J H Williams vintage hand tools

[Jim C.]

Awesome!

Looks like you're ahead of me now.

Hey bonneyman,

I didn’t know we were racing! Thanks to your earlier post in this thread, I started collecting these wrenches. Thanks for that.

Jim C.

 

[bonneyman]

Hey bonneyman,

I didn’t know we were racing! Thanks to your earlier post in this thread, I started collecting these wrenches. Thanks for that.

Jim C.

Yeah, just joshing with ya! Glad I sparked your interest - it happened to me while scrolling through AA's section on Williams.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Picked up this Williams L-handle at the flea market this morning. Had me fooled for a second or two - because it didn't look like 1/4- or 9/32-inch drive or 3/8-inch drive - until I flipped it over and saw the VULCAN branding. Turns out it's a Safety Dog Wrench with a pinched square end (5/16" dia.) made special just for turning the safety set screw in a safety lathe dog. I have a few vintage Williams lathe dogs, but they're all non-safety types with square-head screws turned with conventional open end wrenches.

 

[bonneyman]

Picked up this Williams L-handle at the flea market this morning. Had me fooled for a second or two - because it didn't look like 1/4- or 9/32-inch drive or 3/8-inch drive - until I flipped it over and saw the VULCAN branding. Turns out it's a Safety Dog Wrench with a pinched square end (5/16" dia.) made special just for turning the safety set screw in a safety lathe dog. I have a few vintage Williams lathe dogs, but they're all non-safety types with square-head screws turned with conventional open end wrenches.

Very cool!

 

[misterbill]

Any idea what makes this Williams 725 "special" with the nice viewport in the shank?

Bill

 

[3baygarage]

I’ve never seen one like that. Does the hole look like it could turn something or possibly made for a tether? They made so many wrenches way back that are specials, particulary open ends. Often had to do with the size of the openings being a non catalog size combo. Anything custom alteration like thick, thin, single end, the shape,bends, maybe finish etc. that were not catalog were ordered special. They made a lot of custom tools.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Yeah, Williams really liked that term. I think I have a few wrenches with that on it, and from way different eras. I know for sure I have a Williams 723 with the identical logo (only the < W > / U.S.A.) on the face of the major jaw, and marked "SPECIAL" on the face of the minor jaw opposite the logo. It's neither a Superior, like yours, or a Superrench, though, and, it doesn't have the ISN on it anywhere. Just the sizes on the flip side. As you may recall, I used to have a complete set of those, shown in the DOE thread a long time ago, linked here, and I am convinced they were military and WWII. I am thinking yours could be too, although I don’t think that's what the SPECIAL refers to, and the heads on that wrench seem quite large.

I'll go through my Williams stash for similars and post photos later.

EDIT: As for the "viewport" (in agreement with 3bay, and as I said on GS thread, perhaps for turning something, dual using the wrench like a handle?), that looks user milled to me, not factory, and not the reason for the "SPECIAL.".

 

[misterbill]

You may be right, Lugz/3bay. The scratches on the shank look like they could be from some sort of clamp. I could imagine some sort of square shaft threaded on the end with a nut/clamp to hold it down.

 

[d42jeep]

I think I remember something about Williams marking wrenches "special" when they either didn't conform to the ISN classification or they weren't a catalog item. These aren't "special" but the black one will be going to misterbill's collection.
-Don

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Clearly not the case with this wrench, Don. It has an ISN forged on its shank in the customary position for a carbon steel Superior line DOE, and a 725 is listed in every catalog.

 

[d42jeep]

Besides the obvious hole, does it look maybe a little shorter than an average 25? It looks as short as this 723
-Don

 

[Private Lugnutz]

It's not a 25 (1/2 x 19/32), Don; it's a 725 (7/16 x 1/2). But close, so its length should be close. I think it looks 30s-ish to me, the clunkiness contributing to it looking short.

Are the sizes on the flip side, Bill? Have you measured the openings? Maybe it's marked 725 but has different sizes? I seem to recall at least one Williams SPECIAL doing that.

