Hvac bs?

[Kaizen]

I had another thread about starting my own oil burner maintenance. Part of that
Plan was to get a pro with a combustion analyzer to make sure I was at a good starting point. As the winter set in quicker then expected I had to take this guy. After I explained I had cleaned it all and just needed a combustion test he quotes me 800 bucks. I got him down to 420 and had him do a nozzle and internal filter change. Ridiculous right? Had no choice.

Anyway he said my draft after I fixed my chimney was too much. It’s a seven inch pipe going into an unlined 8x8 chimney. He said this will **** the fire out and hurt efficiency? Bs?
Also my smoke test was almost zero. Very clean. He said it should be a little dirty or it hits the back of the furnace?? Thought that was air control?
Third he told me my clean burning boiler needed to be replaced to the tune of 13k even though it had an 84 percent efficiency test and the sticker was max of 86. If maintained properly why does efficiency go down?


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[Jim greengo]

Time to get a 2nd opinion.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

WTF. I get all that done on my boiler every year for about $120.00 and that includes 24/7 service including labor and parts. It also covers me for up to $500,000.00 for oil spill cleanup if my tank ever leaks.

You need to get another quote.

Tommy

 

[Jackfre]

Send me a pm with your contact info. I am on a private oil equipment site. I will forward to the moderator and find someone who is a hand for you.

 

[yeldogt]

WTF. I get all that done on my boiler every year for about $120.00 and that includes 24/7 service including labor and parts. It also covers me for up to $500,000.00 for oil spill cleanup if my tank ever leaks.

You need to get another quote.

Tommy

That's cheap ... my place in PA w/oil was $299 for each furnace and $199 for the hot water. No tank coverage ... and I shopped around.


OP: You can have too much draft .. most have the damper (but not all of them). There is actually a tight window that needs to be hit for efficiency

 

[Kaizen]

Maybe I should clarify. I started doing my own maintenance this year as I found some large safety issues and questionable work. I’ve used my oil supplier and they clean it once a year for about 150-200. No guarantees. Their idea of clean is not mine. So I bought a draft tool and a smoke test. I will be buying the combustion analyzer in spring. I’ve taught myself over the last few months and am confident in my ability. This guy is a new company I tried as everyone else was booked and it was getting cold. The **** he was saying made no sense to me and some of it was just plain wrong. No flippen way would I replace this boiler. Maybe if the pump was going but no way is it near death.

So my questions were more about him blowing smoke up my azz to scare me and get me to spend more. Example his first quote for 800 included blowing out the pipes. Wtf who said anything about that? Tried to back up the “need” claiming an air pocket etc etc. so the few items like too much draft and the smoke needing to be not zero stuck with me and was just wondering if it makes sense


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[Kaizen]

That's cheap ... my place in PA w/oil was $299 for each furnace and $199 for the hot water. No tank coverage ... and I shopped around.





OP: You can have too much draft .. most have the damper (but not all of them). There is actually a tight window that needs to be hit for efficiency

He suggested putting a cap on the chimney and putting in a smaller liner. A damper sounds like an easier solution. Does not have it now.


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[66cj225]

Is the draft breaker on the stack operating correctly? That device in conjunction with the input air adjustment determine how much air flows in the combustion chamber.

 

[Kaizen]

Is the draft breaker on the stack operating correctly? That device in conjunction with the input air adjustment determine how much air flows in the combustion chamber.

Yes and I tested it in the combustion chamber with good levels. He tested in the stack before the draft door and aid it was 22 while the chamber is 4. Basically he is saying I built my chimney so well it’s sucking the gas out too fast. Sounds strange to me. I know too small and too large a chimney can affect draft adversely but never heard off too much draft


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[Caddybill]

so the few items like too much draft and the smoke needing to be not zero stuck with me and was just wondering if it makes sense


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some guy's set up burners with a "trace" of smoke. They set at 0 then back off on the air a little.
You can have too much draft. set for -.04 at the breech and -.02 over fire. Unless manufacturer specifies other.

