps the thicker tools are using inferior steel necessitating more bulk for the same strength? It's a possibility...
Have you contacted Knipex yet with the same question?
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My mistake for asking about perceived differences in heat treatment rather than a property that's more practical to discern. I should have asked whether OP could tell a difference in stiffness between the 26 and the 38. i.e. did the 38s have the same issue he observed in the 26s.
I agree that we don't know anything about the heat treatment of the two pliers without specs from the manufacturer. Would you agree that a one line description in a catalog page hardly qualifies as a spec? Because those catalog descriptions seem to be the entire basis for the argument (not yours, I know) that the 38 series are more appropriate for heavier duty use.
All I'm saying is that we don't know if the 26s and 38s are the same or not, the catalog descriptions don't help, and the best info we can get—short of asking the manufacturer and hoping they'll divulge the info—is anecdotes from people who own both models.
I did just now!
Now, lets see if they reply...Someone posted a pic of these earlier, the more I look into them the more I like them...
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/NnkhWr9CZsw" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>
And the description of the metal from Knipex is "Highgrade special tool steel, forged, multi stage oil-hardened"
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/NnkhWr9CZsw" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>
And the description of the metal from Knipex is "Highgrade special tool steel, forged, multi stage oil-hardened"
redwrench60
Well-known member
The steel or heat treatment may very well be different but at least in my experience with both models (several years of use) there is no practical difference. Both will bend and flex if you call on them to fight above their weight class. I’d say the lack of the side cutter does add some rigidity to the 38 series but not enough to win the fight.
That’s a real possibility with the Channellocks, they’re not near as tough as the Kleins. The wear and battle damage show up sooner on the Channellocks but they cost less than the Kleins so maybe a wash there. I don’t mean to sound like I don’t like the Knipex models. They are excellent when a needle nose with fine dexterity with strength is needed. They all have their place.
PS I just can’t stop staring at that avatar of yours.
redwrench60
Well-known member
You know better than to corner the Germans with questions about their engineering!
The amount of force vs amount of elastic yielding, temporary deflection, is based on geometry - for pliers its the height and thickness of the jaws - for any steel. Look up modulus of elasticity and then look for values on matweb.com for both 1010 and 4140. They're the same, or essentilly the same. So elastic deflection is determined by geometry. Period. Force vs plastic deformation is determined by material choice , heat treat, and geometry. So it sounds like the knipex jaws are too small for some uses.
redwrench60
Well-known member
Nope, never touched a tool before in my life. I just read the catalogs.
Mmmmmm…..Rashida Jones...…
Anyway this ol' life is tough enough, especially for those of us with ****** reading comprehension skills (the go to insult in the interwebs btw)
Say, I know what would fix us up...….we should hug it out. Come on in here big boy you might even get a smootch outta the deal too!
WhiskeyRanger
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2015
- Messages
- 398
I have no idea what the reviewers experience is, I just thought the part about elasticity and 'springy' steel might interest some here. Perhaps that's a feature to some users and garbage to others.
If you aren't happy with the CLs or Knipex, bite the bullet and get the Snap Ons. I cant Imagine you'll be disappointed. Are you using these tools for electrical? Automotive?
My CL's don't have cutters, and the Knipex are too light duty for anything more strenuous than pushing a wire into a terminal strip where my fingers are too fat. The springiness has never been an advantage to me, so definitely not a feature to me. I'm an industrial electrician, so it may not be as much of an issue in other trades or settings. I have used the Kleins and they are vastly superior to the knipex for the kind of work we do so it kind of made me curious about the reviewer. I got a lot of guys sold on the knipex mini bolt cutters and linesmans, but no one uses the knipex needlenose.
In all honesty, I'll probably get the Kleins because they are sold at HD and I can just go pick them up. No SO trucks come visit us, and the last time I ordered SO tools online, I didn't get an invoice making it a pain to reimbursed.
Been looking at used Snap on pliers on ebay after reading this thread and agreeing that Knipex long nose (sold mine) and my Wiha are a bit light duty. Most look to be very rusty. The clean ones look pitted so were rusty before the sale. Bit of googling confirms that it may be a common issue with snap on pliers. Is it really a common problem?
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Seven pages before someone pointed this out! Of course the 38 series will flex as much as the 26 series...the jaws are the same size.
If the Knipex jaws have a very high yield strength, that would allow them to grip with a lot of force without permanently bending despite their thin profile and lots of flex under load. Maybe not as much force as the significantly geometrically stiffer alternatives, but more than you might think for such thin jaws. I guess that's the idea behind the "elastic, distortion-tolerant" jaws.
The jaws don't even fully close at the ends. So if they're also designed to be "elastic", then you'll loose any significant grip for smaller objects. (along with the straight serration pattern that offers no grip in the perpendicular direction). Is there any benefit in still offering the straight serration pattern in their mainstream 26-200 series?
I'd love to hear Knipex's justification for this design.