 

[3baygarage]

I’ve seen probably hundreds of Williams Special marked wrenches at estate sales, fleas, etc.. Some sockets and occasional ratchet. Cool thing is you never know what’s out there.

These were on Ebay and had to get them for the unusual factor. Each has a 3/4” male end, but no detent ball. Being 1/4” and 3/8” drive would make them quite interesting used as an adapter.

Might be for a female drain plug that was relatively easy to remove. Caterpillar has a 3/4 drain plug socket but it’s 1/2” dr..

 

[misterbill]

Length is correct according to 1943 catalog I have. There are no markings on the other side. I'll check them when I can find my micrometer. EDIT: I held the "9/16" end up next to the tape measure and it's between 11/16 and 3/4. The 1/2 end is correct.

Bill

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Here are two (2) Williams "SPECIAL" wrenches that I was able to find off the top of my head.

Pics 1, 2, & 3 show a "728" (9/16 x 3/4") carbon steel Superior DOE wrench with a script Williams FORGED < W > U.S.A. logo, black enamel shank, and polished faces (haha! okay, not very polished right now...). You can see the "SPECIAL" mark in the middle of the top side shank. If I had to guess why this one was special it would be the length! That sucker is 12 inches long. Normal length: 7 inches.

Pics 4, 5, 6, & 7 show the 3/8 x 7/16 DOE wrench I was describing above, with a < W > U.S.A. logo with no ISN marking. You can see the "SPECIAL" marking on the top side opposite face from the logo. Nothing is out of the ordinary on this one, but as I said it's not either a Superrench or a Superior, and it has that economy look if you know what I mean. And that might just be it.

I mic'd the openings on both wrenches and they are spot on for their ISN's.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I also pulled out a script Williams FORGED < W > U.S.A. ALLOY V Superrench 1725 (you know that the 725 is a Dodge on-board toolkit wrench size, right?), to compare your Superior 725 with, and just for the heck of it, an older, clunkier script Williams MADE < W > U.S.A. "25" carbon steel Superior. While this is a Jeep wrench size, this is not a WWII wrench, illustrating the dangers in identifying Williams WWII wrenches by the logo alone. They were using that logo well before WWII.

 

[honza.vosalik]

I saw a Williams Superwrench 1173 (1 1/4") at a sale. Asking price $8. Cool wrenches, just wish they had a whole set, so I passed.

 

[d42jeep]

I found these two combo Superrenches at an estate sale yesterday. Unfortunately the face had been ground down on the smaller one.
-Don

 

[Oldtuleguy]

I’ve seen probably hundreds of Williams Special marked wrenches at estate sales, fleas, etc.. Some sockets and occasional ratchet. Cool thing is you never know what’s out there.

These were on Ebay and had to get them for the unusual factor. Each has a 3/4” male end, but no detent ball. Being 1/4” and 3/8” drive would make them quite interesting used as an adapter.

Might be for a female drain plug that was relatively easy to remove. Caterpillar has a 3/4 drain plug socket but it’s 1/2” dr..

Those are very odd. No friction ball so probably not socket adapter.

 

[misterbill]

Today's find was "special" in its own way. I have no practical use for it (other than as a novelty), but I picked up this two foot long Williams 8041 1-5/8 x 1-7/16 DBE and S-52 ratchet. At six pounds maybe my daughter can use it in the classroom to get her students attention.

Bill

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Nice find, Bill! That's a whopper! (And it would make a good whapper, too! )

I've got some big Williams box end wrenches. You've got me beat on length with that 8041, but I've got you beat on opening sizes. And I can do some double-duty on the "SPECIAL" topic, too.

See Pic 1 for a group shot. They're all WWII script logo FORGED < W > U.S.A.