 

[Kaizen]

some guy's set up burners with a "trace" of smoke. They set at 0 then back off on the air a little.

You can have too much draft. set for -.04 at the breech and -.02 over fire. Unless manufacturer specifies other.

Thanks. What is the affect of too much draft? Loss of efficiency?


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[Caddybill]

Thanks. What is the affect of too much draft? Loss of efficiency?


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too much draft can pull the flame off the retention head. can also raise flue gas temps.

 

[yeldogt]

Thanks. What is the affect of too much draft? Loss of efficiency?


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It's like putting a fan in front of a fire -- blowing on a gas flame. It distorts the flame .. you want the heat of the flame to be the catalyst.

My older furnace had the weighted damper -- my newer and the oil fired water tank did not. The newer unit had baffles and tubes that must have monitored the draft.

 

[bobbyjean]

kaizen- i will do it for 12.5...sounds high but without seeing job,boiler size..
sounds like the guy made some valid observations....how old is the barometric damper? i find them faulty many time's...a fairly cheap fix that could save you big dollars...
is it a cast iron boiler? does it leak,firebox liner condition...original burner

 

[Kaizen]

kaizen- i will do it for 12.5...sounds high but without seeing job,boiler size..

sounds like the guy made some valid observations....how old is the barometric damper? i find them faulty many time's...a fairly cheap fix that could save you big dollars...

is it a cast iron boiler? does it leak,firebox liner condition...original burner

Hell it only costs a couple grand. I could do it myself if it were dying. In my eyes this unit is fine. I just cleaned it and replaced seals. Liner looks fine. Cast iron boiler. Damper is working fine from what I see. This guy was up selling me and then gets an 84 efficiency reading out of original 86. Pump pressure is fine. He wanted 400 bucks to clean my pipes. Wtf people pay for this? Just seemed sketchy and way overpriced at 200 per hour.


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[66cj225]

If you are still hung up on this too much draft thing, there's a couple of things you can mess with. You built the chimney, so you can restrict it too. Maybe set a patio block on top with a couple of brick spacers or a steel plate with the correct area (inches squared) cut into the center of it set on top of the flue. You wouldn't be the first one to use two draft breakers..........or outside air and an additional draft breaker. It isn't that hard to regulate. Personally, I think the tech was talking without thinking.

 

[Firebrick43]

I am coming up on commissioning my system soon needing someone with a combustion analyzer as well to set the burner.

I have thought about just purchasing an anylyzer and doing it myself and then selling it for 100$ less on eBay? A testo 310 is something like 550$ it would still be cheaper than a service call.

Plus nearly everyone I have talked to recently has there servicing tech trying to upselling hard or plain out lying such as parts no longer available and had a cracked heat exchanger. That guy (who was going to work on my aunts furnace) I nearly castrated him but just threw him out instead. Called the one and only guy whom has a stellar reputation around here(unfortunately he's nearly 75 and only works on older stuff, ) and he fixed it for 150$, no problems getting the parts either.

 

[Kaizen]

If you are still hung up on this too much draft thing, there's a couple of things you can mess with. You built the chimney, so you can restrict it too. Maybe set a patio block on top with a couple of brick spacers or a steel plate with the correct area (inches squared) cut into the center of it set on top of the flue. You wouldn't be the first one to use two draft breakers..........or outside air and an additional draft breaker. It isn't that hard to regulate. Personally, I think the tech was talking without thinking.

I built the chimney using a 50 foot lift which was very expensive. So i can't access the top at this time. Even at the roof line its too tall to reach to put on a cover or install a liner. I will be doing it in the future but the length was longer then what i could get during the rental period so will have to come back to it.

 

[Kaizen]

I am coming up on commissioning my system soon needing someone with a combustion analyzer as well to set the burner.

