The VISES of Garage Journal

[gman007]

Some days back I requested feed back on a fair price for the Snap-On 1750 which belonged to the sister of one my good friends. She is a widow and the vise belonged to her late husband (who unfortunately passed away at a fairly young age). The friend and his sister were frankly happy with $50.

For most part the the feed back here was that a price between $50-$150 is more than fair. But in good conscience I was not even sure even if $150 is a fair price. So I gave my friend's sister the following options

1- I will cleanup and polish all non painted parts of the vise, grease and clean up and prep the vise but leave the original paint/patina on. She can then list it locally for $250 and see if she can get more than $150. If not I would buy it for $150.

2- If she wants I would also repaint the vise and then she can list for $350 and again if she can not sell it for more than $150, I would buy if for $150.

She chose option one. I wrote the AD and took the photos for her and late last night she listed the vise for $250 on CL in her local area (very small town 30 min drive from where I live). Even I was not expecting an offer right away specially considering the small town she lives in. But apparently first thing this morning someone offered the asking price and she sold it but has not met the buyer to conclude the deal yet!

Now while my friend and his sister are very happy something is nagging me! She can for sure use the money and may be I should have told her to list it higher!

Personally I am also morally against going back on a deal but then again it is not my vise! I do not believe she is the type to nag on a deal either, so it is all a bit confusing .

I guess even when a well-intentioned plan appears like a good one there is always a hole in it somewhere.

 

[zkling]

I think that was fair for both, for a CL deal. Most of the ones sited higher that sold on ebay have been fully repainted. You already got more than your initial goal of $150. I understand she "needs the money", but at a certain point it just sounds greedy on your end. You have to remove emotion from the equation.

Also the tradesman series are not TRUE bullet vises. Advertising them as such just creates confusion and IMHO misrepresents them. And yes I know modern wilton touts them as part of the bullet series.

 

[Mr. Wonderful]

Gman, I think you are in the clear on this. Yes, you MIGHT have gotten more money down the road. I think that was a good deal all around for everyone. I feel like a lot of people out there would have offered the widow $50 and kept the vise for their own or put it up for more and kept the money.

My only point is, I feel like you have acted in good faith on the widows behaf. You did a good thing. I have seen plenty of people try to swindle survivors out of everything.

 

[Outlawmws]

G-Man. I also think it was very fair to both sides. bottom line is the buyer will presumably be happy, and the seller is happy. You might have listed it a day later and had it sit for days before the price dwindled down to the $150 level. you don't always get THE buyer right off the bat, and sometimes it can take months, if ever...

 

[JZiggy]

A generous forum member JZiggy loaned me a hydraulic ram and gauge to check the force that a vise generates.
I did not measure the torque on the handles when I did these checks, just used what I felt to be prudent, by feel.
Anyhow here is the numbers on a few vises, some being somewhat surprising.

Reed 105 5600#
Parker 674-1/2 3364#
Parker 976 8972#
Athol 624 7401#
Parker 974 4307#
Reed 403-1/2 4307#
American Scale 79 5383#
Parker 239X 6953#
Reed 106 7401#
Parker 973 3140#
Versavise 2243#
Millscott No 13 13458#

This was a very interesting study

Royce

If any other GJ members would be interested in running these measurements on their own vise collections I'd be happy to send this tool out to them as well.

This tool ships easily in a USPS small flat rate box ($7 to ship) so if anyone speaks up now perhaps Royce, if willing, can ship it directly otherwise I can do so. It would be fun for this to make the circuit of the GJ vise collections

 

[gman007]

zkling, Mr. Wonderful, and Outlaw
Gents
Thanks for the sage comments and advice.

Outlaw
The funny thing is that I had told her brother to list it in Kalamazoo and Grand Rapids on CL and on FB marketplace. But she just listed on CL locally and bingo and that is what shocked me and gave me second thoughts that I had given bad price advice to her. But I believe you are correct, it is always a crapshoot and can go either way.

 

[va.grouseman]

VA But Millscott No 13 with 13458# which is also armed with DR. Scott's jaws beats your TREX with 8000# hands down (and Millscott No 13 does need a couple of cows a day to feed, well may be it will need some Mobil 1 synthetic grease every once a while)

Gman, 4 tons of pressure is enough for me although I am very jealous of anyone that has a vise with a 6 1/4 ton bite.---As far as maintenance for my vise is concerned, I'll train him to fetch his own cows.---I've trained several grouse dogs to fetch like field trial champs, shouldn't be to hard.

 

[royce]

If any other GJ members would be interested in running these measurements on their own vise collections I'd be happy to send this tool out to them as well.