And for those that say the SO's are too hunky for precision work, they pass the pick up a "**** hair" test where the Knipex fail.
rlitman
Well-known member
Ummmm, remind me not to buy pliers from you.
Stating, not implying: the snapper is way overpriced and highly overrated in this thread.
Knipex, Klein, Gedore, and NWS all cost about the same in the US. Orbis EvoTel and NWS Ergomulti are more expensive, but novel. Even the Stahlwille equivalent to SO (dipped handle 6529 in 200mm) is $40 in the US. People who understand we live on a globe and not just in a country can buy the Stahlwille (branded VBW, who are the actual pliers maker in the Stahlwille Group) for just EUR 14,75 in (524605) on amazon.de right now. The upgraded handle VBW (592210) is EUR 19,91. I assume without looking Knipex, Gedore, and NWS also cost about that much on Amazon.
To summarize: Snapper is more expensive, but not as good as the cheaper but similarly shaped Kleins in my opinion, bulkier than the Germans, not as innovative as NWS Ergomulti or Orbis EvoTel, and not as beautifully finished as the Austrian-made Gedores.
Interesting, if very defensive, questions.
Sometime around the financial crisis.
I did not take them out of the box. They were used by the person I was helping, who owned them, as were the Kleins. I have mo idea when they were purchased. I do not remember them being rusted or pitted, as others have mentioned seems to be a thing with these overpriced and overrated pliers. I didn’t have any preconceived notions about any tool company at the time. AI didn’t know SO from Klein, or for that matter Harbor Freight. I just used them.
My reaction at the time was to buy my own Kleins as they were clearly to me the superior pliers, and I thought it would be useful to own my own pair of pliers (!)
I still think if someone just wants one pair of general pliers, the Klein needlenose are probably the best choice. They are almost as good as German-pattern needlenose for delicate work, and almost as good as combis for tougher work. I prefer to have separate needlenose and combi today. Several of each in different sizes and configurations, actually [emoji4]
Great information and pics. Thank you for sharing!
You have a bum pair of Knipex. Mine and other pairs I've seen close nicely at the tips and have a bit of a gap as you move towards the pivot, allowing for a good grip on small objects. Sorry you got a lemon.
Strange. Every pair of Knipex I have seen closes on the cutting part and has a small gap at the tips. Thought that was the way they were designed.
It's hard to tell exactly what's going on with his pair but in one of the photos it looked like the tips are flare out a little. That definitely wouldn't be normal.
Mine have no cutters, so maybe there's a difference there.
El oh el....
Meh, the Snap On are only $20 bucks more and considering we're talking about a tool that could potentially last an entire lifetime, that is a VERY small price to pay to have one of the best needle nose pliers in my tool box. As I already stated several times, they are ALL over priced (every brand) in my opinion but I am not broke enough to complain about an extra $20 spread over a lifetime of a tool. I hate to break it to you but you don't get much for $20 bucks noadays. It's not like we're talking about a large purchase... I cant afford the best car ever made, but for an extra $20 I can afford the best needle nose pliers ever made. (in my opinion)
Lets put the shoe on the other foot.... Lets say your favorite brand was $20 bucks more than the others, would you pony up the extra $20 to own your favorite pliers for the rest of your life? I bet you would. But because you have a problem with this particular company, you cant allow yourself to admit one of their products is good..... and that's okay, you're entitled to your opinion....... so am I.
Like I said, I dont buy from amazon.de, I can buy all that **** locally... and even if I did buy online it would be from amazon.com. I can tell you are offended by those of us who live in the USA but I do understand "it's a globe, not just a country" I own just about every brand you mentioned above (everything but NWS) and I actually like all my German tools, I have nothing bad to say about them. But that doesn't mean they have to be my favorite across the board. For needle nose pliers, I can say without a doubt that MY Snap On Talon grip are THE BEST needled nose pliers I have ever used, or own. I am here to give my opinion, this is a discussion forum, if you don't like my opinion that is perfectly fine. But don't tell me I am wrong.... especially if you've never used the tool in question. lol.
That's you opinion... from a guy who has never used the tool he is comparing to.
Nope, just honest questions to see how you formed an opinion that was greatly different from mine.
Klein tools are excellent. I own many Klien screwdrivers, nut drivers, lineman pliers, diagonal cutters, and even needle nose pliers. They are all excellent. My Snap On talon grips are better though...
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Meh, the Snap On are only $20 bucks more and considering we're talking about a tool that could potentially last an entire lifetime, that is a VERY small price to pay to have one of the best needle nose pliers in my tool box. As I already stated several times, they are ALL over priced (every brand) in my opinion but I am not broke enough to complain about an extra $20 spread over a lifetime of a tool. I hate to break it to you but you don't get much for $20 bucks noadays. It's not like we're talking about a large purchase... I cant afford the best car ever made, but for an extra $20 I can afford the best needle nose pliers ever made. (in my opinion)
Lets put the shoe on the other foot.... Lets say your favorite brand was $20 bucks more than the others, would you pony up the extra $20 to own your favorite pliers for the rest of your life? I bet you would. But because you have a problem with this particular company, you cant allow yourself to admit one of their products is good..... and that's okay, you're entitled to your opinion....... so am I.