I have thought about just purchasing an anylyzer and doing it myself and then selling it for 100$ less on eBay? A testo 310 is something like 550$ it would still be cheaper than a service call.

Plus nearly everyone I have talked to recently has there servicing tech trying to upselling hard or plain out lying such as parts no longer available and had a cracked heat exchanger. That guy (who was going to work on my aunts furnace) I nearly castrated and threw out. Called the one and only guy whom has a stellar reputation around here(unfortunately he's nearly 75 and only works on older stuff, ) and he fixed it for 150$, no problems getting the parts either.

i literally wanted this guy to do 20 min of testing and adjustments. If i knew what i had to pay i would have just bought the tester. I thought i could wait till spring and this guy would only be 100 bucks. cold came on fast and i was stuck. Changed to a local family run oil company that charges 56 bucks an hour. I'll be getting a tester and fine tuning the unit as my time is free.
If i have to spend 13k i'll be going to the new mitsubishi split units. I hate oil and propane is even more expensive. Ya'll with natural gas are lucky bastards.

 

[66cj225]

I went back through your history looking for reason for the stressed responses; after seeing an offset chimney, you have reason. A fine tune on the burner is nice but in a 1904 house, you should assume things are going to change. Removing the unused device on the chimney and permanently blocking its chimney access will eliminate its vortec pull on the oil burner.

 

[Kaizen]

I went back through your history looking for reason for the stressed responses; after seeing an offset chimney, you have reason. A fine tune on the burner is nice but in a 1904 house, you should assume things are going to change. Removing the unused device on the chimney and permanently blocking its chimney access will eliminate its vortec pull on the oil burner.

I’m not stressed. It’s working fine. I appreciate your input. The chimney is at least in a safe state now. I will be putting a cap on in the spring to slow it down.


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[bonneyman]

Can't speak directly to oil service - as I don't work on oil heat - but the bs you described is real, widespread, and only getting worse. Worked a couple of temporary gigs earlier this year, and the business practices and prices were deplorable. And they do it without a flinch of conscience! Service is just to get data to convince you to buy a new system down the road a few years, repairs are priced outrageous so you do an install instead, maintenance agreements are just invitations for them to come in and find a bunch of stuff wrong to run up the bill. Not every single company is this way, but you gotta search long and hard to find an honest one.

And from what my buddies tell me it's the same everywhere now. I've started gathering up plumbing tools, as the last time I called a plumber it was a total soak the wallet. And a call to the owner - who I used to work with! - was nothing but so sad, too bad. So I'll gonna start doing my own plumbing maintenance (and appliances too!)

 

[Kaizen]

Can't speak directly to oil service - as I don't work on oil heat - but the bs you described is real, widespread, and only getting worse. Worked a couple of temporary gigs earlier this year, and the business practices and prices were deplorable. And they do it without a flinch of conscience! Service is just to get data to convince you to buy a new system down the road a few years, repairs are priced outrageous so you do an install instead, maintenance agreements are just invitations for them to come in and find a bunch of stuff wrong to run up the bill. Not every single company is this way, but you gotta search long and hard to find an honest one.

And from what my buddies tell me it's the same everywhere now. I've started gathering up plumbing tools, as the last time I called a plumber it was a total soak the wallet. And a call to the owner - who I used to work with! - was nothing but so sad, too bad. So I'll gonna start doing my own plumbing maintenance (and appliances too!)

any idea why the trend? reminds me of the news sting's on mechanics fixing stuff that they broke when inspecting a car. cost of business going that far up that they need to try and **** customers? just strange business to me and these are reputable places. not fly by night places.

 

[aunsafe2015]

any idea why the trend? reminds me of the news sting's on mechanics fixing stuff that they broke when inspecting a car. cost of business going that far up that they need to try and **** customers? just strange business to me and these are reputable places. not fly by night places.

Just to chime in, I recently had a plumber quote me a $350 flat fee labor only to change an under sink garbage disposal.