This tool ships easily in a USPS small flat rate box ($7 to ship) so if anyone speaks up now perhaps Royce, if willing, can ship it directly otherwise I can do so. It would be fun for this to make the circuit of the GJ vise collections

No problem, let me know the address and I'll make it happen.
I mashed a few more today, here is the results.
The results are all over the place, which I feel is a product of the condition of the vises.
I can really feel when one is going to give a high reading by the smoothness in the take up.

Wilton 600 6056#
Prentiss 50 4037#
Reed 214 4710#
Parker 973-1/2 5607#
Prentiss 20 5383#
Reed 103 4710#
Rock island 591 3140#
Reed 402-1/2 3140#
Prentiss 19-1/2 4934#
Hollands 93 5158#
Prentiss 26 4710#

 

[zkling]

Royce, do you have any mill vises to check? Would like to see how a 6" Kurt angle lock fares. Something where holding power is critical, typically with smooth jaws none the less.

 

[Outlawmws]

I'm interested in adding to the list with a few. PM sent

Question on the Vise Data Base: do any of these have the lead screw TPI's listed? then adding test results as we get them might be interesting...

 

[va.grouseman]

Royce, I think you have created a monster.---But a good one.

Even though there are a lot of variables to consider, a lot of fellows are going to want to know what their vise is ballparking.

 

[MayerMR]

I've amassed a ridiculous number of vises since finding this site and catching the infection from you gentlemen...

Add me to to the queue for getting that little tool and I'll add 10-12 models to the list.

Wilton 745
Wilton 450
Wilton 3.5'' (forgetting the model number)
Columbian D45
Reed 1C
Prentiss Bulldog
Desmond-Simplex #400
Walker-Turner clamp-on
and more...ugh...

 

[JZiggy]

I'm interested in adding to the list with a few. PM sent

Question on the Vise Data Base: do any of these have the lead screw TPI's listed? then adding test results as we get then might be interesting...

Outlaw's the first to speak up!

Royce, can you send it on over to Mr. Outlaw when you're finished?

 

[trijeff]

would love to check the Prentiss 98 clamping power, but really the smash-o-meter should prob go to Demoman so ww can get numbers on bunch of monsters versus just one

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

 

[Lucky13driver]

I just scored a Wilton 1750 made in 1974 for $40.00 needs restored but totally psyched


Wilton 1750
Record 3" made in England
Columbia 6"

 

[BeardedOne]

I just scored a Wilton 1750 made in 1974 for $40.00 needs restored but totally psyched


Wilton 1750
Record 3" made in England
Columbia 6"

Nice price on the 1750. What condition was your Record vise in when you got it?

 

[JZiggy]

I've amassed a ridiculous number of vises since finding this site and catching the infection from you gentlemen...

Add me to to the queue for getting that little tool and I'll add 10-12 models to the list.

Wilton 745
Wilton 450
Wilton 3.5'' (forgetting the model number)
Columbian D45
Reed 1C
Prentiss Bulldog
Desmond-Simplex #400
Walker-Turner clamp-on
and more...ugh...

You got it!

 

[exmaxima1]

Also the tradesman series are not TRUE bullet vises. Advertising them as such just creates confusion and IMHO misrepresents them. And yes I know modern wilton touts them as part of the bullet series.

Could you elaborate on why you believe this? The Tradesman has the classic round parts, the center-pull nut, and the tapered tail, so it seems to fall into the "bullet" definition.

 

[royce]

Royce, do you have any mill vises to check? Would like to see how a 6" Kurt angle lock fares. Something where holding power is critical, typically with smooth jaws none the less.

Yes, I'll check it

Royce

 

[royce]

I'm interested in adding to the list with a few. PM sent

Question on the Vise Data Base: do any of these have the lead screw TPI's listed? then adding test results as we get then might be interesting...

Outlaw,
Send me your address and I'll get it headed your way.

Royce

 

[Outlawmws]

Question on the Vise Data Base: do any of these have the lead screw TPI's listed? then adding test results as we get them might be interesting...

Dug it out and answered my own Question: No it does not have the TPI of the main screw

 

[LesserSon]

Dug it out and answered my own Question: No it does not have the TPI of the main screw

If you’re going to factor that in to the measured force, along with handle length, don’t you also need the diameter (or radius) of the screw to get actual slope, or whatever it is? What we’re not getting is applied force.

 

[Outlawmws]

Your probably right LS. I hadn't planned on full-up analysis, as too many other factors (like friction) alter that. But for rough comparisons, which was what I had in mind, I agree the Dia of the screw is a factor.

It seems like the larger the vise, the fewer TPI generally, which decreases the applied force, but they always seem to have longer handles as well...

 

[kwoswalt99]

If you’re going to factor that in to the measured force, along with handle length, don’t you also need the diameter (or radius) of the screw to get actual slope, or whatever it is? What we’re not getting is applied force.

The diameter of the screw is irrelevant, irrespective of friction.

 

[Outlawmws]

The angular pitch changes as the diameter changes, so yes it actually does.