Top to bottom:

- Williams SUPERRENCH ALLOY V No. 1987 DBE 1-5/16 x 1-1/2
- Williams SUPERRENCH ALLOY No. 7039 DBE "SPECIAL" 1-5/16 (should be 1-7/16, see Pic 3) x 1-1/4
- Williams SUPERRENCH ALLOY No. 7039 DBE "SPECIAL" 1-5/16 (ditto) x 1-1/4
- Williams SUPERRENCH ALLOY No. 7039 DBE 1-7/16 x 1-1/4
- Williams SUPERRENCH ALLOY No. 8911 Structural 1-13/16

I've never seen the 1987 in a catalog. The profile on that wrench is amazing for how big the openings are. See Pic 5 for a comparison shot.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I did pick up a Williams obstruction wrench at the flea market yesterday. It's a CHRO-MOLY PAT PENDNG 2028-S. I try to ****** up obstruction or right angle wrenches whenever I can, because they're so uncommon. Tough to collect. I probably have a dozen or so, but mixed brands. I think this might be my first ever Williams. I'd have to check. I haven't been storing them together as a type.

Shown with a ho-hum 731-A carbon steel Superior I also picked up at the flea yesterday.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I found a couple more since I last posted a few months ago. These wrenches are tough to find!

Amen, Jim! I remember us having a conversation about right angle wrenches before, so I went looking for it, and it was on the DOE thread regarding Herbrand. I recall I had a 9/16 that you didn't need. But I forgot you had an even bigger Williams set going! I just checked my stash and this IS my first Williams obstruction wrench, as I guessed above. If you need a 2028-S, just shoot me a PM. The quicker I get rid of this, the faster I'll get rid of another unneeded collection quest! HAHA. (Note that it's a Chro-Moly, if composition matters to your collection.)

 

[bonneyman]

I did pick up a Williams obstruction wrench at the flea market yesterday. It's a CHRO-MOLY PAT PENDNG 2028-S. I try to ****** up obstruction or right angle wrenches whenever I can, because they're so uncommon. Tough to collect. I probably have a dozen or so, but mixed brands. I think this might be my first ever Williams. I'd have to check. I haven't been storing them together as a type.

Shown with a ho-hum 731-A carbon steel Superior I also picked up at the flea yesterday.

Your Williams wrench looks to be in good shape, Lugz. The broaching looks nice and crisp.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Nary a burr on either one of them!

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I just got a package from Tin Medic that represented a HUGE upgrade to my Williams Bantam set, which is shaping up to be the biggest they sold (Set No 7-A).

To that end, I just updated my 'WILLIAMS WANTED' ad, linked here, and also in my signature block.

The new items in the set include a B-30 Offset (or L-) Handle, a short B-108 extension, and the F-15 speeder, among a number of deep and extra deep sockets and a swivel.

As you can see, what I really need is a box!

The finish and markings are now a mix of 40's steel/cad and script logo and late 40's chrome and U.S.A. logo, I am thinking of it as a veteran's take-home set that was added to post-war, and I am not as stuck on finding a pre-1947 box (label located dead center under the lid with script Williams logo), coming to the hard reality that ANY box will do at this point, included a post-1947 box (label to the right bottom under the lid with modern 3D italics Williams logo).

I just took some new photos with the new pieces for the ad update, so I thought I would share them here, too.

I don't know when Williams added the BFE-8 flexible extension, but I have one of those, too. Very handy drive handle!

 

[gpw_42]

Nice find, Bill! That's a whopper! (And it would make a good whapper, too! )

I've got some big Williams box end wrenches. You've got me beat on length with that 8041, but I've got you beat on opening sizes. And I can do some double-duty on the "SPECIAL" topic, too.

See Pic 1 for a group shot. They're all WWII script logo FORGED < W > U.S.A.

Top to bottom:

- Williams SUPERRENCH ALLOY V No. 1987 DBE 1-5/16 x 1-1/2
- Williams SUPERRENCH ALLOY No. 7039 DBE "SPECIAL" 1-5/16 (should be 1-7/16, see Pic 3) x 1-1/4
- Williams SUPERRENCH ALLOY No. 7039 DBE "SPECIAL" 1-5/16 (ditto) x 1-1/4
- Williams SUPERRENCH ALLOY No. 7039 DBE 1-7/16 x 1-1/4
- Williams SUPERRENCH ALLOY No. 8911 Structural 1-13/16
.