For that price, I decided I would try to do it myself. It took all of 30 minutes and it's been working fine for 6 months now. I had no idea how easy it was otherwise I would not have even asked for the quote.

I understand that contractors have insurance, a truck, tools, etc. But given that it only took me about 30 minutes after I watched some YouTube videos, I bet an experienced plumber could do it in less. $350 seems to high for that, even with all the overhead.

 

[Caddybill]

I am a heating service tech and Ive been told it cost's the company I work for almost $200 for me to show up at a house and ring the bell.

 

[Kaizen]

I am a heating service tech and Ive been told it cost's the company I work for almost $200 for me to show up at a house and ring the bell.

I would be skeptical but it could be proven out. Health insurance I’m sure is part of the factor. Liability insurance. Auto insurance. Fleet maintenance etc etc. I’m sure you don’t get paid 100 an hour. But they are offset with the oil they sell if it’s a supplier.
Then you have my new company charging 65 per hour. If they can do that I don’t understand why all can’t. A good recession will change this supply and demand model quickly


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[Kaizen]

Just to chime in, I recently had a plumber quote me a $350 flat fee labor only to change an under sink garbage disposal.

For that price, I decided I would try to do it myself. It took all of 30 minutes and it's been working fine for 6 months now. I had no idea how easy it was otherwise I would not have even asked for the quote.

I understand that contractors have insurance, a truck, tools, etc. But given that it only took me about 30 minutes after I watched some YouTube videos, I bet an experienced plumber could do it in less. $350 seems to high for that, even with all the overhead.

For guys with just a little mechanical ability most things are not hard to do. Sure a professional on most jobs will have a better end product on complicated things but to save a grand I’m fine with acceptable. In my case the work I found was horrible,Sloppy, and half assed. That is what convinced me to do my own maintenance on the heat and call a pro if needed.




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[Firebrick43]

I actually can stomach and understand it cost 200$ to ring the bell. Especially where I live being 45 min from a town.

The bs part is showing up, and lying to the HO (especially if it's a woman) telling them it has a cracked HX and they will install a new 80k btu 96% furnace for the paltry sum of 10k. But it comes with a "lifetime warranty" when the HO balks, however written in the contract only if you schedule thier annual 350$ maintenance.

I understand there are times were there is a lull and they don't work. I understand selling equipment for double their wholesale price. But why add another 2 or 3 k for a days labor on a simple replacement? The majority(notice I did not say all) are ending up worse than used car salesman now.

One slick talker around here convinced dozens of neighbors that air source heat pumps were the way to go and would save them thousands. After a few sub zero winters another chap, which somehow "had" a list of all those installations and went around and sold them new lp furnaces(set up as a 2 stage system), which they had just a few years before.

 

[danski0224]

I’m not stressed. It’s working fine. I appreciate your input. The chimney is at least in a safe state now. I will be putting a cap on in the spring to slow it down.


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Wrong.

A properly sized barometric damper will regulate the draft. Of course, one needs the tools and knowledge to do so.

Arbitrarily blocking off part of the flue opening is not the answer.

 

[Kaizen]

Wrong.



A properly sized barometric damper will regulate the draft. Of course, one needs the tools and knowledge to do so.



Arbitrarily blocking off part of the flue opening is not the answer.

Well this is what the “professional” told me to do. I have a draft tool and thought it was good at the firebox at -4 but he said the stack was way off. Maybe he was trying to sell me a chimney too. Thought the dampers main job was to let cold air in to mix with the hot not reduce actual airflow?


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[danski0224]

The barometric damper regulates combustion air through the appliance.

Above the barometric, yes, air is mixed, to allow the chimney to pull the remainder.

Flue temperature above the barometric will be warmer than the same setup, minus barometric, through an unregulated draft diverter.

Your "professional" is wrong.

 

[66cj225]

Wrong.

A properly sized barometric damper will regulate the draft. Of course, one needs the tools and knowledge to do so.