 

[kwoswalt99]

The angular pitch changes as the diameter changes, so yes it actually does.

As the slope of the thread decreases, the distance from the center of the screw increases, so it actually doesn’t...

 

[Outlawmws]

And that changes things how?

take 2 TPI in a 1/4" bolt and you have a very steep spiral, that that same 2 TPI on a 2" bolt and there is no comparison.

 

[zkling]

Fundamental bolt torque to tension equation is expressed by the following:

Torque = Coefficient of friction x Major diameter of the screw x Tension in the joint.

Rearranged to..... Tension in the joint = Torque / (Coefficient of friction x Major diameter of the screw)

The most difficult part of the equation is the coefficient of friction. Which is where pitch also comes into play as the ramp angle changes.

The reason you see coarser pitch threads on the larger vies is due to the shear capabilities at the root of the thread. Also whey they typically use non V style threads.

 

[Outlawmws]

Those equations are all approximations. I'm not buying that a 1/2" coarse bolt applies the exact same force as a 1/2" fine thread bolt torqued to the same torque.

In a few days I'll have the pressure gauge here for some tests, I'll set that one up and we will see with real data.

 

[IdahoMan]

Can anybody identify the vise shown at the beggining of this video?

 

[gman007]

Can anybody identify the vise shown at the beggining of this video?

It is more likely to be a Chinese “wonder” vise which are copies of old American rotating combination vises such as Sawyer, Parker 958 etc, than an authentic one.

 

[LesserSon]

Setting aside the condition of the metalic surface (polish, pitting, corrosion, wear and specific alloy composition), the coefficient of friction must be largely dependent on the area of the mating surfaces. The largest factor in that is the length of thread from one end of the main nut to the other end, plus the bearing surface of the spindle head or meatball. Both of those are going to increase directly with main screw diameter (holding TPI and nut depth constant).
In practice, the TPI we see is most certainly going to decrease as screw diameter increases, because manufactuers figured this out a long time ago.
I suppose the contact suface of the bar, rod or screw enclosure (whatever means is used to keep the jaws aligned) is also a significant source of friction. Hmmm. That is probably reducable to a mostly linear measurement, as well, but independent of main screw diameter.

 

[LesserSon]

Those equations are all approximations. I'm not buying that a 1/2" coarse bolt applies the exact same force as a 1/2" fine thread bolt torqued to the same torque.

In a few days I'll have the pressure gauge here for some tests, I'll set that one up and we will see with real data.

Put a different way, for a given diameter of screw, mechanical advantage is increased with higher TPI.

 

[royce]

Royce, do you have any mill vises to check? Would like to see how a 6" Kurt angle lock fares. Something where holding power is critical, typically with smooth jaws none the less.

Zkling,
The 6” mill vise came out at 5831#
The mash measure devise is headed south now, so I won’t be able to check any more vises.

Royce

 

[kwoswalt99]

Those equations are all approximations. I'm not buying that a 1/2" coarse bolt applies the exact same force as a 1/2" fine thread bolt torqued to the same torque.

In a few days I'll have the pressure gauge here for some tests, I'll set that one up and we will see with real data.

You completely misinterpreted the point, the force is proportional to the tpi, not the diameter of the screw.

 

[kwoswalt99]

Setting aside the condition of the metalic surface (polish, pitting, corrosion, wear and specific alloy composition), the coefficient of friction must be largely dependent on the area of the mating surfaces. The largest factor in that is the length of thread from one end of the main nut to the other end, plus the bearing surface of the spindle head or meatball. Both of those are going to increase directly with main screw diameter (holding TPI and nut depth constant).
In practice, the TPI we see is most certainly going to decrease as screw diameter increases, because manufactuers figured this out a long time ago.
I suppose the contact suface of the bar, rod or screw enclosure (whatever means is used to keep the jaws aligned) is also a significant source of friction. Hmmm. That is probably reducable to a mostly linear measurement, as well, but independent of main screw diameter.

Believe it or not, the force of friction is not dependent on surface area, only force and the coefficient of friction. Coefficient of friction is constant, and doesn’t change with surface area.

 

[Outlawmws]

You completely misinterpreted the point, the force is proportional to the tpi, not the diameter of the screw.

1. Show me where those equations factor in TPI? the only significant variable is the dia of the screw.

2. That's what I said originally.

 

[Sullers]

My Wilton Bullet 9300 dated 1976, and a 3D printed Baby Bullet i printed off a while ago.

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Brooks 1970s Leg vice 50lbs 4.5" jaws

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Record 25 & Paramo 0 vices before and 12hrs later

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[jb books]

I picked up this Athol No. 1 at a garage sale. It's been brazed but I will clean it up and use it. The jaws are 1 5/8" inch wide

 

[Outlawmws]

Sullars and JB, those little vises are cool! What is the jaw size on the Paramo No. 0?