Now you've gotten to battleship-sized DBEs, Lugz! And guessing by the gray paint, those may well have come from the USN...or not. Those huge old wrenches are amazing to look at; I always just hope that there was never much need to USE them on any of those ships.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Now you've gotten to battleship-sized DBEs, Lugz! And guessing by the gray paint, those may well have come from the USN...or not. Those huge old wrenches are amazing to look at; I always just hope that there was never much need to USE them on any of those ships.

I've always considered them Navy. I have DOE's with the same finish, both Williams and Vlchek.

Good point on the need. If you were turning a bolt with a 1-13/16" head, it was something big and important! The only bigger wrenches I have seen, categorically, are the ones that the sandhogs used on the Lincoln, Holland, and Queens-Midtown tunnels.

 

[Jim C.]

Amen, Jim! I remember us having a conversation about right angle wrenches before, so I went looking for it, and it was on the DOE thread regarding Herbrand. I recall I had a 9/16 that you didn't need. But I forgot you had an even bigger Williams set going! I just checked my stash and this IS my first Williams obstruction wrench, as I guessed above. If you need a 2028-S, just shoot me a PM. The quicker I get rid of this, the faster I'll get rid of another unneeded collection quest! HAHA. (Note that it's a Chro-Moly, if composition matters to your collection.)

Hey Lugz,

You’re not kidding! Those obstruction wrenches are tough to find. I got hooked on them after seeing an earlier bonneyman post. That lead me to going after the Herbrand, Indestro, and Duro Chrome sets as well.......none of the sets are completed as of yet, and I look everyday on eBay. There’s so many in that Williams set (more the 30 SAE and a dozen or so Whitworth and possibly some metric sizes), I’m not sure I’ll ever complete it. A little while back I found a Williams obstruction wrench with a “SPECIAL” stamp on it. So who really knows how many are in that set? Nice find on your 2028S wrench. I have it, but thanks for the offer. If you’re looking to give it a good home, I’m willing to buy it, or possibly trade you for it. Let me know. Thanks.

Jim C.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

...none of the sets are completed as of yet, and I look everyday on eBay.

I don't shop on eBay, but I live in an area with a lot of vintage tools floating around, and these are all I've managed to find in the wild. (See pic below.) Top to bottom is a Plomb midget obstruction wrench, the Herbrand you've seen before, a pair of Bonney, the Williams I just found, and a military wrench with a Federal Stock Number that I am positive was made by Williams.

Nice find on your 2028S wrench. I have it, but thanks for the offer. If you’re looking to give it a good home, I’m willing to buy it, or possibly trade you for it. Let me know. Thanks.

I'm keen on the Bonney style, if you have any to trade, or if you have any with an FSN (41-W-xxxx). Otherwise, I'll probably just hang onto it for now.

 

[Jim C.]

Hey Lugz,

I’m sorry I don’t have any Bonney obstruction wrenches. There was a time I thought about starting that set too, but decided against it. I’m having enough trouble finishing the sets I have going now. Good luck putting that Bonney set together. Do you know how many wrenches are in the set?

Also, can you post a few pictures of that federal stock number wrench? It does look like a Williams wrench.

Jim C.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

In the 40's (my niche), the set of obstruction wrenches (they called them 'Right Angle Wrenches') that Bonney sold in a leatherette roll or a cardboard box - Set No 40 - had five (5) in the same sizes as the most common DOE engineers' wrench set: 723, 25, 27C, 28S, and 731A. But they made a total of thirty-four (34) Right Angle Wrenches between 5/16" and 1". (Exactly the same as Williams, btw, which also sold the same 5-wrench set - No. 2040 - also in a leatherette roll or cardboard box.)

Here are some more photos of the 41-W-642-25. I suppose it could also be Armstrong-Blackhawk. Their obstruction wrenches were the same 75* x 75* angles on the same side of the shank. I am convinced that Armstrong and Williams had something going on (lots of tools with similar designs, and same part numbers), and Armstrong may have extended that to Blackhawk in their joint ventures.