Arbitrarily blocking off part of the flue opening is not the answer.

If you read some of the ops history of the threads he started, he has pictures of the chimney and its rebuild. In that thread, he reveals the chimney was restricted to 2x8 by debris. Assuming his intended sizing is greater, where are you taking the discussion?

 

[danski0224]

The draft seen by the combustion appliance will be properly controlled by a properly sized and installed barometric damper.

That is the issue at hand here.

Assuming that the chimney is suitable for use, how it works in real time will vary as parameters like wind speed and temperature change. The damper will keep the draft seen by the appliance in check under dynamic conditions.

I do not know if the chimney is sized correctly now. That should have been addressed when it was repaired. In any event, the tables are established off of steady state conditions and assumptions. The draft would still need to be checked with the proper tools, and would probably need to be regulated with a damper.

I have yet to see the proper amount of draft from a B vent flue, even installed properly per manufacturer tables. The material is different, but I bet the same properties happen in masonry flues.

 

[Kaizen]

I rebuilt twelve feet of this chimney. It is 8x8 internal size. It previously was only about 2x8 at the choke point. So the difference in air flow was primary reason I wanted a pro to make sure I was close. I had it at 4 in the firebox using the damper and air inlet. He claimed the stack was at 20. I will have to check again and see if he was just bs’n or if it really is that high.
The stack is 7inch round and I think the manufacturer called for at least six inch. Right now the damper pretty much runs wide open after he messed with it.


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[66cj225]

I do not know if the chimney is sized correctly now. That should have been addressed when it was repaired. In any event, the tables are established off of steady state conditions and assumptions. The draft would still need to be checked with the proper tools, and would probably need to be regulated with a damper.

Here's the info present by the op and the calculated area:

8x8 = 64 squared inches
6 in dia minimum by manufacturer = 28.25 sq in
7 in dia existing stack pipe = 38.5 sq in
Past restriction in offset chimney 2 x 8 = 16 sq in

If the chimney were to be lined I don't think anyone would try to put an eight inch dia down a 8 x 8 square chimney; it would be smaller to allow for the mortar goober on the inside of the brick.

Expressed another way: the old chimney was restricted to 25% of its available area.

 

[danski0224]

The chimney size does not matter. I don't care what size the chimney is now, or what size it was before. The only thing that does matter is whether or not the chimney is sound and constructed correctly for the fuel being used.

The old chimney was apparently unsound and not constructed correctly. I'm not going to bother trying to find the thread, because it doesn't matter. The old chimney still required something to regulate the draft to the heating equipment, and that something still needed to be installed and set up properly.

The new chimney is different, and now the previous draft regulator will need to be reset correctly, or maybe a different size.

Regulating the draft does matter.

Shoving a liner into the OP's chimney in an attempt to change the draft still does not regulate it.

Regulating the draft is the job of a barometric damper, which needs to be sized, installed and adjusted properly.

A good starting point is the I&O manual for the heating equipment in question. Training and the proper tools takes one outside of the conditions provided for in the manual, when needed. Equipment manufacturers always provide information on how to properly install the equipment in the I&O manual (AKA kneepads, because no one reads it). If you are in the USA, the manual will be in English. If you are in Canada, it may be available in French. Any special tools or measurements will be covered in the writeup.

Here is another article: https://www.pmengineer.com/articles/90570-the-misunderstood-barometric-damper

If someone isn't certified for heating equipment combustion analysis, then don't be posting inaccurate info.

That is the problem with this forum.

Too many that don't know what they are doing, posting BS. Others too cheap to hire (or find) a pro, looking for quickie solutions.

And in many instances, the HVAC industry ***** because there is an emphasis on so-called selling technicians that push customers to upgrades to get bonuses/spiffs- and they don't know how to fix the stuff.

Part of me wishes that there was some sort of licensing requirements for HVAC repair/installation folks. Something that goes beyond a city fee that merely establishes whether or not the business entity has insurance.