Like I said, I dont buy from amazon.de, I can buy all that **** locally... and even if I did buy online it would be from amazon.com. I can tell you are offended by those of us who live in the USA but I do understand "it's a globe, not just a country" I own just about every brand you mentioned above (everything but NWS) and I actually like all my German tools, I have nothing bad to say about them. But that doesn't mean they have to be my favorite across the board. For needle nose pliers, I can say without a doubt that MY Snap On Talon grip are THE BEST needled nose pliers I have ever used, or own. I am here to give my opinion, this is a discussion forum, if you don't like my opinion that is perfectly fine. But don't tell me I am wrong.... especially if you've never used the tool in question. lol.
That's you opinion... from a guy who has never used the tool he is comparing to.
Nope, just honest questions to see how you formed an opinion that was greatly different from mine.
Klein tools are excellent. I own many Klien screwdrivers, nut drivers, lineman pliers, diagonal cutters, and even needle nose pliers. They are all excellent. My Snap On talon grips are better though...
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PugetDude
ALLIANCE MEMBER
All this talk about needlenose pliers makes me want to go out and wire something...think I'll go wire up the outlets I've been meaning to add to my garage for a while. Tired of dragging extension cords from one side to the other. I'll probably use my Craftsman electrical and needlenose pliers for this, since I gave my cheesy Knipex needlenose pliers away this weekend to my unsuspecting brother..... Wonder if I'll even be able to complete the job with such inferior tools?
This is false.
I own very few Snap-On tools (4 or maybe 5) and these pliers are one of them. They are worth every penny and every ounce of praise they have been given. For what they are designed to do, they are the best. They are too big and fat to get into some places, however getting to those places are not what they are designed to do.
The Knipex are also a very nice plier. Perhaps I am not abusing mine hard enough but they do everything I ask of them and have more to give if ever I needed it. They are also not perfect however.
I have managed to get several used Snap On pliers from Ebay for about 1/2 to 2/3 new price. All in nearly new to new condition ...... no rust , or pitting, etc. Easier to do on the most common ones such as the 97acf. Set up a search with email alerts and just keep watching and waiting.
Seth
plinker
Well-known member
The Snap-on pliers having a natural finish will rust the same as any other unfinished pliers including Klien, Channellock and Knipex. If you have moisture problems it can be an issue, some corrosion preventive oil can help. Or just use them a lot.
Most likely the used ones encountered on ebay that are pitted/ete.. have been cleaned up to some degree.
Most likely the used ones encountered on ebay that are pitted/ete.. have been cleaned up to some degree.
redwrench60
Well-known member
Yeah, I never really understood why some complain it’s the tools fault for rusting. It’s no different than any other piece of bare steel. It will rust under the right conditions if the owner does nothing to prevent it.
No complaints here just an observation. My observation is that second hand Snap on pliers are more often rusty than other brands. Maybe when other brands get rusty they are thrown away as they have less value.
Different brands of pliers will definitely be more or less susceptible to rust as the metal will have different properties. Not something I know much about. Think maybe to do different levels of iron and carbon?
Different brands of pliers will definitely be more or less susceptible to rust as the metal will have different properties. Not something I know much about. Think maybe to do different levels of iron and carbon?
Here's the response I received from Knipex when I inquired about the differences between the 26 and 38 series pliers:
"They are essential the same except for the two items he pointed out which are the cutting blade and serrated jaws. Other than that, they are identical."
"They are essential the same except for the two items he pointed out which are the cutting blade and serrated jaws. Other than that, they are identical."
Alpine4x4
Well-known member
I grabbed the three set of pliers from Snap-On with the cutters, slip joints, and talon grips for $100 on Promo, thats $33 per plier. Thats not very expensive at all for a quality, made in USA plier with a lifetime warranty.
redwrench60
Well-known member
PugetDude
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Lol You mean all that catalog thumping BMack did was for nothing!?
It wasn't entirely for nothing. It facilitated low-grade drama on a thread about low-grade pliers.
Knipex in general flex quit a bit. I don’t like how much they flex. Especially the cobras. The pliers wrench is pretty solid. I have been disappointed in knipex other than the pliers wrench. I like channel locks better because they are stiffer. Knipex have an advantage of having less bulk or you could look at it like less metal, which is a compromise, isn’t everything.
xin
Well-known member
I agree - I thought I had lost my old pair (then got the new version) guessing the talon one.
The difference is the machined teeth, handles (not bulky like Conan would be using them). Plus they do have some 'flex' but it is not a weakness of metal. It allows you to 'feel' what the tool is doing.