As you may or may not know, I have a lot of technical manuals from WWII, Army and Navy, and this wrench is not listed. The 41-W-642-** wrenches that ARE listed are all brake adjusting related. That makes sense to me, since that was one of the uses for angle wrenches.

EDIT: This wrench came from Texas c/o RagTopTA.

 

[Jim C.]

Thanks for the pictures Lugz. Are there no sizes stamped on the wrench, or are they just stamped lightly? Looking at it next to the Williams wrench, now I’m not so sure it was made by Williams. Interesting that you mentioned the Blackhawk obstruction wrenches. Those do remind a lot of the Williams wrenches.

Jim C.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

No sizes, Jim. That is consistent with the no-frills characteristics of many military contract wrenches. The finish is economical, too. It's not rough, but they didn't grind down the die mold ridges on the edges and they didn't polish it. The openings are 15/16" x 3/4".

 

[Username already in use]

Lugz, I thought I had you covered, but it looks like this 11/16" is a slightly different make. No part number. Only the B 11/16 and diamond W are shown on the socket.
That socket and several others like it came in the box. Unmarked as far as I can tell.
Let me know if you're interested in any of it.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Very interesting, Unaiu!! If you've shown that before somewhere, I missed it.

My hunch is it may be some kind of transitional Williams set and box, between WWII and 1947. Or just some kind of later Williams box for some basic Bantam set. Initially I was going to say it wasn't Williams at all, because the lids on the wartime Williams boxes don't appear to have any hardware for a handle. And they don't have clasps. As far as I can tell, they were more or less like bigger version of a midget box, with two pressure clips, and no handle. See Pic 1.

But then I looked at the 1947-50's Bantam boxes again. Lo and behold, they had two clasps, and it looks like they had a handle affixed to the lid with four rivets in a rectangular pattern, just like on your box! I'm not sure what that plate is on yours - almost looks like a repair maybe. And your box doesn't have any partitions for sockets, deep sockets, swivels, etc. But again, it may be for a more basic set with no extras, Just basic sockets and handles. See Pic 2.

Maybe 3bay will chime in. Or someone who has one or more of the boxes. They are relatively rare, though. The midget boxes turn up with more frequency.

If you don't mind holding the box and the 11/16" socket (not indefinitely, just for awhile longer...), I may take it off your hands if worse comes to worse and I come up empty on a more appropriate option. I AM convinced it's Williams now. Just not the one I am looking for.

Thanks for the effort!

 

[Username already in use]

I had assumed the plate under the handle was for reinforcement. I should try to remove the screws to see if there's a remnant of label under there.
The diamond W marking on the sockets reminded me of the DOEs we see with only that marking. These sockets are interesting because there's a bit of a shallow knurl around the base which I haven't seen on any other Williams sockets.
I'll hang onto them for you. Just let me know what you decide.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I had assumed the plate under the handle was for reinforcement. I should try to remove the screws to see if there's a remnant of label under there.

Now I am even more curious!

The diamond W marking on the sockets reminded me of the DOEs we see with only that marking. These sockets are interesting because there's a bit of a shallow knurl around the base which I haven't seen on any other Williams sockets.

Agreed, and me neither.

I'll hang onto them for you. Just let me know what you decide.

Thanks.

 

[3baygarage]

If you check out posts 37 and 51, the hardware pretty much looks right. Not sure why the plate, maybe reinforcement as UN said.

The 11/16 socket is from the set with just a diamond W on every item. I’m not sure when those came out.

It’s a shame but so many Williams socket boxes I ran into in NY were just obliterated by rust. Anything with identifiable markings in any brand is better than nothing to keep the hobby alive!

 

[Private Lugnutz]

If you check out posts 37 and 51, the hardware pretty much looks right.

Agreed. The set in #37 is older, and the set and box in #51 is for 1/2-inch drive, but both definitely help confirm Unaiu's as Williams, probably late 40's or 50's though. (The 40's Williams Bantam boxes had no latches or handle.) If I can't find one soon, I may take it and get a decal made. The problem is I would want the 40's decal, and it would have to go right where that plate is.